Author Topic: Arkos Tracker  (Read 37966 times)

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Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #75 on: 15:15, 02 April 13 »
For me, when I am sitting in front of a PC, I cannot imagine that I am sitting in front of a CPC, they are too dissimilar.
Secondly, if you develop software on a PC, it may not work or may work differently or may not look or run the same when run on a real CPC, it just seems easier to guarantee that you get what you want when you develop on a real machine.
It might even be thought of as "cheating" since the tools are more powerful and faster on a PC, which is fine if you are in business, but for a hobby?
Many companies "back in the day" used other machines to develop CPC games on.
They used PCs, STs, even other 8-bit computers (e.g. Tatung Einstein to develop for cpc).
True, they often had a cable direct to the cpc, and downloaded it onto the cpc. The host system was then used just for writing the code on and storing it on that.

For me, I use PC because I can't have my cpc's out all the time, it is quicker and easier for me to develop on the pc than on the cpc.
I always run the game on cpc before I release it and fix any bugs... and the end product is for cpc...

So for me, I don't develop ON the CPC.. does it matter?
My games. My Games
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Offline db6128

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #76 on: 15:18, 02 April 13 »
Ah, this thing about “cheating” again. Who cares? We can’t pretend we still live in the past with only CPCs and diskmags. Make the use of all the tools that are available to produce the best software. If it still runs on the CPC, who cares how it was created? Using tools that improve efficiency mean that we all get to see more releases that the writer could more easily develop and debug. Would you really prefer to go back to how things were in the past?
[The owner of one of the few existing cartridges of Chase HQ 2] mentioned to me that unless someone could find a way to guarantee the code wouldn't be duplicated to anyone else, he wouldn't be interested.
Did he also say things like "My treasureeeeee" and is he a little grey guy?

Offline McKlain

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #77 on: 15:18, 02 April 13 »
I think that we all agree about testing on a real machine before releasing.


When I'm done with a song, I make a tape to test it on my cpc and sample it on the pc to upload the track to my soundcloud account. At least that I can do with my 464.

Offline steve

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #78 on: 15:32, 02 April 13 »
You said it. It's a hobby. Do I really need to buy a 6128, find a place to set it up and load starkos (or whatever other tracker you can think of) to make music for the cpc?

No, you don't, I was merely trying to tell you from my own personal opinion why I prefer to use real CPCs, it is not intended to be seen as law.

Many companies "back in the day" used other machines to develop CPC games on.
They used PCs, STs, even other 8-bit computers (e.g. Tatung Einstein to develop for cpc).
True, they often had a cable direct to the cpc, and downloaded it onto the cpc. The host system was then used just for writing the code on and storing it on that.

For me, I use PC because I can't have my cpc's out all the time, it is quicker and easier for me to develop on the pc than on the cpc.
I always run the game on cpc before I release it and fix any bugs... and the end product is for cpc...

So for me, I don't develop ON the CPC.. does it matter?

No, it does not matter, everyone is free to do whatever they want.

Ah, this thing about “cheating” again. Who cares? We can’t pretend we still live in the past with only CPCs and diskmags. Make the use of all the tools that are available to produce the best software. If it still runs on the CPC, who cares how it was created? Using tools that improve efficiency mean that we all get to see more releases that the writer could more easily develop and debug. Would you really prefer to go back to how things were in the past?

I certainly don't care, it was just my personal opinion, but I do like living in the past ;)

Offline db6128

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #79 on: 17:50, 02 April 13 »
I certainly don't care, it was just my personal opinion, but I do like living in the past ;)
All of which is totally fair, of course. :D It was just when you said this:
It might even be thought of as "cheating" since the tools are more powerful and faster on a PC, which is fine if you are in business, but for a hobby?
That doesn’t say conclusively that you do think it’s cheating, but even if it was just a ‘some might say’, I wanted to disagree with the reasoning behind it. Again, nothing personal: individual users can develop however they want, as variety is the spice of life and all that, but to dismiss one particular style of development as cheating (even hypothetically!) is unfair when all things that lead to quality new productions should be welcomed.

At least personally, I cannot imagine developing the things I’ve programmed so far on real hardware, having to squint at a monochrome screen with very few characters and, more so, having to endure long waits to recompile and test tiny alterations: if you had any idea of how many iterations I have to go through when debugging, you would be terrified of the prospect of doing that on real hardware! ;) Instead, with WinAPE and its great features, I was able to develop, debug, and test timings and new features almost infinitely faster than I would have been able to on a real CPC. The end result in the case of the Game of Life was something that I was very proud of, that others users responded positively to, and that I hope to resume once I have time and a more usable PC.

