CPC Scene, "what have you been doing"

[steve]

The Batman Forever Group said " you (CPC Scene) have the worst demos", clearly a challenge.

So are there any demo writers out there who are up to the challenge?

Here is a suggestion, could you write something like this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-a85ZbuTxM

[Optimus]

This seems like an animation and a good idea for an OpenGL demo on a PC. I remember an Nvidia demo with balls and machines playing music or something like that.


As for the challenge I guess there are people who will try to do much better than their previous effort now. It will just take some time.

[MacDeath]

Doing this on CPC ?

Well, not sure this can be done in "real" 3D...Yet a clever tiles and sprites job may get something like this, minus the rotating camera view.

Personnaly I would more be into some Kraftwerk stuff...


Get the Maaaan Machineeeee samples... in DMA channels.

[steve]

I remember an Nvidia demo with balls and machines playing music or something like that.

Yes, that one is also on youtube, but I figured it would not be possible not even on a plus.

[steve]

Doing this on CPC ?

Well, not sure this can be done in "real" 3D...Yet a clever tiles and sprites job may get something like this, minus the rotating camera view.

Personnaly I would more be into some Kraftwerk stuff...


Get the Maaaan Machineeeee samples... in DMA channels.

Yes, it might be possible, there is not much movement if you do not have a moving camera, so multiplexing hardware sprites should be sufficient to handle what movement there is, while DMA handles the sound, if you were to put the demo in a 512KB cartridge, then you might be able to load screen data fast enough to have the rotating camera view as well.

I don't mean make an exact copy, just something like it, a bit of animation matched to some copyright-free music.

If there is time available, use mode 2 graphics with pallette changes every line or 6, I don't know which because I am not a programmer.

To be fair to the demo programmers, I think they were writing for the CPC whilst the BF demo was written for the plus.

[norecess]

Steve, you seem to have a good starting point. I just can't wait seeing YOUR answer to Batman Group!

[MacDeath]

But your Demo would be not a lot more than a simple movie player...

I mean the Batman Demo also have realtime stuffs...

If there is time available, use mode 2 graphics with pallette changes every line or 6, I don't know which because I am not a programmer.

To be fair to the demo programmers, I think they were writing for the CPC whilst the BF demo was written for the plus.

Mode2 + shittons of rasters ?

erk... you are still limited to 2 colours per scanline, which is actually very... small...

Ok you may get the Batman's "true colours" part quite a bit more impressive on PLUS due to Hardware rasters and 4096 palette...


Anyway Demo is not only about running some video.
To get some stuff calculated enable something that don't need 5 disks...

And a Demo on PLUS cartridge is not really practicle... until some decent solution become widely available (and cheap).


Also i told about Kraftwerk... I was thinking something like that :

http://youtu.be/mDH-Ocs-Dj4

[steve]

Steve, you seem to have a good starting point. I just can't wait seeing YOUR answer to Batman Group!

If you can wait for me to learn programming, then I will certainly give it a try.

[steve]

But your Demo would be not a lot more than a simple movie player...

I agree, it must calculate in real-time, not just be a simple animation player

Mode2 + shittons of rasters ?

erk... you are still limited to 2 colours per scanline, which is actually very... small...

Ok you may get the Batman's "true colours" part quite a bit more impressive on PLUS due to Hardware rasters and 4096 palette...

You are probably right, so let's make it mode 1

Anyway Demo is not only about running some video.
To get some stuff calculated enable something that don't need 5 disks...

And a Demo on PLUS cartridge is not really practicle... until some decent solution become widely available (and cheap).

True, we don't want a simple video player, the cartridge idea was simply a possibilty if programmable cartridges become available, if not we will need 512k ram to play it and load it from SD card.

Also i told about Kraftwerk... I was thinking something like that :

http://youtu.be/mDH-Ocs-Dj4

I like kraftwerk as well, but their lawyers may have severe punishments in mind for anyone who violates their copyrights.

[steve]

On reflection, I think it is unreasonable to expect the 4Mhz Z80 to calculate much in real-time, these animations are created by very powerful computers so the best we can hope for is that the Z80 can display the animation in real-time from pre-calculated data, Although just to prove it is more than a simple "movie player", I do hope to make the demo interactive in some way so that the performance changes in response to the actions or input of the viewer.

[MacDeath]

I like kraftwerk as well, but their lawyers may have severe punishments in mind for anyone who violates their copyrights.

Come on, Demo on CPC/PLUS are freewares... I don't think they would sue anyone for that.

Just need to ask their kind permission.

[steve]

I was wondering whether my demo should use add-ons like the drum machine and digiblaster?, or a demo running on two cpc's for 6 channel sound?

[arnoldemu]

I was wondering whether my demo should use add-ons like the drum machine and digiblaster?, or a demo running on two cpc's for 6 channel sound?

Well a lot of people don't have a drum machine.
More people have digiblaster.

But, it can be said that if it doesn't run on a stock (no extra hardware) cpc6128 or 6128+ then it's not a real cpc/+ demo.
Then it's more "wild" category, or more "enhanced".

Otherwise, we could do all kinds of crazy mods just to get the power to make the demo run...

so keep it cpc6128 or 6128+

Now you know why code has to be so good

[MacDeath]

There is a homemade plan to get a second AY...

It's in a book on "making your own extension for your CPC464"...

I was seeing for this with my Arduino...(it can emulate a SID, so an AY may not be that difficult)

Don't remember where to find this book but I downloaded it.

http://cpcrulez.fr/book_micro_application-11_montages_extensions.htm
http://www.phenixinformatique.com/modules/TDMDownloads/singlefile.php?com_mode=flat&com_order=1&lid=47&cid=2

this one I think...

