Author Topic: Arkos Tracker  (Read 38513 times)

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Offline db6128

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #50 on: 14:16, 11 December 12 »
So, I was just reading Demoniak 4 : P As well as enjoying your tutorials about rasters and probably going to try them later (even though I think they’re hugely overused, everyone has to know how, right? :)), I also thought the music was great, in both its composition and sound (i.e. technical quality). This has made me very keen to try StArkos, since I’d like to sequence a song or two of my own on the CPC but am baffled enough by tracking in general that I don’t think it would be ideal to try to learn it first on the CPC. So, thanks! Even if I wasn’t planning to make music, I’d still appreciate the fact that it’s available and actively developed. And hopefully I’ll have a song to post within a week or two. :D
[The owner of one of the few existing cartridges of Chase HQ 2] mentioned to me that unless someone could find a way to guarantee the code wouldn't be duplicated to anyone else, he wouldn't be interested.
Did he also say things like "My treasureeeeee" and is he a little grey guy?

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #51 on: 14:25, 11 December 12 »
Now I tried:

winetricks corefonts
winetricks tahoma

still it doesn't find the fonts  :laugh:

I give up for now.
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Offline SyX

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #52 on: 20:43, 11 December 12 »
arnoldemu , i'm using this tools under mono in my Debian without problems, the packages that i have installed are:
Code: [Select]
libmono-accessibility2.0-cil               - Mono Accessibility library (for CLI 2.0)           
libmono-corlib2.0-cil                      - Mono core library (for CLI 2.0)                     
libmono-corlib4.0-cil                      - Mono core library (for CLI 4.0)                     
libmono-data-tds2.0-cil                    - Mono Data Library (for CLI 2.0)                     
libmono-i18n-west2.0-cil                   - Mono I18N.West library (for CLI 2.0)               
libmono-i18n-west4.0-cil                   - Mono I18N.West library (for CLI 4.0)               
libmono-i18n4.0-cil                        - Mono I18N base library (for CLI 4.0)               
libmono-messaging2.0-cil                   - Mono Messaging library (for CLI 2.0)               
libmono-posix2.0-cil                       - Mono.Posix library (for CLI 2.0)                   
libmono-security2.0-cil                    - Mono Security library (for CLI 2.0)                 
libmono-security4.0-cil                    - Mono Security library (for CLI 4.0)                 
libmono-sharpzip2.84-cil                   - Mono SharpZipLib library (for CLI 2.0)             
libmono-sqlite2.0-cil                      - Mono Sqlite library (for CLI 2.0)                   
libmono-system-configuration4.0-cil        - Mono System.Configuration library (for CLI 4.0)     
libmono-system-data-linq2.0-cil            - Mono System.Data.Linq Library (for CLI 2.0)         
libmono-system-data2.0-cil                 - Mono System.Data Library (for CLI 2.0)             
libmono-system-messaging2.0-cil            - Mono System.Messaging Library (for CLI 2.0)         
libmono-system-security4.0-cil             - Mono System.Security library (for CLI 4.0)         
libmono-system-web2.0-cil                  - Mono System.Web Library (for CLI 2.0)               
libmono-system-xml4.0-cil                  - Mono System.Xml library (for CLI 4.0)               
libmono-system2.0-cil                      - Mono System libraries (for CLI 2.0)                 
libmono-system4.0-cil                      - Mono System libraries (for CLI 4.0)                 
libmono-wcf3.0-cil                         - Mono WCF libraries (for CLI 2.0)                   
libmono-webbrowser2.0-cil                  - Mono Web Browser library (for CLI 2.0)             
libmono-winforms2.0-cil                    - Mono System.Windows.Forms library (for CLI 2.0)     
libmono2.0-cil                             - Mono libraries (for CLI 2.0)                       
mono-4.0-gac                               - Mono GAC tool (for CLI 4.0)                         
mono-gac                                   - Mono GAC tool
If i remember well, the 2.0 versions are enough for the arkos commandline tools and the 4.0 are for the wyztracker.

