Yesterday at Revision, our new demo "Breaking Baud" was presented, featuring my tape turbo loader for the CPC and more importantly wonderful graphics from JulijanaM and our very own rexbeng, and a sonic smorgasbord from McKlain. The pouët page for the demo is https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62934 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62934) and there's a CDT file in the link there if you want to try it out yourself! :)
I've still not prepared a youtube version for this, I'll do this in the next couple of days and tidy up the source a bit for release, along with a post-party version with a couple of things that were planned but didn't quite make it in for the competition deadline.
This project has been a great collaborative effort. Just 5 weeks ago, I had some loading tech but no real demo and after my post here, I soon had several people working with me so it was a definite collaborative effort.
Many thanks to MaV for being the interaction point, translator, and coordinator for the "Lightkeeper" and "Rose" sequences. With his help, a really talented artist created her first "old computer" art based on an image she'd previously created at high res with many colours. It was an amazing foray into the CPC scene for her and the results certainly don't look like her first work in the medium and it's great to see how much of the feeling in her original work comes through into 4 colours and low-res!
Rexbeng's sequence "Bin Renderin" was a real joy to be a part of too. It was amazing to see the kind of colours you can get out of mode 0 when they're put in the hands of a talented graphics artist - it's a really super piece of art that uses colours the C64 can only dream of!
The music too was great! I've listened to McKlain's work many times in the past and when he offered to make some music, I felt truly honoured to have him on board. It was really great that he was watching the demo throughout the process - seeing it take shape and making music that fit the mood so well. Even more amazing that he provided so many different bits of music for each sequence when I was expecting only one tune for the entire demo!
So, thanks to everybody involved for making this the demo it was! It was great to have such a collaborative process! Now I need to catch up on some sleep... :)
I can't click the Like button enough for this one...!
Congratulations on a great production :)
A great little concept demo. Really fast loading and amazing graphics and sound.
Major congratulations to all concerned. Let's hope this starts a trend for |TAPE demos on CPC!
Well, it was quite funny how the 'Bin Renderin' developed from a simplistic mode1 image (simplistic because there was the time the loader needed to display graphics to be taken into acount) to a quite complicated and very colorful mode0 image! A nice excercise for future projects I think, though I need to point out that pixeling this was really challenging for my eyes and the fact that I had to partialy work on a shity laptop monitor instead of my wonderful IPS desktop monitor didn't help at all!
As 'Bin Renderin' was coming close to completion I thought of making one more image for Breaking Baud and infact asked Doz to wait until the very last moment, but in the meantime I had to do some fast work for another CPC project and in the end it felt as if I'd go blind (ok, I exaggerate). So I decided to let my eyes rest. I cannot dare to imagine what the concequenses would be had I been working images like this one on a CTM monitor. :P
Oh, the dangers of oldschool demomaking I suppose. ;D
About the demo, I find kind of cute how the curly and calm shapes in the girly-ish image are in the exact opposite direction to the rough and tense shapes in the boy-ish image. The changes between the styles and the fitting musics make it interesting for the eye and ear. It could go for another 10 images this way! :D
rb
Just watched the Video, what a fantastic demo! How many backups of the Tape did you guys have, just in case one didn't work??
Bryce.
Thanks also for the mention at the end :)
Something new on oldschool!? the original idea alone deserves a thumb up.
Then? well, this is Art (Lightkeeper + sound = wow!), thank you for the show.
(And personal thanks for the lesson, teaching to me again that technically impressive is not the only way.)
doesn't work on 6128PLUS and missing something on 464PLUS... dammit. :laugh:
otherwise nice graphics and sounds... well done, commentaries were great during the streaming.
hope you'll get some price. when can we get the results ?
testd it with Winape, works well but I may not be updates, a few glitches during display of new lines/stuff.
What is a "6128PLUS"? :P
Whoa, the most original thing I've seen in a long while! Kudos guys, that's really great! I watched it twice in a row, and after posting this I'm going to play it again on my TV.
Great stuff guys, it made me wake up somewhat after the Easter feast! :D
The "live" video is pretty cool too ;D
Breaking Baud by doz/crtc/3ln for Amstrad CPC- Revision 2014 - Oldskool (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D62jpqZ6TG4)
Quote from: MacDeath on 16:44, 20 April 14
testd it with Winape, works well but I may not be updates, a few glitches during display of new lines/stuff.
I think you'll find that that's the real-time decompression direct to screen-memory.
EDIT:
And what the feck has happened to my signature? Ok, my profile settings changed from last night... for some reason the "DO NOT show user's signatures" was ticked! *confused*
Oh, thanks for the video, a chance to watch it *yet* again! ...and also see my name in there, so thanks for the mention too!
Also: wow, data block record, forget about blobs and dots and whatnot!
@tastefulmrship : your sig is right there :D
QuoteWhat is a "6128PLUS"?
Rex, my old friend, I think you will have to learn what a 6128plus IS soon.. (said May?) ;D
Very good :)
And the loading is like a fourth AY channel ;)
Quote from: Token on 18:22, 20 April 14
And the loading is like a fourth AY channel ;)
Yeah, noticed that too, it really adds to the whole thing!
Quote from: fgbrain on 18:13, 20 April 14
Rex, my old friend, I think you will have to learn what a 6128plus IS soon.. (said May?) ;D
Can we at least paint it black? :P
QuoteWhat is a "6128PLUS"?
:o :( >:(
what an outrage... don't you ever read the Wiki or my numerous posts ?
Anyway yeah, they may somewhat exist in black, but then you may have to re-brand them as Sinclair, which would be a big shame on you...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Sinclair_PC_200_Reconstructed_White_BG.jpg)
:D
yeah, poor palette (16 colours palette), attribute text mode, only a buzzer for sounds... it is clealy a Sinclair.
:laugh:
6128PLUS doesn't have the components for tape, but they may be added I guess... are they still findable ?
and 464PLUS doesn't play sounds from the tape as previous CPC did... can it be fixed somewhat ?
So nice way to troll us PLUSers... ;)
nice demo anyway, a kool way to feast for the CPC464 anniversary.
