Author Topic: About TFM ban  (Read 15832 times)

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Offline Hicks

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About TFM ban
« on: 13:41, 04 March 14 »
I just read this message from Gryzor:
ANNOUNCEMENT - TFM ban

I must say that I'm not very informed of the troubles you mention in this message, so I checked the last messages from TFM on the forum and didn't find anything very offencing. So maybe some messages has been deleted? I mean: I would like to understand the real reasons of this ban, and if the "offencing" messages are deleted, I cannot have my own opinion on the subject (It remember me that Phi2x has been banned too some years ago). Then I don't contest Gryzor's decision, but would like more "transparency" on this subject...

Offline Bryce

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #1 on: 14:18, 04 March 14 »
The deleted posts can be found here: http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/the-hall-of-shame/  However the context is not always easy to understand as the previous posts are not linked to the deleted ones.

Bryce.

Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #2 on: 14:19, 04 March 14 »
I usually don't agree with Gryzor, always...
But in this case even I was speechless...

I need to talk with TFM and ask for details...

Because I don't want to judge him and want to know: "why?"...
« Last Edit: 14:22, 04 March 14 by Devilmarkus »
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Offline ralferoo

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #3 on: 15:09, 04 March 14 »
To be honest, I think it'd be better to contact the admins privately about this and ask them their reasoning, rather than discussing it publically, especially as Gryzor's post makes reference to the existence of personal messages TFM sent to another user that are clearly not public.

A few points to consider:
  • If things said by TFM in private are brought into the public, it would be inappropriate and would be seen as an attack on TFM.
  • Giving a partial account of the things TFM has said or done, so as to avoid the above, would make this ban seem less justified.
  • Asking for TFM's point of view will necessarily provide a biased perspective, especially as he'll be bitter about it right now.
None of these options benefit the community in a positive way. If you've been here long enough, no doubt you've seen many of the long-running threads and arguments that have been alluded to here. Use them as the basis of your understanding of why the admins might have felt the need to take this action. If you're new here, you have a choice. You can go back and read all those posts (TBH, I really wouldn't advise it). Or you could just trust that this is what the admins thought was the best solution. But please, let's not turn this into another right-or-wrong thread...

Offline Munchausen

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #4 on: 15:27, 04 March 14 »
I've noticed TFM being a little tetchy at times, but never anything really rude or offensive (I haven't read all the threads though, e.g. the game compo ones). It more seemed to me that he is sometimes overly defensive and thinks others judge him unfairly (though can't say whether he is right or wrong about that), leading to him responding somewhat aggressively. I think the language barrier might have something to do with it.

If he really has been throwing insults around then obviously that is cause for banning and is a shame.

I'll welcome him back though and hope everyone (TFM included) can let bygones be bygones. I like his presence in the forums, and hope he can stay without offending anyone.

I have to say I'd be pretty upset having everyone talk about this if it was me, so as DevilMarkus I also want to say to TFM; I dont judge, I don't know the facts.
« Last Edit: 15:34, 04 March 14 by Munchausen »

Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #5 on: 15:43, 04 March 14 »
I at least know half of the facts...
So I can understand Gryzor's decision.

I dont want to judge, because I want to hear / read TFMs opinion about that...
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Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #6 on: 15:45, 04 March 14 »

  • If things said by TFM in private are brought into the public, it would be inappropriate and would be seen as an attack on TFM.

In this case: No.
But as I already told: I want to hear the other side, too...
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Online Gryzor

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #7 on: 17:06, 04 March 14 »

@Hicks: as I said in the announcement, his offending posts were being deleted systematically, so as to keep the forum/discussions clean. Older, public discussions/flame wars with him that have been deleted are not available in the Hall of Shame that Bryce mentioned, unfortunately, because the HoS did not exist back then. But older members can undoubtedly recall lengthy brawls involving thread takeovers, name-calling and general unpleasantness.


Really, I can't give much more transparency than that. The only thing that happened behind the scenes was the PM which was out of the blue and very offensive. I confirmed as much as possible to convince me that it was unwarranted, but this last instance was just the straw that broke the camel's back, with the whole history being out there, so although I'm one for transparency myself, in this case I don't think there's a question about it. Not that I don't appreciate your view and opinion, understand, I'm just saying it's not about the PM.


@ralferoo: thanks mate, that's a fair analysis. I'd prefer not to give TFM's PM publicly, so I'm going out on a limb here and trust people to believe that it was utterly silly and offensive. But I'd prefer to move on rather than discussing it. However, I can understand why people would like to address the issue, so if someone prefers to do it in public I won't stop it - at least unless it turns into a flame or something.


@Munchausen: the compo thread was just one of many. TFM has been warned several (hm, lemme check... ok, ten times before this one!) times in the past and has been put under moderation a few more times besides, so there's history alright... The problem, as I've said in my announcement, is that every time he comes back calmed down but after a while he picks up fights again and again.


As for the why... well. We've had spats and fights between users in the past, but they all were one-offs. While I have a pretty good idea why TFM did what he did, truth is, I simply don't mind enough to pursue it; I've talked with him in the past several times trying to get his line of reasoning and his explanations were equally (if not more) offensive and ridiculous towards me. If he has something to say, he's got my email. As for the facts, it's simple enough: he cussed at someone and his overall (public) behavior has been rude for too long.


