Author Topic: Batman Forever  (Read 74134 times)

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Offline MacDeath

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #125 on: 10:11, 03 May 11 »
Textscrolls were good for Cracktro... yet for proper demo this simply can't be a main subject or an end in itself...



Offline McKlain

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #126 on: 10:20, 03 May 11 »
Agreed. And we are not in the 80's anymore.

Offline PhilZeVibe

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #127 on: 10:56, 03 May 11 »
Really boring discussion indeed, arguing about such an over-discussed subject that is the classical space (memory) vs time tradeoff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time_tradeoff

Yes, we can exchange execution time at the expense of memory and vice versa. Big news ::)

If you choose to go with full realtime calculations for everything, then your demo effects will be simplistic and thus fail to impress.
If you choose to go with full precalc datas, then you will have a 8MB filmmacher-like animation that will fail to impress anyone too.

So, like all tradeoffs, it's a matter of searching the sweet spot for your demo needs, finding the best bang for the buck.
And for what I see, Batman Forever was the best CPC demo ever at this. 600KB is really really small when you consider all the stuff  that is shown during the show.
I think that those qualifying these effects as (video-like) animations have lost their mind >:(
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Offline MaV

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #128 on: 11:21, 03 May 11 »
If it ANY demo has a pre-calculated SIN table for example, it must be shit. You're supposed to use the Z80 to calculate it using logarithms, which also can't be pre-calculated. If you use a PC to do any of the work then it's definitely no good, never mind coding on an emulator. Don't you know your supposed to type in the op-codes by hand on a real CPC 464 and only save the code to tape since even assemblers and disc drives are tools that make it too easy to write proper demos.

Well we had it tough. We used to have to get up at four o'clock in the morning to start the generator, two hours before going to sleep, and wire our own sin tables with our tongues. We had half a handful of op-codes, coded twenty-four hours a day for the demo, and when we finished it, we'd magnetise the bits directly onto tape using a handful of iron filings.

But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'. Nope, nope, ...

:D :D :D :D
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Offline Bryce

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #129 on: 11:34, 03 May 11 »
That's nothing! We had to push the electrons with tiny sticks while being beaten with old Commodore disk drives.....etc etc.... :)

Bryce.

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #130 on: 11:41, 03 May 11 »
@Mav, @Bryce: excellent.
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Offline fano

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #131 on: 11:44, 03 May 11 »
Perhaps nationnalistic concern occured.

Spain = games.
France = Demo.
Germany = hardware and OS...lol.

oops, now Spain = both games and demos.

Well, until the new R-type is released...(Spain tends to produce a lot of speccy ports theses days...)
This is not serious , CPC scene is small enough to speak about people themselves instead of nationality.About incoming R-Type, you are wrong, it IS a Speccy port  :laugh: (about speccy , if someone sells a cheap +3 with power supply , even without drive :P )
And i am waiting too theses incoming Spanish prods like Uwol or Bubble Bobble 4 ;D
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Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #132 on: 11:47, 03 May 11 »
The Coder Clash !
I knew the storm was coming ;)

Talking about code is ok, incorrect claims and arguments is not so fun.
look, in the end, some code, gfx and music produced a nice result that shocked many people.
So... when will the next great demo come?
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Offline fano

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #133 on: 12:05, 03 May 11 »
hehe we are now waiting a reply from Vanity as they said  ;)
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Offline redbox

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #134 on: 12:12, 03 May 11 »
To read the technical explanation of the demo techniques is of course very interesting, but it is a shame that it's descended into an argument...  ::)


For me, the truly great achievement of this demo is the 'feel' of it.  Everything is in perfect sync, the music, the trackloading, the visual effects.  It's the first true 16/32 bit type demo for the CPC, and that's amazing.


It is a great, great achievement and it was nice to see someone new come to the platform (and work with other coders) to make something which shows how the CPC can shine.  :)

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #135 on: 12:14, 03 May 11 »
Then the new person gets a bashing.. and they leave?  >:(
well this could be the outcome, but really we don't want this.

But I agree with you completely.
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Offline McKlain

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #136 on: 12:46, 03 May 11 »
When there are few people on the scene and they are also fighting each other... we have a problem.

