Just to know : while discussing with Toto we fond out that we can't find any page on the matter of the characters/letters from the Basic/Firmware, nor any page on this matter of Fonts and so on.
Where is it or should it be created ?
Would be cool to also include some charactyer sets from different games or Demos.
But also how to code this and so on...
And to give such page perhaps a better visibility.
So perhaps some sub-category too like "fonts" or ASCII and so on...
If you want fonts, download graph2font (http://g2f.atari8.info/), a drawing program for Atari 800, include five hundreds fonts, more or less, from Atari and C64 games :P
I have converted all to CPC a few years ago, because it was more faster than rip fonts from CPC games ;)
I have ripped a few ZX Spectrum fonts from interactive fiction games made in GAC, for patching the CPC version of these games (http://www.amstrad.es/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2146), because GAC for CPC use the system font and that, always look amateurish in my eyes :P
Quote from: SyX on 19:55, 01 November 11
because GAC for CPC use the system font and that, always look amateurish in my eyes :P
LocoBASIC system font can look sexy, you know! ^_^
(attached 4k file)
Jajajajaja, i didn't use a "banner" since the times of university, when i connected to the main Dec Alpha using a green VT terminal (lovely serial terminals ;D ). The "like" is for using Lum, she was my first "platonic love" :D
Loco is sexy, i can deny it, and if you take a look at the link of patching CPC interactive fiction games, appears a picture of the spectrum versions and a few ones use the Locomotive font to give a futuristic look to the "space games" ;D ... but adding a new font never was something difficult and in my book always gave a quality touch ;)
Quote from: SyX on 19:55, 01 November 11
I have converted all to CPC a few years ago, because it was more faster than rip fonts from CPC games ;)
Linky?
Attached!!! (sory the size in 7z would be the half :P)
For each font there is a png and the font in raw mode 2 ;)
Quote from: SyX on 20:50, 01 November 11
Loco is sexy, i can deny it, and if you take a look at the link of patching CPC interactive fiction games, appears a picture of the spectrum versions and a few ones use the Locomotive font to give a futuristic look to the "space games" ;D ... but adding a new font never was something difficult and in my book always gave a quality touch ;)
In BASIC; it's a shame that the SYMBOL AFTER command uses up a lot of memory if not used correctly. A lot of people (magazine types-in included) insisted on using SYMBOL AFTER 32 when defining character matrices from, say, the end of ASCII onwards, which grabs a huge amount of memory up to HIMEM*. A SYMBOL AFTER 127 would save some of that BASIC space.
* Of course, HIMEM is then moved down to just below the character matrix 'space' created by the SYMBOL AFTER.
Nice font collection though, sir!
I tend to grab fonts as I go. I'm currently working on converting a PC font called GLADIA; making it 6x7 character matrices in size. Here's a link to the official PC site so you can see what it looks like and have a fair idea of how it will look on CPC;
http://www.hypefortype.com/browse-fonts/font-categories/retro/gladia.html (http://www.hypefortype.com/browse-fonts/font-categories/retro/gladia.html)
Also, there's the fonts I used for POCORO, SHAPE SHIFTER, NTWICCT and a couple of 3 colour font variations for the credits of NTWICCT. I have much more stuck on various .dsk files on my HDD... usually 8x8 or 16x16 taken from Amiga demos/games.
I love playing around in Art Studio, plotting with pixels!
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 08:36, 02 November 11
In BASIC; it's a shame that the SYMBOL AFTER command uses up a lot of memory if not used correctly. A lot of people (magazine types-in included) insisted on using SYMBOL AFTER 32 when defining character matrices from, say, the end of ASCII onwards, which grabs a huge amount of memory up to HIMEM*. A SYMBOL AFTER 127 would save some of that BASIC space.
* Of course, HIMEM is then moved down to just below the character matrix 'space' created by the SYMBOL AFTER.