Offline Hicks

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #8 on: 18:18, 04 March 14 »
@Gryzor: first, I must say that I'm not against you, and that the job of a "moderator" is always very hard to do. But I read the posts from TFM in the Hall of Shame and I must say that I didn't find anything very offencing, but just some critics, ironic messages, etc. Some of them were funny or interesting. And most of the time I was asking to myself: "Why these messages are in the Hall of Shame?!". I can't speak about his PM and deleted messages, since I can't read them (if these messages were still here, maybe there will be no discussion at all, and it will be better for everybody :).

To finish I must ask something: as you probably know, tastefulmrship was very offencing with Krusty, me or Push'n'Pop members at many times here, and wrote pure insults, devaluate our work each time he can. For me it's ok, he is free to do it and I think that people could make their own opinion on this subject. But he wasn't banned for this (and I think he shoud not be banned for that). So why now TFM is banned? In french we say "deux poids deux mesures" ("double standard" in english :)... Hm?

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #9 on: 18:57, 04 March 14 »
I'm not saying you're against me or anything, we're just discussing :)


I can answer your questions, though the answers are already to be found in my announcement.


All it boils down to is: scale. Yes, each single post of TFM by itself may not appear so bad, and usually TFM takes care to tread on the limit, so at to later claim he was only joking, it was a misunderstanding or a language issue. This, of course, can only hold water so long. Taken all together, then, you see a behavioral pattern of disturbance to the point that he needed constant baby-sitting to ensure no offensive/disruptive remarks made it through. Simply put, if it was one, two or ten posts it'd be ok. When you have constant harassment, and when you have several members either reporting his posts or just quitting altogether, you have to take action.


[EDIT] For instance (I was reminded), see how he turned the competition results into a flame war. I considered that extremely bad for the community and he soured things so much so that he seriously impeded prospects for a future competition. That's not a user I feel should belong to this community.


To be honest, I don't know the instances you're talking about. I'm not policing the forum and I'm not even following all threads, so things will slip through as a matter of fact. If you don't report them, then chances are I won't do a thing. What's more, we're all adults here and the vast majority can take some abuse, so even if I see some offensive remark but no biting, I'l let it slide because it's better than starting a moderation thing. If you do report it, I'll seriously consider doing something about it.


I hope I've covered your questions, if not feel free to pursue them.
« Last Edit: 19:33, 04 March 14 by Gryzor »

Offline SuTeKH/Epyteor

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #10 on: 19:41, 04 March 14 »
To finish I must ask something: as you probably know, tastefulmrship was very offencing with Krusty, me or Push'n'Pop members at many times here, and wrote pure insults, devaluate our work each time he can. For me it's ok, he is free to do it and I think that people could make their own opinion on this subject. But he wasn't banned for this (and I think he shoud not be banned for that). So why now TFM is banned? In french we say "deux poids deux mesures" ("double standard" in english :) ... Hm?
@Gryzor; yep, I can't really argue with that!! You're well within your rights to ban me if you want! I'm a man, I can take my punishment if I have done the crime!

Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #11 on: 19:43, 04 March 14 »
@Gryzor; yep, I can't really argue with that!! You're well within your rights to ban me if you want! I'm a man, I can take my punishment if I have done the crime!

Hey, who unbanned you?  :P
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Online Gryzor

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #12 on: 19:45, 04 March 14 »
Well, bans can be had at affordable prices. €10 gets you a week-long ban. €15 for two weeks, €50 for a permanent one. All proceeds go towards building my new HTPC.


Back to being serious now...

Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #13 on: 19:46, 04 March 14 »
I take the 50€ ban.
You know my Paypal account, don't you?
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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #14 on: 19:48, 04 March 14 »
For you, it's free :D

Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #15 on: 19:49, 04 March 14 »
Oh, I'd not getting cash? Tzzzzz...
Hey Gryzor, did I already tell you, that you are very greedy?
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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #16 on: 19:50, 04 March 14 »
Got to feed the babies...

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #17 on: 19:57, 04 March 14 »
Can this thread run on as long as the MMM thread?

When do we start wearing the t-shirts saying "Un-ban TFM"?
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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #18 on: 19:59, 04 March 14 »
Depends. If proceeds go towards building my HTPC, I can start selling them tomorrow..

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #19 on: 19:59, 04 March 14 »
Markus, is that a tiger fish in your sig?
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Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #20 on: 20:01, 04 March 14 »
You mean, my tiger smells like a fish?
Gryzor? Could you please ban arnoldemu for offending my fish? ehm... tiger?
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Online Gryzor

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #21 on: 20:02, 04 March 14 »
Enough bans for a day.


Now, let's get back on topic :)

Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #22 on: 20:08, 04 March 14 »
Yeah, back to topic:

As I already said, I don't want to judge here, because you all know, TFM is a good contact for me.

But... (now comes a but)

I know, what happened.

I really agree with the point, that what happened isn't discutable.

I agree, that Gryzor had to react.

My idea is:
The person, who was offended by TFM, TFM, I and, if you like, you, too, Gryzor, should discuss the problematic in a chat.

Don't we all have the same goal here?

That we can get older and older and smellier and so on, together, with our CPC until the day, the capacitators divorce us?
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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #23 on: 20:11, 04 March 14 »
Yes, except there has been way too much talking with TFM already. Besides, as I think I've made clear, this is not about the PM - this was just just the last in a string of problems. So even if we had the chat and they shook hands it still wouldn't make much difference...

Offline Munchausen

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Re: About TFM ban
« Reply #24 on: 00:05, 05 March 14 »
Sounds like a reasonable decision Gryzor.