Offline fano

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #137 on: 13:32, 03 May 11 »
I'd not see that as a fight , there are interesting posts on CPCrulez about technical aspect.I don't think Longshot wants to discredit this amazing demo but to speak about technical aspect (he found this demo great as he wrote in several posts).For sure , Rhino and Longshot do not share the same point so discution is hard.
Anyway that will not change my point on this demo that it is the best demo on CPC (despite the fact some technics had already be seen in older demos) and my good opinion about Longshot and Rhino.
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Offline AMSDOS

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #138 on: 14:20, 03 May 11 »
I've done precalculated and calculated routines myself and both have advantages and disadvantages, the big disadvantage obviously in precalculating everything is having the memory to put it in, pretty difficult if not impossible if your writing a demo with Overscan, Rasters, Scrolling, Sound - and want it all to work in 64k! Would probably get away doing that on 128k demo, though the whole thing seems a sheer waste!  ???  A good programmer would tap into the Z80 and have the proper calculations to produce a reasonible routine.
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Offline McKlain

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #139 on: 14:23, 03 May 11 »
I don't think that a bad programmer could achieve something like Batman Forever either  :laugh:

Offline spybro

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #140 on: 18:32, 03 May 11 »
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU CPC CODERS!!!!
usually in the demoscene when you want to beat someone
you create a fucking demo with technics better than the ones your opponent had delivered

Rhino has created a MASTERPIECE that dismantled not only the cpcscene but also the c64 scene.
He has put us back on the map!!!
It was his first ever demo on cpc for god's shake

YOU smartashes believe you are better???(that goes for the 5 cpcsceners-coders that are busting our balls in various forums attacking Rhino)
WE will judge that!!!

UNTILL any of you shows something better
Shut the fuck up and start coding

@Rhino
the cpcscene (-5 di..heads) are with you all the way
stop explaining to certain people how you created BF
its not like they are producing anything nor they learn
YOU cannot teach an old dog new tricks
Pouet score is 288 atm sit back and enjoy your triumph





@gryzor
σορρυ φιλε για την επιθετικη γλωσσα αλλα μου τα εχουν πρηξει
οι κατα τα αλλα δεινοσαυροι του scene με τις μαμακιες τους

Offline MaV

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #141 on: 19:04, 03 May 11 »
@gryzor
σορρυ φιλε για την επιθετικη γλωσσα αλλα μου τα εχουν πρηξει
οι κατα τα αλλα δεινοσαυροι του scene με τις μαμακιες τους

Don't plead to Gryzor for sympathy. What you've done is extremely rude. Most of us do not criticise the demo. We're discussing a few points of the demo, and some here do not share the same anxiousness for whatever reasons.


Quote
WE will judge that!!!

UNTILL any of you shows something better
Shut the fuck up and start coding

Yes, we do judge BF, and even those five "smart-ass" coders may judge it. And almost all of us think it's the best 8-bit demo. What's wrong with you?

You don't have to know how to build a table to judge the quality of the work done by a carpenter.
A lot of users here can't code in assembly, a lot do not have time to do demos. And we've got jobs, family and lives.

Hm, let me put it another way: why don't you start with yourself and do a better demo, then come back and insult us.

MaV
« Last Edit: 19:07, 03 May 11 by MaV »
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Offline spybro

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #142 on: 19:19, 03 May 11 »
@MaV
you have to see the movie Lost in Translation

As for everything else you wrote
no comment
I deeply respect your sayings or not
« Last Edit: 19:20, 03 May 11 by spybro »

Offline TFM

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #143 on: 19:24, 03 May 11 »
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU CPC CODERS!!!!
usually in the demoscene when you want to beat someone
you create a fucking demo with technics better than the ones your opponent had delivered

Rhino has created a MASTERPIECE that dismantled not only the cpcscene but also the c64 scene.
He has put us back on the map!!!
It was his first ever demo on cpc for god's shake

YOU smartashes believe you are better???(that goes for the 5 cpcsceners-coders that are busting our balls in various forums attacking Rhino)
WE will judge that!!!

