Author Topic: Batman Forever  (Read 74147 times)

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Offline Optimus

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #150 on: 15:23, 04 May 11 »
@Spybro: No need for aggresiveness here. Everyone is entitled to his opinion. I know some opinions are too weird when you have clearly witnessed a masterpiece and yet you hear people complaining about it. In many major smashing releases there are still few people complaining. You can't understand it at first, who would not like such a great demo. But you see it all the time, for example at Pouet for PC/C64/Amiga masterpieces with 200 thumbs up you find those 2-3 thumbs down and try to read the ridiculous comments ("Oh,. it   doesn't run on Linux, thumbs down!", "Oh,. the shadows are blue, so it must suck :P " sort of bullshit :PPP). It hapeness. I don't think it's done on purpose though. Someone might not like something for his own reasons you cannot understand. I respect he can have a different opinion and I find one negative opinion between 200 positive, "funny", interesting or different. Oh btw, TFM, can you explain me in detail what do you mean that CPC demos from 89-91 were better than BF? This puzzled me for weeks :)
 
As for the demo, everyone is arguing on the 3d animations. This was the less interesting part for me (It was still interesting was how the animation player works so fast, but that's it). Based on that argumentation they almost go to say that the demo is a bunch of animations. The bats on window animation (which combines the zoomer too, cool) and the cube at the end are just there to fill the narrative story at the beginning and the fast paced trackmo at   the end. The only animation parts left are the 3d city and the 3d bat. If you remove these parts there are still interesting effects, the zoomers, rotozoomer, twister and nobody talks about the dots which I love even if they are full software rendered. Why does anyone argue about animations   when there are so much to see? Regardless all that, there is so much to see from design, graphics, transitions, trackmo style, ideas, funny texts, it's overall a very entertaining demo yet people focus on whether something was precalculated or not? Does that alone make it a bad demo?
 
Something more that I fail to understand. Well, I don't know very much about the CRTC. Some people claimed that "it doesn't have as advanced CRTC techniques as other CPC demos". First of all, I fail to understand what an advanced CRTC technique is. I know that with the CRTC you can expand borders and have overscan which is all over the place in the demo. I know that you can make line split so that you select which videoram lines to display. This is the most standard thing I see in many CPC demos (and other 8bit demos). I don't know any other effect. Ok,. in BF many of the effects were just copying the first line of the videoram and then changed raster colours (like the zoomers). I think some effects also changed the videoram starting address per line and that was attributed as more advanced CRTC trick. Am I missing some CRTC effects that are more advanced? The BF demo does all the basic stuff and combines them with clever ideas to display something not seen before in such scale and speed on the CPC. I was thrilled to know that the zoomers were just copying first line (Reg9 I think with another Reg?) and then in a stable display just change colours per few lines, because I was initially thinking of a harder way (stretching every bitmap on X with software and selecting lines with CRTC hardware) which I never did because I was scared on the CRTC and timing with these software codes. But his way is much easier and clever with the symmetric 32 pixel bitmap. So, who cares if it's not as advanced when it's more impressive in result than all the classic hardware tricks that are supposed to be more advanced(?) (I am still expecting an answer to this, because I don't know the CRTC very well, and I am puzzled with what is supposed to be an advanced effect)
 
As for the fights, this is the scene I have known for years. For me, scene quarells is mostly a matter of getting a pack of popcorn and enjoying it because I can't take it seriously anymore. You know that when you meet these people at a demoparty they will be all peace and love.
 
« Last Edit: 15:35, 04 May 11 by Optimus »

Offline McKlain

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #151 on: 15:31, 04 May 11 »
@Spybro: No need for aggresiveness here. Everyone is entitled to his opinion. I know some opinions are too weird when you have clearly witnessed a masterpiece and yet you hear people complaining about it. In many major smashing releases there are still few people complaining. You can't understand it at first, who would not like such a great demo. But you see it all the time, for example at Pouet for PC/C64/Amiga masterpieces with 200 thumbs up you find those 2-3 thumbs down and try to read the ridiculous comments ("Oh,. it   doesn't run on Linux, thumbs down!", "Oh,. the shadows are blue, so it must suck :P " sort of bullshit :PPP). It hapeness. I don't think it's done on purpose though. Someone might not like something for his own reasons you cannot understand. I respect he can have a different opinion and I find one negative opinion between 200 positive, "funny", interesting or different. Oh btw, TFM, can you explain me in detail what do you mean that CPC demos from 89-91 were better than BF? This puzzled me for weeks :)
 
As for the demo, everyone is arguing on the 3d animations. This was the less interesting part for me (Interesting was how the animation player works so fast). Based on that argumentation they almost go to say that   the demo is a bunch of animations. The bats on window animation (which combines the zoomer too, cool) and the cube at the end are just there to fill the narrative story at the beginning and the fast paced trackmo at   the end. The only animation parts left are the 3d city and the 3d bat.   If you remove these parts there are still interesting calculated   effects, the zoomers, nobody talks about the dots which I love even if they are full software rendered. Why does anyone argue about animations   when there are so much to see? Regardless all that, there is so much to see from design, graphics, transitions, trackmo style, ideas, funny texts, it's overall a very entertaining demo yet people focus on whether something was precalculated or not? Does that alone make it a bad demo?
 
