Hello. As I already wrote it in my presentation, I come from the c64 world and I recently discovered CPC demos. Here are some curious feelings about them: since the release of Batman Forever by Batman Group, there was nothing serious released. Don't get me wrong, there were some demos with many effects and lots of technics involved, implying a lot of work. But these demos are just a compilation of effects with no design, and often boring to watch. There were also neat 4k intros, but honestly, they just are little things. I find it a bit curious because the most popular CPC demo was made by an Amiga programmer. It seems that the CPC sceners have a high level of technic but don't know how to make good demos. Or maybe I'm wrong and they are not ambitious enough? Sorry if I am a little harsh but that is the view from a c64 user. Any demo programmer in the room?
Quote from: Bug Powell on 11:34, 25 May 21I come from the c64 world and I recently discovered CPC demos. Here are some curious feelings about them: since the release of Batman Forever by Batman Group, there was nothing serious released.
:laugh:
I tend to disagree, many great things have been done. I actually don't particularly enjoy the Batman demo anymore (but no denying on what it brought to the table!!), because latest productions are more interesting.
But I think "we" still have to learn how to properly do a demo with great transitions, synchronized with music, etc. We come from a looooong history of coders asking a graphist for a logo of *this* size, without context, a font for a scroller, and using a music ripped from a game, and that would be the demo. Things are changing :).
Quote from: Bug Powell on 11:34, 25 May 21there was nothing serious released
Sure, Batman For Ever was a HUGE milestone for the Amstrad demoscene and raised the bar to new levels.
Please refer to this (non exclusive!) list gathered from Pouet for everything released since.
Most of them are gems from my point of view.
Amstrad demos are different from C64 ones, and I'm perfectly fine with that. :)
Can Robots Take Control? by Benediction (April 2021): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=88554 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=88554)
Square Roots by Vanity (April 2020): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=85287 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=85287)
Octopus Pocus by Pulpo Corrosivo (April 2019): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=81008 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=81008)
Gloire a Piou! (April 2019): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=81132 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=81132)
One Screen Colonies #0 by Vanity (July 2018): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=76730 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=76730)
Isometrikum by Vanity (April 2018): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=75754 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=75754)
phX by Condense (April 2018): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=75725 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=75725)
Logon's run - 3D meets the aging bits by Login System (April 2017): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=69651 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=69651)
30 Years Amstrad Megademo by Benediction & Others (June 2016): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=67656 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=67656)
Battro by Batman Group (January 2015): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=64959 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=64959)
Breaking Baud by CRTC & 3LN (April 2014): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62934 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62934)
Phortem by Condense (June 2013): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=61465 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=61465)
Still Rising by Vanity (March 2013): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=61177 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=61177)
Yap by Logon System (October 2012): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=60660 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=60660)
Bloc Us by Benediction (August 2011): https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=57525 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=57525)
First I want to avoid any misunderstanding: I respect the work of any coder put into a demo, especially on old platforms. All the demos listed by norecess are technically impressive and required a massive work. My criticism are not intended to hurt anyone, I know that it is hard to make a demo on old hardware. However (I don't speak about 4k intros which I consider as little prods not that serious): as I pointed out in my first post, the demos listed by norecess are a compilation of effects. One effect after the other with no logic or direction. Almost no sync with music. Effects are not integrated into a good flow. It is technically impressive but if you are not aware of the CPC limitations, it is hard to fully appreciate and it can be boring. It is obvious that no real designer worked on all these demos. It is what I tried to explain. Batman Forever was great, because even if you don't know CPC, you still enjoy it and take it in your face. On this way, I have to admit that Logon's run - 3D meets the aging bits by Logon System was a good try but it lacks of graphics and good sync with the music.
Shit, let's hope @Targhan (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=110) will not read this comment ;)
Interesting topic. The first thing one needs to take into account is that the norm with CPC demos is they are made by crews of 3 people in most cases; even less in some. We are a small scene in comparison to the C64 where you can find demos done by an 'army' of developers.
Since your argument seems to be mostly focused on graphics/design, it's fact that graphic designers on CPC are even less than coders; and even fewer create original work from scratch (ie not reworked images from other media even if results are really good in a few instances). If you take Batman Forever as an example, I think we are matured enough to admit that while it was a technical marvel that dropped our jaws and has a flow and pace, the biggest part of it's graphical side is based on existing pictures which were wired and reworked and with results being mostly average.