Quote from: Jonah (Tasteful Mr) Ship on 18:02, 20 April 14
I think you'll find that that's the real-time decompression direct to screen-memory.
Yes, I'll post a proper technical explanation of what's actually happening along with the source, but briefly the loader is essentially doing LZ77 compression in addition to having a high base bitrate. In this, any places where 3-255 bytes of data can be copied from somewhere where they've already been loaded, I temporarily store the length and data offset into the first 3 bytes of that buffer and then store a pointer to that buffer in a list and the actually decompression happens as a background task separated from the actual data loading. Unfortunately, the offset is usually a small distance away, so there's usually an FF byte written to RAM at that point. That there are only a few glitches shows how quickly the background task can do the decompression and replace these FF bytes (and there are usually a lot) before the raster gets to that bit of memory! 8)
The compression seems to work very well in practice - for example in rexbeng's section, every section is between 1KB and 1.5KB compressed, even though the input to the compressor is 24KB each time. Because each stage can build on the data that's already been sent previously, most of the data that's already on the screen compresses down to almost nothing... :)
The system was designed so that I could use the spare idle time (yes, there is still plenty of idle time!) to do other demo effects whilst loading, and decompression was just a low-priority background task. Unfortunately, the other code-heavy demoish parts never gone done before the demo was finished, in part because we were already getting close to the maximum running time allowed for the demo, but mostly because I ran out of time as I spent about a week longer on the music playback code than I expected! :o
Watching the demo video I realized that you can't fade out hard instruments, so at the end of 'Bin Renderin' you hear two noises from the bassdrum+hard bass instrument.
Quote from: ralferoo on 20:01, 20 April 14
Yes, I'll post a proper technical explanation of what's actually happening along with the source, but briefly the loader is essentially doing LZ77 compression in addition to having a high base bitrate. In this, any places where 3-255 bytes of data can be copied from somewhere where they've already been loaded, I temporarily store the length and data offset into the first 3 bytes of that buffer and then store a pointer to that buffer in a list and the actually decompression happens as a background task separated from the actual data loading. Unfortunately, the offset is usually a small distance away, so there's usually an FF byte written to RAM at that point. That there are only a few glitches shows how quickly the background task
Background task while loading from tape?! Holy Jack the Nipper! I can't wait to see the source code..
Congratulations on this very special piece of demo art :) You guys rock!
were there previous examples of such Tape loading effects on CPC ?
I mean, beside Deflektor ?
Does it need a very clean signal (CD or MP3) or would work on any almost old tapes ?
Quote from: MacDeath on 21:51, 20 April 14
were there previous examples of such Tape loading effects on CPC ?
Harvey Headhanger had music and I remember owning another Firebird game with loading music, but I can't think what it was now...
Quote
Does it need a very clean signal (CD or MP3) or would work on any almost old tapes ?
In theory, it should be very tolerant of stretched tapes and worn out motors, as the different between a short pulse and a long pulse is 3x rather than 2x. In practice, it seems quite sensitive to volume level, more than I'd have expected, so it seems to require a bit of trial and error but once it's recorded at the right volume it's very reliable. The volume being too loud or quiet lengthens either the high or low portions of the pulse so it might cause me to incorrectly detect the end of the pilot tone...
In terms of tapes, the first I tried, a TDK CD'ing 90 seemed to work great. Others I've tried haven't worked as well, and some nice brand new tapes I purchased for bringing to the party and making available were totally awful - so bad they couldn't even load the AMSDOS portion no matter what I did to the volume levels! It does seem on the tapes that haven't worked, it often fails in the same place each time, so I suspect it might be the tapes that are just too old - they were last used 20 years ago and had at least one music album on them before...
It'd probably be more reliable to write the data direct from the 464, but the data is too big to fit into memory, so I'd have stream it e.g. via a serial expansion port to do that... But certainly with my home PC at a certain volume level, I can reliably record it on this TDK tapes and load it 100%.
That's what I call impressive!
I really love how the images form while loading, the music, and the technical challenge.
Great work guys! 8)
Quote from: ralferoo on 00:43, 21 April 14
Harvey Headhanger had music and I remember owning another Firebird game with loading music, but I can't think what it was now...
SPIKY HAROLD (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=2028) and THRUST (http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=2221) both had Melvyn Wright music-rolls playing while loading.
His websites - Welcome to Melvyn Wright's Web Sites (http://www.melright.com/)
Nice demo!
And thanks for the greetings! :)
Well deserved second place! o/
rb
Oh yeah ;D
Where are the compo results?
The results are being posted on pouet as we speak. http://www.pouet.net/party.php?which=1550&when=2014 (http://www.pouet.net/party.php?which=1550&when=2014)
rb
.
I'm happy of having worked with such a talented bunch of people. ;D
Quote from: phi2x on 11:23, 21 April 14
Breaking Baud is a great homage to the CPC 464 for its 30 years anniversary.
This. This should be plastered all over the CPCWiki website & forum! As well as all other CPC-related websites!
Happy Birthday CPC-464; here's your cake and you can jolly well eat it too! Major congrats on a worthy 2nd place in the Oldskool Demo Compo (
sorry, but BANG! was always going to win, despite it's over-use of the 32K extra RAM... but... of course... it wouldn't be Revision without a little bit of controversy!)
EDIT: And I realise this doesn't belong here, but the return of TBL to the Amiga scene was astonishing! Assembly 2006 all over again! WOW!
EDIT: Finally, for me, if anyone's going to SUNDOWN this year... the beer's are on me! ^_^
(
subject to 1 beer per person)
very cool demo something very different a tape demo nice job indeed.
how awesome does a cpc look on a big screen ;D
Hmm, and when did the 32K Atari 2600 mod appear first? :p
Yeah, a worthy 2nd place, and indeed technically and graphically very ace too. And works on 1984 hardware.
