Hey guys
I've *finally* at last completed Burnin' Rubber and longplay vid recorded (woop)!
Before I record my commentary/review aside from the Plus palette being used really well, has any other notable Plus features been used?
It really looks like 'WEC Le Mans with a lick of paint', but has for example hardware sprites and scrolling been used anywhere? Does that title screen animation use this?
Of course no DMA music/sfx present.
The "B" and the "R" in the title are build of hardware sprites.
The car is also build of hardware sprites. Also when it rotates or crashes.
Also some CPC+ specific interrupts are used I think.
Yep, I think extra colours and the hardware sprites for your car and title screen is pretty much it. The PRI gets used to time mode/palette switches on the title screen I think, though nothing particularly exciting.
Got to remember that Burnin' Rubber was supposed to fill inside a 128K cartridge alongside Locomotive Basic...
Must be 64K max...?
Perhaps a bit more ?
In the title sequence, isn't the scrolling grey stuff using an Hardware scrolling ?
looks quite smooth.
During game, does the background (horizon) use hardscroll too ?
Anyway, there are not that many plus features to begin with (Palette, few sprites, DMAsounds, interrupts and scrolling )
And the game is quite simple, relying massively on palette changes to get the "night/day" effects...
Also as opposed to Wec le Mans, which include some mode change (interrupt ?)...
Burnin'Rubber seems to use only 16 colours if you remove the player's sprite.
So I don't think there are any raster interrupt (gain of CPU compaired to Wec le man ?).
There the question : while it looks like Wec le mans (captain Obvious...) does it uses the Wec engine or perhaps Chase HQ engine instead ?
Probably built from scratches from both engines indeed...
Quote from: MacDeath on 20:23, 24 April 11
Got to remember that Burnin' Rubber was supposed to fill inside a 128K cartridge alongside Locomotive Basic...
Must be 64K max...?
Perhaps a bit more ?
Contrary to what is written almost everywhere on the net, Burnin' Rubber actually uses 64kb + 16kb of the system cartridge, which means it totals 80kb in size.
I found this out when patching the Plus System Cartridge (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Plus_System_Cartridge). Banks 4 to 7 AND bank 2 are for Burnin' Rubber, and I think bank 2 holds graphic data.
Looking forward to the longplay video Xyphoe :)
It's funny that they used mode 1 for the car's shadow.
Quote from: andycadley on 20:01, 24 April 11
Yep, I think extra colours and the hardware sprites for your car and title screen is pretty much it. The PRI gets used to time mode/palette switches on the title screen I think, though nothing particularly exciting.
From memory, it uses DMA sound for the tyre skidding sound effects.
Quote from: mcklain on 22:45, 24 April 11
It's funny that they used mode 1 for the car's shadow.
Well it's not really "mode 1" because it's the HW sprites, but it's a pretty good effect that ensures the shadow looks right even when passing over the lines or edges of the road. It's not quite as convincing on emulators, since the picture is generally sharper than what you got on a plus monitor or tv.
Rasters are used for mode and palette switches on the title and high score screens, but not in game.
Quote from: mahlemiut on 23:18, 24 April 11
From memory, it uses DMA sound for the tyre skidding sound effects.
Really? I'd be quite surprised at that, since it's not particularly needed and I'd have thought the dev would've stuck to what he knew for such a simple effect. You have reminded me that it did make better use of stereo sound than most CPC games though, the noise the cars make as you pass them comes from the appropriate speaker. It's particularly good if you wear headphones to play it.
Quote from: mahlemiut on 23:18, 24 April 11
From memory, it uses DMA sound for the tyre skidding sound effects.
Quote from: andycadley on 23:28, 24 April 11
Really? I'd be quite surprised at that, since it's not particularly needed and I'd have thought the dev would've stuck to what he knew for such a simple effect.
Well I dont *know*, but I've always assumed it does myself, since the tyre skidding sound effect is vastly more convincing than every other sound effect in the game, or the skidding sound effects that were used in WEC Le Mans or Chase HQ...
QuoteIt's funny that they used mode 1 for the car's shadow.
Because this makes a fine dithering = good shadow effect.
Could be even better with "mode2" pixel dimensions but... would also use twice sprites = niet !
(unless they had some spare sprites, but I don't think so...)
why do I feel the wec le mans game has better playability ? its just my opinion the wec le mans seems to have better control than burnin rubber - which i find strange as burnin rubber is a plus game whic in theory has better everything at its disposal - in theory
burnin rubber looks great - the colours, shadow of car flipping, background changing from day to night, the tunnel driving and scroll are great but it feels jerky on the corners and overtaking and only 2 speeds that dont really add much at all to the game.....
Xyphoe did you use the cheats ? its well hard on the time limits is burnin rubber I wouldnt care if you did use the cheats some games need it to stop you getting rsi or swollen wrists or finger cramps....