So, no, there arent many 'graphically heavy' demos on CPC, but even so, demos in later years have very tight and coherent design (my mind goes to Vanity prods and Logon's Run as my first picks but that's without disregarding other people) which, in my opinion, is a benefit that comes from being made by crews of 2-3 people instead of a dozen. I admit there's instances I've thought (and complained to coders :P ) that certain CPC demos might had been even better with some additional graphics, but in demos code is king and always will be (and what better example than Batman Forever, right?).
I am wondering though, what demo examples from the C64 scene you might be having in mind as 'well designed' and 'exciting to watch'? Would you care to share your ideas?
Quote from: Bug Powell on 15:31, 25 May 21
Effects are not integrated into a good flow.
Like most of Amiga/C64 demos, only FX succeeding other FX, and short black screens between them...
Even when people says that demo is a good demo with flow and "no black screen", there is no flow and black screens between FX
In psychology we call this "denial"
Regards
ps: and don't get me wrong, i like those demos ;D
rexbeng: I am more focused on design, flow, rythm, that kind of things, than on graphics. I agree that Batman Forever graphics are not a revolution. However the flow, rythm, design, interaction with music are amazing. I didn't find any CPC demo with these criteria at the same level. You quoted Vanity demos: of course it is beautiful and technical, but the criteria I pointed out are missing. Boogie Factor (https://csdb.dk/release/?id=19296) or Sharp (https://csdb.dk/release/?id=50575) could illustrate my words (effects and graphics are average).
roudoudou: there are tons of c64 demos lacking of good flow. I just said that I didn't found any CPC demo with a good flow, contrary to c64 which has some. Also, what is the problem with black screens?
Black screens cut the flow, they are also the evidence of lazyness and/or lack of technical habilities (i include myself)
there is very few productions with full transitions between FX (you see, maybe i'm more fundamentalist than you ;D )
Anyway, CPC scene is a very small scene, how can you expect the same amount of great productions as commodore scene?
Black screens because of lack of technical habilities or lazyness (I agree with you, it is often the case), and black screens because of the designer's choice (it sometimes happens) are two different things. In the second case, it doesn't cut the flow, or it is done on purpose.
To me, flow and transitions are two differents things. You can have a good flow with no transitions.
Also I never expected anything. Sorry if my posts let you think the contrary.
I see. You are mostly talking about themed demos then, where the main purpose of making the demo is to tell a 'story' rather than make some technical achievement. Well, telling a story (in oldschool demos in general) is mostly achieved with having a good number of pictures (either drawn or procedural) to go alongside it, I believe. The two C64 demos you mentioned do pretty much that (and thanks for reminding me of Sharp; I hadnt watched it in years). But generally I believe it's hard to do themed demos when you dont have enough people in the scene who can produce content for themed demos. If you take a look at Vanity 4K intros it's easy to understand that those could very well be parts of a bigger, themed demo. I mean, those C64 demos you showcased are pretty much '4k parts with a common theme packed together'. All in all, I find the CPC demoscene to be mostly about the technical achievement rather than storytelling.
That said, I personally regard the design of both Logon's Run and Still Rising higher than Boogie Factor and Sharp.
Quote from: krusty on 16:25, 25 May 21Shit, let's hope @Targhan (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=110) will not read this comment
And I cried all the tears in the oceans! :)
I think the CRTC demo (for which I provided the music) is one good step towards what a well synced demo can be, but I was only involved at the very end. Like I said, only recently are people working as a team. This will get better.
As for the Batman, there is no difference I think. It is "only" a suite of effects more or less synced with the music. But it was the first big trackmo, which is why it made a difference.
If you dismiss 4k intros on the CPC, you're really disregarding most of the productions of the last couple of years.
Besides 4k prod are in no way lesser prods than "real" demos. I challenge you to list C64 productions that are comparable to the likes of Vanity's and Benediction's in norecess' list. And let's not forget that the C64 scene is bigger than the CPC scene by a huge amount, so I expect an order of magnitude more 4k productions that rival the CPC's 4k intros.