Tell me about it. Pat McDonald's Sprite Editor from AA43 is a horror, if you exit from it, don't think about running it again and if you make a mistake and some kind of Input Error happens and throws you out, don't think about running it again until you've resetted the computer! >:( A shame cause I kind of like the program and want to do something with it, though it's got this stupid line 40:
40 SYMBOL AFTER 32:MEMORY (HIMEM-4113)
Perhaps I should change line 60 so it reads:
60 WHILE AAFOLDED=1
Apart from that SYMBOL AFTER 32, there are no SYMBOLs being defined, only PLOT is being used and Character 143 is being used for the bigger picture that's being edited. Some corrections were added to the program in AA46 which allows the Sprite to be seen as it will appear onscreen as well, though again no SYMBOLs are used, so I'm somewhat puzzled what that SYMBOL AFTER 32:MEMORY (HIMEM-4113) is doing there. I guess the MEMORY has more relevance since a number of sprites can be produced and can be saved from a memory location, though no character matrices are being defined, so it appears to be bad use of SYMBOL AFTER 32. Wouldn't suprise me if what was published in AA43 was an earlier version of the program, or bits of code were making their way into the program without any real need, we'd never really know if that was the case or not, all we know is the program was published and some corrections were added to it at a later point, which suggests to me it could have been an earlier version of the program which was published, cause they have screenshots of a clearly functional program! :o
Quote from: CP/M User on 10:11, 02 November 11
Apart from that SYMBOL AFTER 32, there are no SYMBOLs being defined, only PLOT is being used and Character 143 is being used for the bigger picture that's being edited. Some corrections were added to the program in AA46 which allows the Sprite to be seen as it will appear onscreen as well, though again no SYMBOLs are used, so I'm somewhat puzzled what that SYMBOL AFTER 32:MEMORY (HIMEM-4113) is doing there. I guess the MEMORY has more relevance since a number of sprites can be produced and can be saved from a memory location, though no character matrices are being defined, so it appears to be bad use of SYMBOL AFTER 32. Wouldn't suprise me if what was published in AA43 was an earlier version of the program, or bits of code were making their way into the program without any real need, we'd never really know if that was the case or not, all we know is the program was published and some corrections were added to it at a later point, which suggests to me it could have been an earlier version of the program which was published, cause they have screenshots of a clearly functional program! :o
SYMBOL AFTER 32 is also used to 'reset' the system character set to default. Maybe a SYMBOL AFTER 255 before the MEMORY (HIMEM-4113) would release that memory (not)used! But most people don't change SYMBOLs before running a new program anyway, so it's a little redundant to have it in the first place. A lot like my habit of having PEN 1/PAPER 0 before my first MODE command.
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 10:23, 02 November 11
SYMBOL AFTER 32 is also used to 'reset' the system character set to default. Maybe a SYMBOL AFTER 255 before the MEMORY (HIMEM-4113) would release that memory (not)used! But most people don't change SYMBOLs before running a new program anyway, so it's a little redundant to have it in the first place. A lot like my habit of having PEN 1/PAPER 0 before my first MODE command.
Yes I made this program (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?topic=1560.msg15975#msg15975) which redefines the Character set to a set of Pixels, in that situation I've done a SYMBOL AFTER 32 at the start of the program, Redefined the Character Matrix from 33 onwards, on exit SYMBOL AFTER 32 is used to reset the character set. Which works without error.
When I have some time I'll look over that Sprite Editor cause I want to do some modifications to it! :laugh: Though I can probably tackle that annoying bug first of all!
Quote from: CP/M User on 10:48, 02 November 11
Yes I made this program (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?topic=1560.msg15975#msg15975) which redefines the Character set to a set of Pixels, in that situation I've done a SYMBOL AFTER 32 at the start of the program, Redefined the Character Matrix from 33 onwards, on exit SYMBOL AFTER 32 is used to reset the character set. Which works without error.
Possibly working from 255 downwards would be better... IF you were considering this for a much larger program*. As it is, using 33 (or even 32) onwards is no problem, memory-wise.
* By larger program, I mean a little 8x8 pixel PRINT animation that changes a few pixels at a time to create different 'sprites' in the middle of the screen. However, the more I think of that, the more I would recommend SYMBOL 255 downwards, or even just 255 and it's changed 'live' per PRINT statement. Could be a nice little animation there! Someone with MODE7 knowledge could create an interesting roto-zommer from that!