Played this on my newly acquired plus machine. It doesn't feel as fast as Chase HQ or Supercycle. (Supercycle is the bench mark for me when it comes speed)
I didn't know that the car was built up of hardware sprites.
Thanks for the replies guys!
Quote from: andycadley on 20:01, 24 April 11
Yep, I think extra colours and the hardware sprites for your car and title screen is pretty much it. The PRI gets used to time mode/palette switches on the title screen I think, though nothing particularly exciting.
Sorry, what is "PRI"?
Quote from: mahlemiut on 23:18, 24 April 11
From memory, it uses DMA sound for the tyre skidding sound effects.
Wow ... didn't think about that, can anyone confirm this is the case?
Quote from: cpc4eva on 11:12, 25 April 11
Xyphoe did you use the cheats ? its well hard on the time limits is burnin rubber I wouldnt care if you did use the cheats some games need it to stop you getting rsi or swollen wrists or finger cramps....
No I didn't, which is why it has taken me sooo long to do this one. You literally can't crash once or you'll run out of time by the end. I come back and try a recording every few months, it's only taken about 3 years to do this!! At least with other rock hard cart games you have a chance - with Robocop 2 you can use the rooms as restart points and just learn the layout, Navy Seals you can make a little map and follow the same route, etc ... but with Burnin' Rubber basically one bad mistake and forget about it! Especially on the final stages the road is just littered with cars half of which are spinning out ... looks impressive actually and pretty crazy! But almost impossible!
Actually talking of DMA sound, to be honest I'm not really 100% sure what this is precisely. Apart from 'Prehistorik 2 title screen has DMA music'.
I can't find an article on the CPC Wiki describing what this is and how it can be used, only a small mention in the Plus/GX4000 hardware article http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Plus (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Plus) -
"An automatic DMA transfer system for feeding the sound chip was also added but the sound chip itself remained unchanged"
So.... DMA = Direct Memory Access? I'm guessing?
How does that translate into getting better sfx and music?
ps - does anyone have the .dsk file for this? http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/DMA_Music_Demo
QuoteSo.... DMA = Direct Memory Access? I'm guessing?
Yes,DMA Is how you programing the ay chip(sound chip).Normally in the cpc(no plus).When you need program sound.Is the z80 processor who sends the instructions to ay chip.Of course this consume cpu time(only 3,5mhz remember).
If you use dma in the plus series ,the asic of plus send the sound instructions to the ay chip.So If you not use the z80 to generate sound.You no consume the cpu time.So you can use the z80 for other tasks.More sprites for example.
Quote from: dragon on 13:23, 25 April 11
Yes,DMA Is how you programing the ay chip(sound chip).Normally in the cpc(no plus).When you need program sound.Is the z80 processor who sends the instructions to ay chip.Of course this consume cpu time(only 3,5mhz remember).
If you use dma in the plus series ,the asic of plus send the sound instructions to the ay chip.So If you not use the z80 to generate sound.You no consume the cpu time.So you can use the z80 for other tasks.More sprites for example.
Cool ... so say for example digitised sound effects (perhaps like the screeching noises in Burnin' Rubber) whilst possible to create with a normal CPC the actual sound effect consumes a lot of bytes and CPU cycles? But with DMA it can be fed directly to the AY without needing it pass through the Z80?
But in the case of Prehistorik II title music, even though there's some animated box with text there's nothing much going on so why couldn't the digitized quality music be played on a stock/normal CPC?
On the Rick Dangerous 2 128K Plus remake, that has a digitised scream "in game" which would of been tricky or not possible to have on a CPC. The DMA makes this possible.
(Correct me if I'm wrong..)
Yes, that's what I'm trying to get my head around - more the 'quality' of the sound effect or music.
I understand now that using DMA takes away the CPU overhead which is important for 'in game' ... but say you had a blank static screen with nothing else there - could you not on a stock CPC be able to replicate the same sound effect in RD2+ or the music from Prehistorik II?
(Note - I know digitised music has sometimes been used in normal CPC games, like the Crazy Cars 2 title screen - but it sounds bloody awful!)
QuoteCool ... so say for example digitised sound effects (perhaps like the screeching noises in Burnin' Rubber) whilst possible to create with a normal CPC the actual sound effect consumes a lot of bytes and CPU cycles? But with DMA it can be fed directly to the AY without needing it pass through the Z80?
I think,burning rubber not uses dma music.
To know if a game uses dma sound or hardware sprites or other feature.Open the cartridge/disk with win
ape.
When game is running go tu debug->registers.Her you can see with a v if feature is enable.An you can see the hardware sprites if its used.