Hi @Bug Powell (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4275) : Can you please point me to a youtube video of a c64 demo (or two) which so have that kind of flow and the features you request please?
gunhed and mav: I never said anywhere in my posts that c64 was better or anything like that. I was just wondering why no demo since 10 years could kick Batman Forever on the design, flow, rythm side. You are too much into a war CPC vs c64 which is not my cup of tea. I like demos whatever the platform (otherwise I would not be there). I dismiss 4k intros because I speak about big demos, it can in no way be compared to them. I don't request anything, I just share my feelings.
targhan: I did not say that CPC demos were not sync at all. But not well enough.
rexbeng: theme is not mandatory to have a good flow or rythm. Without any theme, Batman Forever would be as good (or even better as I found the batman theme ridiculous).
By reading everybody's comments it seems that I am totally wrong, nobody see any rythm, flow, design problem in any CPC demo.
It is true that CPC sceners might get a bit defensive when they feel there's comparisons with C64 involved. Please don't let that put you off. I am actively involved in both the CPC and the C64 scenes and other than joking with the platforms' weaknesses and advantages there's no hatchet that needs be buried. ;D
So, to sum things up, if you are absolutely looking for a demo that has everything, ie: rhythm and sync with music, and flow, and length, and transitions, and theme..., well, Batman Forever is the only candidate.
But allow me to differ: 'well designed demo' doesnt mean that it necessarily needs to meet EVERY criteria. So I do find certain CPC demos to be very well designed (or perhaps the better term might be 'well directed').
So, all in all, because we are very few people in the CPC scene, it is VERY HARD to produce what you call 'big demos' with all of the above checked. I would say the CPC scene prefers well designed small productions or tightly designed bigger demos that meet certain criteria with the weight put on the technical side. And this seems to work out well so far, as a few of the higher regarded demos/intros produced are indeed very well done.
I find that it's fair.
What's a fact is that the C64 scene produces each year more than one demo of the same calibre as of Batman Forever. The C64 scene is much larger and popular and has way more talented and active groups than on the CPC. So, it's true the numbers of massive epic demos on C64 is more than one per year. On CPC it's Batman Forever,.. oh wait? What about https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=88554 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=88554) or https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=75725 (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=75725). But it's true as C64 is much more popular with much more active an robust in their composition groups, and more represented in big parties, it's going to produce more. But I am happy with the CPC, I can enjoy the smaller demos too and appreciate them for what they are. Afterall, other small less known computer and console scenes suffer from the same thing too.
Now, I was under the impression all demos are really effects after effects divided by transitions and some random bitmap thrown there, even those who are consider to have great design. Unless the demo is made exclusively to tell a story (and I find certain demos which pretend to tell a story but then throw you some effects that happened to fit maybe). While I like some original graphics and some nice transitions in between (which for my coder's mind, transitions are also effects, a bit hard and interesting to pull out from a programmer's perspective), there is not much difference between the CPC demos and the C64, except the bigger amount of good demos produced per years and the more robust talented groups producing massive graphics for a single demo (all those tired multriscreen scrolling graphics in several of the C64 demos).
Quote from: Bug Powell on 02:35, 26 May 21
mav: I never said anywhere in my posts that c64 was better or anything like that. I was just wondering why no demo since 10 years could kick Batman Forever on the design, flow, rythm side. You are too much into a war CPC vs c64 which is not my cup of tea. I like demos whatever the platform (otherwise I would not be there). I dismiss 4k intros because I speak about big demos, it can in no way be compared to them. I don't request anything, I just share my feelings.
I asked for comparable intros. You're assuming that I "wage wars", this notion is ridiculous. I personally know a lot more C64- than CPC sceners simply because Central Europe is dominated by Commodore, and never had a problem with them.I asked for comparable C64 intros since that is the platform you're familiar with. You cannot deny that you disregard intros as lesser and that is the point of contention.The question why there are no more big demos is easy: smaller community, fewer big demos.
I might also add that with a bigger community a synergetic effect sets in, like in "the whole is bigger than the sum of its parts". Bigger scene = many more big demos than its size suggests.
Terms like design, flow and rhythm are much too vague and everybody has different personal tastes as to what qualifies as good design, flow and rhythm. This is the reason why people ask for examples, nothing more, nothing less. It's an enquiry about your personal tastes. Only when we know your preferences can we agree or disagree to them.
