Improve SOS article in CPC Wiki

[TFM]

Ok, together with your post in the fos list it doesn't make sense anymore. Blocked until further discussion. Prodatron

Dear pdt. Again you abused your privilegues. To block my account in CPC Wiki can't hide the truth. Why do you like to keep some advertisment like passages in the sos article? Together we can make a serious article out of it. Blocking somebody else who has an different POV is not a sign of good forms.

Bye, TFM

[TFM]

@TFM: judging a project's size by its weight in KB is just plain stupid. A project is judged by what it does, not by how much space it occupies in RAM. Otherwise an efficient programmer would be less worthy than someone who produces bloatware... I think I'll unprotect the Talk page because the discussion is taking an interesting turn, and also because it's not a way to prevent comments in every article.... ON SECOND THOUGHT: Guys, please let's move this discussion to the Forum, this is where it belongs. Ok?? LET'S DISCUSS IT IN THE FORUM! Oh, also: SymbOS OF COURSE is a Windows-like GUI, what are you talking about? It's as close to Windows as we can get on the CPC...

(Think this was posted by Gryzor)


How to judge a project? Now, you call my method stupid (no good forms!), but you have no better solution. The size of the source code or the binaries is something you can measure. Your proposal to judge a project by what it does sounds nice, but how can you measure it? Which features should be considered. Think that thought to its end. So my proposal is not "stupid" its one way that works. If you really know a better way then tell it.

But however, sos is just NOT the biggest retro project of the last years. This is just an exaggerated advertisment-like sentence. And its just wrong.

I think it would be just fair not only to unprotect the talk page. Pdt abuses his administrator privisegues to quieten all persons with a different oppinion. So please relieve that block.

About the Windows like gui. Please read carefully what I have tried to make better in the SOS article. I never said that it doesn't look windows like. But again pdt uses this advertisment like phrases. He writes "...a totaly MS-Windows-like GUI ". The sos gui is not totally windows like, thats just wrong. I miss very much things my windows can provide. Why don't we write what I have proposed "a superficial windows like gui". Further it would be an advantage to define the version of windows. Is it 95 or Vista? You see, this advertisments must be replaced.

TFM

[Gryzor]

I don't agree that Prodatron abused his privileges. You were flaming and vandalizing an article, so I agree with the week-long ban. I do hope this does not repeat when the ban is lifted. You can DISCUSS things instead of changing, reverting and re-reverting changes.

As for my comment: I'm sorry if my comment insulted you. But, indeed, if you think that a project's scope and size can be accurately be measured by bits and bytes... well, this IS silly. What if someone tries to solve the Life, Universe and Everything and does it within 10 lines of code? Will that be a small project then?

Also, you said (correctly) that one must look outside the CPC scene as well when judging the size of the project. Well, think about it. If we talk about 16-bit computers then how can you compare sizes? The biggest machine always wins! the CPC has 128k, the Amiga several megabytes! So your argument cannot hold in the face of your other argument. Also, don't forget that SymbOS is active in the MSX community as well.

I stand by what I said. What's more, the article reads "SymbOS is one of the largest retro computing software projects of the last years". Which is certainly true. 

Ok, about the Windows thing.I read very carefully what you wrote; the way you phrased it (it resembles superficially) is a very bad way to put what you may mean and it's obvious that you try to diminish what the developer is trying to do. I'm not going into the essence of the issue here, I'm just saying that once again you vandalized an article. If the original phrase was an advertisement your phrase was surely a defacement.

So, yes, it's more like the 95 GUI. You could write that. And yes, the 'totally' could be removed. But you chose a very bad way to do it. Right now it says "SymbOS contains a MS-Windows like GUI", which I think is 100% correct.

Oh, also your 'thanks' and references to those other veeeery mysterious CPCWiki users are quite suspicious, I must say... And even silly. If these other users are real, then let them speak for themselves instead of 'thanking them for the hint" and all that.


Btw, I unprotected the TALK page.

[TFM]

I don't agree that Prodatron abused his privileges. You were flaming and vandalizing an article, ...

It was never a problem for you to see people vandalizing my article. About the sos article, I only want to make it better and to show pdt a mirror, but I was still fair. All my updates were correct. That's not the thing I can say about some other guys here.

To block me is as unfair as can be, again! All my alterations were constructive and nothing else. Keep that in mind or just read the different versions of the sos article.

As for my comment: I'm sorry if my comment insulted you. ... well, this IS silly.

You are sorry and keep on insulting me, whats that for a behaviour??? I ignore this emotional outbreak.
I was asking you for a better alternative, you are not able to provide one. So as a scientist I would like to have something that can be measured. Your proposal is just metaphysics (you would probably say silly, but I don't want to steal your defamation).
However I'm open for a better idea. Stop defaming me, start to be constructive.

I stand by what I said. What's more, the article reads "SymbOS is one of the largest retro computing software projects of the last years". Which is certainly true. 

Surely it is true! And it is written in this way thanks to my invention. Please look at the older versions of the article. I only disagreed with the old formulation.

Ok, about the Windows thing.I read very carefully what you wrote; the way you phrased it (it resembles superficially) is a very bad way to put what you may mean and it's obvious that you try to diminish what the developer is trying to do. I'm not going into the essence of the issue here, I'm just saying that once again you vandalized an article. If the original phrase was an advertisement your phrase was surely a defacement.