Yes, with old cpc you can create the same sound as 6128 plus,but only the sound.For example view the voice digitalized of robocop 2 or jet sky simulator.When the cpu is generating the voice, all time cpu is consumed.So the cpc can't move sprites in screen.When the cpu is liberated,you can play the game.
Here you can read about program the dma(in french).
http://quasar.cpcscene.com/doku.php?id=assem:asic (http://quasar.cpcscene.com/doku.php?id=assem:asic)
QuoteOn the Rick Dangerous 2 128K Plus remake, that has a digitised scream "in game" which would of been tricky or not possible to have on a CPC. The DMA makes this possible.
Exactly.You can programme the arghhhh in normally cpc.But,If you program it,you can't move rick dangerous. :) .
Would this also depend on how many bits are used for the sample? I would of thought that with something like Robocop or Chase HQ, you could probably have the same amount of bits on a Plus for less CPU power. This would enable you to use even more bits for better quality than a CPC.
Both hardware would eventually have to hit a wall at some point on when it comes to sound and the CPC would hit that earlier.
Quote from: dragon on 14:09, 25 April 11
To know if a game uses dma sound or hardware sprites or other feature.Open the cartridge/disk with win
ape.
When game is running go tu debug->registers.Her you can see with a v if feature is enable.An you can see the hardware sprites if its used.
Attached is a screen shot of Burnin' Rubber registers in game.
Which "v" are you referring to here?
I note "DMA Channel 0" is enabled?
*EDIT*
Just out of interest, below is also the registers for Prehistorik II title screen. Looks like all 3 DMA channels are utilised (no surprise)
So perhaps then yes Burnin' Rubber is using one DMA channel, perhaps for the tyre screeches!
Quote from: Xyphoe on 12:41, 25 April 11
Sorry, what is "PRI"?
PRI=Programmable Raster Interrupt. Basically it lets the programmer set which scanline an interrupt should occur on, rather than being limited to the six fixed positions where it normally occurs.
Quote from: Xyphoe on 12:49, 25 April 11
Actually talking of DMA sound, to be honest I'm not really 100% sure what this is precisely. Apart from 'Prehistorik 2 title screen has DMA music'.
Strictly speaking it isn't 'DMA' or at least not in the traditional sense. In the plus, what you actually have is a kind of mini-processor that is capable of running little 'programs' which can do a limited range of things like send data to the sound chip or generate interrupts. It's particularly useful for things which would normally be very CPU intensive like playing back sampled sounds.
Quote from: Xyphoe on 12:49, 25 April 11
ps - does anyone have the .dsk file for this? http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/DMA_Music_Demo (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/DMA_Music_Demo)
I definitely did have at one point, if nobody can point you in the direction I'll have a dig around and see if I still do.
Yes,The sound always is limited by the sound chip(it's the same in plus and not plus).And The dma is limited,but now I not know the limit of dma+ay vs ay+z80.
Made dma for plus series,is the mode of alan sugar to reduce cost.You not change the cpu to a expensive cpu=computer more expensive but the price of the asic is the same with or without dma. And the cpc updates with more speed.
In prehistorik 2.All dma channels is used in the presentation screen.But in game it uses the dma channel 0 only but uses it.
I not sure,but maybe it use the extra power to create the mountain of backgrond.
This is a example of dma,It run in maxam 1.5: (copy and paste in maxam).
http://quasar.cpcscene.com/lib/exe/fetch.php?id=assem%3Aasic&cache=cache&media=assem:asic_dma.asm (http://quasar.cpcscene.com/lib/exe/fetch.php?id=assem%3Aasic&cache=cache&media=assem:asic_dma.asm)
So wait.... the "DMA" is not *just* useful for sound, but can be used for other processing features and sub-routines, etc?
I think I may finally be grasping this.
ie even though DMA Channel 0 is enabled in Burnin' Rubber it isn't necessarily being used for the screeching sound fx?
Also so when people refer to the 'DMA' it is actually a real chip inside, which has 3 channels that come from where and go to where exactly?
QuoteSo wait.... the "DMA" is not *just* useful for sound, but can be used for other processing features and sub-routines, etc?
You can use dma to use samples ingame.(rick dangerous aghhh :laugh: ).Or you can use dma to use cpu for better ai more sprites effects etc...
Quoteie even though DMA Channel 0 is enabled in Burnin' Rubber it isn't necessarily being used for the screeching sound fx?
mmm,not necesary.I I think the three dma channels,is connected to three channels of ay.So in pc.Heard left channel only,the right channel only(using windows sound control).So you can listen only the channel correspond to dma 0.And you found what sound is using burning rubber for dma :)
Quote from: Xyphoe on 15:34, 25 April 11
So wait.... the "DMA" is not *just* useful for sound, but can be used for other processing features and sub-routines, etc?