Personally, I think the 2600 demo was awesome - I know I voted it full marks, and was expecting it to win as soon as I saw it. Svolli (the author of that demo) also ran some seminars and practical sessions on 2600 programming on the Friday wish I'd really have loved to go to, but sadly I was too busy fixing things in my demo to be able to attend... :(
FWIW, I think the 8KB expansion cartridge is totally in the rules as the cartridge is just "media" - the demo was running on a real 2600 and that's what counts IMHO. The original cartridge was only 2KB, so are "4KB cartridges" cheating, or are they normal because they were also common on retail games? There was even a retail game with a 32KB ROM, so that could be considered "standard" too... Another example - what about Starfox for the N64? That contained a whole video chip on the cartridge, but people didn't complain about that, instead they just said "WOW - THIS IS AWESOME!"... ;)
A great and original demo! And our CPC finally has a tape demo as well. :)
I really liked how McKlain's music fit the pictures' mood. 8)
Just saw the video on Octoate.de. Well, say what you want, that's really pretty cool!!! :P
EDIT: But why does it say "Podatron" instead of "Prodatron"? Is that an insult or a typo? Well, the German word "Po" means "buttocks". I really hope it's a typo only.
Quote from: MaV on 22:06, 21 April 14
A great and original demo! And our CPC finally has a tape demo as well. :)
Yes, with Relentless, the 464 users can now show it to remember why it was so cool to load programs on Tape...
... Without turning off the computer before playing to the game itself. ;D
Quote from: TFM on 02:39, 22 April 14EDIT: But why does it say "Podatron" instead of "Prodatron"? Is that an insult or a typo? Well, the German word "Po" means "buttocks". I really hope it's a typo only.
::) That's a typo. Name one single reason why I should insult someone, and for that matter Prodatron in particular?
We were tired as hell, and although we checked, our bleary eyes couldn't find this one. ralferoo probably doesn't know what "Po" means in German.
You might have noticed that we mentioned your game as well, although we wrongly called them "Space Chicken" for the same reasons.
Quote from: TFM on 02:39, 22 April 14
EDIT: But why does it say "Podatron" instead of "Prodatron"? Is that an insult or a typo? Well, the German word "Po" means "buttocks". I really hope it's a typo only.
No, it wasn't an insult. After spending all day Saturday trying to get the demo finished, and after 3.5 hours sleep that night, the credits were written on the morning of submission and the greetings in the last hour. It was a massive rush at the end, and I even forgot people I should have included like people in our demo group who couldn't make the party. I did a final speed run of the credits at 4x speed in an emulator to make sure it didn't crash, I didn't actually even read the text I'd typed in!
I'll correct it for the "final" version along with a couple of things that just didn't get finished in time.
Quote from: ralferoo on 19:34, 22 April 14
I'll correct it for the "final" version along with a couple of things that just didn't get finished in time.
I just watched this demo again and felt I had to say one more time a huge well done to everyone involved in it.
It's an epic demo and definitely rates amongst the greatest ever. I can't believe that you did a tape demo and executed it so perfectly.
It should have just won the best demo regardless of category IMHO :)
This is excellent stuff! Well done! The graphics are excellent, so is the music (and it's hard to satisfy my tastes :) ). The demo looks well polished and it's very very original. Congrats !
Trg.Aks
Quote from: MaV on 19:13, 22 April 14
::) That's a typo. Name one single reason why I should insult someone, and for that matter Prodatron in particular?
We were tired as hell, and although we checked, our bleary eyes couldn't find this one. ralferoo probably doesn't know what "Po" means in German.
You might have noticed that we mentioned your game as well, although we wrongly called them "Space Chicken" for the same reasons.
Relax, you can update the demo right?
Quote from: Targhan on 20:49, 22 April 14
This is excellent stuff! Well done! The graphics are excellent, so is the music (and it's hard to satisfy my tastes :) ). The demo looks well polished and it's very very original. Congrats !
Trg.Aks
You were another person I forgot to put in the greetings... I spent the last two weeks converting your Arkos Tracker player source into something that'd coexist with my tape loading code (it now only uses A,BC,DE,HL because all the others are needed by the tape code), and I learned so much about how trackers work in general it was a great time (despite it taking much longer than I planned!)... :)
Glad to know my work was useful :). Wouldn't it be possible to stream the music in the tape data instead of managing a real player ?
Quotewhy it was so cool to load programs on Tape...
it was never cool... ;D
anyway, congrats for 2nd place... damn atari2600... :laugh:
Still all C64 are defeated by the mighty CPC464.
I add my thumb up, it was very nice to see this prod live. I have not had the possibility to congratulate Doz in real so I do it here!
McKlain and Rex are probably two of my favorites artists of the moment on CPC.
Great Stuff Guys Well Done 8)
good point is that since a few years, most major demo parties has a CPC prod released... and it often reach to honorable places.
What a great surprise to see another CPC demo at the party. I love the idea, the title and the graphics and how well the music fit with tape loading. Kinda disappointed to not see some effects included, but I know they were planned and there was just not enough time.
And I think the 2nd place is also a great achievement. It entertains me how some people sometimes argue when a CPC demo doesn't come 1st place, and they argue how the other platform had precalced effects or used more memory or whatever. But be honest, a lot of the entries in the compo were quite good, it was a fresh oldschool compo, not only one but two atari vcs with many effects, one C64 demo with some effects (even though less stuff than usually expected from Fairlight/Offence and reuse of old stuff). But you have the big names and more popular machines with effects and stuff, and yet the CPC gets 2nd place over C64/Fairlight which was surprising. I mean, yes I am happy the CPC is represented, but I respect some of the other really good works too, it was a tough compo, the CPC demo could have easily taken 3rd or 4th place and I still wouldn't complain. Which should makes us happy it got so high, maybe people liked the original idea over the same old effects in other platforms, maybe they start liking CPC more :)
can't argue the fact the Atari2600 managed a huge thing despite its hardware... still a bit curious... what physical support did they use...
Weren't cartridges greatly limited on those ?
Sadly Breaking Baud is nice but clearly not a Batman killer...
Will the planed collective 30 years Megademo from pushNpop be released at some huge party ?
Would be great to have something reaching 1st place again against all those speccies and C64s and Amiga and STies...
We can't deny that Batman made a huge impact on the scene and gave CPC a great visibility with it, it gained at last its rightfull place as a great Demo machine... and as the CPCscene managed to constantly deliver nice things since...
perhaps scenedudes are bored of speccy 1bpp attributes tricks or overused washed grey/brown C64 palette or ear-bleeding Sid...