@
SyXI didn't want to get into an OffTopic discussion about anime girls, but I'll leave you with this one post; Washu Hakubi, Nene Romanova, Eiko Magami, Priestess Shayla Shayla, Ayaka Kisaragi, Lina Inverse, Asuka Langley Soryu, Honey Kisaragi, girl-type Ranma, Leona Ozaki, Tamaki Kosaka, Atsuko 'Nuku Nuku' Natsume and, of course, Lum-u-chan! (Spot a pattern here?)
Oh, and a dancing cabbit!
Well, i don't use basic, but it would be possible to change the system variables that signaling where the redefine symbols are, i'm using that to be able to change the fonts and don't need to park the most "gluttonous" roms that i have in the megaflash :P
@tastefulmrship: you don't need to say anything more ;D , my youth was a perfect mix of anime and copperlists, jajejijoju, jajejijoju :laugh:
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 12:11, 02 November 11
Possibly working from 255 downwards would be better... IF you were considering this for a much larger program*. As it is, using 33 (or even 32) onwards is no problem, memory-wise.
* By larger program, I mean a little 8x8 pixel PRINT animation that changes a few pixels at a time to create different 'sprites' in the middle of the screen. However, the more I think of that, the more I would recommend SYMBOL 255 downwards, or even just 255 and it's changed 'live' per PRINT statement. Could be a nice little animation there! Someone with MODE7 knowledge could create an interesting roto-zommer from that!
I could see how it would be better going from 255 downwards cause it could work like that. Well, I only made it as a bizarre proof of concept, cause I met some people who had computers that couldn't do graphical images and wondered what it would take in order to make it happen! :laugh:
It's really irrelevant to do it on the Amstrad cause a straightforward plot & an array with some loops is far more straightforward! In order for a machine which doesn't normally support graphics to have graphic like images on it, it would have to support redefining the character set and the ability to write in transparent mode so it doesn't delete the previous pixel!
Maybe this sort of thing would improve graphics on a Spectrum, I don't know. Apart from having at as a bizarre proof of concept, I haven't found any evidence where it would be of benefit (besides displaying a fixed object, but then that's why we had plot which works out more efficient!) ;D
Quote from: SyX on 22:28, 01 November 11
Attached!!! (sory the size in 7z would be the half :P)
For each font there is a png and the font in raw mode 2 ;)
Oh, those are sweeeet!
Any ideas if it's possible to convert them to a modern font format easily?
Quote from: Gryzor on 16:40, 03 November 11Any ideas if it's possible to convert them to a modern font format easily?
How modern are we talking? I'm using them in Amiga, Megadrive, GBA and PSX projects, too xDDDD
Seriously, well, i guess that it would be easy to convert them to a bitmap font format and then use a font converter to generate TTF fonts, although it will need manual retouch surely.
Well, bitmap fonts can be used in modern OSs. If there only were a utility that would take a character matrix and produce the file... it's a straightforward enough job!
http://www.cpctech.org.uk/docs/cpckybd.pdf (http://www.cpctech.org.uk/docs/cpckybd.pdf)
on the first page is the rom charset (uk).
A great document... Until you read his comments on the last page >:(
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 14:59, 04 November 11
A great document... Until you read his comments on the last page >:(
I wonder if he writes something similar at the end of his CV, when applying for a job.
Why the frown? I found it amusing.
And related to this, i enjoyed a pair of articles of Damien Guard about the system font typography in 8 (http://damieng.com/blog/2011/02/20/typography-in-8-bits-system-fonts) and 16 (http://damieng.com/blog/2011/03/27/typography-in-16-bits-system-fonts) bits systems :)
Quote from: SyX on 16:10, 04 November 11
i enjoyed a pair of articles of Damien Guard about the system font typography in 8 (http://damieng.com/blog/2011/02/20/typography-in-8-bits-system-fonts) bits systems :)
See! SYMBOL AFTER 32 when he defined SYMBOL 65! What did I tell you? Wasting valuable BASIC memory!