Also so when people refer to the 'DMA' it is actually a real chip inside, which has 3 channels that come from where and go to where exactly?
What you can do with the "DMA" is extremely limited, it's pretty much a case of sending a byte to the sound chip, generating an interrupt or basic control flow. There are 3 "DMA Channels" which, in essence, means you can run 3 of these mini DMA programs at any one time - handy if you want to play samples back on each of the three AY channels.
It's not a seperate chip as such, it's just part of the ASIC just like the Gate Array and CRTC are in a plus machine.
Quote from: dragon on 15:55, 25 April 11
mmm,not necesary.I I think the three dma channels,is connected to three channels of ay.So in pc.Heard left channel only,the right channel only(using windows sound control).So you can listen only the channel correspond to dma 0.And you found what sound is using burning rubber for dma :)
Any "DMA Channel" can send sound to any of the AY audio channels, there's no connection other than the fact there are the same number of them.
QuoteAny "DMA Channel" can send sound to any of the AY audio channels, there's no connection other than the fact there are the same number of them.
Then The programmer can be used dma for all sound ingame in burnig rubber :) .
Thanks!
So is there any way to confirm what exactly is happening and going down DMA channel 0 on Burnin' Rubber?
About why Prehistorik 2 uses DMA music at the intro: I think programmer wrote the routine for DMA only and did not bother to convert. Maybe they thought of greater animations on that screen but later threw the idea away but kept the music routine.
This article http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/ASIC seems to suggest DMA is purely only for sound channels?
Under "New Features" - "DMA sound channels"
Quote from: Xyphoe on 12:49, 25 April 11ps - does anyone have the .dsk file for this? http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/DMA_Music_Demo
http://www.cpc-power.com/cpcdemos/index.php?page=detail&num=1474 (http://www.cpc-power.com/cpcdemos/index.php?page=detail&num=1474)
About DMA usage on Amstrad +/GX , they are not very usefull for something else than sound , maybe to raise an interruption for a timer but that's all.They are widely used to load a AY register instead of using CPU to do the stuff (and to avoid dealing with this awfull AY port mapping :vomits: )
The greatest usage on my point is to allow to play samples , not only for game SFX but in music too like in the DMA demo.Sadly , there is actually no serious tracker for this on + :(
I'd dream about something like STarkos/AT with its fantastic player (a great tool , you can integrate music & SFX in less than 15 mins in a project)
About Burning Rubber , DMA0 is used to load some AY registers so we can consider DMA are used for ingame sound.
Ahhh thanks Fano! I was a dumbass and still searching for it on CPC Power in the 'Games' section - DUR! ::) :-[
That's a great demo, music sounds great - thumbs up! :)
I still don't really understand why the DMA is needed to produce those high quality samples though with nothing else going on or why a CPC couldn't - maybe without the DMA on a normal CPC the Z80 would be unable to keep up with bits per sample and end up lagging and disjointed perhaps?
QuoteSo is there any way to confirm what exactly is happening and going down DMA channel 0 on Burnin' Rubber?
Not without disassemble game.But I think he uses for all ingame sounds.Only use for derrapage has not sense.
The objetive is win power,not lost power.
On CPC , the CPU must update AY register and this is very slow to access them (awfull mapping through PPI !).You can have high quality samples like in Face Hugger Ultimate Megademo or Orion Prime but you can not do a lot of things.Same things for STarkos that allows you to play 8khz samples with digidrums.
With DMA , ASIC can update directly AY register every line (312 per frame but there are tricks to update twice) , you can have easily 15Khz samples without CPU usage so you can manage a complete game when playing sound. (RD128+ has slowdowns when playing samples but this is because of memory restrictions in main 64K)
About sound effects , in a game on CPC when using interrupts and the CPU , you can update sound 6 time per frame (50hz) , on a + , you can update sound 312 time per frame without CPU usage.
Quote
The greatest usage on my point is to allow to play samples , not only for game SFX but in music too like in the DMA demo.Sadly , there is actually no serious tracker for this on +
I found a little app fano.(I don't know if you know it).
At least you can convert ay music to dma->.
"MYMplay v0.4 for Amstrad CPC by AndyC, it plays MYM music files (converted YM files), also converts raw YM file to CPC+ DMA list"
http://genesis8.free.fr/frontend/music/mymcpc04.zip
Because the AY is supposed to get its datas with no (or fewer) help from CPU... It is supposed to "feed" automatically...
You are then supposed to be able to play some samples with less CPU intensive process... that's all...Yet it still needs RAM (in central RAM area ?)...
And there are also some bugs in the process...so it doesn't work as well as it should...
Fano would tell more...
Edit : oops he did... merd, grilled by Fano...