Maybe your English is not so good. Ok, I try to explain. The word "superficially" means the surface of something. Since sos and Windows (which version ever) use different CPUs and different data structures of the screen (V-RAM! etc.) a comparison or the GUIs can only be made by analyzing the optical impressions (what is superficially) and by analyzing the functions.
So, superficially both GUIs have a high similarity. But thinking about functions, I still miss very much in SymbOS, that is provided by Win95.

Oh, also your 'thanks' and references to those other veeeery mysterious CPCWiki users are quite suspicious, I must say... And even silly. If these other users are real, then let them speak for themselves instead of 'thanking them for the hint" and all that.

Well, indeed the other user Xyran80 would like to speak for himself. At the moment this guy is sitting not so far away from me and he is very angry, because pdt has revertet his constructive comments and pdt has also blocked him. Oh, please call him at the phone, he tells me, he looks forward to have a personal talk with you. You can reach him at USA-(504)-988-3091. 504 is the area code, when calling frome nearer, what is cheaper, you don't need him. To best time to call is 7-9 a.m. or 8-10 p.m middle USA time zone (means germany + 7 hours). Else you an provide a telephone number to Xyran80@yahoo.de (yes, he is from germany too and was comming with me to New Orleans to do molecular biology. And as an very intelligent person and a scientist too he thinks logical, so that's what makes us thinking similar).

Bye,
TFM

[Prodatron]

It was never a problem for you to see people vandalizing my article. About the SymbOS article, I only want to make it better and to show pdt a mirror, but I was still fair. All my updates were correct. That's not the thing I can say about some other guys here.

Let's summarize again, what happend. You were adding a new hardware in your support list, which was completely unknown to the CPC scene. So people asked you, what kind of hardware this should be. I also asked you this question, and if this hardware really exist. It shaped up as the name of the prototype of the SYMBiFACE III, and that it has to be handled confidently!

So you made two mistakes:
- you added a hardware to your list, which is not supported by Fos. It seems, that you didn't even know about the features of this hardware, otherwise you wouldn't add it. There are even no programming specifications about the SYMBiFACE III available yet, so how is it possible to support it in an existing software???
- you were not allowed to post anything about this prototype, including its name. Dr.Zed relyed on you, when talking to you about this project, and you broke his trust in you.

So Dr.Zed was quite angry about that and reverted the article. And what did happen now?
Instead of beeing sorry for this really bad behaviour, you started to attack ME! I just asked you to write something more specific about this hardware, and you answered, that I would fall you in your back, that it was a mistake to show me your FDC routines blablabla?!? After this you created a new fake-account called "Xyran80" and started to edit the SymbOS article. Do you really think, the people of the CPC scene are so unbelieveable stupid, that they would think, that EXACTLY in this moment a new real member is joining the CPC scene, whose only intention it is to edit the SymbOS article?? Maybe only you would believe crap like this, but nobody else. And - what happens - after blocking this fake-account you did exactly the same with your own one. Why didn't you do it directly with your real account? Now you even start to tell us a fairy tale about your fake-identity including posting a phone number (the mailbox of an office in New Orleans). How brazen can someone be? Maybe now you will even hire someone to play his role? :-D
But the story goes on. You throwed me out of your Fos list and wrote a big post about how bad I am, including the lie, I would be also a person called "Rode". I don't know who this person is, but it's so funny, that TFM, the master of the faked identities, suddenly comes with something like this! "Gorim", "ETSoft", "Xyran80" etc., maybe also "Rode" is an ID created by you just to descredit me?! I didn't count all your fake accounts, but it's sometimes funny to read your monologizes in the Fos list (between your different "characters").
But to go back to topic, I still don't understand, why you suddenly attack me. I NEVER vandalized your Fos article, I even didn't change a word here during the last years. The only thing I did was helping you bringing it in a correct format at the very beginning (you were completely overextended with the Wikitext) and doing some corrections (NOT regarding the content!).
What I also don't understand, is, why it's always only your person generating again and again such problems in the CPC scene - since more than 10 years now. And I don't think, that this will ever stop.

Bye,
Prodatron

[TFM]

Hi,

Your really got an important Point of View. If I would have written the last of your posts, it would be closer at the reality. But to make an seemingly endless story short:

- Since some time YOU attack the FOS article (with your second identity Rode, who is also a member of the SymbOS list, and he is also able to program a database for SymbOS in one day - see old posts). Do you really think people here are all stupid and believe you? I need no second identities, I just give some friends some tips. And this is just to show you, what you have done for a too long time to others.

- Just care about your SOS, and let your fingers away from my projects! Clean up your own article and I will do the same.

- In the last years its only you beting up the CPC scene. The beginning was the time we allowed you to join the CPC-IDE project, then the troubles began... and I don't want to blame you for things Pentagon has done. But to burst our team was also done by you. So you like to blame me for it? Look in the mirror.

- Last thing: The whols shit here starts only because you issued an ultimatim to me in an inappropriate, arogant and pretentious way. If you would have ask like a normal person, then there were no problems with you.

Bye, TFM

Let's summarize again, what happend. You were adding a new hardware in your support list, which was completely unknown to the CPC scene. So people asked you, what kind of hardware this should be. I also asked you this question, and if this hardware really exist. It shaped up as the name of the prototype of the SYMBiFACE III, and that it has to be handled confidently!

So you made two mistakes:
- you added a hardware to your list, which is not supported by Fos. It seems, that you didn't even know about the features of this hardware, otherwise you wouldn't add it. There are even no programming specifications about the SYMBiFACE III available yet, so how is it possible to support it in an existing software???
- you were not allowed to post anything about this prototype, including its name. Dr.Zed relyed on you, when talking to you about this project, and you broke his trust in you.