At the end of the day, it’s verified as working on real hardware, which is the only criterion in my eyes. Anything beyond that is fair game and can only lead to more creative and efficient programming. If some users feel that programming on a real CPC is better – which I can understand from a perspective of mindset, if not efficiency or usability – more power to them. Likewise for anyone else and the way in which they like to work. Just don’t dismiss any of said methods as illegitimate.
[The owner of one of the few existing cartridges of Chase HQ 2] mentioned to me that unless someone could find a way to guarantee the code wouldn't be duplicated to anyone else, he wouldn't be interested.
Did he also say things like "My treasureeeeee" and is he a little grey guy?

Offline steve

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #80 on: 19:41, 02 April 13 »
Everyone is free to do as they wish, my opinions do not matter.

I think it is like a race between two people , one is on foot, the other is in a chauffeur driven limousine, and that is not cheating at all. ;D

Offline db6128

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #81 on: 20:08, 02 April 13 »
Well,  the metaphor of a race doesn’t really apply as programming is much more like a journey – where the real goal is to reach the destination, and the nature of the travel doesn’t matter in the end – so yes, it’s completely fair.  ::)
[The owner of one of the few existing cartridges of Chase HQ 2] mentioned to me that unless someone could find a way to guarantee the code wouldn't be duplicated to anyone else, he wouldn't be interested.
Did he also say things like "My treasureeeeee" and is he a little grey guy?

Offline TFM

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #82 on: 22:41, 02 April 13 »
I like making music for the cpc, but I don't have the space at home to have a full cpc set up all the time, nor the hardware to run starkos (i just have a 464 without a monitor) or the will to do it, as I find the workflow with Arkos a lot more comfortable. I use windows (the devil!) and having the posibility of doing music for the cpc so easily is just great.

See, in my room in Munich it's the other way around! I have a real CPC set up there. And I just have no space to put a Desktop there. And PC's do use up a lot of space! So since I have no space for a PC, I would really appreciate if a program that does work for the CPC can also run on a CPC.

I just don't get the "if it's for the cpc, then do it on the cpc" thing.
That's easy to explain: Why the need of buying a second computer? If it runs on the CPC great! If not, then I have to buy another computer system just to run an applications. So, well, then I will probably just not use it.
 
But sure, here at work I have my laptop and CPC Emulators and I'm glad that they exist. And of course the Arkos Tracker is also very welcome.  :)
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Offline TFM

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #83 on: 22:47, 02 April 13 »
... but working on the PC is so much comfortable...
Dieses ist des Pudels Kern!
I mean this it the point! And this problem has to be changed. If Starkos would be more comfortable than Arkos Tracker then people would use it way more often.

Well I understand McKlain, it will not change things in his case.
 
... Would you really prefer to go back to how things were in the past?
Of course!
« Last Edit: 22:51, 02 April 13 by TFM/FS »
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Offline db6128

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #84 on: 01:07, 03 April 13 »
... but working on the PC is so much comfortable...
I mean this it the point! And this problem has to be changed. If Starkos would be more comfortable than Arkos Tracker then people would use it way more often.
Are you really implying that the CPC is fully capable of being as comfortable and capable a working environment as a modern PC? I mean we all love the CPC, but come on; some things just aren’t tenable.

... Would you really prefer to go back to how things were in the past?
Of course!
Oh, right. Well, respectfully, I’ve seen how laborious it can be to change your mind about things it’s set on, whether they’re fully reasonable or not, so I’m not going to try. I’ve explained the other perspective as far as I can already, anyway.
[The owner of one of the few existing cartridges of Chase HQ 2] mentioned to me that unless someone could find a way to guarantee the code wouldn't be duplicated to anyone else, he wouldn't be interested.
Did he also say things like "My treasureeeeee" and is he a little grey guy?

Offline Grim

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #85 on: 03:56, 03 April 13 »
Apologies for interrupting your theological discussion, but that:
Quote from: SNAFU
db6128: Would you really prefer to go back to how things were in the past?
The Future Man: Of course!
was simply hilarious! :D

Offline TFM

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #86 on: 04:00, 03 April 13 »
...Are you really implying that the CPC is fully capable of being as comfortable and capable a working environment as a modern PC? ...
How does your PC look like? A keyboard, a screen and a mouse. Right?
So where is the difference to a CPC with Mouse? It's finally minor, it's just software and software can be created.
 
If I would like to see a Windows environment on the CPC then would have done it, But I don't like windows at all. So I made it comfortable for me. And honestly I enjoy working with my apps on CPC more than any kind of software on PC.
 
 
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Offline McKlain

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #87 on: 10:59, 03 April 13 »
How does your PC look like? A keyboard, a screen and a mouse. Right?
So where is the difference to a CPC with Mouse? It's finally minor, it's just software and software can be created.


Well, apart from the screen resolution and color depth, the filesystem, having dropbox running to make an online backup of every music file I make, etc.