18. Générateur de sons

This one actually permit the addition of a second AY on the extention port.
This was more a good excuse to include some stuff about the actual CPC's AY PSG... yet having it twice is not that bad too...


Anyway, Demos with peripheral are somewhat silly... because more than often too few poeple may have them.

Those are to be optionnal support, managed like PC softwares, from the time you could have between 4-5 video settings (Hercules, CGA, EGA, VGA and custom like Tandy or Amstrad PC1512) and 3-4 different sound settings (Beeper, Soundblaster, Ad-Lib and so on).


The same may be done on CPC...
Then you Demo would be on 2 Disk or a well full 720K 3"1/2 disk perhaps...

So yeah... perhaps 2-3 Sound extension may be accounted (Digivocal ? Digidrum ? additionnal AY ?) and so on...
A sweet way may be to actually use Arduinos or equivalent : reprogrammable CPC-Friendly card... (in 5V ?).

Just give what needed to code it into what you need and some explanation on the way to connect it to the CPC or extras (Sound output for an AY emulation).


That's quite a lot of additionnal job.

[norecess]

As a summary of this thread, we have :


1) 1 guy who gives lessons about good demos, but eventually plan learning how to program (without getting a clue about the under-the-hood thing)
2) 1 guy speculating about hypothetical hardware stuff to enhance demos...


Hmm. What have you been doing..? is really, really self-explicit.

[Gryzor]

Hahaha! Yes, navel-gazing is easier than making a demo. This includes me, too. But you have to consider, each gives what they can...

[steve]

I find it sad that some people think others have no right to even discuss demos unless they have written some themselves, this began as an attempt to start a debate on the future evolution of demos, but instead of contributing to the debate one person felt the need to be aggressive and offensive to me.
Not what I expect to see on a forum that regards itself as "friendly".
No recess, if you have nothing to contribute to the debate then your posts are a waste of my and everybody else's time.

[Gryzor]

Whoa guys, calm down. I don't thin norecess meant to be offensive, though I do see that pointing fingers at two persons is a bit off. It'd be stupid to cease discussion because we just can't do it...

[MacDeath]

1) 1 guy who gives lessons about good demos, but eventually plan learning how to program (without getting a clue about the under-the-hood thing)
2) 1 guy speculating about hypothetical hardware stuff to enhance demos...

But I did both...

[Gryzor]

We're all guilty!

[Optimus]

Norecess was just joking or being ironic.


I was wondering about another thing since the first time I have seen BF. How will it affect the CPC scene?


I want to believe, and actually it is the most possible, that it will have a positive effect.
I was scared for a while that sceners would be more precautious before releasing stuff, which is good for quality things, but would make the demo releases more sparse when they already are rare.


In my case, it made me want to spent more time with what I do from now on, which would also mean avoid releasing mediocre or unfinished stuff. Recently I had the strategy to release stuff at demoparties or competitions no matter what, if I can't make a big demo in time then make a little 1k, because I thought it was good for the scene to see something even if it's not the best thing. Though, an 1k intro without music and just a single effect seems to be unnoticed. I sometimes think of changing my strategy to not release something except if it's more polished than my past attempts. There were two or three times I was planning something but aborted it the very last time because there is no meaning to release something not so good. At least, I have been busy, writting some code, so the next time it could be better.


I think the well known groups on CPC have this policy, never release something unless it's quality. Well, I know enough CPC demo which were not BF, but were quality. And then there are the smaller groups and people which release something even if it's not the best. I am not very proud with my last attempts, at least I was active, but I am wondering which way to go. Maybe it will mean more time since I release a demo again, maybe I'll change my mind the very last moment and do something small. I don't know.


But still, I believe BF changed me for the positive. Makes me think of taking care the little details that can be fixed to make things look better, also teaches me what is really possible on the CPC.

[arnoldemu]

My feeling is that if you don't release it until it's polished then it could take a long time (experience tells me this also).

I would also like to see new releases quite regularly, and for people who are starting to code, simple old school demo effects are fine I think.

I think to make big productions with lots of transitions and all put together well takes a long time, sometimes a new picture release, or a new music, or a single screen effect are good.

@Optimus: I feel sad that your 1K demos do not seem to get noticed. I would say that I look at all, but I don't often comment.

EDIT: Perhaps if we had a published way that people could show off their pictures or musics they could use this and build upon it... but we could see new gfx, music and effects comming more quickly.

[Bryce]

I don't program demos at all, but a project is a project and I tend to agree with Optimus. When I'm developing hardware, it's very easy to get impatient and think "Let's just release it now as it is", but I usually manage to hold myself back and don't release anything until I'm happy with the work I've done. It's better to be known for a few good projects, than for lots of mediocre attempts.

Bryce.

[arnoldemu]

I don't program demos at all, but a project is a project and I tend to agree with Optimus. When I'm developing hardware, it's very easy to get impatient and think "Let's just release it now as it is", but I usually manage to hold myself back and don't release anything until I'm happy with the work I've done. It's better to be known for a few good projects, than for lots of mediocre attempts.

Bryce.

I agree with you in part, but for those who are learning, nothing is wrong with releasing smaller demos that show just a single effect, because it's all about learning... or... ?

[Bryce]

Of course, I was more referring to major projects being released "unfinished" or buggy. Obviously when you are starting out you should start small and grow with experience.

Bryce.