So Dr.Zed was quite angry about that and reverted the article. And what did happen now?
Instead of beeing sorry for this really bad behaviour, you started to attack ME! I just asked you to write something more specific about this hardware, and you answered, that I would fall you in your back, that it was a mistake to show me your FDC routines blablabla?!? After this you created a new fake-account called "Xyran80" and started to edit the SymbOS article. Do you really think, the people of the CPC scene are so unbelieveable stupid, that they would think, that EXACTLY in this moment a new real member is joining the CPC scene, whose only intention it is to edit the SymbOS article?? Maybe only you would believe crap like this, but nobody else. And - what happens - after blocking this fake-account you did exactly the same with your own one. Why didn't you do it directly with your real account? Now you even start to tell us a fairy tale about your fake-identity including posting a phone number (the mailbox of an office in New Orleans). How brazen can someone be? Maybe now you will even hire someone to play his role? :-D
But the story goes on. You throwed me out of your Fos list and wrote a big post about how bad I am, including the lie, I would be also a person called "Rode". I don't know who this person is, but it's so funny, that TFM, the master of the faked identities, suddenly comes with something like this! "Gorim", "ETSoft", "Xyran80" etc., maybe also "Rode" is an ID created by you just to descredit me?! I didn't count all your fake accounts, but it's sometimes funny to read your monologizes in the Fos list (between your different "characters").
But to go back to topic, I still don't understand, why you suddenly attack me. I NEVER vandalized your Fos article, I even didn't change a word here during the last years. The only thing I did was helping you bringing it in a correct format at the very beginning (you were completely overextended with the Wikitext) and doing some corrections (NOT regarding the content!).
What I also don't understand, is, why it's always only your person generating again and again such problems in the CPC scene - since more than 10 years now. And I don't think, that this will ever stop.

Bye,
Prodatron

[Gryzor]

Ok...

It was never a problem for you to see people vandalizing my article. About the sos article, I only want to make it better and to show pdt a mirror, but I was still fair. All my updates were correct. That's not the thing I can say about some other guys here.

Nobody vandalized your article. Get over it. And you didn't make the SymbOS article any better. As you yourself are saying, you wanted to show Prodatron a mirror (??), and this clouded your judgement. What's more, you continuously reverted the changes, which is something that constitutes a wiki-fight and is totally inappropriate. As I said before, you should have discussed the issue instead of causing all the fuss out of the blue.

You are sorry and keep on insulting me, whats that for a behaviour??? I ignore this emotional outbreak.
I was asking you for a better alternative, you are not able to provide one. So as a scientist I would like to have something that can be measured. Your proposal is just metaphysics (you would probably say silly, but I don't want to steal your defamation).

*Sigh*... I am a scientist, my dad was a scientist, my grandfather was a scientist... and what I know is, what you're saying is NOT the thinking of a scientist but that of a technician. The problem with science, you see, is that not everything is quantifiable at all times. Sometimes you have to put your better judgment in work.
See, I'm an economist. People may say that it's an exact enough science, but it's not. I remember a European summer school I had attended while at uni; precisely because you cannot reach conclusions purely by looking at numbers but you also have to factor the human nature in and my work there was of this nature, the professors labeled me a 'political economist. And that was a good thing.
Same here. Can you really quantify ambition, influence, functionality, innovation, wow factor? Of course not. So if you are going to stick to your kb argument (which is stupid, as I said! How can it compare to other machines' projects that have much more memory to work with??? Even the smallest windows game is many times bigger than anything we do here!!! Why is it so hard to get?) just label it "a medium-size code-wise project". This would be much more accurate. It's STILL one of the biggest projects across all platforms.

However I'm open for a better idea. Stop defaming me, start to be constructive.

Quote from: Gryzor on 12-12-2008, 11:57:30
I stand by what I said. What's more, the article reads "SymbOS is one of the largest retro computing software projects of the last years". Which is certainly true. 

Surely it is true! And it is written in this way thanks to my invention. Please look at the older versions of the article. I only disagreed with the old formulation.

Huh? I just read the 2006 version: http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php?title=SymbOS&oldid=7895 and it reads: "SymbOS belongs to the largest retro computing software projects of the last years.".

So... exactly what is the difference?

But even if there was a difference and somehow you made it better yourself, the fact that this edit was allowed shows that we're not averse to proper corrections.

Maybe your English is not so good. Ok, I try to explain. The word "superficially" means the surface of something. Since sos and Windows (which version ever) use different CPUs and different data structures of the screen (V-RAM! etc.) a comparison or the GUIs can only be made by analyzing the optical impressions (what is superficially) and by analyzing the functions.
So, superficially both GUIs have a high similarity. But thinking about functions, I still miss very much in SymbOS, that is provided by Win95.

Hahaha! Dude, do you really wanna compare our linguistic skills? Please don't...

Ok, on the matter at hand. Maybe your English is not so good, but "superficial" has a derogatory meaning. What's more, you can go on for as long as you like on technical differences like CPUs and OS layers and whatnot, but the original quote was: "(...)and a totaly MS-Windows-like GUI". So it already said that:
a. it only refers to what you see, which is the ***GUI*** and no one gives a crap about the underlying technical factors and
b.  it's ***LIKE*** the Windows GUI, NOT EXACTLY THE SAME!