CPC cubic 3"3"3 palette and overscan and powerfull video modes are somewhat refreshing...
Well, Atari 8 bit computers may be nice as well...
but it looks too much like a "Mode3" (4 coloured mode0) plsu a few colour patches from sprites...
Graphically, the CPC can easily do as well in simple mode0 lol... and PLUS can often do exactly the same in Mode1...
The feeling i often got when i watched Arsantica.
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62953 (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62953)
Many screens could be done in pure Mode1 on a PLUS.
perhaps even in "mode5" on CPC old...
Just we have less greys... :'(
Quote from: MacDeath on 23:10, 25 April 14
Sadly Breaking Baud is nice but clearly not a Batman killer...
Sorry, I must have missed that part... where does it say that BREAKING BAUD was ever
meant as a BATMAN killer?
On that note, though, I think I've watached BREAKING BAUD more times than BATMAN FOREVER; so in terms of pesonal watched-times, I guess it's beaten it.
Quote from: Jonah (Tasteful Mr) Ship on 05:54, 26 April 14I think I've watached BREAKING BAUD more times than BATMAN FOREVER; so in terms of pesonal watched-times, I guess it's beaten it.
Sure, with a 464... ;D
Quote from: MacDeath on 23:10, 25 April 14
Sadly Breaking Baud is nice but clearly not a Batman killer...
Why does everything have to be compared to Batman Forever? For starters, even if a more technically accomplished demo is released, nothing can ever really "kill" it. It will always be the demo that made people on other platforms recognise the potential of the CPC.
Sure, I
could have spent 3 years working in secret on an epic demo, and some people do and fair play to them. But I know that personally, I'd get bored of that and probably move on to something else before it was finished. For me, releasing more frequent smaller demos is much more satisfying.
In any case, with the 8 minute time limit at Revision, the demo was already very close to the maximum length, so it couldn't have been much longer even if I'd wanted it to be...
I just watched the live video. (4 pages of CPCwiki forum discussion behind I see... I need to turn down the real-life stuff and visit here more often).
I'm very impressed! Absolutely awesome! Very impressive demo and simply brilliant music! McKlain you rule! I want the music from that demo! Gimme!
Or better yet: Make a music-disk soon. :)
Everytime I've listened to one of your CPC tunes, I've always felt you've created somewhat of a new sound for the CPC, and it's just awesome.
Awesome pictures in the demo too. I especially liked the rose where water drops appeared. Art when it's the awesomenest. :)
Really great work Doz!!!
(How about changing your nick in here to Doz, since that is the nick you're using?)
EDIT: Oh, and thanks for the greeting! :)
(http://blog.lefigaro.fr/hightech/kill-the-batman.jpg)
:D
Both demos (Br Ba and Batman) are on opposite spectrum of the CPC range...
one rely heavily on the Disk + 128K RAM, the other on Tape + 64K...
I know we can't kill the batman and don't need to... this goddamn batman had so much preptime he's now beyound god-tier level.
Also know Br-Ba wasn't supposed to be that sort of demo...
Also I wasn't implying anything with this remark so no need to focus on it, lol...
Quote from: MacDeath on 23:10, 25 April 14
can't argue the fact the Atari2600 managed a huge thing despite its hardware... still a bit curious... what physical support did they use...
Weren't cartridges greatly limited on those ?
Not really, the only thing that stopped people going mental was cost - Atari's own commercial cartridge at the start of the 2600's life were 2K or 4K but it didn't take long for the bank switching schemes to start appearing.
Quote from: ralferoo on 13:54, 26 April 14Why does everything have to be compared to Batman Forever? For starters, even if a more technically accomplished demo is released, nothing can ever really "kill" it. It will always be the demo that made people on other platforms recognise the potential of the CPC.
Batman Forever has become a benchmark so even if it wasn't your intention to take it on there will always be people who hold new releases up against it for comparison now, both inside and outside the CPC community. And ultimately the CPC demo scene
really wants something to come along and take that crown because it means someone else has thrown a metric bucketload of work into going toe to toe with the current monarch. But in the meantime there's loads of room for smaller, more "quirky" (for want of a better word) releases and that should be embraced and encouraged too, stuff like
Breaking Baud or
Safe VSP (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXcA4OWx0vo) on the C64 that prod around an interesting feature to see what can be done with it.
TL;DR version: people will always compare so don't worry, have fun making it and then release and be damned. =-)
Quote from: TMR on 22:29, 26 April 14
TL;DR version: people will always compare so don't worry, have fun making it and then release and be damned. =-)
Amen to that.
Jesus, people! Comparing every little demo to Batman Forever is turning out to be equal to the second coming of Christ. ::)
Right now, Vanity and Rhino are competing for the best (full) demo only.
I don't think anybody besides them is even willing to be compared to Batman Forever. Also, Overlander and ralferoo have voiced their preference for smaller demos, and the rest of our community is probably also too occupied with real life to consider a multiple years project.
@TMR (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=320): Has there ever been a similar situation in the C64 community?
Quote from: MaV on 18:59, 27 April 14
Right now, Vanity and Rhino are competing for the best (full) demo only.
I think you forgot BSCDEMO4! How come peoples always seem to misconstrue it's monumentality? :o
On a more serious side note: I think that "KKB First" was one of the most impressive and ground breaking demos of its time (IIRC it was done in 1989) and was unreasonably neglected in the media coverage of things CPC.
Quote from: MaVRight now, Vanity and Rhino are competing for the best (full) demo only.
I don't think anybody besides them is even willing to be compared to Batman Forever. Also, Overlander and ralferoo have voiced their preference for smaller démos (...)
You meant Overflow and not Overlander? :P
It would be so nice if you had got some secret news about a possible Overlander comeback, Madram working (with Shap) in his cave to release a massive demo.I also miss some simple but cute demos for Christmas. But I should not:
do what you want (and not what people expect you to do), feel free (to release or not), don't mind (negative comments).
