Where is TotO?

[ASiC]

@Gryzor


So my understanding is that this *is* an open court since post #1 but the other party refused to defend their case...
Maybe because the sentence had already been carried...?


Anyway, what's done is done.
I'm just hopping that Bryce and TotO will talk this over and Lady Peace rule the Kingdom once more 

[zhulien]

As far as I am concerned, ToTo hasn't scammed anyone or been dishonest, so whatever... People in the real world fight or argue... we don't exile them.  All that has happened, is whoever decided to exile ToTo has now alienated others also for no good reason.

[GFXOR]

If that had been the case it would be slightly different, but the people he contacted were both people who had ordered one of my devices.

You are talking about... only 2 people ?
I am dreaming. For sure...

[robcfg]

I appreciate TotO and his work, so I was quite surprised when I got his message.

Bryce hasn't been dishonest or scammed anyone either.

And TotO wasn't exiled. He did a mistake and was banned a short time as a result.

Seriously, let's cut the drama and learn the lesson so it won't happen again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pelrun]

TotO did something crappy, and was *mildly* reprimanded for it. He then threw a tantrum and closed his store. People here seem to be blaming Bryce and Gryzor for that result, when it was TotO's own decision to do it - and it was a shitty move explicitly meant to provoke this sort of drama.

Don't vilify the mods and give TotO a free pass just because he provided a service to the community. Bryce and Gryzor also provide vital services, sometimes out of their own pocket, and you don't see them closing the forums and storming off just because they have to deal with a bit of criticism.

Also, don't confuse TotO storming off with him being "exiled". We've only got the one exile and he behaved awfully for many years before finally being permabanned. TotO's done nothing at that level and it's purely up to him if he comes back or not.

[Dagger]

Think the last 2 post say it all. Let the dust settle as time is a great healer.

[remax]

@Bryce : Your hardware was presented on this forum : ok. But what Toto seemed to do was only to give advices privately to some friends, what he can do. I know him very well and I usually trust his knowledge in HW.

Whatever he thinks about your product, whatever the quality of your produc : what I can understand in this forum is that this problem DOES NOT concern the forum. So the banishment is unfair, is far as I can understand the problem (english is a bit hard to me). This BAN is insulting.

You can consider that the chinese product has not the quality requested, or you can regret that Toto gives advices by mail to the people he knows, there is no problem about the forum.

I might have another reaction if he paid a 30 seconds campaign on the TV to insult the lovely Amstrad CPC. But that never happened.

But what I know is that you never can say anything wrong about a project on a CPC forum. It seems to be a hiden rule. So if he didn't like your HW, he might just have kept silent (I guess).

The BAN is an overreaction. You should maybe have open a thread about the chinese product to compare it instead of the BAN...

Do you really think Toto would have had no reaction if the same has been done to him ?

[zhulien]

As an administrator of a forum, if you do anything privately, users will always think that you are doing something shady on their back, so I think bringing the issue to the light was the right thing to do.

While I don't doubt of TotO's good intentions, the way he did it was wrong.

It's not that there's a silent rule to not criticize any hardware development, it's that if you don't do it in the public thread, you're backstabbing the developer without a chance to defend himself.

To make a mistake is quite common, but we learn from them. So let's learn from this and keep the CPC love coming!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is all an opinion anyway.  It is like piracy on CPC.  It is a farce to think it is ok sometimes and not other times... even though off topic, this forum and of course Wiki set of pages seems to be a piracy promotor...  So, you don't like someone in your words 'backstabbing' a developer, but you are ok with piracy on a grand scale?  What a joke - or... perhaps let everyone have their own opinion.

[Gryzor]

Erm... you're way off topic @zhulien , stretching it way too far to just say something that's on your mind.

[ot]
But, just for the heck of it: there's nothing promoting 'piracy' on the wiki, and although we could spend hundreds and hundreds of pages discussing this like it has been done for the last 20 years, point in fact is we're standing at ethically sound ground. If a developer who has a still valid copyright feels like it he can ask us to withdraw any titles with no question. If you think that offering old titles within a much bigger community than ours alone, where old devs are happily participating, is somehow 'piracy' or 'stealing' or 'backstabbing' the devs, then by all means, feel free to leave from such a despicable place.[/ot]

[zhulien]

Erm... you're way off topic @zhulien , stretching it way too far to just say something that's on your mind.


But, just for the heck of it: there's nothing promoting 'piracy' on the wiki, and although we could spend hundreds and hundreds of pages discussing this like it has been done for the last 20 years, point in fact is we're standing at ethically sound ground. If a developer who has a still valid copyright feels like it he can ask us to withdraw any titles with no question. If you think that offering old titles within a much bigger community than ours alone, where old devs are happily participating, is somehow 'piracy' or 'stealing' or 'backstabbing' the devs, then by all means, feel free to leave from such a despicable place.