So maybe now you see why your remark about the superficial nature was not only superfluous but also insulting as well. Man, it was just so obvious that you tried to get back at it (as you yourself admitted), not correct any inaccuracies...

Now, about Xyran: as if I'm going to start calling. And as if it's impossible to log on to some site from another IP (gee, I wonder what this cgi proxy I have running at home does...). I can, of course, provide a telephone number – and someone may call me and again it will prove nothing.

Since you're both scientists and can put two and two together, I guess you're familiar with Ockham's razor. Heck, it's been around for 700 years or so. Well, on one had we may have a disgruntled user creating fake IDs to support his views; or, there might be another user, who whispers hints and starts editing at the very same time and in the very same manner, using the very same language as you do and doing very similar mistakes in his use of English. Hmmmmm... too many coincidences for my scientific liking, wouldn't you agree Watson?

Now, in the off-chance (about .01% as I see it) that he exists indeed, I unblocked the account. He's also always welcome to come here to the forum and state his opinions, not?

Cheers
Gryzor

[Prodatron]

- Since some time YOU attack the FOS article (with your second identity Rode, who is also a member of the SymbOS list, and he is also able to program a database for SymbOS in one day - see old posts). Do you really think people here are all stupid and believe you?

This conclusion is just great! Do you really think, that people are not able to code something for SymbOS? Rode was only one of several guys, who coded, or at least started to code something. People like TrebMint, Dr.Zed, Nerlaska, NYYRIKKI, Edwin, ZilogMonkey blablabla did this, why should other ones not beeing able to do it? (I am sorry, that it doesn't work like this for your Fos...)
Anyway, I checked the old SymbOS list entries, and this is what I read about Rodes database: Of course he didn't code it in one day (why did you state this??). Everything I saw then was one screenshot or so. Oh, and he used the SymShell environment for his database. Every stupid CP/M program can be ported in a quite easy way to this environment! Simple text input/output, usual file access, and that's it more or less.
I also checked for his activities in the CPC-Wiki now. When I see this ( http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Rode ), I have to say, that he contributed more to the CPCWiki in general, than you ever did during the whole time...

I need no second identities, I just give some friends some tips.

Sure...

- Just care about your SOS, and let your fingers away from my projects! Clean up your own article and I will do the same.

I care(d) about the whole CPCWiki, not only about my own stuff. I made much more than 1000 contributions, and most of them were NOT SymbOS specific! Especially at the beginning I helped Gryzor and Kanga to build up the Wiki to make it to the #1 CPC knowledge database in the internet. To read SUCH a sentence from a person, whose ONLY intention it is to push and blow-up his own article in the Wiki and doing nothing else here, really sucks! A few days ago, you wrote in this forum, that you would donate of course for the CPCWiki, but now, as Prodatron is the bad guy here, you will not do it. LOL! Why didn't you donate during all the last monthes here? Why are you so false-faced?

- In the last years its only you beting up the CPC scene. The beginning was the time we allowed you to join the CPC-IDE project, then the troubles began... and I don't want to blame you for things Pentagon has done. But to burst our team was also done by you. So you like to blame me for it? Look in the mirror.

Are you completely mad now? What bad things did I do to the CPC-IDE list? Implementing the FAT12/16/32 file system in 2004 for the IDE interface, while you were doing nothing? In the past and until today you are not able to implement this hardware (even after I gave you my IDE routines, and even after you made so much annoying announcements a la "It's coming now, it's coming now!" on CSA8, in your fos list etc. etc. in all these years). You didn't contribute to this project beside telling Dr.Zed, which port could be used (but then he still made the ports configurable). Anyway 99% of the work was of course done by Dr.Zed.

- Last thing: The whols shit here starts only because you issued an ultimatim to me in an inappropriate, arogant and pretentious way. If you would have ask like a normal person, then there were no problems with you.

No, that was only a factual sentence. You know, that your "support" list already contains some hardware, which is not really supported - as an example the CPC-Booster or the IDE part of the SYMBiFACE II (I am saying here: "not really" - of course you know some port addresses and can do some experimental INs and OUTs - but this is also possible in Basic btw.). Adding more and more not supported (or even not existing) hardware doesn't improve the article. That was the reason why I wrote this.

Bye,
Prodatron

[Gryzor]

Hm, I forgot to reply to this one.

- Just care about your SOS, and let your fingers away from my projects! Clean up your own article and I will do the same.

Man, have you seen Prod's contributions to the wiki? And you're the one telling him to jus care about SymbOS? You just don't get one thing: SymbOS and SF and the Wiki are entirely different projects! Prodatron has been very helpful since the beginning and it's completely crazy to think there's politics and conflicts of interest here...

- Last thing: The whols shit here starts only because you issued an ultimatim to me in an inappropriate, arogant and pretentious way. If you would have ask like a normal person, then there were no problems with you.

So... wait, are you saying that everything you did was because you were insulted? Even if that was true, do you realize what it means for your arguments???

[TFM]

Sorry guys,

You don't provide any new arguments. It may be that Gryzor has the better slang (if somebody is defaming another person it's just slang and not 'speech'), it also may be that in some of Pdts untruth some true points may be hidden. To discuss that in detail I have not enough time. And as mentioned before this discussion now is really fruitless.
So I will continue to do something for the CPC! Any other things would be a waste of my rare spare time.
However, you guys should - both - think about what I've sayd, you must not answer here, it's enough when you start to open your mind and try to see the world from another POV. That can't be that demanding, isn't it?

