Amstrad Prince of Persia Screenshots?

[STE86]

@Sigh,

the sprites on a c64 version will have to be limited to multicolour non overlayed ones so it will never look as well shaded as the amstrad version. there are simply not enough sprites on the c64 to cope with the enemies with swords and the main character in close proximity, bearing in mind that the main character can initiate any move he wants at any time.

the sprites numbers would have to be dynamic, on roving rasters to enable the sprite to go from 1 sprite wide and 3 high when standing or jumping straight up to being 3 across and 2 high whilst in the widest frame of his running jump.

while fighting the characters would be 2x2 sprites each with another 1 each for the sword blade.

@arnoldemu
thanks for that info, it is an interesting insight into how the amstrad one works. anything else u come across please post.
I can tell you that PoP uses the "painters algorithm" to draw its tiles from bottom left to top right of the screen. that way the titles naturally mask over each other in the direction of the isometric as it draws.

Steve

[sigh]

@Sigh,

the sprites on a c64 version will have to be limited to multicolour non overlayed ones so it will never look as well shaded as the amstrad version. there are simply not enough sprites on the c64 to cope with the enemies with swords and the main character in close proximity, bearing in mind that the main character can initiate any move he wants at any time.

the sprites numbers would have to be dynamic, on roving rasters to enable the sprite to go from 1 sprite wide and 3 high when standing or jumping straight up to being 3 across and 2 high whilst in the widest frame of his running jump.

while fighting the characters would be 2x2 sprites each with another 1 each for the sword blade.

I see. You could always use a software sprite for the enemies, as they have a very limited moves set. There is only 1 enemy on screen at a time though out the whole game if I remember.

[STE86]

sadly not. to software sprite on the c64 would require any sw sprite to be the same 4 colour set as the background graphics. which would totally defeat the objective.

sw sprites on the c64 are only effective as bullets in 8x8 blocks or on the rare occasion that they are used in complex graphics like one of the players in IK+ they all occur over background colour thereby negating any attribute clash problems.

Steve

[sigh]

But you could have just the sword as a software sprite? This would save on a few hardware sprites enough for animating both the enemy and player or is that still not possible?

Here's a link to "Games That Never Were C64" with info on Prince of Persia for C64(just scroll down):

http://www.gtw64.co.uk/archive.php?page=%204&letter=P

[STE86]

yes i suppose the sword could be a sw sprite but it just adds to the already complex animation and offset sprite placement sequence just to get 1 more colour "sometimes" in the main sprite. I say sometimes because there will, on some frames still not be enough sprites to completely cover and add colour to all areas of the main sprite.

additionally, this game is already far from assured of fitting in 64k without adding more sprite data

transient multiloads have to be kept to a minimum on the c64 because of its agonisingly slow disk.

I am aware of that PoP version. it is however simply a set of homebrew screens with no sprites ever done afaik and as such is pretty useless.

There is currently another c64 PoP (running) conversion in the works, also using my sprite data but will defeinitely not fit into 64k and is based around a cartridge format.

I would like to do one in 64k as a disk based system because to me as an oldschool game developer, if it doesnt run on stock hardware then you may as well run it on a PC.

Steve

[sigh]

Fair enough.

There is currently another c64 PoP (running) conversion in the works, also using my sprite data but will defeinitely not fit into 64k and is based around a cartridge format.

How are they getting around the sprite problem? I'm quite surprised with the conversion problems for the C64 unless you make the sprite fit into the 24x21 dimensions, where it would be rather tiny!

[Gryzor]

Yes, all greeks I know have blond hairs and blue eyes

Well, maybe you're a tad ignorant about history, who knows...

[STE86]

there is no "sprite problem" assuming that u use none-overlayed sprites which basically limits them to 3 colours and transparent so they are less colourful than the amstrad ones but still work as most of the hero character is white and pink anyway.

the sprite data would be drawn into matrices of hardware sprites so the matrix for some frames would be:

1
2
3

if he was standing

12
34

in a fight stance (plus sword)

or

12
345

if he was in a flying leap to the right. etc.

Steve

[Gryzor]

Ste, have you tried any mock-ups yet?

[EgoTrip]

I didnt even know this existed for the CPC until this thread was posted. It looks incredible. I watched the long play video, wow. I'm going to be giving this a go for sure.

[sigh]

there is no "sprite problem" assuming that u use none-overlayed sprites which basically limits them to 3 colours and transparent so they are less colourful than the amstrad ones but still work as most of the hero character is white and pink anyway.

the sprite data would be drawn into matrices of hardware sprites so the matrix for some frames would be:

1
2
3

if he was standing

12
34

in a fight stance (plus sword)

or

12
345

if he was in a flying leap to the right. etc.

Steve

Ahhh okay I think I understand now when you mentioned the 2x2 sprite (24x21) so it would be a 48x42 sprite? (Man..I'm rubbish at this!!! I'll understand more when I see the mock up ).

I really hope you get this working on the C64/128/Cartridge as it should of never have missed out in the first place.

[MiguelSky]

I didnt even know this existed for the CPC until this thread was posted. It looks incredible. I watched the long play video, wow. I'm going to be giving this a go for sure.

That is because you are not tried the CPCGamesCD, there you can browse "all" the games of CPC, sort them in categories, seek with filter and of course, play them

You can download from the link in my sign.

[Gryzor]

That is because you are not tried the CPCGamesCD, there you can browse "all" the games of CPC, sort them in categories, seek with filter and of course, play them

You can download from the link in my sign.

Blatant self-promotion But well worth it!

Yeah, it's a hell of a conversion to be sure... really great!

[MacDeath]

How are they getting around the sprite problem?