It must have been my imagination that it is hosting (or linking) to lots of game ROMs converted to GX4000 'without' promoting the fact that probably not every single one of them has permission from the copyright holders - or the fact that the moderators here don't ban someone from promoting CPC Games CDs full of um... pirated? games?  For the record, I don't care about piracy, new or old - I will do what doesn't get me in trouble with the law, it is not about any ethics for me and proudly to say it.  I collect games because I like the original physical thing, but I don't give a hoot who pirates - but the standard of banning someone because their actions are unliked by someone but then allowing others to do what is clearly illegal is not credible either.

[Shaun M. Neary]

That was handled pretty badly. I've done my time as admin on several forums over the years.


You don't ban someone, bring an issue to light to the rest of forum to make judgment, and then say "it's only temporary, he'll be back to explain his side when the band expires". That's actually the most ass-backwards way of going about it.


If it's going to be brought to public light, then everyone should have their side explained at the same time.


In my experience, it's already blown when a statement begins with "Before you hear it elsewhere, etc, etc." Because it means you're getting a one sided story right off the bat. I'm not saying that Bryce is either right or wrong, but if you were TotO, would you bother returning after reading this thread to say your piece after reading six pages of this? I certainly wouldn't, regardless of how good (or bad) my intentions are.


We've shot first, and then asked questions later, and that's a really bad precident to set for a community forum in my honest opinion.
Admins police their forum, not the scene that it's involved with.

[MaV]

Shaun has a point. It probably would have been better to openly discuss what has happened with ToTO, then decide.

I'm a bit confused here, though. TotO did close his shop a few days ago while he wasn't banned, right? It looks to be unrelated to all this for someone who has not had an inkling of knowledge of it.

[pelrun]

bring an issue to light to the rest of forum to make judgment,

This isn't a court. There's no judgement to be made here, and we weren't asked for one. This thread was purely meant to inform us of what had already happened in private.

TotO is not under any current sanction. It's his own choice if he comes back here or not. And if he stays away out of spite, that's not the fault of anyone else here.

Can we lock this thread? It seems now to be a venue just for people to get inappropriately salty.

[Bryce]

I've also had enough of this by now. The simple fact is, whether it was handled correctly or not, the whole thing would never have happened if TotO had not decided to do such a backhanded, mean-spirited, devious action as he did. He made a choice when he sent those PMs. They were NOT a friendly chat and they were NOT informative. There was no discussion such as "do you think his device is too expensive?", "I wonder if this device would do the same thing". They were intentionally directed at users who had stated interest in buying my device and linked directly to a cheap Chinese knock-off with the suggestion that my device was nothing better than these. This is a direct attack to try and undermine my project and the ban was put in place to stop his actions as quickly as possible before he did even more damage. I was informed of his actions late at night and the first two reports were also the first two people who stated interest in my project. I had no idea whether he had or was in the process of sending further e-mails to others who had stated interest so something needed to be done quickly. Everyone can have their own opinion as to whether that was the right decision in hindsight, but at the time it seemed like the best course of action.
TotO has still not had the decency to either apologise or justify his actions to me either privately or publicly, which gives me the impression that he still thinks that his actions were ok.

Bryce.

[zhulien]

Well... if someone was selling game x and game x was crap and someone made their greatest effort to publicize that... they should have the right even if it was their own personal opinion not shared by others. I have no problem with toto or you brice. I don't really know either of you but to ban someone because such actions is just plain wrong... it actually makes me dislike this forum. Although I am not the most active participant I have been part of this community since the older version of this forum before it was migrated and never have I seen something so wrong in banning someone because of a squabble between members...

[Bryce]

Publicized comes from the word public, and of course he would have been fully entitled to call me out in the public thread to question the merits and cost of my device, but he didn't do that, he spread completely untrue information through private e-mails directed at a very specific group of people, in such a way that his claims couldn't be defended. The devious part of this is that I am pretty sure that he has enough electronics knowledge to know that what he said was completely untrue.
If he had really thought that his information was true, why wasn't he stating it in the thread which was there to discuss the project? Why did he not contact me and ask for technical details. He could have done this at any time and all would have seen it, but I also would have had the oportunity to explain why his information is not correct. He made two comments in the thread, neither of them questioning the device nor suggesting that a chinese device might be able to do the same thing and then suddenly starts sending these PMs out?

Bryce.

[Gryzor]

It must have been my imagination that it is hosting (or linking) to lots of game ROMs converted to GX4000 'without' promoting the fact that probably not every single one of them has permission from the copyright holders - or the fact that the moderators here don't ban someone from promoting CPC Games CDs full of um... pirated? games?  For the record, I don't care about piracy, new or old - I will do what doesn't get me in trouble with the law, it is not about any ethics for me and proudly to say it.  I collect games because I like the original physical thing, but I don't give a hoot who pirates - but the standard of banning someone because their actions are unliked by someone but then allowing others to do what is clearly illegal is not credible either.

Now sure why you'd ask if it was your imagination when I said it plain as the light of day.


It's about the law, not the ethics for you - there you have it, I care about ethics and that's the rub. Even if by some impossible stretch we equate the zero damage of pirating a 30 year old game to the very real damage done in this case, you're still comparing apples to oranges, since in this case here it's not about law, it's about ethics. Naturally.

[Gryzor]

That was handled pretty badly. I've done my time as admin on several forums over the years.