[Gryzor]

Well, if you're asking others to open their minds to other PoVs you should maybe open your mind first to accept other criteria than dry numbers... just an idea.

PS 'slang' means a totally different thing than what you're trying to say...

[TFM]

Do you really think, that people are not able to code something for SymbOS? Rode was only one of several guys, who coded, or at least started to code something. People like TrebMint, Dr.Zed, Nerlaska, NYYRIKKI, Edwin, ZilogMonkey blablabla did this, why should other ones not beeing able to do it? (I am sorry, that it doesn't work like this for your Fos...)

So how much of this guys are just another Pseudo of you?

For FutureOS it works much better than you think, a bunch of people is supporting it. Have a look in the FutureOS ML (I'm sure you still have one of your other identities inside).

And if you want to compare SOS with FutureOS, then you just can compare Windows with Linux or OS2.

I will help you with this...

SOS is a good system for people who like and know windows, so they don't must learn anything new. It has nice background pictures and nice icons. So it's colorfull and blinking, people like that. The mainstream user will take it.
Well, you still think that the SP should only be used in demos for different things and not in an OS. Right, so that defines the limintations of SOS.

Now to FutureOS... it doesn't need to catch you with dragons and colors, it doesn't need this so called WoW effect. Why? Easy to explain. It is supposed to run on only one computer, with clear defined hardware. And it is able to get all the power out of this machine that is possible. Therefore it is called an UltraOS, not only an OS.
It is not supposed to comply peoples expectations, it's just supposed to be the fastest and best OS for the CPC. And therefore the SP register is used for different things, therefore you can use ALL registers of the Z80, therefore you can use IM2, therefore you can work with nearly all hardware for the CPC. It's possible to contiue this list for a very long time.

So finally, you should be glad with SOS and I'm glad with FOS. If you stop fighting me, then nothing bad will come from me. I always try to treat people like they treat me.

Bye,
TFM

[TFM]

Well, if you're asking others to open their minds to other PoVs you should maybe open your mind first to accept other criteria than dry numbers... just an idea.

You are right, but misunderstood me before. Like you I would also prefer to use something else than dry numbers. But the examples you provide are seen different from every person. For example a WoW factor is for someone high and for someone low. So you will never be able to bring all people under one hat.

PS 'slang' means a totally different thing than what you're trying to say...

p.s.: Have a look at this...
http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=on&chinese=both&pinyin=diacritic&search=slang&relink=on

There is explained, what the word slang could mean, sorry it's in german, but your german is good enough I think.

[Prodatron]

You don't provide any new arguments.

Sure TFM. Seems to be a good way for you to finish this discussion.

However, you guys should - both - think about what I've sayd, you must not answer here, it's enough when you start to open your mind and try to see the world from another POV. That can't be that demanding, isn't it?

"Amen"...

So how much of this guys are just another Pseudo of you?

Please tell these people, that they are fakes. I wonder, what they will do with you...

For FutureOS it works much better than you think, a bunch of people is supporting it. Have a look in the FutureOS ML (I'm sure you still have one of your other identities inside).

As you kicked me out, I am not getting emails from your Fos list anymore, but as you know you don't need an account to read it. So it's quite easy for everyone to get an idea about how other people (not) support your Fos

And if you want to compare SymbOS with FutureOS, then you just can compare Windows with Linux or OS2.

I would NEVER compare SymbOS with your Fos. And beside of the reasons, why I never did it and why I would never do it, it's so funny to read this sentence: "then you just can compare Windows with Linux". You haven't ANY clue about operating systems, have you? How can you compare Linux with your Fos? Ah, yes: Because Linux is using text output sometimes. Cool!
To see it in relation, did you know, that Linux is 99% like SymbOS and 1% like Fos? Linux has memory management, multiple task/threads - multitasking, message handling and semaphores, multiple file handlers, hardware independency etc, etc. I think there are also other things you never heard about like input/output redirections etc. SymbOS has all of this, too, Fos has NOTHING of these things. Linux runs on platforms like a PC or a mobile phone, SymbOS runs on a PCW Joyce or an MSX and so on.

I will help you with this... SymbOS is a good system for people who like and know windows, so they don't must learn anything new. It has nice background pictures and nice icons. So it's colorfull and blinking, people like that. The mainstream user will take it.

Thanx for your great help.
First: Do you know the term "hackneyed"? It's a completely hackneyed way, how you defame SymbOS because of its GUI ("it's colorfull and blinking..."). As I wrote before, SymbOS has a lot more components, and the desktop manager is really not the main part of the system. Of course you didn't understand this (what was obvious).
Second: Why did you paint and use all this strange-designed icons for your own "Fos desktop"? In your sentence above it seems, that icons are bad. Why do you use them by yourself, and in such a bad way? It's not only quite slow to click yours ones with the mouse pointer (there is no way to do it with keyboard short-cuts!). Also instead of being understandable, people have to learn first, what they "could" mean. And as an example there are even two "OK"/"GO"(?)-buttons: Some programs crash the whole CPC (!), if you hit the wrong one in a special situation.

Now to FutureOS... it doesn't need to catch you with dragons and colors, it doesn't need this so called WoW effect. Why? Easy to explain. It is supposed to run on only one computer, with clear defined hardware. And it is able to get all the power out of this machine that is possible. Therefore it is called an UltraOS, not only an OS.