Offline ralferoo

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #88 on: 11:09, 03 April 13 »
How does your PC look like? A keyboard, a screen and a mouse. Right?
So where is the difference to a CPC with Mouse? It's finally minor, it's just software and software can be created.
The smallest of my terminal windows is the same resolution as the CPC's entire screen. When I'm coding, I usually have 2 of these and a bunch of bigger windows tiled on the same screen.

With the best will in the world, there's no amount of software you can create for the CPC that'll give me that screen real estate, nor a comparable speed of window updates.

Offline db6128

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #89 on: 13:34, 03 April 13 »
How does your PC look like? A keyboard, a screen and a mouse. Right?
So where is the difference to a CPC with Mouse? It's finally minor, it's just software and software can be created.
My point was that not all software that can be realised on a modern computer is possible on a CPC, at least not practically. I approve completely of people like you who program things with that goal, but it’s not logistically possible to have the two be equivalent in all cases. As the task becomes more complex, the user hits barriers of usability or even, effectively, impossibility – due to speed, space, etc. Sure, maybe someone could eventually program a way to model planetary trajectories, edit a huge image or video, compose music at CD-quality, and so on… but how much exponentially more time would that take, and is it really worth it just to say you’re a purist? Again, use whatever makes the best final product in the most efficient way – which, for some tasks, entails a faster writing environment.
 
Quote
If I would like to see a Windows environment on the CPC then would have done it, But I don't like windows at all. So I made it comfortable for me. And honestly I enjoy working with my apps on CPC more than any kind of software on PC.
And that’s great! But what I’ve been trying to do with my recent posts in this thread is to stop people from drawing false parallels between their personal preferences vs. reality for all users. I think it’s great that some people have the enthusiasm to do so much on a CPC, even developing their own software to make it possible like you do, but that neither means that the CPC can do absolutely everything a PC can (at least in a practical sense) or that this way of working is anything except personal opinion.

Apologies for interrupting your theological discussion, but that:
Quote from: SNAFU
db6128: Would you really prefer to go back to how things were in the past?
The Future Man: Of course!
was simply hilarious! :D
You read the second line in Bane’s voice, right? ;)
[The owner of one of the few existing cartridges of Chase HQ 2] mentioned to me that unless someone could find a way to guarantee the code wouldn't be duplicated to anyone else, he wouldn't be interested.
Did he also say things like "My treasureeeeee" and is he a little grey guy?

Offline Targhan

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #90 on: 19:05, 03 April 13 »
Oh, that debate once again :) .


Here are my 2 cents :
- I developed Arkos Tracker mostly because I wanted to get some skills on PC development, especially on C#/.Net. So the CPC vs PC feud wasn't exactly in my head.
- BUT I simply couldn't make a crappy emulation, so indeed, I made it as accurate as possible. Believe me or not, but by sampling a song from the CPC output and comparing the output of the emulated sound on PC, *I* can't make any difference (I may have crappy ears, one might argue), except perhaps a very very slightly "brighter" white noise on the real CPC.
- And as I knew I (or many musicians) wouldn't be satisfied with an emulation (accurate or not), I implemented the CPC-Booster output so that you can have the best of the two worlds.


Now I can tell you something with all honesty, having coded (and used !) both STarKos and Arkos Tracker : I definitely prefer composing a song on the CPC. The  mono raw speaker sound is the only thing I trust. I even like the CPC screen better when composing. For artistic stuff, I think the hardware is still the media, I just can't do it without it. However, on the coding side, I have no problem using my latest IDE on PC to code as fast as possible. DAMS is no more powerful enough for what I'm doing (big projects, loads of code generation, and so on). This is doable on CPC of course. It's just no fun, would take a year to code something you'd do in 2 weeks with modern tools. Ultimately, using the tools that don't fit you drains your motivation... (And if I am currently 'out of the CPC business', it's because of a lack of time, not a lack of motivation.)


Trg.Aks
« Last Edit: 20:08, 03 April 13 by Targhan »
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Offline TFM

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #91 on: 19:34, 03 April 13 »

Well, apart from the screen resolution and color depth, the filesystem, having dropbox running to make an online backup of every music file I make, etc.

Right, and that's really not worth to mention, except the backup box. But therefore we have (hard- and/or)discs on CPC.
 
 
 
The smallest of my terminal windows is the same resolution as the CPC's entire screen. When I'm coding, I usually have 2 of these and a bunch of bigger windows tiled on the same screen.

Ok, I can use a big screen with my CPC and work with up to about 100 characters in line and 32 lines. But WTF does it bring to me? I work with one app at one time. And then I can switch to the next app. Easy on CPC! And I don't have to search the correct window like you have to do on a PC.
Now about your great resoluton on your PC. Where is the gain of super-resolution and characters of a size nobody can read without a microscope.
My clear statement here is: THANKS, BUT NO THANKS!