Tsk! Tsk!
Quote from: Bryce on 14:59, 04 November 11
Until you read his comments on the last page >:(
Bryce.
Yep, not worth the trouble of worrying the printer over!
Wow, the topic went farer than expected...
I only wanted to know if it would be possible to put some pages with the Amstrad characters and some tutorials on how does it work (the ASCII, letters and so on...
Plus some sources for other fonts/"ASCII characters" and how to use them or even replace them in basic estra stuffs for the Amstrad...
When I studied the Speccy ports, many letter font can be found in 1bpp in the rAM but used (displayed) in 2bpp (mode1)...
Please can someone create a page on the matter ?
And perhaps create a category to put all this aspect... (perhaps also find existiing pages with such subjects).
This may be nice to sub-categorize this with the "printer" categories and pages...
Also the various text oriented applications.
(and perhaps even PCW stuffs...)
Also... Are multicolour fonts (real 2bpp or 4bpp, with according modes) easy to use or quite heavier on RAM/ROM ? (logically twice...)
I mean this is funkier and looks cooler to do a mode1 in 4 colours than a mode2 in only2...
Or even greats Mode0 ones in lots of colours...
Many Amstrad Demoz are completly full off scrolltext, so I guess the Font/ASCII/character system is quite important in the programming aspect on CPC...
Quote from: MacDeath on 04:07, 06 November 11
Wow, the topic went farer than expected...
It doesn't surprise me ASCII is quite a significant standard which complies with the values, arrangement of letters, symbols & numerals to that certain extent, after that it's the Extended Character set! :laugh:
A ZX-81 for example doesn't use ASCII standard because of it's limited character range (some computers don't even have lowercase lettering, so everything is in capital! :o ), so we're somewhat fortunate to have the ASCII standard! :)
From the BB4CPC thread;
Quote from: MacDeath on 12:46, 08 November 11
I started such an ASCII topic (CPCwiki discussions section) in hope someone would do a properly linked and categorized page on the wiki on the matter...
As I told there, I simply couldn't find a proper page concerning the letters, characters and ASCII in general from the CPC/Wiki point of view.
But this topic highlighted the importance of such non-existing page also from the Cat'art point of view... and the importance of the different country's ROM that have to be taken into account when you design such ASCII art Cat'arts...
CatArtSCIIs ?
lol
Well, here's the character I use from the ROM supplied with WinAPE 2A18. It shows characters 032-127.
[Click thumbnail to view full image)
(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g385/tastefulmrship/th_WinAPEROMCharacterSet.jpg) (http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g385/tastefulmrship/WinAPEROMCharacterSet.jpg)
Does anyone have access to real hardware to compare 032-127 across the differing ROM sets?
And I always thought ASCII was a standard; the 'S' part of the acronym!
Hi,
Find attached the two screenshots in which the first 127 chars are displayed in a FR-based CPC and an UK-based one respectively.
For your convenience, the differences between the two ROMs occur in the following chars:
-64,
-92,
-94,
-123,
-124,
-125.
Hope I helped!
I am waiting for a Spanish ROM comparison as well... (Syx? MiguelSky? :) )
voxy
EDIT: I installed the Spanish ROM, found in Grimware, in WinAPE and checked if there any differences between the chars of the Spanish ROM and the UK-based one... I couldn't find any! But perhaps a confirmation post is welcome from the Spanish people :)
Oooh... big problems there, then!
"@" "\" and "|" are used a lot in ASCII art.
094 is actually 160 in the UK ROM. (I had to manually change my entire .txt file for the LUMUCHAN ASCII-Art as "^" looks better than "↑")
I had forgotten that other languages use accents on vowels! (ignorant Brit... well, ignorant Paddy living in Britain)
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 14:00, 08 November 11
Oooh... big problems there, then!
"@" "\" and "|" are used a lot in ASCII art.