Oops! sorry to write down my opinion. :-[
Quote from: BSCOn a more serious side note: I think that "KKB First" was one of the most impressive and ground breaking demos of its time (IIRC it was done in 1989) and was unreasonably neglected in the media coverage of things CPC.
[Off topic] I agree.
Quote from: Overflow on 21:20, 27 April 14
You meant Overflow and not Overlander? :P
It would be so nice if you had got some secret news about a possible Overlander comeback, Madram working (with Shap) in his cave to release a massive demo.
Sorry! Overflow, of course! :-[
No, I have no news about that. I guess it was also wishful thinking that made me write the wrong name. Sorry again for that.
:)
Quote from: Overflow on 21:20, 27 April 14
You meant Overflow and not Overlander? :P
It would be so nice if you had got some secret news about a possible Overlander comeback, Madram working (with Shap) in his cave to release a massive demo.
Overlanders (especially Madram) currently work on a new assembler for CPC (Orgams) which is very promising. Another little production is planed (maybe with Shap), but it does not seems to be a demo. But no informations about a massive demo. Madram seems to be the last active member of the group and seems to be much more interested in tools development (assembler, cruncher, player, etc.)... Shame, the battle would have been hard and interesting :)
If it's an assembler shouldn't it be called Orgasm? :D
Bryce.
Well, for an AMStrad both are accurate...
Quote from: Bryce on 16:11, 28 April 14
If it's an assembler shouldn't it be called Orgasm? :D
Wow! That must be a VERY intense assembler! ^_^
Quote from: Bryce on 16:11, 28 April 14
If it's an assembler shouldn't it be called Orgasm? :D
I would agree if I hadn't spend the last week writing a tilemap routine in Z80.
Therefore, the nearest approximation for a name I would suggest is "Married".
Quote from: MaV on 18:59, 27 April 14@TMR (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=320): Has there ever been a similar situation in the C64 community?
Yes, on a few occasions; ever since the C64 scene switched from lots of small demos to the larger production numbers around the end of the 1980s there's always been a 500 pound gorilla looming over subsequent releases; one of the first that springs to mind is
Dutch Breeze by Black Mail in 1991 (although there were big demos before it the sheer level of presentation was unique at the time) and Booze's X'2008 entry
Edge Of Disgrace is still probably the current top dog with the recent comebacks from Censor Design and Oxyron nipping at it's heels.
It doesn't usually stop the smaller productions coming out, but i do remember some fairly fallow periods around the late 1990s where coders were less inclined to release something that wasn't at least fairly substantial.
Any chance to DSK version of Breaking Baud ?
Quote from: ZbyniuR on 10:28, 29 April 14
Any chance to DSK version of Breaking Baud ?
That's a good one ;D
Quote from: ZbyniuR on 10:28, 29 April 14
Any chance to DSK version of Breaking Baud ?
Now that's a challenge! Tape streaming from a disc!
That could result in some pretty spectacular demos!
Better yet... a 464 emulator for the 6128!
Quote from: Gryzor on 12:35, 29 April 14
Better yet... a 464 emulator for the 6128!
Surely that already exists. It's a hardware emulator in the form of a set of audio leads and a cheap and nasty mono voice recorder.
Quote from: ZbyniuR on 10:28, 29 April 14
Any chance to DSK version of Breaking Baud ?
Haha! But seriously, I think the issue here is that the tape demo works because the bit rate of loading from tape is so low that you have spare CPU power to implement a LZ77 decompressor and audio player. I don't think there is much spare CPU time when loading from disc, even with a custom trackloader, to do realtime LZ77 decompression that doesn't actually mean you're loading from disc slower than normal to allow the CPU time to do its thing.
But it wouldn't be useless - I don't know how well graphics compress with LZ77, but you can fit a lot more graphics and game levels on a disc with compression than not, which is really useful.
Quote from: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 18:45, 29 April 14
But seriously, I think the issue here is that the tape demo works because the bit rate of loading from tape is so low that you have spare CPU power to implement a LZ77 decompressor and audio player. I don't think there is much spare CPU time when loading from disc, even with a custom trackloader, to do realtime LZ77 decompression that doesn't actually mean you're loading from disc slower than normal to allow the CPU time to do its thing.
That's somewhat true, but it's not totally accurate. There isn't really a lot of CPU idle time when reading from the tape - I sample the tape every 31us and the code to do that is 12us long, which if you compare to a disk is quite similar (with a disk you might need about 16us every 32us), and in fact people have interleaved the disk IO code with other operations already.
Actually, in the tape system, the 12us is just to sample to tape data if there are no pulses. Whenever there is a pulse, the CPU is fully busy for maybe another 100us.
With a disk system, there's some dead time between sectors when the CPU is idle even if you interleave your sectors on the disk to try to minimise it, and so it's probably just as easy to do realtime decompression from disk. Also, whenever you step the disk head, there's a reasonably long period when you won't get any data.
But, one of the real reasons why the compression works well on tape is because it's almost "free". With a normal compression system, you might have a single bit that tells you if the next byte is a literal byte or decompressed, so straight away your compressed data is 12% bigger in the worst case and you hope to make back that loss through good compression results on the rest of the data. With my tape loader, the coded stream coming from the tape produces slightly higher than 8-bit (it ranges 0-276) and so there's nothing added to literals and there are 21 control sequences to indicate the next bytes form part of a compressed sequence.
There's a technical write up and source code here: https://github.com/ralferoo/breaking-baud/blob/master/docs/technical.txt (https://github.com/ralferoo/breaking-baud/blob/master/docs/technical.txt) (which hasn't been particularly well proofread yet and might contain some mistakes!)
Quote from: mr_lou on 17:24, 26 April 14
(How about changing your nick in here to Doz, since that is the nick you're using?)
Nah, I'm ralferoo almost everywhere except the demoscene. And that was just because ralferoo didn't sound 1337 enough! :laugh:
Quote from: ralferoo on 19:18, 29 April 14
Nah, I'm ralferoo almost everywhere except the demoscene. And that was just because ralferoo didn't sound 1337 enough! :laugh:
You're also doz on IRC...
it's easy for little me (and other little people) to get confused.
Quote from: mr_lou on 19:25, 29 April 14
You're also doz on IRC... it's easy for little me (and other little people) to get confused.