And to avert the looming "wars", you're free to give examples from the Amiga, Spectrum, PC, or any other scene.
Maybe the CPC demo community is small because it is a very closed world. If someone coming from another community makes some criticism, it is rejected. It gives the impression that the CPC people are closed to every criticism and think their demo are perfect gems.
The CPC community has talented programmers, graphic artists and musicians. We can see their amazing abilities in the list of demos given by norecess. I totally agree with that. My surprise is just: why these talented people didn't wake up one morning by saying "my next release will kick Batman Group's butt". Being a small community is not good argument: there were not 20 programmers involved in Batman Forever. It is 10 years old now.
What I think is that you are rather closed to answers given to you by users of the machine.
I don't think you get this right .... there are people that like technical things/demos and some like more a story telling demo that gets you on a ride and BECAUSE there are more active C64 sceners that make demos, there are of course more that also tell a story ...
Oh and if you speak of critisism and/or bashing, there is way more CPC bashing in a C64 forum than C64 bashing in a CPC forum .... but oh well
I know both since I use both sides of the ocean (C64 AND CPC) and both have their benefits and downsides ...
toto: I can't find any answers from you in the discussion.
skulleater: in my initial post, I asked a simple question but everybody seemed to be hurted by it which was not my goal.
You got plenty of answers here ... and btw. this is in your post :
Quote
It seems that the CPC sceners have a high level of technic but don't know how to make good demos.
But that's VERY individuel, some demos I love are not liked by others, so what .... I think there are many good CPC demos out threre but that is because I'm not after a good story to be told !!! It doesn't depend on the system, it's just personal taste !
Batman Forever is awesome and looks more like a Commodore demo, maybe because the group came from the Amiga.
I think you have to understand that this is a cultural reason, as the Japanese don't like American games, because they don't have the same codes to be able to appreciate them.
You expect to see Batman Forever in the staging, with a common thread very identified as the theme, but in the end it's still a succession of effects. In short, it's a demo.
Personally, I don't like most C64 productions, because it relies too often on sprites limitations and I only see that. What I like about CPC is that ultimately, you can do whatever you want and do very different things as long as you take the trouble to be technical.
You will understand, we should not want to see the CPC through the C64 spectrum because a demo brought to this machine. It's a good start, it's deserved, but now you have to understand things differently.
To be honest, before seeing CPC demos I was watching Amiga demos ... It's like immersing yourself in another culture, it takes time.
Quote from: Bug Powell on 09:55, 26 May 21
My surprise is just: why these talented people didn't wake up one morning by saying "my next release will kick Batman Group's butt".
Maybe because these talented people have already done that? :)
I think you have gotten many answers to your questions by many people, and nobody was 'hostile' towards you. Plenty of CPC demo releases after Batman Forever are BETTER than Batman Forever in pretty much everything besides the demo's length. Ofcourse I am expressing my personal opinion but I think you'd get a similar answer from various people in the CPC scene (either being in the coding or graphics branch). I understand that you enjoy demos that meet certain criteria, but your criteria is different to other peoples', whether we are specifically talking CPC demos, or C64 demos, or demos in general. People don't like and dont have to like the same things. :)
You are ofcourse welcome to share your opinion and this particular discussion that was sparked by your opinion is truly interesting and I do hope it continues.
Every platform and scene is unique, but none more so than the CPC in my opinion. Technical mastery appears to be more of an obsession than just putting on a show.
I will always prefer Still Rising (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=61177) to Batman Forever (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=56761) for this reason. They're both great demos, it's just that Vanity captures the essence of the CPC.
Hey, I did just ask for an good example. Because I don't have a c64 here (too expensive nowadays) and have no emulator neither. So a link to a youtube video would be great. :)
@Bug Powell (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4275) : I think you bring a good point.
I am huge fan of well timed demos with the right flow too, like Phenomena, Guardian Dragon 2 (first one is good too), Second Reality, Desert Dream, Hardwired, Batman Vuelve and Batman Forever to mention a few.
I can only agree there are too little of this genre on CPC. It is a personal preference of course, more than anything.
There is many good demos on CPC with great design/timing too like Still Rising, PhX, Can Robots Take Control, Logon's run, WakeUP etc. They are just different style, I guess a more modern design.
Anyway, back to the question "Why"? - My guess is it boils down to as many others have already pointed out, too few demo makers on CPC.
