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Offline Bryce

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #325 on: 11:57, 31 August 11 »
I swore I wasn't going to join this thread, but I will:

@Phi2x:
First of all, whether you release the code or not is completely up to you. Don't let other people put you under pressure, and don't take too seriously what other people say about you or your work (here or anywhere else). With hardware it's very similar situation, some people (like me) release their entire plans, schematics and layouts and some prefer to keep it all a secret. I believe that "Copying  is the highest form of compliment", so I don't mind if people use my stuff to come up with better/other hardware. The fact that they needed to copy it, means they think it's really good, but weren't able to do it themselves. It also improves the quality of hardware/software available for our obsolete dis-continued but much loved 8-Bit machines. If you are worried that your work will be claimed by others as their own work, then you just have to make it MORE public, by releasing a technical description in the Wiki and calling it something like "Phi2x Rastering" or "Phi2x Rastering Method", that way, no matter who copies it, it will always be seen as your achievement and referred to as such.
Much the same happened with the ACID crack last year. Nocash cracked the ACID, he could have kept it for himself, but he released the information although he hadn't yet created the hardware (and still hasn't), so even if I released hardware that required just one transistor and a diode to replace the ACID, it would still be thanks to nocashs information and acknowledged accordingly.
It's all a matter of view point of course. I'd prefer to be seen as the person who improved EVERY emulator rather than the person who wrote one of many emulators. But that's just me, you might see it completely differently.

Just my two cents.

Bryce.
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Offline PhilZeVibe

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #326 on: 12:34, 31 August 11 »
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« Last Edit: 17:14, 30 June 21 by PhilZeVibe »
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Offline redbox

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #327 on: 12:40, 31 August 11 »
I looked at JavaCPC sourcecode. Well, that code is a complete mess of doing demo detection and patching.


At least he's not so insecure that he won't let you look at it.  You only know this because Devilmarkus is sharing, and I applaud him for that.


Retro communities only survive through sharing, and this whole wiki/forum/community is based upon that ideal.
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Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #328 on: 13:34, 31 August 11 »
I looked at JavaCPC sourcecode. Well, that code is a complete mess of doing demo detection and patching.
I saw things like: if (from scratch is detected) then tweak some timings; if (camembert4 is detected) then poke memory; etc...
Yep, there is really stuff like that in JavaCPC!

I'm very sorry for DevilMarkus, but it's up to him to clean that mess. All the necessary information is available on the web. I certainly won't code his emulator for him.

Even if I use code like this, it's not your turn to moan around here like a stupid.
I never said that JavaCPC uses a clean code like CPCBox.
I'm not god, and I don't behave like him.
And I never said that I know about emulating things.
As you perhaps have seen, I am using the emulation core from JEMU and this emulator is very restricted in it's features.
Sure, I did also many improvements, but also I am doing a few patches to make some things work.
If you don't like this, printout my sources on soft paper, and clean your ...... with it.

YOU can be very proud of yourself... Why don't you marry you?
« Last Edit: 13:38, 31 August 11 by DevilmarkusĀ© »
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Offline robcfg

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #329 on: 13:45, 31 August 11 »
Ahem, maybe this is going a bit too far.


The thing is if phi2x would have said at the beginning of the topic that he's not sharing his sources because it is a clean emulation, and maybe pointed to some useful info, this ugly discussion wouldn't be taking place.


Also, the point in sharing is that no one is born knowing everything, and emulation is a tricky subject, so knowing how phi2x organized his code, may help people understand a better way to do things and improve. Of course, he's in his right not to do so, and that's the end of it.


I suggest moving on...
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Offline McKlain

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #330 on: 13:56, 31 August 11 »
Yup, I'm unsuscribing from the topic.
« Last Edit: 16:38, 31 August 11 by McKlain »
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Offline TFM

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #331 on: 18:11, 31 August 11 »
Would you prefer... discontinued?  ;D
Well, sadly it really doesn't matter what I want...  :(  But... since you ask.... let's say... a genious system, that is temprary not available in the shelfs  ;)  And to make a kind of shake hands... well, if you like you can use that sentence also for other 4/8/16/21/27 Bit systems (Some PDP had 21 and 27 bit CPUs).
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Offline steve

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #332 on: 18:18, 31 August 11 »
Don't forget the PDP-8 which had a 12-bit CPU :)
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Offline TFM

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #333 on: 18:20, 31 August 11 »
... I don't see that much open-source demos, much less of great demos.
But I do. OdieSoft and Prodatron for example. They released a lot of source codes of thier demos and in OdieSofts case also a lot of sources for games. Just take a look outside your borders.
But I agree with BF, it's source would mainly show how to play movies. The result is a nice demo though.
 