You don't ban someone, bring an issue to light to the rest of forum to make judgment, and then say "it's only temporary, he'll be back to explain his side when the band expires". That's actually the most ass-backwards way of going about it.

If it's going to be brought to public light, then everyone should have their side explained at the same time.
...
Admins police their forum, not the scene that it's involved with.

Absolutely not. I haven't seen a single forum where they have public judicial processes in effect. Admins and mods always take action single sided - and as a matter of fact this forum is the most lenient in this regards. THIS THREAD WAS NOT OPENED to "make judgment", it was an ANNOUNCEMENT, and I don't really know how many more times we have to say this. We only laid it out for the world NOT to justify the action but to inform other members. TotO was given the opportunity to explain, he did not, even the ban was lifter because some users asked for it, an yet we're still arguing about holding an open trial before taking disciplinary action against members? In what universe?


Your last sentence makes little sense, I'm afraid - who is policing what scene?

Well... if someone was selling game x and game x was crap and someone made their greatest effort to publicize that... they should have the right even if it was their own personal opinion not shared by others.

As Bryce said, you provide the exact reason for the banning in your own words. Had TotO done this in public and openly criticised Bryce or anyone else it'd be a completely different issue. I really don't understand what's so difficult to understand about this... Sending PRIVATE messages without letting someone reply is... how can I say this? The *opposite* of "publicize".

[zhulien]

OK Gryzor. You know my name. Please be sure that my software is not in the wiki or in the pirate cds being publicised in this forum. Thanks.

[Gryzor]

OK Gryzor. You know my name. Please be sure that my software is not in the wiki or in the pirate cds being publicised in this forum. Thanks.

Erm... even if this was not a childish response, no, I don't know your name and no, I couldn't check anything and everything, except for the direct contents of the server, so if there's an "illegal" copy of a game of yours here, please specify it.


PS feel free to open another thread to deal with totally off-topic issues. I will be removing posts from this thread from now on because we're veering too far off.

[SOS]

THIS THREAD WAS NOT OPENED to "make judgment", it was an ANNOUNCEMENT, and I don't really know how many more times we have to say this.

Yes, you have not insert a new category "Judgment Court" but IMHO the thread looks like it.
So, this is a reason why in german companies where not discussed such content open for the whole staff.
IMHO such open discussion can't be ended harmonic.

[zhulien]

I actually mistook this thread for bad moderator judgement... hense I didn't see apples and oranges. Gryzor I think you are a good moderator to date... but not this time.

[Carnivius]

Ok, after reading through some of this I've come to the understanding that Tot0 did a bad thing, possibly for good reasons, possibly not, but either way in a kind of ill-advised sneaky way which is against the general sense of community we have here.  He could have communicated with Bryce publicy and voiced his concerns, if genuine, about the product right there in the relevant topic but chose not to do it that way.  And for his actions he was suspended (that's what a temporary ban is, right?  Like when you do something pretty bad at school) which he could use the time to think about what he did and how it was possibly not the best way to approach it or that he could have got his facts right before even performing the actions which led to his suspension.  Instead he appears to have reacted by 'quitting' and backing away from the scene and the services he provided hopefully temporarily.  I've done the same thing before even without having been banned or suspended. Sometimes I just needed a time out and I would kind of force myself into retreat by overreacting in some way so I felt it was necessary to calm down before I did something really stupid.

Anyways hopefully when this has all blown over Tot0 will rethink it all, come back, be a big man and apologise and we can all just go back to where we were before this unpleasantness.  I wouldn't like the scene to lose him because he has proved to be a very valuable member of the CPC community and his creativity, software and hardware knowledge and skills are a great asset to us all.

That's the way I see it from reading all this stuff.  I like to think I'm being impartial and have no real feelings one way or the other except for wanting all this arguing to stop.  Come on, we CPC owners have been spoilt for choice recently with all the great stuff coming out for our beloved vintage hardware and looking ahead to even more awesomeness.  Let's not spoil that but having our lil community fall apart.

[MissionComplete]

The threads aren't what we want, but what they become, and this seems a dangerous snow ball of crap, so I think the best option is to close it as soon as possible, and even delete it... Just my opinion...

[Shaun M. Neary]

As Bryce said, you provide the exact reason for the banning in your own words. Had TotO done this in public and openly criticised Bryce or anyone else it'd be a completely different issue. I really don't understand what's so difficult to understand about this... Sending PRIVATE messages without letting someone reply is... how can I say this? The *opposite* of "publicize".

My apologies. I misunderstood.
He used the PM service within the forum. I don't know why I read it as email. Once again, I stand corrected.


I still think a ban was too much of a heavy handed approach. A warning via a PM and a chance to TotO to explain himself in this would have probably how I would have handled it. An instant ban would probably have pissed me off to the point that I'd reject the opportunity to come back and explain because it immediately comes off as single sided. Had it been suggested to explain before a ban (and then a ban if the result wasn't satisfactory), it would have been fairer. Because it stands, we're still only getting one side of a possible three sided story


1) Bryce's side
2) TotO's side
3) The actual truth!*


*I'm cynical by nature, and usually both sides have tendencies to leave out fact