I don't think most C64 nor Amiga demos bring that "style" of timing and flow either, their scenes are just bigger, thus there will also be more of those productions.
I too would like to hear the names of some more C64 demos that bring that style, I have seen a few but not many so if you could list a few more, that would be nice.
Does cpcwiki have a discord channel? or are there any discord channel dedicated to cpc?
i don't know if cpcwiki has a discord channel, but we have one.
Who is "we"? and where is the "one"?
So...... no cpc discord channel anywhere? or maybe a mysterious one? ast: can you tell us a bit more about it?
Only available with invitation, but it's difficult to become a member.
First of all, you'll have to become / be a cpc active member.
Second, all admin must say « yes » for your admission.
Third : be cool !
Thanks Bug for your perspective! That's nice and interesting to have an "outsider" point of view.
Ast: seems like quite an exclusive club!
Quote from: m_dr_m on 14:12, 10 June 21
Thanks Bug for your perspective! That's nice and interesting to have an "outsider" point of view.
Ast: seems like quite an exclusive club!
After that you start as a Prospect, where you have to do the usual jobs. Before you get the colour finally. 8)
Quote from: Ast on 12:59, 10 June 21First of all, you'll have to become / be a cpc active member.
Second, all admin must say « yes » for your admission.
Third : be cool !
Fourth: Be French
not especially ! @BSC (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=480) and @rexbeng (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=61) are not french, for example.
Why speaking about a Discord channel where it seems to be nearly impossible to join?
You request new members to be cool, but having such rules to join is not very cool.
It seems more difficult than getting a new job in real life.
Who are the admins who decide if you are nice enough to be part of your closed club?
Why such rules? CPC demos programmers are so good that they don't want to mix with us?
There is a CPC discord server as mentioned here: https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/news-events/new-amstrad-discord-server/msg177024/#msg177024 (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/news-events/new-amstrad-discord-server/msg177024/#msg177024)
From the looks of it, everything related to CPC that gets newly-released or re-discovered is posted in the respective areas. And it's quite crowded as far as I can tell.
Quote from: Bug Powell on 10:38, 11 June 21Why speaking about a Discord channel where it seems to be nearly impossible to join?You request new members to be cool, but having such rules to join is not very cool.It seems more difficult than getting a new job in real life.Who are the admins who decide if you are nice enough to be part of your closed club?Why such rules? CPC demos programmers are so good that they don't want to mix with us?
You asked about cpc discord channel, I have just answered your question.
It's not impossible to join. There are some rulez, as everywhere I know.
Who decide ? Cpc Discord is managed by admin. I am admin too.
Why such rulez ? We don't need trollers!
Cpc programmers haven't got melon.
Fourth : you'll have to tell us if you want to join us.
I am going to ask for your entry.
Quote from: Bug Powell on 10:38, 11 June 21You request new members to be cool, but having such rules to join is not very cool.
Completely agree. That being said the members are much more friendly than these "rules". Maybe the kindness was lost in translation.
Quote from: Ast on 12:07, 11 June 21We don't need trollers!
One cannot complain about hypocrisy and lack of constructive critics, and then flag honest feedback as "trolling".
Well, one can, but that's double standards.
Let's enjoy gentle and brutal honesty.
rexbeng: thank you for the link, finally there is one channel open to everybody.
ast: some people answered me that there are not much big demos on cpc because the community is small. maybe it is small because it is sooooo hard to be part of it? From an "outsider" 's point of view, it is quite strange if you want some fresh blood. It will not make people wanting to start cpc demos as it is very hard to be in touch with cpc programmers because you have to give a curriculum which will be judged by an expert commission. So serious! cpc scene is not joking :P
As I tell u, i ask for your integration on discord cpc.
I am still waiting forthe two last votes.
I sent you back what council will decide.
Quote from: Bug Powell on 15:00, 11 June 21
rexbeng: thank you for the link, finally there is one channel open to everybody.
ast: some people answered me that there are not much big demos on cpc because the community is small. maybe it is small because it is sooooo hard to be part of it? From an "outsider" 's point of view, it is quite strange if you want some fresh blood. It will not make people wanting to start cpc demos as it is very hard to be in touch with cpc programmers because you have to give a curriculum which will be judged by an expert commission. So serious! cpc scene is not joking :P
I'm sorry, but what do you have done on demo cpc scene before ?