I know man! I was so disappointed when I found out that my CATart wasn't displayed properly on French CPCs... I had to do a lot of modifications, and with the great support and guidance of Supersly, I manage to show something which is "almost" like my very-first ASCII design (the "almost" word depends on how is defined over different persons, that's why it's inside quotes!)
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 14:00, 08 November 11
I had forgotten that other languages use accents on vowels! (ignorant Brit... well, ignorant Paddy living in Britain)
Imagine if there was a Greek ROM existing as well! We should be grateful that the only chars' differences found are only between the FR and the rest-based ROMs :P
The Spanish ROM let the English characters to 127 as are. Capture from CPCE:
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/418/0002dc.png)
So, do the \, | and @ characters exist somewhere else in the character set? I've looked through 128-255 and it seems to be graphics and Greek alphabet only on UK ROM set. No space available for accented vowels, which means no obvious space for the missing ASCII characters on the French ROM set.
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 14:46, 08 November 11
So, do the \, | and @ characters exist somewhere else in the character set? I've looked through 128-255 and it seems to be graphics and Greek alphabet only on UK ROM set. No space available for accented vowels, which means no obvious space for the missing ASCII characters on the French ROM set.
If you are not working on a CATart, I would advise you the following:
1/ Replace all "
\" (char92) with char205;
2/ Replace all "
/" (char47) with char204;
(char47 is not different between FR and the rest but this suggestion is made in order to keep a higher lever of coherence)3/ Replace all "
|" (char124) with char149;
4/ Replace all "
@" (char64) with char164 (just a suggestion in this one...)
This way you will keep "almost" as you already have your ASCII art screens, but these changes cannot work on a CATart task, as we are restricted to the first 128 chars!
See you,
voxy
Quote from: voXfReaX on 15:13, 08 November 11
If you are not working on a CATart, I would advise you the following:
1/ Replace all "\" (char92) with char205;
2/ Replace all "/" (char47) with char204;
(char47 is not different between FR and the rest but this suggestion is made in order to keep a higher lever of coherence)
3/ Replace all "|" (char124) with char149;
4/ Replace all "@" (char64) with char164 (just a suggestion in this one...)
Ooooh... so those actual characters do not exist within 128-255? That's not good. I wonder why they did that?
What happens when you hit the "\", "@" or "|" keys on the AZERTY keyboard?
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 15:36, 08 November 11
Ooooh... so those actual characters do not exist within 128-255? That's not good. I wonder why they did that?
What happens when you hit the "\", "@" or "|" keys on the AZERTY keyboard?
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 15:36, 08 November 11
Ooooh... so those actual characters do not exist within 128-255? That's not good. I wonder why they did that?
What happens when you hit the "\", "@" or "|" keys on the AZERTY keyboard?
No clue why they did that... I guess the French guys will be more capable than me in answering this question!
You can compare between the two screenshots and find out how the "/", "@" and "|" are appearing in an AZERTY keyboard!
But as I've written to you before, the proposed solution in my previous post can only help you if you are not working in a CATart!
(I attach the screenshots here as well, since this damned McDeath moved our conversation to another place :P )
I use a french CPC, you get the letter "ù" when you type |, but it still works as expected, so typing ùB swaps to drive B: just like |B would.
Bryce.
Thanks to the both of you for clearing that up for me. I've seen references to ùSTK and ùA, but never knew exactly what that meant!
I have a font program that converts ASCII text to a 40-column MODE 0 font. This is going to fun for any French users that get their hands on it, as those characters will look different on the screen... also, it presently only works for 32-127, so any characters beyond that (160, 164, 204, 205) will be ignored. Maybe I should consider including them and pointing them to the UK ASCII set.
I probably should have mentioned: The key on the French Keyboard also has "ù" written on it. There is a key with "|" too, but that won't work for RSXs.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 16:30, 08 November 11
There is a key with "|" too, but that won't work for RSXs.
What character (number) is PRINTed when you press that key?
Believe it or not...
In french the "ù" is actually used in only one word !
où... which means Where.
And this shitty "letter+accent" do have it's own key... WTF ?
French keybnoard is completely screwed up concerning the thing we call "logic" (must be a discrete logic...)