Fos is an "UltraOS, not only an OS"... TFM, sometimes I really like your comical style

Well, you still think that the SP should only be used in demos for different things and not in an OS. Right, so that defines the limintations of SymbOS. [...] Now to FutureOS... [...] It is not supposed to comply peoples expectations, it's just supposed to be the fastest and best OS for the CPC. And therefore the SP register is used for different things, therefore you can use ALL registers of the Z80,

In contrast to you I HAVE coded demos for the CPC. I know, how to use the 2nd register set and the stackpointer for implementing fast routines.
It's already annoying, in which way you name a missing feature again and again an "advantage" of your Fos in all your posts. Every stupid Z80 program can disable the interupts and use all first/second/blabla registers and the Stackpointer in the way it likes - in ANY operating system/Z80 environment. Fos doesn't provide interrupt handling at all (which was already very important in the 70ies) or even multitasking, and you call this an advantage?? Yes, a Z80 programmer has the most freedom - and WORK, if the environment (or "OS", how you call it) is doing nothing. Great stuff!

therefore you can use IM2, therefore you can work with nearly all hardware for the CPC. It's possible to contiue this list for a very long time.

"Nearly all hardware for the CPC"... WHY do you add hardware in your Fos articel, which you do not really support? Is there a competition with a big price to win for the one, who has the most? What's about just telling the truth??

Bye,
Prodatron

[Gryzor]

Well, it's all very interesting dear TFM, because at last you admit what it's all about: whether FOS or SymbOS is better.

...well, guess what: NOONE GIVES A DAMN BUT YOU!!! Both are great CPC projects and, as such they both deserve our attention and love. You seem to be in some sort of need to 'prove' that your project is better. Well, guess what, it's NOT. It's different. It's totally different. I wouldn't compare them, as you're trying to do. Please get out of your inferiority complex; the sooner you do that, the better for all of us and for FutureOS as well.

That said, I have some insight to offer: I've used FutureOS and I find it very nice, very retro and very ambitious. But in one thing you're right: it's like Linux vs Windows. Maybe Linux is more stable, maybe this, maybe that, but in the end what is 'better' is defined by the end-user's experience. And in that regard, Windows is undoubtedly better*.

At a recent retro expo here in Athens I had two CPCs running; one had a SFII attached and was running SymbOS and the other was running FutureOS. Of course people gravitated towards the SymCPC. But more seasoned users also took a long look at FutureOS and I explained it to them. For me, FutureOS is not as much an OS as it is a front-end. I'm not trying to get technical here, and I know I haven't used FutureOS in its full extend, but that's what it feels like. What's more, I highly doubt it fulfills the definition of a GUI: drawing a few icons does not constitute a GUI (open issue for debate) since it's still very, very restricted in terms of graphical functionality.

Oh well. Now that you showed that the only thing you're trying to do is prove that FOS is better than SymbOS I hope we can let it rest because frankly (as I said) no one cares which one is the better OS. We love them both. Please.

Themis

PS Please, don't try to tutor me; I have lived in the UK and I have actually teached English. I know precisely what slang means, and I know the way you used the term 'slang'. However, it's an extremely stretched interpretation of the word that is never used. Slang refers to unofficial, sometimes impromptu, language that can be as good as bad in its use and intentions. That's true for, like, 99.999% of the cases used. I'd be very interested to see an example of the word being used otherwise...

PS2 Even Andreas told you that you should provide proof... and you just started ranting again about how FutureOS is better than SymbOS. GET OVER IT, man! And the reason that Prodatron banned you TEMPORARILY (and DID NOT KICK YOU OUT) of the wiki is one I agree with - to stop the wiki fight. It was the RIGHT move. Please learn how collaboratory media work.

*even Ubuntu, which is supposed to be the easiest one to configure and use, has given me tremendous trouble in the past just to install it with the options I wanted; and after starting using it I had to jump in and out of console windows and input arcane commands to get things started; and even these commands sometimes worked, sometimes they didn't for different users... the heck with it.

[Gryzor]

TFM, I reverted your reversion of my revision (does this even make sense? ). Again you are trolling and you reverted changes WITHOUT EVEN READING THEM. There were several corrections pertaining to wrong language, awkward phrasing, off topic sentences etc, but you just rolled everything back.  Unless you want the article locked once more STOP IT NOW.

The UI is NOT a GUI. There are many more elements that define a GUI. Yours is a user interface that takes just a couple of a GUI's notions (icons in text mode, plus the mouse pointer, and iconcs needn't even be icons! They could just be commands! So, essentially, their functionality is not that of an icon.) and that's about it. It's missing a major feature (windows) and several other lesser ones that have come to define a GUI.

In my mind this does NOT constitute a GUI. And, certainly, there is NO desktop! Go read some stuff on human/machine interaction and user interface metaphors. Where the hell do you see a desktop? Oh yes, and stop trying to tutor me - again. This doesn't win you any friends. You may think it makes you appear smart, turning things that others have said on their head (like discussing things first), or 'showing them a mirror' or whatever, but guess what, I do know a bit more about how to keep this wiki running.

[Gryzor]

TFM blocked for another week. Let's see how long this goes on for...It's unbelievable!!!

Dude, do you realise that you're not only reverting issues having to do with FutureOS but also REINSERTING grammar and other mistakes? Do you even BOTHER read what I have corrected in your article???

Oh, another thought on UI: as Prodatron pointed out, since it's a matter of Linux vs Windows (this is so absurd, but I'll play along here), how come and you're so obsessed to convince everybody that a few text-mode icons constitute a GUI???