I don't see anything from you before this thread...
I don't claim to be a part of a demoscene on one computer machine when I've done nothing on it !?!
Of course you can be part of the scene without coding something ... but you must release something before cleaming something... speaking with others sceners is a good start also ! ;D
megachur: did I claim anywhere that I was part of the cpc scene?
I just said that if someone wants to be in touch with cpc scene to start making demo, it is very very very complicated. Very discouraging (and your post does not help). Are you part of the expert group mentioned by ast?
As I already wrote in previous posts, I recently discovered cpc community, so of course I didn't release anything yet.
You suggest me to speak with other sceners: it is exactly what I try to do...... no?
Things don't need to be edgy.
Let's just say that there's a discord that's a bit like 'csdb'. And like csdb, it's about members of the CPC-demoscene. So, yes, a somewhat 'closed club'.
But most (if not all) members do participate in other CPC channels such as the cpcwiki. So noone would be missing anything if he needed help with his projects or even just wants communication.
No worries @Bug Powell (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4275) . The Discord that @Ast (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=573) refers to is 95% French-speaking, so I guess you don't miss much anyway.
And (speaking here to everyone, no finger pointing) I feel of course that it's perfectly acceptable to consider being part of the demoscene (and discuss about it) - whatever the scene, the machine.. - with absolutely **nothing** released ("sofa sceners", anyone?).
This thread really went too far. Of course there are ups and downs with the Amstrad demoscene, as in any scene I guess, but I can definitively state that the CPC scene is a great, vibrant, passionate community and that it worth investing some time to understand it. :)
Quote from: Bug Powell on 17:38, 11 June 21
megachur: did I claim anywhere that I was part of the cpc scene?
I just said that if someone wants to be in touch with cpc scene to start making demo, it is very very very complicated. Very discouraging (and your post does not help). Are you part of the expert group mentioned by ast?
As I already wrote in previous posts, I recently discovered cpc community, so of course I didn't release anything yet.
You suggest me to speak with other sceners: it is exactly what I try to do...... no?
Hi,
Sent me a PV, you're welcome on discord cpc.
bye,
D.
I visited the discord channel suggested by rexbeng where I was nicely welcomed. The first thing the admin told me was "hello, welcome here and enjoy your stay with us" and not a list of serious rules (but there are some too). It was really pleasant.
ast: then maybe I will join later as I don't have any french skills (refering to norecess post), except kissing :laugh: more seriously i will join your mysterious channel if i have questions with no answers needing cpc elite's help.
@Bug Powell (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4275) Good thing you found your path. I am a bit curious. Are you in any way involved in the C64 demoscene?
rexbeng: i made some cracktros in the 80s but they were unfortunately lost when i sold my c64 at that time :picard: since then i followed the demoscene as an assiduous spectator.
I see. Alright. I mainly wondered if you had a csdb account. :)
Good to see that the habit of the french CPC scene, namely sticking to french most of the time, once again did not do any harm :P
I was actually surprised (was I?) to see that even here, in the english part of the wiki, complete posts are written in french time
and again.
The same thing on pouet.net or on youtube regarding productions..
I must tell you guys that this is a thing that might be perceived as if you don't want outsiders (as in not french or at least capable
of reading and writing french) to really play along. I know some french sceners struggle with english, but we are such a small scene
(and always have been, makes you wonder), that I just can't understand how we all still haven't agreed on the one language that
suits most of us. Not even close! Even our spanish friends have a lot of spanish sites or twitter accounts or even videos.
I struggle to believe that this is only because people feel their english skills are lacking (please have a native speaker read this rant
and point out all the funny mistakes I made). I rather believe it's some kind of mental lazyness. I say: We can't afford that!
.. yeah, I somehow abused the thread, but seeing all those non-english sites/posts/chats etc. is just beyond me ...
@BSC (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=480) Je suis vraiment d'accord avec toi.
@BSC (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=480) : I get your point.
Yes, of course the language of IT (in general) and demoscene (in particular) is obviously the English language. When you want to communicate widely, there is no choice to use English nowadays. So, I understand your frustration when people "seem" to report important things using their native language.
On the other side -- does this mean everything require to be translated into English ? In other words, should all local communities be starting to use English only for the matter of "international knowledge sharing" ?