Quote from: ssg on 17:40, 25 April 11
About why Prehistorik 2 uses DMA music at the intro: I think programmer wrote the routine for DMA only and did not bother to convert. Maybe they thought of greater animations on that screen but later threw the idea away but kept the music routine.
At the time when Prehistorik 2 was released WEEE! worked on a DMA-tracker for the Plus range. He also made this title tune for Prehistorik 2. For Elmar Prehistorik 2 was also the opportunity to show and use all the advanced features of the Plus.
Quote from: Xyphoe on 12:49, 25 April 11
Actually talking of DMA sound, to be honest I'm not really 100% sure what this is precisely. Apart from 'Prehistorik 2 title screen has DMA music'.
I can't find an article on the CPC Wiki describing what this is and how it can be used, only a small mention in the Plus/GX4000 hardware article http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Plus (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Plus) -
"An automatic DMA transfer system for feeding the sound chip was also added but the sound chip itself remained unchanged"
So.... DMA = Direct Memory Access? I'm guessing?
How does that translate into getting better sfx and music?
ps - does anyone have the .dsk file for this? http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/DMA_Music_Demo (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/DMA_Music_Demo)
The "DMA" sound:
Each line, the ASIC reads 3 commands. It then processes these.
The commands are to stop, repeat, generate interrupts, send value to psg register.
So, the best use is sampled sound, and 3 channel sampled sound.
However, it is limited to the first 64k of ram, and each command is 2 bytes.
So if you want to play some sampled sounds you still need to fill a buffer which it then plays.
Not a biggie, but ... well it's not bad.
The only thing is it's great for sampled sound ( psg registers 8,9,10) but can also be used to write to other registers, but then, it becomes less useful I think and not as quick perhaps as a normal function to write the other registers.
Quote from: MacDeath on 20:52, 25 April 11
Edit : oops he did... merd, grilled by Fano...
You could say you were 'Fanowned' ;D ;)
Quote from: Xyphoe on 19:33, 25 April 11
I still don't really understand why the DMA is needed to produce those high quality samples though with nothing else going on or why a CPC couldn't - maybe without the DMA on a normal CPC the Z80 would be unable to keep up with bits per sample and end up lagging and disjointed perhaps?
It takes something like 40us to write a value to a single PSG register using the CPU, because you have to go a rather round-the-houses way via the PPI (very slow compared, for example, to the 128 spectrums which can talk directly to the AY via two IO ports) and you only have 64us per scanline, so you can manage about 1.5 writes per scanline. The CPC+'s DMA however can write to 3 seperate AY registers every scanline, so that's almost twice as fast as you could possibly accomplish using just the CPU alone.
Quote from: dragon on 20:45, 25 April 11
"MYMplay v0.4 for Amstrad CPC by AndyC, it plays MYM music files (converted YM files), also converts raw YM file to CPC+ DMA list"
It's like being famous. :P Actually I'd completely forgotten I'd even written that!
QuoteIt's like being famous. (http://cpcwiki.eu/forum/Smileys/akyhne/tongue.gif) Actually I'd completely forgotten I'd even written that!
And what happen with your web page of MYMplay? :'( :angel:
Quote from: dragon on 21:32, 25 April 11
And what happen with your web page of MYMplay? :'( :angel:
I don't think I had one, did I? I didn't write the original, I just ported the source code to the CPC after a thread in csa8 (as did Kev Thacker I believe). The MYM to DMA list program was a bit experimental, I don't think it actually produced particularly optimal or even terribly useful results, to be honest.
Well the vid is now live...
Enjoy!
Hopefully at the start there where I describe Plus features there isn't inaccuracies - I left it rather vague-ish just in case.
QuoteI don't think I had one, did I? I didn't write the original, I just ported the source code to the CPC after a thread in csa8 (as did Kev Thacker I believe). The MYM to DMA list program was a bit experimental, I don't think it actually produced particularly optimal or even terribly useful results, to be honest.
yes!
http://www.bigfoot.com/~AndyCadley (http://www.bigfoot.com/%7EAndyCadley)
It's funny,can you compile the MYM to DMA an try what happend with song?. ;D
QuoteEnjoy!
Hopefully at the start there where I describe Plus features there isn't inaccuracies - I left it rather vague-ish just in case.
View in youtube.I waiting for see the end.¿You played with keyboard?.
Quote from: dragon on 22:24, 25 April 11
.¿You played with keyboard?.
Yes on the keyboard
O.k I see. great! only the five!.what the hell,you need a warp motor to alcanze the number 1 wtf.
wow,I only rearched the tree lap one time.Great drive!
This game got a few seconds play on the soap opera - Eastenders!
I also recall CVG magazine laughing at the machine and offering it as boobie prize for one of their competitions.
Being a loyal CPC fan I was disgusted by this and stopped purchasing that mag.
I had an amiga by the time the CPC console came out. Its not realised that many a 16bit racer was poor compared to this game.
