SymbOS 4.0 released

[Prodatron]

Thanks so much @ajcasado , these all are very useful information! Ok, I will come back to this again hopefully in 2-3 weeks, when I have the hardware. Then maybe we can open an own thread for this. Glad to have your help!

[ikonsgr]

I just tried the mass storage version along with the extra completion package, and it seems to work perfect with ULIfAC board and CPC 6128 
It also runs fine on CPC464, but as you will "only" have 256k ram (as symbos needs cpc6128 roms, so you have to use the dual ram/rom mode), and after initial loading, you will only have ~30kb free available memory, so i had to kill a few apps that load on startup, and then i manage to load a lot of apps too     ( @Prodatron, if i use the rom version of symbos, will i have more free ram than using the mass storage version? )
Maybe it's time to proceed with the ULIfAC II project, that will offer 512k ram + 32xrom board at the same time 


* Just one note: you have to place all files from mass storage version at root directory of usb stick (apart from a few files, everything else will be placed in a "symbos" folder, so you will not a have a lot of mess in your root dir after placing symbos   ), other wise symbos will not load correctly!

[eto]

Does it really need the 6128 ROMs? I think I could run SymbOS on a 464 with a USIFAC II. 

have to place all files from mass storage version at root directory of usb stick

I agree, it would be great if it could start from a subfolder. (btw: can we "hide" files on the USB stick so the CPC doesn't show them? in that case it would at least be possible to hide the files except for "sym").

[Prodatron]

It also runs fine on CPC464, but as you will "only" have 256k ram (as symbos needs cpc6128 roms, so you have to use the dual ram/rom mode), and after initial loading, you will only have ~30kb free available memory, so i had to kill a few apps that load on startup, and then i manage to load a lot of apps too    ( @Prodatron, if i use the rom version of symbos, will i have more free ram than using the mass storage version? )

Thanks a lot for testing!
Like eto I wonder why you need the 6128 roms? TBH my short test with a 464 and Ulifac wasn't successful, but it was only a quick try so far, I have to test it again with another cable.

Maybe it's time to proceed with the ULIfAC II project, that will offer 512k ram + 32xrom board at the same time 

I wonder, if it would be possible to connect a mouse to the free UART port of the Ulifac. Either an old serial one or an USB mouse using a second CH376 board. Then this would be an all-in-one solution for SymbOS.

* Just one note: you have to place all files from mass storage version at root directory of usb stick (apart from a few files, everything else will be placed in a "symbos" folder, so you will not a have a lot of mess in your root dir after placing symbos   ), other wise symbos will not load correctly!

The only file which really needs to be placed is the SYMBOS.INI . All others, including the boot files "sym." and "symbos.bin" can be placed in a subdirectory as well.

But it has to be configured for this. The disc version is configured so that it expects all files in the root (as Amsdos doesn't support folders). The mass storage version is configured for having all files in /symbos/,  /symbos/apps/ etc.

[Prodatron]

( @Prodatron, if i use the rom version of symbos, will i have more free ram than using the mass storage version? )

The ROMs are just for booting SymbOS, they are nothing more than a replacement for the "sym." and "symbos.bin" boot files.

It's more of a traditional thing to still have them. In the past they were very useful for booting SymbOS directly from the SYMBiFACE II when there was no FAT16/32 support outside of SymbOS (this "dark age" ended with the M4Board I think).

Today you can still use them to "quick boot SymbOS" by holding down the CONTROL key when turning on the CP.

[ikonsgr]

Like eto I wonder why you need the 6128 roms? TBH my short test with a 464 and Ulifac wasn't successful, but it was only a quick try so far, I have to test it again with another cable.

I've tried mass storage version on default CPC464 mode with 512k ram, but after initial boot screen, loading is stuck. If you say that no CPC 6128 roms are needed, then maybe symbos needs the shadow ram used in dual ram/rom mode (in default 512k mode, only the mreq suppression is active, there is no shadow ram and no C3 mode support either,and as i recall, previous v3 ULIfAC without internal 64k shadow ram, couldn't load symbos on CPC464) 

I wonder, if it would be possible to connect a mouse to the free UART port of the Ulifac. Either an old serial one or an USB mouse using a second CH376 board. Then this would be an all-in-one solution for SymbOS.