From what I observed with the French Amstrad community: when something gets important enough, people tend to use English.
On my side, I continuously use English for years in my productions / communications ; but I use widely French in private / "local" conversations as much as possible.
There is a reason for that: I can definitively state that I would be quite sad (culturally-speaking) to live in a world where only English would be the norm.
Quote from: norecess on 15:31, 18 June 21
On the other side -- does this mean everything require to be translated into English ? In other words, should all local communities be starting to use English only for the matter of "international knowledge sharing" ?
No one ever requested that, or did they? I am referring to publicly visible posts and such. And especially when something is being hosted on non-country specific domains like .com or .net. I might be taking those top-level domains more seriously than other people, but as much as you can expect german content on a .de domain, you should *not* expect that on any of those generic TLDs. The thing is, I believe, that the CPC scene has always been divided into those local communities (formed by language boundaries)
Quote from: norecess on 15:31, 18 June 21
From what I observed with the French Amstrad community: when something gets important enough, people tend to use English.
Fair enough, but that still seems to be excluding non-french people from taking part in the process *before* something gets important enough to be of public interest. To me, that is the definition of a (country or language limited) sub-scene ..
Quote from: norecess on 15:31, 18 June 21
There is a reason for that: I can definitively state that I would be quite sad (culturally-speaking) to live in a world where only English would be the norm.
Yes, sure, and no one ever requested that either. Nor would that be even visible at the horizon if the regional scenes tried to resist their temptation to keep going the same paths they have been going for the last 30 years. But change is hard, I get that.
.. but hey, maybe I am completely mistaken and the same language-bases segregation holds true for the C64 scene in e.g. Denmark, Italy or Germany.
Quote from: BSC on 19:00, 21 June 21Fair enough, but that still seems to be excluding non-french people from taking part in the process *before* something gets important enough to be of public interest. To me, that is the definition of a (country or language limited) sub-scene..
Are you speaking about 10 years of cpcwiki german topics? Or about the Revision demo party, when most of the peoples are speaking german, while you don't start to speak english with them? Well... When I go to a spanish Forum/Discord/Telegram, I try to communicate in spanish and usually peoples start to answer in english too. I don't see the problem, I do not said they are a sub-scene because they are mostly speaking their native language.
With Google translate, this is becoming less of a problem. It can even increases quality. A good document in Spanish, French or German is sometimes better understandable when Google translates it, than if the author does.
Agreed, it's a bit sad that I do not understand everything that is posted on a Spanish or French site, but then I can use Google translate for it. Or learn the language if it's really important to me. I am still not sure, if I dig into Spanish or French again. But first Assembler ;-)
It's actually a bit sad, that besides the French and Spanish community, there is not much left on a national level... Especially that the German community is pretty much dead. These "national" communities bring in a nice variety. Like in the 80s, when Speccy ports came from the UK and many special and great (real) CPC games originated in France or Spain.
Quote from: eto on 19:30, 21 June 21
With Google translate, this is becoming less of a problem. It can even increases quality. A good document in Spanish, French or German is sometimes better understandable when Google translates it, than if the author does.
Therefore native speakers should do the translation. Or at least read over it.
As soon as you have a translation done by a native speaker, google just suxx bit time. Lot's of (CPC) terms / sentences are still a problem for this primitive form of specialised AI. Especially in demo scene.
BTW: I still wait for a link to one of these great c64 demos. One which fulfills all the requests made for a CPC demo.
Quote from: TotO on 19:18, 21 June 21
Are you speaking about 10 years of cpcwiki german topics?
Nope.
Quote from: TotO on 19:18, 21 June 21
Or about the Revision demo party, when most of the peoples are speaking german, while you don't start to speak english with them?
Nope.
When I go to a spanish forum, I am basically lost, because - guess what: I don't speak no spanish!
Quote from: Targhan on 11:27, 18 June 21
@BSC (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=480) Je suis vraiment d'accord avec toi.
Since my French is very rusty unfortunately (mais j'ais appris en ecole), a machine helped to translate the sentence: Deepl.com (https://www.deepl.com/translator#fr/de/Je%20suis%20vraiment%20d'accord%20avec%20toi.), resulting in:
QuoteIch stimme Ihnen wirklich zu.