Quote from: andycadley on 21:44, 25 April 11
I don't think I had one, did I? I didn't write the original, I just ported the source code to the CPC after a thread in csa8 (as did Kev Thacker I believe). The MYM to DMA list program was a bit experimental, I don't think it actually produced particularly optimal or even terribly useful results, to be honest.
I think our code is still available on genesis8.
If not I think I have Andy's lying around and can put it up onto my website if needed.
Quote from: andycadley on 21:10, 25 April 11
It takes something like 40us to write a value to a single PSG register using the CPU, because you have to go a rather round-the-houses way via the PPI (very slow compared, for example, to the 128 spectrums which can talk directly to the AY via two IO ports) and you only have 64us per scanline, so you can manage about 1.5 writes per scanline. The CPC+'s DMA however can write to 3 seperate AY registers every scanline, so that's almost twice as fast as you could possibly accomplish using just the CPU alone.It's like being famous. :P Actually I'd completely forgotten I'd even written that!
Ahh when you highlight the timings like that, it is better. Although checking through the information, it mentions something about if you access ppi at the same time as the ASIC is, it delays it... I need to test this to find out exactly how and when it happens.
But a player using ASIC DMA would be a little bit faster than a normal player. Nice.
Quote from: arnoldemu on 09:15, 26 April 11
Ahh when you highlight the timings like that, it is better. Although checking through the information, it mentions something about if you access ppi at the same time as the ASIC is, it delays it... I need to test this to find out exactly how and when it happens.
But a player using ASIC DMA would be a little bit faster than a normal player. Nice.
Yeah, though for the most part the ASIC has priority over the CPU, so the impact is minimal. From the docs it would seem that DMA loads can be delayed by at most 2us, if the CPU was writing to the PSG. That'd be a total of 34us maximum (1 dead cycle, 3 fetches and 8+2 for every LOAD) for all three channels so still well within a single scanline.
Are there any games with DMA-Sound?
Navy Seals, Robocop2, Burning Rubber......no DMA at all, only the normal AY-Stuff. ???
Quote from: einoeL on 11:12, 26 April 11
Are there any games with DMA-Sound?
Navy Seals, Robocop2, Burning Rubber......no DMA at all, only the normal AY-Stuff. ???
Prehistorik 2 has it on it's title screen.
It is discussed in the other thread, that some may use the DMA to play normal AY-stuff.
rick dangerous 128+
frogger.
prehistorick2
burning rubber.
Thats all I think.
Quote from: cpc4eva on 11:12, 25 April 11
why do I feel the wec le mans game has better playability ? its just my opinion the wec le mans seems to have better control than burnin rubber - which i find strange as burnin rubber is a plus game whic in theory has better everything at its disposal - in theory
burnin rubber looks great - the colours, shadow of car flipping, background changing from day to night, the tunnel driving and scroll are great but it feels jerky on the corners and overtaking and only 2 speeds that dont really add much at all to the game.....
Xyphoe did you use the cheats ? its well hard on the time limits is burnin rubber I wouldnt care if you did use the cheats some games need it to stop you getting rsi or swollen wrists or finger cramps....
Totally agree with everything you have said. The WEC graphics look much more nicely defined and stylish, despite the lack of colour.
Quote from: einoeL on 11:12, 26 April 11
Are there any games with DMA-Sound?
When I pause Pang (using the GX4000 pause button) on the title screen the music keeps on playing.
Does this suggest it's DMA?
Pang is the only game I know of that uses vectored interrupts (ie: it runs in IM2).
Quote from: redbox on 13:43, 13 May 11
When I pause Pang (using the GX4000 pause button) on the title screen the music keeps on playing.
Does this suggest it's DMA?
No it's not using DMA. I can confirm that.
Quote from: mahlemiut on 13:58, 13 May 11
Pang is the only game I know of that uses vectored interrupts (ie: it runs in IM2).
Yes I was supprised by that. The interrupt mode 2 is more reliable on the Plus. (if you avoid the bug ;) ).
I have updated a few pages in the wiki about which features are used by which game.
I haven't done all the carts yet.
But it's interesting to see what each uses.
Some, such as KLAX, do have slightly different colours in game, although it's not obvious, but the palette registers show it to be so.
Quote from: einoeL on 11:12, 26 April 11
Are there any games with DMA-Sound?
Navy Seals, Robocop2, Burning Rubber......no DMA at all, only the normal AY-Stuff. ???
navy seals does use DMA sound, for the sound effects in game. DMA channel 0 is only used.
For sfx, it's great, you can create a short list of the data required to make the sfx, tell the dma to do it and forget about it, no cpu time used after setup and it's exactly what navy seals does, the resulting data may actually be about the same too.