Only in the demoscene IRC channels... ;) I'm ralferoo in #cpc on freenode for instance!
Quote from: ralferoo on 19:11, 29 April 14
I sample the tape every 31us
us...
us....
US....Here's something for your copy/pasting needs:μ
Quote from: Gryzor on 08:33, 30 April 14
Here's something for your copy/pasting needs: μ
Heh, it was ME that started that other thread! But anyway, if I'm using Linux, I can type it. If I'm using Windows, I can't so I type us instead.
Just admit it, you feel all warm and cuddly and just want us to be a thing...
Quote from: ralferoo on 10:06, 30 April 14
Heh, it was ME that started that other thread! But anyway, if I'm using Linux, I can type it. If I'm using Windows, I can't so I type us instead.
Then fix your Linux! :D Look! Works fine for me: µ
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 13:09, 30 April 14
Then fix your Linux! :D Look! Works fine for me: µ
Fix your parser... ;) It works fine in Linux, just not in Windows!
Ah, it's my eyes that need fixing, read your post wrong :D So why doesn't windows support your keyboard?
Bryce.
one of the rare good aspect of azerty keyboard is that it actually features the µ...
but I suppose greek keyboard is even superior in those pesky greek letters... so usefull for math and physics...
The µ key ? :-\
The AZERTY keyboard is just the worst thing that came on CPC.
Most keys are not properly mapped. (ex: ç display \, à display @, | display ù) and as I know, there is no µ key, only the char on the key table, like all CPC. (but miss { and } chars, useful for C programming, ...)
Yeah, if only the CPC had come with an ALT key as well, and characters mapped appropriately on the keyboard. Right ctrl would have been nice as well.
I suspect the implementation didn't support any additional modifier keys though.
Quote from: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 09:57, 01 May 14
Yeah, if only the CPC had come with an ALT key as well, and characters mapped appropriately on the keyboard. Right ctrl would have been nice as well.
I suspect the implementation didn't support any additional modifier keys though.
You have that with FutureOS ;) The keyboard has four levels. All 256 characters are therefore accessible by the keyboard. The trick is to use four levels:
- normal
- with Shift
- with Control
- with Shift & Control - this can be the ALT level. Also you can define every key as "ALT" if you feel like doing this
Sorry for getting offtopic, but currently I'm a lot into keyboard stuff and all so on.
Back to topic...
Yes, I am a little bit late, but just want to tell you my respect for this great piece of art!
You created a new type of CPC demo style, and this was very impressive. That's a nice bithday present for the 464! It was amazing to watch the live video of the presentation on the Revision party!!
LOL, no problem with the typo, I am proud and glad to be mentioned in your greetings, thank you very much! :)
PS: ...and in SymbOS the COPY key is used for ALT, that was somehow most logical because of its position on the keyboard IMHO ;D
"That was awesome! Absolutely Brilliant!" ;D
Starting at 13:58.
Revision 2014 - Compos - Oldskool Demo - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8sxnxnAyH0)
The video thumbnail is the CRTC logo ;D
Very nice work with the demo! :)
I actually tried it on tape but I guess I need to adjust my levels or something as it does find the Breaking Baud first block but then just keeps loading as usual instead of starting to play the demo. It's been saved and played with the same data recorder. The level has been set about 75 % of the slider scale.
Quote from: Prodatron on 19:28, 02 May 14
I am proud and glad to be mentioned in your greetings, thank you very much! :)
Yeah, me too, thanks.
Me three. :)
Just amazing!!!
Quote from: protek on 05:47, 05 May 14
Very nice work with the demo! :)
I actually tried it on tape but I guess I need to adjust my levels or something as it does find the Breaking Baud first block but then just keeps loading as usual instead of starting to play the demo. It's been saved and played with the same data recorder. The level has been set about 75 % of the slider scale.
I have made a tape copy, and it works perfectly on a CPC 6128. Just waiting for the components before testing it on my plus! ☺
Quote from: CraigsBar on 15:54, 09 May 14
I have made a tape copy, and it works perfectly on a CPC 6128. Just waiting for the components before testing it on my plus! ☺
What software did you use to play back the file to the recorder? Did you use the same recorder for saving and loading? What was your recording level?
Quote from: protek on 12:28, 12 May 14
What software did you use to play back the file to the recorder? Did you use the same recorder for saving and loading? What was your recording level?
I recorded it on the same recorder as I use on the CPC yes.
A very low tech solution...
1. Set default output on the Mac Pro to the headphone socket
2. Connect mono voice recorder and set playback volume to about 75%
3. Playback the WAV with vlc and NO FILTERS and record it from the headphone socket via a short headphone to headphone patch cable.
If you want a copy, send me a tape and I'll make another and post it to you.
I am a bit short on tapes myself!
Regards
Craig.
I used to do the hard way too with volume controls etc. Lately I discovered an old CD-Tape player in my closet ;D
Well the procedure is simple, cdt2wav and burn to a cd on my pc. Then I record the cd to the tape no matter the volume is. A bit lucky...
I used WinTZX to output the .cdt to wav and played that through the headphone output of my laptop directly to the Philips NMS-1515 datacorder. I then connected the Philips into my Amstrad for playback. The input level of the Philips was around 75% but didn't check what kind of signal the laptop was actually pushing out from the headphone jack.
i am now a VERY Happy person...
After about 21 years since AA Published the Schematics for the Tape mod on a 6128+ I have finally done it, and all because of Breaking Baud.
I can report that the Mod works fine, my soldering skills are not totally useless afterall. remote works and i found a nice clicky relay - way louder than I remember my long since defunct CPC 464 being ;D
And Breaking Baud is even more awesome on a 6128+, The sound track is incredibly good on the stereo monitor with a nice bassline to match the mood of the images.
I love it, and have to thank all involved in this demo for finally making me get the Plus Tape mod complete.
As I bought the components on Ebay from china in packs of 5, 10 or 100 I can now make up some spare Plus Upgrade kits if anyone is interested? ;)
Regard
Craig.