As they always do : sprite multiplexing.

http://codebase64.org/doku.php?id=base:sprite_multiplexing

Getting them in large pixel enable 4 colours (3+transparent)
So you may use the same design as CPC version (with perhaps less colours...)

The main problem... sprite are greatly well animated (captain obvious) so they may need quite a good lot of animation frames.
Yet there are not a lot of simultaneous heroes/baddies "sprites" in this game

[STE86]

the sprites are all done and have been for 18 months

they are converted from the PC version of the game into 2:1 pixel ratio. except that the hero now looks down as he takes a careful step forward which the apple one does and the pc one doesnt. (and yes they are less colourful than the amstrad version).

and yes there are 200 odd sprite frames

Steve

[sigh]

Any chance of a preview? 
Will it be cart or 128?

[STE86]

this at the moment is simply all talk, evaluation and graphics.

i have quite a few sprite animation sequences as animated test gifs and alot of currently disjointed and separate background graphic elements. but to go further requires some "real" game coding. not demo writing, but old fashioned high stamina games slog.

And having done this crap professionally 20 years ago, i am only too aware of how few real coders there are now doing homebrew stuff.

but we live in hope

Steve

[MacDeath]

You could always use a software sprite

Sftware sprites ? on a C64 ?

Remember that the C64 is actually not really better than a ZX spectrum concerning Softsprites...
Colour clashes all the way !

yet less severe a on speccy Thx to the 4 colour per attributes mode (160x200)...
Also got to remember that concerning Softsprites, C64 is perhaps even inferior to CPC... it remains a 64K machine with 1mhz CPU...

[sigh]

You can use software sprites as already stated and done by coder TMR:
http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php/topic,1882.msg18985.html#msg18985

You can also use hardware sprites to step in for colour clashes.

[STE86]

MacDeath is essentially correct in this matter.

tho sw sprites are used often on the c64 they are used mainly as bullets in charset mode where cpu usage can be held to a minimum and they can be "blocked" on rather than fully sw sprited on.

as i have said the only major game i can think of offhand to use it for a main character and still keep speed is IK+ where 2 players are sprites and 1 is made from sw. tho to do this any background has to be blank in order for no attribute clash to occur and/or allow the player to be blocked on rather than full sw sprite mask and removal to be required.

International Karate for the A8 also uses this method where it creates both players from sw using its 5 colour mode. examine the c64 and a8 versions on youtube you will see that the c64 sprites for IK cross into the "picture" area whereas the a8 ones are always over flat colour.

MacDeath is also correct that at 1mhz the c64 is not at all suited for sw spriting. examine the vids of Karateka from 1984 where EVERYTHING is sw on all computer versions and see how slow the c64 is compared to the a8 version.

Steve

[MacDeath]

C64 is saved from being a piece of dooky junk by its hardsprites, hardscrolls and SID.

When you want to do something in software... you simply cannot be as good as a CPC IMO.

Despite attributes, the "normal" 160x200x16 mode on CPC is far better than C64's.
No need to worry with clashes and a larger palette choice (not in greys and browns...though)

The same goes with the Mode1 320x200x4... easier to get good looking sprites effects in Soft... yet ok there are less colours on screen.But despites those less colours, you can get stuff more detailed because no limitation per character... = 3 colours for sprites (4th colour as mask) and 4 colours for 8x8 backgrounds tiles...


But ok, CPC is so much heavier on the graphical matter that it needs a 128K config to run "properly" IMO.


Anyway Prince of persia was quite decent on PC Dos in CGA display...
You should aim at this kind of graphics on C64 IMO...

Yet of course the possibility to get more colours on C64...
The part of background where the player can't go ("foreground" bricks/stones...) do not bother with attribute clashes.


Needless to say the sound is to be far better as PC's beeper...lol.

[STE86]

well not wishing to turn this into a vs thread but the hardware sprites, 320 pixel resolution hardware scroll and the best soundchip for over 10 years was what actually made the c64 the games machine of its time, so you can't really isolate them tbh they were a package.

the hardware made it unnecessary in most cases to have to resort to cpu intensive sw methods.

and yes the amstrad was easier to design graphics for, as it was like designing for a low res ST, but to say its better is to ignore the fact that it has no hardware to help out the cpu which also means for many games it simply isn't as good a mode as c64 charset at 2k per screen. even an ST with a 7.9mhz processor couldnt out do a c64 with sw, doing what it was best at, scrolling arcade games.

and i think i can do "bit" better than pc cga using colour ram to make fiery torches and to add extra colour to portcullises, chompers and the background brickwork

Steve

[Xifos]

Hi,

I could be wrong but i thought the first version of prince of persia was done on apple 2.
Which uses a 6502 cpu at 1 mhz, and has not much RAM (48 or 64).
C64 has almost the same cpu, better graphics, better sound (than apple II) and enough hardware sprites for the main character and one guard/ennemy.
You can have a nice version of prince of persia on C64 ! 

Maybe ported from apple 2 ?

[STE86]

according to the apple technical PDF for PoP written by Mechner in '89 then the apple II version is for the E type with 128k ram. of which he lists he uses 127.5k of it.

oh and the apple screens memory is apparently constructed in such a way that its faster to write to under cpu than the equivalent c64 modes. which i can well believe judging by the disparity in speed between the 2 versions of Karateka.

Steve

[mrsid]

Steve,

If you really want to investigate if it's doable with character graphics, then the NES version is the best one to look at. That one has been redone using an 8x8 grid. Looks a bit odd though, and you'll need tons and tons of tiles. Not a problem on the NES.
And then it's a lot of code, even if you have to just reverse engineer and understand it. Maybe better wait until I publish my work (after I'm done).