I have given many arguments, to which you have not bothered replying. So F*CKING STOP TUTORING ME AND TELLING ME TO DISCUSS THINGS, I'M JUST *********SICK OF YOUR BEHAVIOR*************** and it makes you sound really stupid, too.

How can I make it more clear?

[Gryzor]

Well, well. I just received the following message:

Hi,
You talk about spelling, I talk about changing GUI to UI. Be honest, the change of the spelling ist only the alibi for crippling the article. Gryzor you had your fun, it's good now. Stop it!

Of course for yet another time you understand nothing. I talk about spelling because you're so blinded that you revert anything that someone does on the FutureOS article just because you want it to be just YOUR way. Even language corrections. So you automatically lose all rights to it, since you turn it into a battleground with no regards whatsoever to the wiki's quality standards.

Alibi? Crippling the article? Man, have you even read it to see how much better it is now? Why not answer to all the arguments instead?

I had my fun? Man, I'm so pissed off right now I'm tempted to ban you for good. So you think I'm having FUN, you ignorant fool? You think it's fun trying to keep the whole thing together and watching every idiot who sees the wiki as a platform to launch his own opinions? Gawd...

And, just because you seem to be suffering from poor eyesight:

A FEW ICONS ON ONE PART OF THE SCREEN DO NOT MAKE A GUI!!! GO READ SOME, MATE!

[TFM]

The wiser head gives in!

[TFM]

The UI is NOT a GUI. There are many more elements that define a GUI.  ..... snip ...

So YOU want to define what a GUI is? You really like to play God, isn't it?

What a fun must it be for you to ban my account again.

But people know that gui only means graphical user interface. So what's this? It's nothing else that a connection between the user and the computer, which is using graphic elements.

And you told it by your self, FutureOS has no command line. But it uses a mouse pointer and icons. So it is a nothng else that a graphical user interface.

[TFM]

The wiser head gives in!

So, I really shouldn't write anymore, it makes no sense. Since you - Dear gryzor - are totally teaching resistent.

I know, you don't like to be teached by me, but you really bleedy need it.

But let's speakt the Wiki for me. Now what is a GUI?

Read carefully AND LEARN!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_user_interface

TFM (Gryzors teacher ;-)

[Gryzor]

You know, all this trying to tutor me and advising me... do you really not understand that it's not in your best interest? Tsk...

Nice try with the new user you created. Not only did you use the same IP that you use for your TFM account but again you used the same kind of language and again you reverted changes that had to do with the structure of the article (in the original you had some off-topic sentences in the wrong sections, and I moved them). Better than before though, you're getting more careful. Good.

Now, wow, you discovered Wikipedia! Good for you. Let's see what it says:

A graphical user interface (GUI) (IPA: /ˈguːiː/) is a type of user interface which allows people to interact with electronic devices [..]. A GUI offers graphical icons, and visual indicators as opposed to text-based interfaces, typed command labels or text navigation to fully represent the information and actions available to a user. The actions are usually performed through direct manipulation of the graphical elements.

Well, as I said, you don't have icons. An icon is a little image that represents, say, files, or disks, or folders. You have a mixture of several buttons with what can pas as icons and other icons that represent functions. And all these are drawn in text mode. There are no windows. There are no menus. So? Read on further down the wikipedia article. It mentions WIMP, a windowing system and others, all of which FutureOS lacks. And, please, this is not a Desktop... Desktop is a metaphor (I think I said it before) and yours is anythig but.

As I said before: since you look down at SymbOS and don't consider it a serious OS with its bells and whistles, why do you try so desparately to convince us that FutureOS has a GUI? I thought that, according to your logic, the GUI is a bad, and not serious, thing!

So.. do you really insist on calling it a GUI? If you put everything in perspective and put the two OSes side by side, do you still want to call it a GUI? If you answer yes, then I will change the article to say it's got a GUI. OK?

[Ygdrazil]

Hi there

I will not continue this rather childish discussion about which operating system is the best (SymbOS or FutureOS) - as Gryzor said somewhere else most people simply don't care! What I care about is the seriousness of the CPC scene, and that it is fun to participate in a comunity that helps its members and encourage constructive activities around the CPC! And this discussion is not serving this purpose at all!

I don't know TFM, Prodatron nor Gryzor well, but from this discussion thread it is obvious that TFM is either trolling or simply trying to sabotage any constructive dialog (or in the worst case being the most narrow minded scientist I have ever met). TFM is not showing any signs of reflecting on criticism at all. It is as if TFM per definition is considering any criticism on FutureOS as pure evil. Again and again TFM is restating his arguments, and introducing an ever increasing degree of negative tone!

TFM wants to teach, by doing so he is changing the relationship between the forum members from that of equals to that of a teacher-student (which is not that of equals - the teacher traditionally holds the truth), and does not constitute an argument in it self (teachers are making mistakes too). This is not acceptable especially when asked to stop. Calling himself the teacher of Gryzor is purely provocation - and was hopefully meant as a joke!

As for a GUI being present in FutureOS, this is not the case. Even though the definition of a GUI is not a trivial one, the quote given by TFM states that a GUI offers graphical Icons. There is at most 2 icons on the user interface of FutureOS. If the large letters and textboxes were icons! Why write the "function" of the underlying functionality. A icon is fundamentally a pictogram.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_icon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictogram

The lacking of a GUI in FutureOS is necessarily not a bad thing, it might even to be considered a force! But TFM insisting it to be a GUI is simply weird!

I hope xmas peace will arrive at the CPCWIKI this year to!