UNTILL any of you shows something better
Shut the fuck up and start coding

@Rhino
the cpcscene (-5 di..heads) are with you all the way
stop explaining to certain people how you created BF
its not like they are producing anything nor they learn
YOU cannot teach an old dog new tricks
Pouet score is 288 atm sit back and enjoy your triumph





@gryzor
σορρυ φιλε για την επιθετικη γλωσσα αλλα μου τα εχουν πρηξει
οι κατα τα αλλα δεινοσαυροι του scene με τις μαμακιες τους

You talk pretty loud here, so where are your productions? Any links?
TFM of FutureSoft
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Offline spybro

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #144 on: 19:37, 03 May 11 »

You talk pretty loud here, so where are your productions? Any links?


I didnt attack Rhino's work
Others did
So the Real question is where are YOURS???


Offline MacDeath

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #145 on: 20:31, 03 May 11 »
The main problem is that a french speaking english like a spanish cow and a spanish speaking english like a french cow... how can they understand each other properly in English... ;D

Not Mother's tongue = some words may be interpreted with a different meaning as what you had in mind.

Also when you spent a lot of time and work on your production (Rhino) it is quite understandable that a few misunderstanding or even some construtive critisisms may hurt.


Also, Longshot is quite an historical figure/legend in CPC world. (sort of)
Yet he may have his own conception of Demo-coding that may not be fully followed by others.

"precalculated" Vs "Real Time"... older than dirt debate.

Yet still the one who start clashes.

Rhino wanted to do some demo fo the whole Demo scene to see what a CPC can do.
While the CPC demoscene is known for being quite a private family.

But thing are perhaps changing.

Now that east Europe know about this machine. ;)

Quote
I've done precalculated and calculated routines myself and both have   advantages and disadvantages, the big disadvantage obviously in   precalculating everything is having the memory to put it in, pretty   difficult if not impossible if your writing a demo with Overscan,   Rasters, Scrolling, Sound - and want it all to work in 64k! Would   probably get away doing that on 128k demo, though the whole thing seems a   sheer waste!  ???  A good programmer would tap into the Z80 and have the proper calculations to produce a reasonible routine.
CPC being heavy on video, to get something to rivalize with 16bit computers needs a 6128 specification IMO.

That's the only way to get your Z80 some room to breath and expend itself into Fullscreen, multiload and so on...
I mean... a fullscreen of uncompressed Graphics is 24K minimum...


Optimum CPC config would even be with 256K RAM as a standard feature (TO8 ?)

Quote
Quote from: spybro
please don't be so rude my friend...
« Last Edit: 20:42, 03 May 11 by MacDeath »

Offline TFM

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #146 on: 20:42, 03 May 11 »

I didnt attack Rhino's work
Others did
So the Real question is where are YOURS???

I didn't attack Rhinos work either. Now my work can be found here:
http://cpcwiki.eu/index.php/TFM
 
or just check out my actual project:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQfZsoN4wrU
 
 
But finally YOU did attack people here in common, so again, where is your work?
 
Nothing?
 
If you can't show something, I suggest to become a bit less offensive.
 
TFM of FutureSoft
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #147 on: 09:57, 04 May 11 »
So, we're having our *own* argument here? Unbelievable :D

@Spybro: I agree 100% with you, mate, but try to keep the tone down :)
@everyone else: why did you get offended by Spybro? I really don't understand.

Offline AMSDOS

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #148 on: 10:42, 04 May 11 »
I personally didn't see anything said against Batman Forever, though I can only presume someone must had said something which lead to the discussion of Precalculated & Calculated routines. I was only talking from my experience and yes I've done both, though all I can say is if Batman Forever is Calculating how the tricks are being performed, it's performing it very efficently. I simply feel it's nice piece of programming set out to done what they wanted done!  ;D  *Peace*
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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #149 on: 11:06, 04 May 11 »
@everyone else: why did you get offended by Spybro? I really don't understand.
Well, his post is very harsh with a very rude language. In my opinion it offends even the people who are not criticizing the demo and most (if not all) users of this forum didn't even criticize it.

@DemoStyle: I personally don't care about the technical details when I watch a demo. I want to be entertained and Batman Forever did that in a great way :-).
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