Is it important for you that a demo runs on all CRTC types?

[Optimus]

I think the most popular selection from the poll was missing. If you ask many sceners about this, the most popular opinion is"It should run at least on the most standard CRTCs like 1,2 and 4(plus)". But the poll either had "It has to run in ALL crtc regardless" or "It must run only in my CRTC, because all the other suck".

[Devilmarkus]

I think the most popular selection from the poll was missing. If you ask many sceners about this, the most popular opinion is"It should run at least on the most standard CRTCs like 1,2 and 4(plus)". But the poll either had "It has to run in ALL crtc regardless" or "It must run only in my CRTC, because all the other suck".

Do you think this would change the result?

[Optimus]

Do you think this would change the result?

Maybe not. I voted for ALL while having this in mind.

[Devilmarkus]

One option 'could' be that a demo should support all CRTC types, but has 1 or 2 effects less on a different CRTC than it has been optimized for.
But I also think this could be the point "All..."

[Optimus]

I guess coding only software rendering effects has one advantage. I never worried about my code not running on a CRTC I don't have. However, if my next demo uses the CRTC heavilly, I think an emulator would be a bliss for coders not having the real machine. At least if your effects work the same as in the real thing, but Winape32 has 99% compatibility I think. So far I have bought three CPCs hoping for a CRTC 0 (you can't know before you test it) to only get CRTC 1. At least I can run From Sratch.

[Devilmarkus]

Winape32 has 99% compatibility I think. So far I have bought three CPCs hoping for a CRTC 0 (you can't know before you test it) to only get CRTC 1. At least I can run From Sratch.

Sure, when you remind, that 2 effects in "From Scratch" are not working in WinApe.
(1 is not even visible, the 2nd is broken)

And this is a thing, you will not only find in WinApe but in all emulators.
An Emulator is not able to be 99% perfect.

[Optimus]

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Nyancat was ported on several 8bits )
Who is for a CPC version? (don't ask me

[Optimus]

Sure, when you remind, that 2 effects in "From Scratch" are not working in WinApe.
(1 is not even visible, the 2nd is broken)

And this is a thing, you will not only find in WinApe but in all emulators.
An Emulator is not able to be 99% perfect.

You mean 100% perfect



Well, I forgot that about From Scratch. But Batman Forever works well. Since I am not going to code the most obscure CRTC tricks at the moment, emulators are still fine for the most standard stuff when you don't have the machine with different CRTC for testing.

[Devilmarkus]

Well, I meant 99% But who cares about 1%?
One other thing are rasters in emulators.
WinApe changes them 8 pixels too early, JavaCPC 8 pixels too late, Others don't even know, what rasters are...
Really I coded around 3-4 days just to find out how the rasters could be shown properly.
(Talking about "Bloc-Us")
But I have no solution...

[Devilmarkus]

I made a few screenshots for the demo "Bloc us"
The rasters are all in-accurate.
But compare yourself:
Caprice 32:

Spoiler: ShowHide

CPCBox:

Spoiler: ShowHide

CPCe95:

Spoiler: ShowHide

JavaCPC:

Spoiler: ShowHide

JEMU (Current compiled sources):

Spoiler: ShowHide

PC-CPC:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Caprice reloaded (R_415, the latest does not work on my system because a .dll is missing):

Spoiler: ShowHide

WinApe:

Spoiler: ShowHide

WinCPC:

Spoiler: ShowHide

[voXfReaX]

I made a few screenshots for the demo "Bloc us"
The rasters are all in-accurate.
But compare yourself:
Caprice 32:

Spoiler: ShowHide

CPCBox:

Spoiler: ShowHide

CPCe95:

Spoiler: ShowHide

JavaCPC:

Spoiler: ShowHide

JEMU (Current compiled sources):

Spoiler: ShowHide

PC-CPC:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Caprice reloaded (R_415, the latest does not work on my system because a .dll is missing):

Spoiler: ShowHide

WinApe:

Spoiler: ShowHide

WinCPC:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Unfortunately, the thing with the splitrasters' timings exists in every demo which runs under an emulator...

Bloc us is one example, another one is From scratch (vanity logo), and I am sure there are many more

[Devilmarkus]

Sure but here you can see the raster zones better...

[Devilmarkus]

For the demo "From Scratch" I am using a very dirty routine to show the rasters @ exact accurate positions:

(Deinterlaced screenshot)

I will not tell you how my trick works, but this is exactly the same result I get on my real CPC 6128.

[voXfReaX]

For the demo "From Scratch" I am using a very dirty routine to show the rasters @ exact accurate positions:

(Deinterlaced screenshot)

I will not tell you how my trick works, but this is exactly the same result I get on my real CPC 6128.

OK, good; but it's a 'special patch' in order from scratch rasters to be shown correctly...
Normally your emu will not be able to do the job... And i am not underestimating your work (which is respectful btw), I am just pointing out this rasters'-timing-problem.

[MaV]

I will not tell you how my trick works, but this is exactly the same result I get on my real CPC 6128.

Please! Pretty Please! Please, please, please!

Please!
Please!
Please!
Please!
Please!
Please!
Please!

Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please!

[Devilmarkus]

OK, good; but it's a 'special patch' in order from scratch rasters to be shown correctly...
Normally your emu will not be able to do the job... And i am not underestimating your work (which is respectful btw), I am just pointing out this rasters'-timing-problem.

Yeah I know
But, until it's still impossible for me (and of course also for other emu coders who surely am working on the same problem: Syncing GateArray, Z80 and CPC) I use dirty tricks

[Devilmarkus]

Please! Pretty Please! Please, please, please!

Please!
Please!
Please!
Please!
Please!
Please!
Please!

Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please! Please!

No

[MaV]

No

[Phi2x]

.

[MaV]

On a more serious note:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/08/accuracy-takes-power-one-mans-3ghz-quest-to-build-a-perfect-snes-emulator.ars

This article explains partly the problems with SNES-Emulation. Markus' hack reminds me of those emulators which try to patch the emu for one game, and because of that break them for the next. In the end, the code turns into a total mess.

However, his ideas are quite extremist, as he'd like to emulate the chip even at transistor level with correct propagation delay. Nice thought, but not executable, IMO.

[Bryce]

The only "real" solution is real hardware... Can't beat it

Bryce.

[Devilmarkus]

The 2 pixels are also missing on my 6128. But due to monitor weakness its hard to spot them out.

[tastefulmrship]

The thing is, some of us are still looking for real hardware... *grrr*
But then, you've got the 'fun' of transferring everything from PC to CPC. If you've got a 3.5" drive in your CPC, great! But PC to 3" doesn't sound fun to me! (I haven't tried it, obviously, but...)

This is why emulators are so common to lamers and demo-watchers, rather than purists and coders.
We know that it's almost impossible to emulate hardware 100% correctly, and that's why we don't complain if a demo/game fails to work exactly as the coder intended (eg, the few incorrect coloured-pixels in the BLOC US raster). We accept that as an emulator 'characteristic' and ignorantly assume it works perfectly on real hardware... and then move on.

[Phi2x]

.

[Devilmarkus]

Sorry, your eminence...
My eyes are blurred.