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Offline TFM

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #334 on: 18:30, 31 August 11 »
Don't forget the PDP-8 which had a 12-bit CPU :)
Right, I forgot that... it's soooo long ago. But I always liked the "divine" numbers of bits.
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #335 on: 20:15, 31 August 11 »
Wow, lots of replies,the fun continues! Let's see...

@phi2x: how on EARTH using the emulator in another project would mean "throwing you out of control of your ownership on CPCBox" is beyond me - and, I suspect, anyone else's with a modicum of common sense. Or you're meaning to say that all the authors other emulators (and not only for the CPC) that are used in a myriad of third-party projects have lost "control" and "ownership"? If nothing else, those third-party projects have raised the emulators' popularity and awareness. Boy, you should probably work for RIAA or something, I hear they're good at distorting reality and sense.
   
If you didn't understand the video then, well, nevermind, obviously you have no feeling of sharing. But one wonders, why on earth would you release your emulator for free after all?

And even though I didn't mention open source myself, you actually respond as if I did. Of course, with open source the advantage is PRECISELY that people can build on others' work and produce something even better, that's the magic. Noone's losing their copyright or credit, but the end result is very positive for the common good, especially in a closely-knit community as ours. If you can't feel that, well, each to his own.
   
*competitors*? For the love of god... I don't have enough facepalm gif's to express my reaction...

Oh! Oh! I got an idea! Let's prohibit linking to the wiki, or using the knowledge that is there, to prevent 'competitors' from doing things with OUR material!
   
The diploma analogy is ridiculous, to say the least. A much, much more appropriate analogy would be this: imagine you got your engineering diploma and made a discovery that could help the entire society if it got open and free. Maybe a pysics law or something. Now imagine keeping it for yourself; not much future for science I suspect... As Robcfg pointed out, I really doubt you came up with the emulator without sourcing freely available material. The fact that those people made their knowledge available, and that you used it, merely proves that this model actually works. Taking freely available knowledge and others' efforts and using it to built something closed is nothing short of hypocritical.

Also, going open source does not prevent competition - of course. It only promotes it...

But, anyway, once more: it was YOU who brought up the open source thing, I merely asked about using the emulator in other projects which is, of course, a totally different issue. This is precisely why I didn't reply to your open source bullshit -because it was just an effort from your part to shift the issue. NOT so clever.

The fact that the demoscene does not agree with me doesn't prove much. I do understand the competitive spirit of the demo scene, but this doesn't mean that we wouldn't be enjoying more and better demos if the knowledge was public. Ahhh see what I did there? It's called "logic".

Claiming that open source =/IP is totally stupid and a load of crap. This has been done to death over the years - you obviously don't understand the concept of IP.

And how the (c) symbol has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with using the emulator in other project is, again, beyond me and logic. Its quite obvious you don't understand the most basic things behind copyright, creativity and IP. Or you didn't know that everything (EVERYTHING) on the wiki or elsewhere is copyrighted? What's more, under our license, typically what you create using knowledge found herein MUST follow the same license.
   
...and then you attack Marku's emulator... as if this proves anything AT ALL? Yes, patching is a bad emulator practice... so what??? Man, you're all over the place...

@Mav: no, noone talked about going open-source but Phi2x himself. All I asked was why he wouldn't allow the emulator to be used elsewhere.

@Bryce: you hit it right on the head; it was actually what I was thinking - instead of staying in "history" as the author of a great technique that helped moving emulators forward he'll just be that Scrooge who made something, somewhere and was afraid of everyone else.
« Last Edit: 20:17, 31 August 11 by Gryzor »
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Offline PhilZeVibe

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #336 on: 01:09, 01 September 11 »
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« Last Edit: 17:14, 30 June 21 by PhilZeVibe »
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Offline robcfg

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #337 on: 01:24, 01 September 11 »
Quote from: phi2x
That's your opinion. And I don't care about it.