Something more that I fail to understand. Well, I don't know very much about the CRTC. Some people claimed that "it doesn't have as advanced CRTC techniques as other CPC demos". First of all, I fail to understand what an advanced CRTC technique is. I know that with the CRTC you can expand borders and have overscan which is all over the place in the demo. I know that you can make line split so that you select which videoram lines to display. This is the most standard thing I see in many CPC demos (and other 8bit demos). I don't know any other effect. Ok,. in BF many of the effects were just copying the first line of the videoram and then changed raster colours (like the zoomers). I think some effects also changed the videoram starting address per line and that was attributed as more advanced CRTC trick. Am I missing some CRTC effects that are more advanced? The BF demo does all the basic stuff and combines them with clever ideas to display something not seen before in such scale and speed on the CPC. I was thrilled to know that the zoomers were just copying first line (Reg9 I think with another Reg?) and then in a stable display just change colours per few lines, because I was initially thinking of a harder way (stretching every bitmap on X with software and selecting lines with CRTC hardware) which I never did because I was scared on the CRTC and timing with these software codes. But his way is much easier and clever with the symmetric 32 pixel bitmap. So, who cares if it's not as advanced when it's more impressive in result than all the classic hardware tricks that are supposed to be more advanced(?) (I am still expecting an answer to this, because I don't know the CRTC very well, and I am puzzled with what is supposed to be an advanced effect)
 
As for the fights, this is the scene I have known for years. For me, scene quarells is mostly a matter of getting a pack of popcorn and enjoying it because I can't take it seriously anymore. You know that when you meet these people at a demoparty they will be all peace and love.
 

Where's the "Like" button?  :laugh:

Offline MacDeath

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #152 on: 15:40, 04 May 11 »
I wasn't offended but such a strong language doesn't help to get into a peacefull CPC-scene... :laugh:

You can put as any fucks you want in a demo... but not in forums I guess... ;)

Offline TFM

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #153 on: 20:09, 04 May 11 »
@everyone else: why did you get offended by Spybro? I really don't understand.

Well, maybe because he uses a bit toooo strong words... He may be right from his POV (I also agree in some way...), but that's not a reason to insult the community. Well, think about other posts, you Gryzor kicked peoples butt for far less. You should - as moderator - keep equal level for all people here. No offense, but since you did ask... Now let's get this discussion back on facts and good understanding.
 
Oh btw, TFM, can you explain me in detail what do you mean that CPC demos from 89-91 were better than BF? This puzzled me for weeks :)

I don't like to answer, because I'm afraid to start a new war here. So I try to be diplomatic. If you like or dislike a demo more or less depends only on your personal taste. But I just want to remember some Demos (an please don't bother me by fixing me on particular years of release, ok?). So I do remember as all time great demos: Aliens demos, Face Huggers Megademo, Digital Orgasm from Prodatron, The demo, Divine, Heavy Metal, Ecole buissionaire, Optimus demo with that flames (forgot the name), a bunch of Odiesofts demos which have been always a revolution and now especailly From Scratch from Vanity. (And I forgot now 100 others...). While from Scratch really shows now effect, the effects shown in BF are not new - but look amazing. Again, this is just POV.
 
You can put as any fucks you want in a demo... but not in forums I guess... ;)
Well, as we have seen, some can, some not ;)  But I don't want to read it in a demo either :)
« Last Edit: 20:21, 04 May 11 by TFM/FS »
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Offline spybro

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #154 on: 20:41, 04 May 11 »

 Digital Orgasm from Prodatron




Prodatron....the creator of the most complex complete awesome piece of software on cpc!!!
SymbOs rulezzzz  ;)


Offline TFM

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #155 on: 21:45, 04 May 11 »



Prodatron....the creator of the most complex complete awesome piece of software on cpc!!!
SymbOs rulezzzz  ;)

Actually Prodis Digital Orgasm is still my favorite demo, together with From Scratch, Ecole Buissionaire and maybe soon (I always need some time for this...) with BF together.
But the CPC is very rich of wonderful demos. Maybe there are even more demos than games. We would need a CPC Demos CD  ;)
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Offline redbox

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #156 on: 22:34, 04 May 11 »
I don't like to answer, because I'm afraid to start a new war here.

Aliens demos, Face Huggers Megademo, Digital Orgasm from Prodatron, The demo, Divine, Heavy Metal, Ecole buissionaire, Optimus demo with that flames (forgot the name), a bunch of Odiesofts demos which have been always a revolution and now especailly From Scratch from Vanity.