Regards,
Ygdrazil

PS. I am not a fake identity!

So, I really shouldn't write anymore, it makes no sense. Since you - Dear gryzor - are totally teaching resistent.

I know, you don't like to be teached by me, but you really bleedy need it.

But let's speakt the Wiki for me. Now what is a GUI?

Read carefully AND LEARN!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_user_interface

TFM (Gryzors teacher ;-)

[TFM]

Listen to me son,

I created the surface of FutureOS in a time without Macintosh, without Windows or whatever. In this time the CPC scene was really open minded and cool.
In this time, everybody knows that FutureOS has a graphical surface, even if nearly nobody calls it a GUI, the abbreviation was not commen known.

And FutureOS (still) just has a graphical user interface, all the WIMP stuff was developped later. So your young guys want to know what is right or wrong, but you don't know nothing about where things have come from.

You and Gryzor behave like students in the first semester. You know it all. But wait some years, wisdome will also come to you, but seemingly very slow.

And about teaching, Gryzor starts to try to teach me again and again in english. You don't read it? Why?

You jump in this discussion and troll aginst me. You choose your side clear. Yes, you're probably an second identity.

What else would be there to say?


We could finish all this discussions very peacefully. Just let it be a GUI in the FutureOS article (what it actually is) and I will accept yours all other opinions and changes and what ever you want.

So if you want to end it, just revert the FutureOS article to the uncrippled form, that means change UI to GUI. Then I will be more than pleased.

That's my idea for an compromise, now it's on you!

TFM / FS

Hi there

I will not continue this rather childish discussion about which operating system is the best (SymbOS or FutureOS) - as Gryzor said somewhere else most people simply don't care! What I care about is the seriousness of the CPC scene, and that it is fun to participate in a comunity that helps its members and encourage constructive activities around the CPC! And this discussion is not serving this purpose at all!

I don't know TFM, Prodatron nor Gryzor well, but from this discussion thread it is obvious that TFM is either trolling or simply trying to sabotage any constructive dialog (or in the worst case being the most narrow minded scientist I have ever met). TFM is not showing any signs of reflecting on criticism at all. It is as if TFM per definition is considering any criticism on FutureOS as pure evil. Again and again TFM is restating his arguments, and introducing an ever increasing degree of negative tone!

TFM wants to teach, by doing so he is changing the relationship between the forum members from that of equals to that of a teacher-student (which is not that of equals - the teacher traditionally holds the truth), and does not constitute an argument in it self (teachers are making mistakes too). This is not acceptable especially when asked to stop. Calling himself the teacher of Gryzor is purely provocation - and was hopefully meant as a joke!

As for a GUI being present in FutureOS, this is not the case. Even though the definition of a GUI is not a trivial one, the quote given by TFM states that a GUI offers graphical Icons. There is at most 2 icons on the user interface of FutureOS. If the large letters and textboxes were icons! Why write the "function" of the underlying functionality. A icon is fundamentally a pictogram.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_icon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictogram

The lacking of a GUI in FutureOS is necessarily not a bad thing, it might even to be considered a force! But TFM insisting it to be a GUI is simply weird!

I hope xmas peace will arrive at the CPCWIKI this year to!

Regards,
Ygdrazil

PS. I am not a fake identity!

[TFM]

So.. do you really insist on calling it a GUI? If you put everything in perspective and put the two OSes side by side, do you still want to call it a GUI? If you answer yes, then I will change the article to say it's got a GUI. OK?

May its better you let me change it... Afterwards you will have no problem and time enought to correct my 100s of spelling errors and what ever you want..... But if you 'correct' it then it probably will contain some more of these partial hidden defamations like 'FutureOS stands somewhere in the middle between a console interface and a fully-fledged GUI'.

Don't think I don't know the meaning of fully-fledged. I don't want to teach you in any way, but I can image what you would say if I would have used your sentence in another article.

And you really can't talk about a console. Consoles are slow, therefore no console will be used in FutureOS. Ok, sometimes you have to enter filenames, that's all.

By the way, you can use all menues with the joystick f.e. you don't need the keyboard.


The graphical user interface of FutureOS (the mouse pointer is enough to make it graphical, because you DON'T use the keyboard) is constructed in a way in that the user can reach its targets very fast. Now, which main targets has a user:

- Start a program

- Do data / file management

Therefore it is constructed and it works fast. That's just what it shall do.

And it shall look similar at every FutureOS CPC. So you don't have to search for your icons like when working with an different PC.

Yes, also the window in which the files are shown is fixed in size. Even if you don't call it window (for some reasons you will surely find fast...) it makes the system fast and effective. Again it look similar on every CPC, an advantage if you be honest.

The icons consist of graphics and are NOT displayed by using any textmode chars. Indeed between system .7 and system .8 the number of graphic icons have been reduced to free space for the implemention of new routines. I don't tell which routines I'm talking about else I had to beat me around with pdt again.

Bye the way... @pdt: The sense of the second register set is to provide a possibility to use a kind of a parallel processor inside the Z80 and NOT to be forced to use the PUSH / POP commands. You still treat the Z80 like the 8080, therefore you still haven't understood what the clue of FutureOS is.
Your SOS is really a big, interesting and good project. But if you must tell all people at every meeting what kind of crap FutureOS is, then you must not wonder that I shoot back. Easy? Isn't it?
Oh, and just in the case you would like to ask, these sceners (I treat names confidential) come to me and tell me what you"re telling around. I usual don't care about that.