At this point, I'd close the thread, but being CPCBox's thread and not an IP discussion thread, I'd move the messages to another thread and close it.


It makes no sense to continue talking about it.
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Offline Bryce

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #338 on: 01:31, 01 September 11 »
It's a never ending discussion, because somewhere along the way the words "truth" and "lies" have been mistakenly used to describe what are in fact opinions, and opinions tend to differ and be very difficult to change.

Bryce.
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Offline TFM

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #339 on: 06:43, 01 September 11 »
Well, let everybody decide for own projects and it's good that way. Any contribution to the scene - in which way ever - is appreciated  ;)
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #340 on: 08:24, 01 September 11 »
Watch it, mate; first you called me dishonest, then I was a mothership, now I've got a sneaky tongue? I'm getting really annoyed, not because of your opinions of course, but because of your conduct in here. Watch it. Obviously, you have some serious issues to turn this into a personal matter, but please take it elsewhere.

-IP as a first step... yadda-yadda... yeah, but guess what - you're not replying to my own point. As a matter of fact you're 100% off-topic.

-Obfuscated logic...?? Well, sorry if you can't understand it. I (obviously) keep my logic close-sourced so noone else can use it.

-Third point is, once more, not replying to my *very initial* point. You have an appetite for going off on a tangent, don't you?

-That's your emulator. And obviously not many people will be caring about it in the end :D

-Who the heck ordered you? You are really, really seeing ghosts everywhere. Go re-read the thread, might do you some good.

-I've got obsessions about money? :D :D :D Oh, wait, I see what's going on, you probably had a beer too many...

-My opinion is based, conveniently, on thousands of years of human experience and evolution. Yours, on the other fact, is based on "I don't think so".

-Of course I mentioned commercial apps as an example of needing strong protection, where on earth you would find a "malicious semantic shift" (????!!) is a wonder. Here I recognised some merit in the whole IP crap and you kicked it away :D

Gather yourself, mate. Maybe writing late at night doesn't agree with you, but regardless of the hour you're obviously a small, pitiful person with lots of issues you're trying to unload unto others.

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Offline Gryzor

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #341 on: 08:25, 01 September 11 »
Well, let everybody decide for own projects and it's good that way. Any contribution to the scene - in which way ever - is appreciated  ;)

Of course it is. What's more, it's a dev's own right to go as they please. But this does not preclude others from discussing such opinions and choices, nor does it give a right to be offensive.
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Offline PhilZeVibe

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #342 on: 12:28, 11 September 11 »
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« Last Edit: 17:14, 30 June 21 by PhilZeVibe »
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Offline PhilZeVibe

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #343 on: 13:48, 30 September 11 »
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« Last Edit: 17:14, 30 June 21 by PhilZeVibe »
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Offline robcfg

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #344 on: 14:13, 30 September 11 »
Yep, the interface is really good and the execution too.


Oh, and the name is fantastic  ;D
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #345 on: 08:00, 03 October 11 »
I don't find it so fantastic; sure, it's very nice, but it's not like we haven't seen such things on the Webs before...
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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #346 on: 14:28, 05 October 11 »
This is very nice. I especially like the fact the user interface is not intrusive (the clicks in left/right borders to display menu is well designed).


I wonder who will be the first to propose a full-featured, web-based development suite like Bespin (http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/02/ide-in-the-cloud-mozilla-labs-browser-based-ide-prototype.ars) adapted for Retro (or CPC) development (including an emulator).


Yes, it would be CPU-intensive but still - we all know this is the future, right? :)
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Offline PhilZeVibe

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #347 on: 12:06, 16 October 11 »
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« Last Edit: 17:14, 30 June 21 by PhilZeVibe »
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Offline PhilZeVibe

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #348 on: 13:37, 23 October 11 »
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« Last Edit: 17:14, 30 June 21 by PhilZeVibe »
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Offline PhilZeVibe

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Re: CPCBox, your CPC emulator in Javascript
« Reply #349 on: 00:15, 28 October 11 »
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« Last Edit: 17:14, 30 June 21 by PhilZeVibe »
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