QuoteSome, such as KLAX, do have slightly different colours in game, although it's not obvious, but the palette registers show it to be so.
Really ? isn't it simply because the PLUS doesn't emulate the CPC's colours that properly ?
Anyway the shame with klax is that it could have been using a 320x200 (160x200 as it is mode0) sized screen instead of the 256x200 one.
the cartridge enable to keep free RAM so to scratch on VRAM is not that needed.
Quote from: MacDeath on 15:26, 13 May 11
Really ? isn't it simply because the PLUS doesn't emulate the CPC's colours that properly ?
Yes really.
when standard cpc colours are used, plus ram will contain 0, 6 or f for each r,g,b depending on none, half and full intensity.
e.g. 066f
But when I look at Klax it has other values such as c for one or more of the elements. Ok, I'll look again, just in case I made a mistake and read a value that is not initialised or misread it.
When I look at barbarian I just standard cpc colours, so no plus colours are used here at all.
Quote from: MacDeath on 15:26, 13 May 11
Anyway the shame with klax is that it could have been using a 320x200 (160x200 as it is mode0) sized screen instead of the 256x200 one.
the cartridge enable to keep free RAM so to scratch on VRAM is not that needed.
agreed.
Well they didn't make much changes for this game, and I am sure it is a case of "just make a quick cartridge version to keep the publisher happy".
Quote from: arnoldemu on 15:40, 13 May 11
Well they didn't make much changes for this game, and I am sure it is a case of "just make a quick cartridge version to keep the publisher happy".
Like other cartridge games, sadly.
Shamefull lazy straight ports :
=Barbarian 2.
=Batman the Movie
=Klax
=Mysticall
=Tintin on the moon
(some of those were decent on CPC...shamefull on GX...)
Shamefull straight ports yet with bits of graphics recoloured :
=CrazyCar2
=Fire and Forget2
=Wild Street
=Operation Thunderbolt
shamefull games yet using PLUS : (some of them being ported from CPC anyway, sort of)
=No Exit :'(
=Dick tracy
=Copter 271
=World of Sport...
Real decent/good Games on Cartridges :
=Burnin' Rubber
=Navy Seal
=Panza KickBoxing
=Plotting
=ProTennisTour
=Pang
=Robocop2
=SuperPinballMagic
=TennisCup2
=switchblade (yet in mode1...)
Unknown (yet they look decently done :
=Skeetshot and Enforcer.
Special PLUS on disk :
=Aigle d'or 2.
=Best of the Best.
=Perhistorik 2 (slow)
=crypt of Trogan (ok)
=Spacegun (not good)
=Rick dangerous 128+...lol
What else ?
To be fair, most Titus titles weren't good at all on any machine but Fire and forget2 and crazy cars2 (yet they were already a bit outdated when re-released on Cartridge...)
So there we are... 10 really decent official games with no need to additionnal hardware (Phaser).
Anyway :
=Barbarian 2 : vcould have been good if recoloured and used some Hardsprites for a few stuffs... But the 128K cartridge was too short they even had to removes bits.
=Batman the Movie : also could have well benefited from a recolour... but the CPC graphics were sometimes far too specifically designed for the CPC palette that some pixels would have needed some changes too. and perhaps the Cartridge was also too short.
=Klax : Great game at first, just redimension the screen so to only had the "missing part"... and get a few better colour choices then.
=Mysticall : a vertical shooter which doesn't use HardSprites ? GTFO !
Also, no Game should have been 256x200sized screen equivalent on Cartridge !
This was simply too wrong !
Quote from: MacDeath on 16:12, 13 May 11
Shamefull lazy straight ports :
=Barbarian 2.
=Mysticall
agree
Quote from: MacDeath on 16:12, 13 May 11
=Batman the Movie
I need to check if they did something here
Quote from: MacDeath on 16:12, 13 May 11
=Klax
=Tintin on the moon
they did actually make some kind of effort here.. but not enough
Quote from: MacDeath on 16:12, 13 May 11
Shamefull straight ports yet with bits of graphics recoloured :
=CrazyCar2
=Fire and Forget2
=Wild Street
=Operation Thunderbolt
on each of these they did something extra, but not enough
Quote from: MacDeath on 16:12, 13 May 11
shamefull games yet using PLUS : (some of them being ported from CPC anyway, sort of)
=No Exit :'(
=Dick tracy
=Copter 271
Why shameful? they did something with all of these, pity the playability was not as good as they could have been.
Quote from: MacDeath on 16:12, 13 May 11
=World of Sport...
not much depth, but they did use quite a lot of plus features here
Quote from: MacDeath on 16:12, 13 May 11
Real decent/good Games on Cartridges :
=Burnin' Rubber
=Navy Seal
=Panza KickBoxing
=Plotting
=ProTennisTour
=Pang
=Robocop2
=SuperPinballMagic
=TennisCup2
=switchblade (yet in mode1...)
yes agree
Quote from: MacDeath on 16:12, 13 May 11
Unknown (yet they look decently done :
=Skeetshot and Enforcer.