As there is only one hardware UART available which is used for connecting the usb host module, you can't connect anything else.
BUT, i also make this adapter, which combined with this adapter, allows you to use usb mouses as joystick, so practically many usb mouses (ps2 compatible) can be used with symbos!
Finally with this adapter, you can use either an amiga/atari st mouse directly, or most usb mouses by plugging this adapter 

[Prodatron]

As there is only one hardware UART available which is used for connecting the usb host module, you can't connect anything else.

Sorry yes, I forgot about this. Is it the same for the Wifi module, or does it have its own port?

BUT, i also make this adapter, which combined with this adapter, allows you to use usb mouses as joystick, so practically many usb mouses (ps2 compatible) can be used with symbos!
Finally with this adapter, you can use either an amiga/atari st mouse directly, or most usb mouses by plugging this adapter 

Haha yes, I already bought this from you an eBay, not for the CPC, but the version for my Atari 800, it works great!
(I think this version is even emulating a proportional mouse, not only a joystick one? I am using it for the A8GOS, the SymbOS like system from FlashJazzCat for the Atari8).

[ikonsgr]

Sorry yes, I forgot about this. Is it the same for the Wifi module, or does it have its own port?

all uart connectors serial, wifi, usb host module, share a common hardware uart port,so you can only have one device active at a time.

[m_dr_m]

Amazing work Prodatron and Prevtenet! Pumped up to try SCC and Turbo Pascal via CpVM!
Making the Amstrad Great Again!

[Prodatron]

Thanks MadRam, and nice to see you back!

Prevtenet finished a SCC version for Linux just yesterday (currently it is running in Windows and SymbOS), I guess there will be another release soon.

[prevtenet]

Yes, you can now build SCC for Linux (possibly also MacOS?). This will eventually be in the stable v1.2 release, but in the meantime you can build it on your system by downloading the latest source from GitHub and run "makelinux.sh" in the "src" folder. (Note that the binaries expect to be run directly from the repo's 'bin' folder, in order to find their libraries.)

[McArti0]

@Prodatron , could you add a keyboard shortcut to the Reread Source option in Symcommander? 

[Prodatron]

@Prodatron , could you add a keyboard shortcut to the Reread Source option in Symcommander?

Ctrl+R. Doesnt it Work? Have to check later

[McArti0]

Ctrl+R

I read the help and didn't find it, but it is there 

[Prodatron]

If you miss something else please tell.

SymCommander will be updated soon (but first watch out for EdoZ new "Explorer" coming soon).

[harzretro]

After getting the great ulifac v5 i can use symbos on my 464, too.

Yeaaaa

But only in |6128 mode with |sm,2

And this means: only 256kib RAM. 
Little bit less because most programs don't run - they need more memory ...

Just saw rhat @ikonsgr wrote mostly the same ... 

I'm no technican. In |464 mode it looks like the same behaviour like |sm,1
Also the reset button of ulifac won't work anymore - have to restart the Computer.


Ohh, and did i say that i love both,  the ulifac and symbos? 

Today i test my color monitor with it - it is a long time ago i used it ....


And im prefering green, again ..

[ikonsgr]

After getting the great ulifac v5 i can use symbos on my 464, too.
Yeaaaa
But only in |6128 mode with |sm,2
And this means: only 256kib RAM.
Little bit less because most programs don't run - they need more memory ...

There is a trick you can use: open sysmon and kill some of the tasks already running, this will free enough memory and be able to load most of the utilities ;-)

Just saw rhat @ikonsgr wrote mostly the same ...
I'm no technican. In |464 mode it looks like the same behaviour like |sm,1
Also the reset button of ulifac won't work anymore - have to restart the Computer.
Ohh, and did i say that i love both,  the ulifac and symbos? 
Today i test my color monitor with it - it is a long time ago i used it ....
And im prefering green, again ..

|464 is kind of obsolete command (i left it for legacy reasons only), you don't need to use it anymore with ULIfAC board. This is useful with USIfAC II, in order to enable dsk image access mode on CPC 464 as it enables amsdos/parados emulation.
 With ULIfAC, that has a rom board, you can mount amsdos/parados rom, and access images directly as with CPC 6128 (using |FDC instead of |464)

[harzretro]

After getting the great ulifac v5 i can use symbos on my 464, too.
Yeaaaa
But only in |6128 mode with |sm,2
And this means: only 256kib RAM.
Little bit less because most programs don't run - they need more memory ...