Classic stuff.  8)

Offline fano

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #157 on: 23:05, 04 May 11 »
Don't forget some other like DTC , Demo is Art , Tire Au Flanc , Backtro or S&Koh (despite the fact it is mainly scrollers)
"NOP" is the perfect program : short , fast and (known) bug free

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Offline TFM

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #158 on: 23:43, 04 May 11 »
Very true! There are so much wonderful demos! :)
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Offline cpc4eva

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #159 on: 03:41, 05 May 11 »
Holy crap - I go away from cpcwiki forums for a week or so and its like they killed bin laden and had a royal wedding and nuked hiroshima and started world war 3 and I didnt even know....


note to self dont leave the cpcwiki for that long next time  :)






Offline Bryce

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #160 on: 10:13, 05 May 11 »
The CPCWiki is your main (only) source of news?? You need to diversify! :D

Bryce.

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #161 on: 11:43, 05 May 11 »
@Octo: I don't think Spybro intended to insult anyone here, he was referring to those who initiated the vs mode.
@Optimus: Couldn't agree more
@mcklain: I thought about adding a reputation system but I didn't see much use for it...
@TFM: actually, only a couple of persons have been banned for reasons very well known, that went far beyond a rude and angry post. Get your facts together.

But, I agree and can't really sympathise with such strong wording - if nothing else, it fuels the rivalry... Sorry, Spybro, but as I said, though I agree, the same stuff could be said with more calmness...

Offline arnoldemu

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #162 on: 11:48, 05 May 11 »
The CPCWiki is your main (only) source of news?? You need to diversify! :D

Bryce.
What other news do we need?
I find cpcwiki news is more fulfilling than listenting/watching news on television, radio or online.
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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #163 on: 20:22, 05 May 11 »
Seriously, man? Seriously? Will you EVER learn how to behave?

Tsk... what an arse...

Offline EgoTrip

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #164 on: 20:32, 05 May 11 »
Cant you see how damaging this thread is?


Look at it this way. Batman Forever is a remarkable demo, and when searching for it people may come across this thread. They will see the totally pointless arguing, and could be put off by it. This thread is the worst possible place for this type of behaviour, which makes me wonder if its intentional or not.


Also, correct me if i'm wrong, but arent most people here in their late 20's at the youngest? This makes it even more tragic.
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Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #165 on: 20:41, 05 May 11 »
Spybro can talk Greek here, but I'm not allowed to talk in German. I can only wonder about the moderation.

Well, it's not because the Language you used, but the content.
(Which was not too offensive IMO)
BTW.: I gave it up to wonder...
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Offline TFM

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #166 on: 20:42, 05 May 11 »
Cant you see how damaging this thread is?


Look at it this way. Batman Forever is a remarkable demo, and when searching for it people may come across this thread. They will see the totally pointless arguing, and could be put off by it. This thread is the worst possible place for this type of behaviour, which makes me wonder if its intentional or not.


Also, correct me if i'm wrong, but arent most people here in their late 20's at the youngest? This makes it even more tragic.

I agree totally!!!
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Offline McKlain

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #167 on: 20:43, 05 May 11 »
Pure CPC Scene, fights and drama.

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #168 on: 20:46, 05 May 11 »
Any further in-fighting will be deleted. Don't say there wasn't a warning.

Btw, it would be interesting to see th average age of the CPC user... I'd say early to mid thirties, but I might be wrong. /OT
« Last Edit: 20:49, 05 May 11 by Gryzor »

Offline cpc4eva

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #169 on: 21:10, 05 May 11 »
I was thinking along the lines of WORLD WAR 3 had started here in this thread........ and i only was gone for such a short time -


can we stop it please :) its ruining a great forum and maybe stopping new members from joining...


BATMAN forever is an amazing CPC demo and just like other CPC demo's they make our machine the legendary 8bit piece of machinery that it is - tongue in cheek  :-*


if people want to goto war with each other then swap each other's MSN or FACEBOOK or whatever and have your war in those private chat windows....


and if anyone is going to use weapons of mass destruction can they blow up old trafford, sir alex ferguson, the whole man united 1st team, reserve team, u18team and about 80,000 of their fans at the next home game.....

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #170 on: 21:12, 05 May 11 »
Somebody doesn't like a certain team I suspect... FLAME WAR! :D

Offline redbox

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #171 on: 21:29, 05 May 11 »
I think that the CPC is relatively a small scene compared to the C64 or Speccy, so unfourtunately the tw*ts stand out a little bit more.  :(

Offline steve

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #172 on: 21:54, 05 May 11 »
can we stop it please :) its ruining a great forum and maybe stopping new members from joining...


Now we have all read the offending posts, they should be deleted as they are not relevant to why we are here.

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #173 on: 23:11, 05 May 11 »
People usually think of two distinct questions when watching an effect in a demo:

1) How is that possible?
2) Can a game use it?

and enter the debate "realtime vs precalc" there. Realtimers say "that effect is only for show", while precalc'ers say "that's exactly true".

The reason this debate never ends is that realtimers are in a logical fallacy that a realtime effect makes more sense because it can be applied to a game. However they omit the fact that there is a lot to more to a game than the effect itself, such as ai, sound effects, input, dashboard etc.

If everyone agrees that the level of applicability of an effect to a game is not relevant to how it's created, we can all go ahead and enjoy the raw competition.

Offline TFM

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Re: Batman Forever
« Reply #174 on: 00:55, 06 May 11 »
That'a a very good point and explains the difference between games and demos in addition.
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