With the best will in the world, there's no amount of software you can create for the CPC that'll give me that screen real estate, nor a comparable speed of window updates.

HAHAHA!!! Ok, that's a good one. You can't be serious. The software can of course be made on CPC, but nobody started it all yet. Others and me did proove it true thought.
And updates... that's hilarious! Updates on the PC take minutes, much time. On the CPC I never need an update BECAUSE THE CPC JUST WORKS FINE (no PC does though! Else you wouldn't need an update).
In case you talk about an update of the OS, so tell me how long it takes to install a new version of Linux or Windows. My FutureOS (hate it - I give a shit!) need only seconds for intallation and it's fully automatic.
 
All your super resolution, super sound and super CPU power on the PC side are no gain, because you have to work with small windows and your software is just slower than on a CPC (Compare Word and Protext).
 
 
@Targhan: Agree with our post. And it's really true a lot of time get's wasted on CPC for creating pretty special tools which may be part of an IDE on PC side already. Time is the bottle neck...
« Last Edit: 19:51, 03 April 13 by TFM/FS »
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Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #92 on: 19:37, 03 April 13 »
Oh, that debate once again :) .
Argument put very well.
I agree.


My games. My Games
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Offline ralferoo

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #93 on: 11:22, 04 April 13 »
You seem to be just looking at how YOU like to work and not how OTHERS might like to work.

OK, it's great that you like to use a screen with 100x32 characters and swap the entire screen between apps. Nobody is trying to stop you doing that.

My coding setup is to have 80x25 + 80x30 + 100x40 + 100x15 windows that allow me to write my code, keep an eye on the serial output, keep an eye on IRC and have a command window for compiling. Also, the font size is much bigger (I think it's 10x18) allowing nice smooth fonts and I certainly don't need a microscope to read it - if anything the characters are bigger than mode 2 characters on my CTM. I don't have any problems finding the windows, because they're always in the same place and it's just a matter of glancing left or right, up or down.

Nobody can write software to support such a screen display on the CPC, because the hardware doesn't support a resolution that high. So I choose to use a PC for development and transfer across to the CPC because I find it a more comfortable working environment. Actually, for a large chunk of what I want to do (FPGA synthesis) it wouldn't even be possible to run that on the CPC anyway!

The wonderful thing about this world is we can all make choices about what we want to use. It's nice if you want to develop entirely on the CPC and there are plenty of people who like that option - I noticed Hicks used a CPC based editor and assembler, but equally it's nice that we have the option of using PCs to create CPC code too.

You can tell me I'm wrong all you like, but the reality is just that I have different preferences to you.

Offline mr_lou

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #94 on: 12:32, 04 April 13 »
For the record, I use my CPC to code for all other platforms in the world.

I wrote all my Linux utilities on my CPC, because I'm pro cross-platform development.

True story.

Offline McKlain

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #95 on: 12:34, 04 April 13 »
I stopped using my cpc in 1994.

Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #96 on: 12:45, 04 April 13 »
Since 1994 you love it, right?

Before it felt so used...
When you put your ear on a hot stove, you can smell how stupid you are ...

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Offline McKlain

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #97 on: 12:46, 04 April 13 »
Now all I have is a nice memory of past times.

Offline TFM

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #98 on: 19:41, 04 April 13 »
My coding setup is to have 80x25 + 80x30 + 100x40 + 100x15 windows that ...

Nobody can write software to support such a screen display on the CPC...
Well, where's the problem: 100 characters ain't no problem, 40 lines ain't no problem.

You seem to be just looking at how YOU like to work and not how OTHERS might like to work.
Hahaha! You state this and then you write a page about how YOU DO IT. Ok why not, but then I have the same right and I have been first  :laugh:
 
And now you and everybody who gave you a like: Cool down and relax!  8)
« Last Edit: 19:47, 04 April 13 by TFM/FS »
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Offline db6128

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Re: Arkos Tracker
« Reply #99 on: 20:16, 04 April 13 »
You totally dodged the argument by saying that it’s no problem. Thus actually proving ralferoo’s point: it’s no problem for you to work like that, but – as indicated by your lack of any evidence – it’s not possible to recreate his preferred environment on a CPC.

And making out that every person who doesn’t agree with your still unproven claims have emotions clouding their judgement is another tactic of avoiding putting forward a real response to what anyone has said.

Stop doing obtuse acrobatics to avoid the debate. You can say you just don’t want to have it, but making out like you’re winning while providing no evidence in response… doesn’t work.
[The owner of one of the few existing cartridges of Chase HQ 2] mentioned to me that unless someone could find a way to guarantee the code wouldn't be duplicated to anyone else, he wouldn't be interested.
Did he also say things like "My treasureeeeee" and is he a little grey guy?