There is a trick you can use: open sysmon and kill some of the tasks already running, this will free enough memory and be able to load most of the utilities ;-)

Just saw rhat @ikonsgr wrote mostly the same ...
I'm no technican. In |464 mode it looks like the same behaviour like |sm,1
Also the reset button of ulifac won't work anymore - have to restart the Computer.
Ohh, and did i say that i love both,  the ulifac and symbos? 
Today i test my color monitor with it - it is a long time ago i used it ....
And im prefering green, again ..

|464 is kind of obsolete command (i left it for legacy reasons only), you don't need to use it anymore with ULIfAC board. This is useful with USIfAC II, in order to enable dsk image access mode on CPC 464 as it enables amsdos/parados emulation.
 With ULIfAC, that has a rom board, you can mount amsdos/parados rom, and access images directly as with CPC 6128 (using |FDC instead of |464)

I put the | in front of the 464 to show that i mean the 464

I killed sime aplication, too, but everytime it crashed or i couldn't start any program anymore, but i've to test little bit more .... 

[ikonsgr]

I put the | in front of the 464 to show that i mean the 464
I killed sime aplication, too, but everytime it crashed or i couldn't start any program anymore, but i've to test little bit more ....

Not all apps are for killing, some must not stopped as they crash computer or cause severe problem on symbos.
In default 464 mode with 512k ram, you can load most of games, but as it doesn't support shadow ram+c3 configuration mode,and there are no CPC 6128 roms active, most of alternative os (like symbos, futureos, CP/M plus) can't run properly. 

[Prodatron]

And this means: only 256kib RAM.
Little bit less because most programs don't run - they need more memory ...

Just saw rhat @ikonsgr wrote mostly the same ...

I am glad, that it is now running on your 464 as well!

Please don't kill some of the Daemons, the Starfield Screensaver or the Extended Desktop. You can remove them from Autostart (Start -> Settings -> Startmenu -> Programs -> Autostart -> Delete "Sound Daemon"; then save the config again).
Only kill normal apps. These which are system extensions or daemons may not like it, if you just kill them with the task manager, as they dock to the system in a more deeper way, which is then not cleaned up, when you kill them.

You can run all existing programs even with "only" 256K, when you have nothing else running in the background. For this you would have to run SymbOS in "minimal" mode, for which you have to deactive the "Extended Desktop" as well (Start -> Settings -> Control Panel -> System -> [ ] Extended Desktop)

Somehow it's kind of "fascinating" that with all the new things from the last years a CPC with "only" 256K is reaching some limits now   Everything is still optional, only if you want to have the "full power" you need 512K or more.

[Devlin]

Finally got around to trying it on my 464+512k+usifac2

Works beautifully, too!

[McArti0]

And this means: only 256kib RAM.

Disable new sound daemon.

[norecess464]

Quick question for you @Prodatron . 

Is there a small IDE for Z80 assembly programming in SymbOS?

In mind:

• a multi-document editor with a project file
• the ability to set breakpoints
• the ability to compile, see errors, jump to the file+line when an error occurs
• the ability to run a program and debug/trace it

Please take note that it's not a feature request, just curiosity.
Thanks!

[prevtenet]

Natively on SymbOS, the closest to this right now is to write your code in multiple Notepad windows and assemble it with SCC's native assembler. Improving the infrastructure for coding directly on SymbOS is definitely one of my long-term goals, however.

Otherwise, WinApe's assembler and debugger have most of these features.

[Prodatron]

• the ability to set breakpoints

That is not easy indeed. Problem is, that applications in SymbOS are loaded and relocated to flexible addresses due to the multiprogramming/multitasking environment with dynamic memory usage. All memory is divided into 256-byte pages instead of crude 16K blocks (MSX-DOS, IS-DOS and others) or wasteful 64K pages (MP/M) to maximize RAM usage.
I am still using the primitive DI:HALT methode for debugging in an emulator, if there is a nasty problem I can't debug in another way.
A new emulator feature would be required, which can set dynamic breakpoint addresses depending on the areas, into which an application is relocated during loading.

• the ability to compile, see errors, jump to the file+line when an error occurs

That is already a WinApe feature, or do you speak about something different?

• the ability to run a program and debug/trace it

You can assemble/compile a program directly to a native FAT16/32 partition on your PC and access it in WinApe with SymbOS directly. No need to transfer files to a disc image first. That makes testing very fast and easy, as you have no additional steps. You have the running SymbOS system and just execute apps from the "cpc harddisc" which is in real a PC FAT partition, to which you assembled your last app version.

Regarding debugging/tracing, yeah, see above, it could be improved on Emulator side (breakpoint support for dynamic loading addresses).