I found out the Spanish keyboard is quite betterly concieved concerning the "accents" managements.
The only fault being the Ñ key... (lol)
in france we have no way to add the é accent where we want, it exist already done with é, so we can't spell some foreigner word using this accent on other letters...
the same with ç (only on ç),
è on è and à and ù of course... but we also have a proper accent : ò...
So why do we have those freaking special keys ? for ù, è, à ???
on the other hand we have some proper ¨¨¨ (ï öäëÿ....) ^^^ (êâôîû) a and ~~~~ (ñõ...)
Quote from: MacDeath on 19:44, 08 November 11The only fault being the Ñ key... (lol)
The Spanish keyboard only changes the key numbers for some keys to fit the Ñ one (* + : ;...) but it respect the ASCII numbers from the English version.
Well, thank God that Schneider kept the keyboard layout and character bitmaps as they are! Everything else just sounds a bit messy to me.
I'm happy to buy my CPC on 1986... I got a nice QWERTY keyboard without useless french accents on it.
Others problems come with it. Numbers need to press SHIFT to get it.
So, some games don't start when reading the keyboard entry.
Quote from: TotO on 18:56, 11 November 11
Others problems come with it. Numbers need to press SHIFT to get it.
So, some games don't start when reading the keyboard entry.
Indeed, pressing Shift+number to get the number printed is a bit awkward!
But most curious is the fact that some games couldn't even boot... Really? Can you provide us with an example, if it's easy of course?
@tastefulmrship: Did you manage to correct your ascii screens? Let me know!
Quote from: voXfReaX on 23:57, 11 November 11
Indeed, pressing Shift+number to get the number printed is a bit awkward!
But most curious is the fact that some games couldn't even boot... Really? Can you provide us with an example, if it's easy of course?
Not speaking about booting a program but starting a game from a menu by choosing 1 or 2 players, ... Because SHIFT+NUMBER don't work.
Quote from: SyX on 22:28, 01 November 11
Attached!!! (sory the size in 7z would be the half :P )
For each font there is a png and the font in raw mode 2 ;)
I forgot to mention that CPC-Rulez have a pretty decent collection of 8-bit fonts to download.
http://cpcrulez.fr/applications_graphic_stuff.htm (http://cpcrulez.fr/applications_graphic_stuff.htm)
Quote from: tastefulmrship on 10:19, 13 November 11
I forgot to mention that CPC-Rulez have a pretty decent collection of 8-bit fonts to download.
http://cpcrulez.fr/applications_graphic_stuff.htm (http://cpcrulez.fr/applications_graphic_stuff.htm)
Anything good for the cpcwiki logo in there? :)
Grim already done a goodjob for that; Nop ?
You mean the disk-logo? Still needs a proper font :)
The font used on the logos in signature of tastefulmrship.[size=0.85em][/size]
Quote from: TotO on 15:54, 13 November 11
The font used on the logos in signature of tastefulmrship.
You mean these pretty babies down here!
EDIT: The winners of any vote... cos I'll make numerous 'alt' accounts and vote for HoH! (
Then delete the alt accounts once voting has finished. I don't want to over-populate the forums with too many fakies!)
Yes, something like that!
Hi. :) I have question about french and german signs. I want prepare set characters with right codes to TYPE guide files in this two languages. I know about standard Windows 1252 (western latin) and ISO-8859-1, but it seems not right to show txt/doc files in Amstrad's world. I know about french keyboard in CPC and 5 french characters (I know ASCII codes), but where is rest? As I know should be 13 signs not 5. Maybe rest are using so rare, maybe unnecessary. And where are big/capital letters? I don't know, maybe in french language none word start on any typical french signs, so is not necessary to define all of them. The same question about german letters, I mean capital letters.
So, which letters are important and what codes are using by French and German users of Amstrad in word processors, Basic etc.?? Any help??
PS.: I hear CPC was popular in Greece, but I never seen picture of Amstrad with greek text on screen. I know Gryzor is Greek so can you show me some links to satisfy my curiosity? :)