This is really touching, man. Thank you :D
Quote from: McKlain on 21:59, 19 May 14
This is really touching, man. Thank you :D
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD33AxebRAg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD33AxebRAg#ws)
;D
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/jlutin/attachment_zpsc6ae015b.jpg)
Congratulations, that image makes my Chrome go into full-on malware lockdown. :)
Fixed.
Quote from: MacDeath on 17:18, 20 May 14
Here was youtube link
;D
80s pop music and videos were amongst the cheesiest yet coolest ever!
Quote80s pop music and videos were amongst the cheesiest yet coolest ever!
you says that because between 30's and 40's... year old (not years of birth) (50's ?) so groowe up in the 80's... so yeah... cool period.. too groove up with... and first Amstrad generation too.
Quote from: MacDeath on 01:13, 25 May 14
you says that because between 30's and 40's... year old (not years of birth) (50's ?) so groowe up in the 80's... so yeah... cool period.. too groove up with... and first Amstrad generation too.
nope.. I say that coz I know it all!
Awesome concept and execution. Congratulations.
Got it working. Had to set recording level a bit higher. Thanks for a great demo! :D
I've found that the 6128plus needs a significantly higher volume recorded tone than the CPC 6128 does. However both load from the MacBook Pro at the exact same volume.
Conclusion, The plus is less tolerant to an unclean or low volume signal, However once a clean signal is provided it seems to work at much lower volume than the CPC 6128.
Breaking Baud itself is well worth the trouble just so say you have run it form a cassette, However having done that I now run it from my MBP (Play direct from the CDT with CDT2WAV) for the sake of reliability.
Made an interesting observation. If I power my datacorder with an 800 mA PSU, it finds the file but doesn't run the demo. If I power the same datacorder with a 1,7 A PSU, the demo will be run. Does it mean that my datacorder draws more current than 800 mA?
Quote from: protek on 21:48, 16 June 14
Made an interesting observation. If I power my datacorder with an 800 mA PSU, it finds the file but doesn't run the demo. If I power the same datacorder with a 1,7 A PSU, the demo will be run. Does it mean that my datacorder draws more current than 800 mA?
I was all hopefull of this too. Until I found it does not help me.
I was running my Radio Shack Cassette Voice Recorder with a spare Amstrad CD player 6v 400mA power brick , and wondered if changing the power woudl help. It didn't Using a very large and cumbersome Multi-voltage supply that delivers 6v 3.6A made no difference.
Breaking Baud still loads perfectly on the CPC 6128's and seamingly rndomly on the Plus. I can therefore only assume that the plus is more delicate when it comes to tape volumes than the older CPC 6128 is/was.
Oh well Like I said I can sometimes get it to run on the plus from tape... the rest of the time it works perfectly from the hiss and static free WAV or MP3 played from my macBook Pro.
Craig
Quote from: protek on 21:48, 16 June 14
Made an interesting observation. If I power my datacorder with an 800 mA PSU, it finds the file but doesn't run the demo. If I power the same datacorder with a 1,7 A PSU, the demo will be run. Does it mean that my datacorder draws more current than 800 mA?
Short answer is yes (duh), slightly longer answer is that it may only require the higher current for arbitrarily short periods. My hunch is tape wow, with the spindle being a bit harder to turn at one point in each revolution. If there's not enough current (and hence motor torque) at that point, the playback will slow down momentarily.
Hardstyle extended version makes a wonderful ringtone on my mobile!
Quote from: CraigsBar on 15:43, 18 June 14
Hardstyle extended version makes a wonderful ringtone on my mobile!
Great! ;D
Listening to the extended version on the hi-fi right now, I'm sure missus is getting annoyed :D
Quote from: Gryzor on 17:17, 22 June 14
Listening to the extended version on the hi-fi right now, I'm sure missus is getting annoyed :D
Because she didn't compose it? :)
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 08:47, 24 June 14
Because she didn't compose it? :)
Bryce.
Yeah, she was
that jealous!
I now have my 464plus, It is as wonderfully un-yellow as the pictures show :)
I have tested the tape and Fantasy World Dizzy (Which was included) loads perfectly, I have also bought a Tape Adaptor and I have loaded relentless CDT from TapDancer using my Nexus 7, which also loaded perfectly.
However I cannot get Breaking Baud to load on the 464+ at all. The initial loader is fine, however the turbo data section does not load. Unlike the 6128plus tape drive mod I did, the border bars stay the correct colours and not the read error shades.
The same happens on both a real cassette and using tapDancer. Although the real cassette is confirmed as working on the 6128plus and CPC's
I just wondered if the loader for Breaking Baud is 128k only or if something else is kaput on this 464 plus??
Craig
Quote from: CraigsBar on 16:02, 03 July 14
I now have my 464plus, It is as wonderfully un-yellow as the pictures show :)
I have tested the tape and Fantasy World Dizzy (Which was included) loads perfectly, I have also bought a Tape Adaptor and I have loaded relentless CDT from TapDancer using my Nexus 7, which also loaded perfectly.
However I cannot get Breaking Baud to load on the 464+ at all. The initial loader is fine, however the turbo data section does not load. Unlike the 6128plus tape drive mod I did, the border bars stay the correct colours and not the read error shades.
The same happens on both a real cassette and using tapDancer. Although the real cassette is confirmed as working on the 6128plus and CPC's
I just wondered if the loader for Breaking Baud is 128k only or if something else is kaput on this 464 plus??
Craig
It should work on a 464+ but I haven't actually tested it since the demo was finished. A very early version was running on 464+ from tape though.
Regarding "the border bars stay the correct colours and not the read error shades", there are actually 3 sets of colours and the transitions between them aren't perfect... There's "yellow/blue" for no errors detected, "green/green" whilst looking for a pilot tone, "green/black" for found a block that has already been loaded and "green/red" for found a block that's later in the tape than the current block. However, it transitions on error / success, so it might be confusing as if the pilot tone is never detected at all, then it won't report an error.
It's almost certainly a volume issue. If you use tap dancer and increase or decrease the volume, you might see it transition from green/green to green/red at which point it's read the pilot tone and realised the tape is too far ahead. At that point you should be good to rewind and try again.