Offline Targhan

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #53 on: 20:46, 11 December 12 »
Sorry, I can't really help you about using Mono. I always thought it couldn't run WinForms, so...
@db6128: glad to know my work is still relevant :) . However, Arkos Tracker is not developed anymore for now. I'd like to improve it but lacks time for that. I still think STarkos, thought of course more limited, "feels" better than Arkos Tracker. No PC can compete with the real hardware!
Trg.Aks
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Arkos Tracker 2 - alpha 9 now released! - Follow the news on Twitter!
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Offline db6128

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #54 on: 20:58, 11 December 12 »
Arkos Tracker is not developed anymore for now. I'd like to improve it but lacks time for that. I still think STarkos, thought of course more limited, "feels" better than Arkos Tracker. No PC can compete with the real hardware!
Of course, but it’s very handy to have a Windows version to learn it all for the first time. :) There’s nothing wrong with the CPC, but it’s definitely a more ‘mysterious’ environment, especially for noobs. : P
[The owner of one of the few existing cartridges of Chase HQ 2] mentioned to me that unless someone could find a way to guarantee the code wouldn't be duplicated to anyone else, he wouldn't be interested.
Did he also say things like "My treasureeeeee" and is he a little grey guy?

Offline McKlain

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #55 on: 23:38, 11 December 12 »
To me it's my weapon of choice.


I don't have the hardware (6128) or the space to have a full CPC set up all the time, and using Arkos on windows it's way more comfortable to me than using Starkos inside an emulator  ;D

Offline RockRiver

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #56 on: 14:40, 03 January 13 »
Last time I tried to convert simple 3 channel MIDI composition (cause I'm usually score MIDI musician) to Arkos Tracher I couldn't, due to Arkos Tracker does not understand or pass "rests" to tracks.  I used MIDI player ouput to Arkos midi input.
 And Arkos PLAY it OK with assigned sounds but allowed REC only ONE midi input channel to tracker channel... and without rests and correct measurement  :(

I work better with score than with tracker numbers... what a pity!!
 :-[

But I like a lot this app.

In Spain on "Computer Music extra #5" magazine they review (page 81 and put inside DVD-rom) the great Arkos Tracker  :)

Offline Targhan

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #57 on: 12:17, 05 January 13 »
Old-school trackers are really not made to handle MIDI signals. They lack the accuracy one could find with MIDI, as you can only trigger a note, at best, once every 1/300s, but rather 6/50 as most people will use a 50hz player, with a new "line" every six frames. Modern trackers such as Renoise on PC allows a "delay" effect, but the aim of Arkos Tracker is to target a CPC with a rather limited memory and CPU resources, so I didn't include such effect. Even if I did, it would only be accurate to the frame, which still may not be enough to reproduce a very "human" MIDI score.
Also, it is logical that the MIDI "note off" isn't recorded by Arkos Tracker, since the sounds don't rely on ADSR envelopes, or even a simple Attack/Release system. Once again it relies on very simple mechanism that, in my opinion, makes the software still powerful for the CPC target. Even though the software is on PC, the main constraint is still the player on the real hardware, and I wanted it to be as fast as possible.
At best, I could implement a "note off" record that would add "Off" notes, but I'm not sure the result would be interesting as the note would directly stop.
Targhan/Arkos

Arkos Tracker 2 - alpha 9 now released! - Follow the news on Twitter!
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Offline RockRiver

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #58 on: 08:51, 07 January 13 »
I could implement a "note off" record that would add "Off" notes, but I'm not sure the result would be interesting as the note would directly stop.
Yes please!!! Let's go
We will try. To hear what sounds then... "MIDI 2 CPC" is too much, a crazy dream, but it could approach slightly  :)

[Good wishes for 2013]

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #59 on: 15:48, 07 January 13 »
Sorry, I can't really help you about using Mono. I always thought it couldn't run WinForms, so...
@db6128: glad to know my work is still relevant :) . However, Arkos Tracker is not developed anymore for now. I'd like to improve it but lacks time for that. I still think STarkos, thought of course more limited, "feels" better than Arkos Tracker. No PC can compete with the real hardware!
Trg.Aks
some winforms and win32 can be run through wine and mono on wine.