I need to figure out why volume is such a problem with this demo... as one of my design goals when making the loader was to be as tolerant of volume as possible and it clearly went wrong at some point between my prototype (which seemed more reliable than the normal loader) and the final demo which has stricter requirements on the timing of each pulse (and so volume).
Quote from: ralferoo on 17:35, 03 July 14
It should work on a 464+ but I haven't actually tested it since the demo was finished. A very early version was running on 464+ from tape though.
Regarding "the border bars stay the correct colours and not the read error shades", there are actually 3 sets of colours and the transitions between them aren't perfect... There's "yellow/blue" for no errors detected, "green/green" whilst looking for a pilot tone, "green/black" for found a block that has already been loaded and "green/red" for found a block that's later in the tape than the current block. However, it transitions on error / success, so it might be confusing as if the pilot tone is never detected at all, then it won't report an error.
It's almost certainly a volume issue. If you use tap dancer and increase or decrease the volume, you might see it transition from green/green to green/red at which point it's read the pilot tone and realised the tape is too far ahead. At that point you should be good to rewind and try again.
I need to figure out why volume is such a problem with this demo... as one of my design goals when making the loader was to be as tolerant of volume as possible and it clearly went wrong at some point between my prototype (which seemed more reliable than the normal loader) and the final demo which has stricter requirements on the timing of each pulse (and so volume).
Thanks for that clarification. I'll fiddle when I get it home and let you know.
Craig.
Quote from: ralferoo on 17:35, 03 July 14
there are actually 3 sets of colours and the transitions between them aren't perfect...
There's "yellow/blue", "green/green", "green/black" and "green/red"
Ehhhh, isn't that 4? :D
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 08:19, 04 July 14
Ehhhh, isn't that 4? :D
Bryce.
He's used to zero-indexing. :P
OK. I have found out that I can load and run breaking baud perfectly every time on my 6128plus as follows....
1. TapDancer and CDT on nexus 7 (volume 7)
2. CD tape adaptor from n7 headphone socket to mono voice recorder
3. Voice recorder volume at 100%
4. Tape cable with remote to tape mod din socket.
Oddly when the n7 is connected directly to the din socket then not even the initial loader loads. And the n7 is not loud enough even on volume 15 to load anything but the initial loader on the 464plus with the car tape adaptor.
Craig.
where did you find the components for the tape drive on the 6128PLUS ?
i really think someone with access to decently priced suppliers should assemble kits an sell them.
be it FDC+RAM kit for 464PLUS or Tape kit for 6128PLUS...
There may be easily like 25to50 users that would buy it i guess... still this makes for quite some cash to advance.
I would easily equip two or tree of my 6128PLUS with tape option... for sure.
Concerning your PLUS : how do you get the loading sound to be played ? those PLUS are not supposed to play them via the speakers if I remember correctly...
One of the thing with breaking baud is that it actually uses the loading sound with the music.
Adding a tape socket to a 6128+ requires 3 components: 1x Resistor, 1x Capacitor and a socket. Total cost is about 80 cents. Total cost for "someone with connections" is about 50 cents. Would it really make sense to make kits to save 30 cents?
As far as 464+ to 6128+ conversions are concerned. I can organise parts for anyone who needs a "Kit", but getting the parts isn't the problem, it's quite an involved mod, which I wouldn't recommend to an absolute beginner.
Bryce.
Quote from: MacDeath on 14:00, 10 July 14
Concerning your PLUS : how do you get the loading sound to be played ? those PLUS are not supposed to play them via the speakers if I remember correctly...
You don't, as far as I know... :(
I remember the day I got my 464+ and felt all sad when I was loading my first tape on it...
QuoteI remember the day I got my 464+ and felt all sad when I was loading my first tape on it...
I remember the day I got my CPC6128 and felt all happy when I was loading my first disk on it...
:D
but yeah, they screwed it all with no "counter" nor loading sound...
Can't you add some jumper-cables to get it right again?
I guess if you use external "tape drive" it can display its own sound, or "tape dancer/emulator" may enable to then get a jack double-plug on the MP3 and redirect it also on some speaker as well...
QuoteAdding a tape socket to a 6128+ requires 3 components: 1x Resistor, 1x Capacitor and a socket. Total cost is about 80 cents. Total cost for "someone with connections" is about 50 cents. Would it really make sense to make kits to save 30 cents?
Really ?
I should really get into that one day then...
Quote from: MacDeath on 14:00, 10 July 14
where did you find the components for the tape drive on the 6128PLUS ?
i really think someone with access to decently priced suppliers should assemble kits an sell them.
be it FDC+RAM kit for 464PLUS or Tape kit for 6128PLUS...
There may be easily like 25to50 users that would buy it i guess... still this makes for quite some cash to advance.
I would easily equip two or tree of my 6128PLUS with tape option... for sure.
Concerning your PLUS : how do you get the loading sound to be played ? those PLUS are not supposed to play them via the speakers if I remember correctly...
One of the thing with breaking baud is that it actually uses the loading sound with the music.
I said a few posts ago I have spare components to make up a tape mod as I bought them on EBAY in large numbers.
I have....
9 spare DIN Sockets
4 spare Relays
4 spare Mobo Headers/plugs/spring crimps
99 spare resistors
99 spare capacitors
If anyone is interested in a kit, you will only need to add your own wire and de/soldering skills
Craig
On my cost down :
It works... but only at 100% of my desktop PC sound! (and of course using my phone doesn't deliver enough volume).
I guess i have the same problems than CPC+
In fact i am beginning to wonder if i have not all the problems of the CPC+ without the advantages :D (like CPC+ i don't have the sound of the tapes, but i don't kno if it's common to all 6128)
I got a regular CPC6128 (main board replaced 1987, but no cost down!) with me, it seems that also the sound does not get into the inside of the CPC. I have to check again though. However this is no problem at all, would be a nice bonus. But the point is: It's great to use extra boxes for the extra sound. F.e. for "Cyber Chicken (http://cc-cpc.de)" is was planned that way. So you hear the cannons roaring from both sides as you fire from left and right. IMHO four speakers are super cool for the CPC.
Hello, just wanted to say that was an excellent demo...