@Targhan: Is there source available so I can look at it and fix it for linux?

for me it doesn't matter which mono libraries I install, the tracker itself will not run under linux. :(
« Last Edit: 19:34, 07 January 13 by arnoldemu »
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Offline Targhan

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #60 on: 19:40, 07 January 13 »
@RockRiver : sorry to disappoint, but I don't have time to spend time on Arkos Tracker right now, though I'd love to do it some day.
@ArnoldEmu : sorry to disappoint, but I don't intent to share the code for now, as I'd like to improve it some day.
Thanks for your understanding :).
Trg.Aks
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Arkos Tracker 2 - alpha 9 now released! - Follow the news on Twitter!
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Offline TFM

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #61 on: 21:48, 08 January 13 »
Well, it's good to hear that work - one day - will continue at Arkos Trakker.
Also it would be great if this would influence Starkos is a positive way. May you can use ideas from Arkos Trakker also to make Starkos even better. I ask, because I can use Starkos on my CPC and have no need to get a PC for making songs on the CPC.  ;)
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Offline Targhan

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #62 on: 23:19, 08 January 13 »
I don't think STarKos will evolve ; or if it can actually. There's no more memory left for big modifications, and all the new "hard" management of Arkos Tracker would be quite cumbersome on a CPC, UI-wise. One projet that could be interesting to do would be a compiler from SKS to AKS binary songs so that people who stick to the CPC wouldn't have to use the PC generators. The formats are all available if someone wants to perform this (awkward but interesting) task :).
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Arkos Tracker 2 - alpha 9 now released! - Follow the news on Twitter!
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Offline Bryce

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #63 on: 23:32, 08 January 13 »
Could the STarKos core code not be converted to ROM or ROMs? Then you could free up RAM for extensions and plugins or even put them on ROM too?

Bryce.

Offline Targhan

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #64 on: 23:45, 08 January 13 »
I'm against STarKos being in a ROM, as I want it to be working without any extension. Almost all the 64k "secondary" memory is used for the song data, as STarKos can handle huge music. In my experience, I never saw any music being bigger than 15kb, so it may be possible to use some of this memory for more code. However, it's not that easy because the architecture of the software would have to be modified.
Targhan/Arkos

Arkos Tracker 2 - alpha 9 now released! - Follow the news on Twitter!
Disark - A cross-platform Z80 disassembler/source converter
FDC Tool 1.1 - Read Amsdos files without the system

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Offline TFM

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #65 on: 23:56, 08 January 13 »
Could the STarKos core code not be converted to ROM or ROMs? Then you could free up RAM for extensions and plugins or even put them on ROM too?

Bryce.
Or just use more RAM. Nice for people with RAM expansions ;-)
 
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Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #66 on: 12:16, 31 March 13 »
@ArnoldEmu : sorry to disappoint, but I don't intent to share the code for now, as I'd like to improve it some day.
Thanks for your understanding :) .
Trg.Aks
At work I adapted a windows forms app to work under mono on a mac.
I took out the "EnableVisualStyles" call in the program.cs. I also installed XQuartz.
After I did both of these the app worked.

Perhaps the same could be done for Arkos Tracker? (Remove the EnableVisualStyles) to make it work under Linux?
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Offline TFM

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #67 on: 20:21, 01 April 13 »
The point is to have programs running on a real CPC (gladly with expansions)!!!
 
If software runs on a PC, why shall it create stuff for the CPC? Then just stay with the PC and that's it.
 
I use the CPC because I don't want to use the PC, so only software which runs on the real machine counts for me. And expansions for the CPC are great and shall be supported IMHO.
 
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #68 on: 20:41, 01 April 13 »
I agree with TFM.

But if you absolutely feel you MUST code for the PC, then at least use a technology that runs on both Mac, Linux and Windoze.

Or, if you absolutely feel you MUST support only one of the above platforms, a CPC scener surely chooses anything but a Microsoft platform.

I seriously question Targhan's loyalty to the CPC. He sure has a lot of explaining to do. I'm pretty sure he's a Microsoft spy trying to move all the musicians away from the CPC, but it won't work I tell ya! At least not with this musician.

Offline TFM

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #69 on: 20:43, 01 April 13 »
 :laugh:
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Offline McKlain

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #70 on: 12:37, 02 April 13 »
The point is to have programs running on a real CPC (gladly with expansions)!!!
 
If software runs on a PC, why shall it create stuff for the CPC? Then just stay with the PC and that's it.
 
I use the CPC because I don't want to use the PC, so only software which runs on the real machine counts for me. And expansions for the CPC are great and shall be supported IMHO.


I like making music for the cpc, but I don't have the space at home to have a full cpc set up all the time, nor the hardware to run starkos (i just have a 464 without a monitor) or the will to do it, as I find the workflow with Arkos a lot more comfortable. I use windows (the devil!) and having the posibility of doing music for the cpc so easily is just great.


I just don't get the "if it's for the cpc, then do it on the cpc" thing.

Offline steve

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #71 on: 15:09, 02 April 13 »

I just don't get the "if it's for the cpc, then do it on the cpc" thing.

For me, when I am sitting in front of a PC, I cannot imagine that I am sitting in front of a CPC, they are too dissimilar.
Secondly, if you develop software on a PC, it may not work or may work differently or may not look or run the same when run on a real CPC, it just seems easier to guarantee that you get what you want when you develop on a real machine.
It might even be thought of as "cheating" since the tools are more powerful and faster on a PC, which is fine if you are in business, but for a hobby?

Offline McKlain

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #72 on: 15:12, 02 April 13 »
You said it. It's a hobby. Do I really need to buy a 6128, find a place to set it up and load starkos (or whatever other tracker you can think of) to make music for the cpc?

Offline robcfg

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #73 on: 15:13, 02 April 13 »

For me, when I am sitting in front of a PC, I cannot imagine that I am sitting in front of a CPC, they are too dissimilar.
Secondly, if you develop software on a PC, it may not work or may work differently or may not look or run the same when run on a real CPC, it just seems easier to guarantee that you get what you want when you develop on a real machine.
It might even be thought of as "cheating" since the tools are more powerful and faster on a PC, which is fine if you are in business, but for a hobby?
  Of course, you should test the results on the real machine, but working on the PC is so much comfortable...


I mean, do what you like, but test it on the real machine. At the end, it's a matter of personal taste...

Offline mr_lou

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #74 on: 15:14, 02 April 13 »
I just don't get the "if it's for the cpc, then do it on the cpc" thing.

Well, I haven't tried Arkos Tracker, but for what it's worth, I imagine that it does a much better job than most emulators, when it comes to reproducing the CPC's sound.
I have seen/heard a lot of emulators (even including WinAPE) get the volume tables wrong, resulting in my tracks sounding all wrong in WinAPE. (I create all my tracks on my real CPC using STarKos).

Obviously I don't think it's cool that people don't hear my tracks the way I wanted them to sound. But that's not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that some musicians create their music on their PC using an emulator that does it wrong. That's just not good.

Knowing Targhan's musical skills, I am 99.9% sure Arkos Tracker does it correct though. But I can't say since I haven't tried it.


In my opinion, cross platform development is fine. Afterall, I don't develop my JavaME games on my JavaME cellphone. It is fine to use your PC to develop for the CPC, JavaME, Android, whatever. The part that is NOT fine is when you don't test on the real machine before releasing!

If you do CPC music on the PC, test it on a real CPC before releasing. Does it really sound the way your PC says it does?
Same deal when I do MIDI music for JavaME games. Had to listen how the tracks sounded like on the actual devices, and sometimes change an instrument.

Always test on the real thing! That's it.


As far as I remember, we already have 1 game that was developed using emulator only, and doesn't run on a real CPC: The Eternal Light. We also have a music disc or two that was done using an emulator only. I don't remember which one(s) they are though. But continuing down that path is a terrible mistake. So; always test on a real CPC. (Did I mention that already?)