Special PLUS on disk :
=Aigle d'or 2.
=Best of the Best.
=Perhistorik 2 (slow)
=crypt of Trogan (ok)
=Spacegun (not good)
=Rick dangerous 128+...lol
not checked yet, but I'll get to them eventually.
I'm using a internal version of Arnold, with new gui, and which has a much better hardware information.
I can watch the game running and see the values change in real time so I can see which features are used, and without checking the code, get an idea of what they are doing.
So I'll do the same with these and report back.
Quote from: MacDeath on 16:12, 13 May 11
What else ?
To be fair, most Titus titles weren't good at all on any machine but Fire and forget2 and crazy cars2 (yet they were already a bit outdated when re-released on Cartridge...)
So there we are... 10 really decent official games with no need to additionnal hardware (Phaser).
Anyway :
=Barbarian 2 : vcould have been good if recoloured and used some Hardsprites for a few stuffs... But the 128K cartridge was too short they even had to removes bits.
=Batman the Movie : also could have well benefited from a recolour... but the CPC graphics were sometimes far too specifically designed for the CPC palette that some pixels would have needed some changes too. and perhaps the Cartridge was also too short.
=Klax : Great game at first, just redimension the screen so to only had the "missing part"... and get a few better colour choices then.
=Mysticall : a vertical shooter which doesn't use HardSprites ? GTFO !
Also, no Game should have been 256x200sized screen equivalent on Cartridge !
This was simply too wrong !
well, I haven't looked at the cartridge data to see how much is used, so I can't comment on missed bits or if they had to make changes to make it fit.
it would be good to get an idea of how much it cost for cartridge development compared to tape/disc, perhaps there was a difference here.. perhaps larger roms meant more cost?
Not so much of a problem for us now.
I think we have to consider that not all plus features are suited for all games.
We then have to consider they probably rushed most of these out of the door - perhaps the great ones they actually spent some time developing... would be good to know from the programmers.
Ok, so I have a game in development that uses plus features... not sure how many I plan to use, but what would make it actually great?
Quote=Batman the Movie
I need to check if they did something here
Well, a new intro page is not enough...
Quote from: MacDeath on 17:13, 13 May 11
Well, a new intro page is not enough...
I modified your "Direct Disk to Cartridge" port page.
I corrected some English, added information about cost of cartridge compared to disk tape. (not sure if I got the cartridge price correct), added links to some examples. I hope you didn't mind?
Ok, can anyone help me with the cost of cartridge, disk and tape games in France at the time cartridges were being sold. So we can add it to show the price difference and "what you got for your money".
I think I also need to add some links to the cartridge games that got it right in this article as "what they all should have been like".
250Fr in 1990... something like that...
("General" from Amstrad 100% december1990...)
Micromania even sold them for 295Fr... ouch !
While a DiskGame was more like 150Fr and a tape game 100Fr.
Concerning production cost... we got to remember that 3" disks were expensive as hell...
general (same date) : 15 x maxell CF2 = 295Fr (300... 20Fr per disk) with a box offered.
While a mundane 3"1/2 disk was 2,90Fr per unit... :'(
Cartridges needed 2 chips : ACID and ROM... the PCB and the casing (plus additionnal production and resistors...)
By may 1991... Jessico retailer (Amstrad 100% mag)
=Ram expansion : 500Fr (+64K for 464/664), 1090 for "256K" ??? (total, must be +128K or even +192K)
=GX cartridges : 225Fr each.
(with vaporwares such as CougarForce, Badlands, KickOff, Midnight Resistance, NightBreed, Shadow of the Beast 2... lol...)
= Amstrad Basic cartridge (for PLUS, to get "98% CPC softs compatibles... lol) : 65fr.
=3" CF2 =
x10 : 175F
X20 : 315Fr...
ACID being custom it was probably a bit expensive (on the other hand it is just a small chip)
Seriously, amstrad could even better had got some ASIC with ROM+ACID in a single chip... :-\
Amstrad, according to some rumors, did the PLUS series only to get rid of components stocks...
They had a large stock of old 128K ROMs.
Disk Games ranged from 145 to 195Fr.
I even see BAT at 245Fr... ouch.
MAXAM ROM is 400Fr.
A ROM board is 350Fr.
(I modified the page too...)
Chase HQ II hasn't been dumped yet, right?
I was trying Pang on Winape and the plane sprite on the map is corrupted ???
Quote from: arnoldemu on 16:43, 13 May 11
I'm using a internal version of Arnold, with new gui, and which has a much better hardware information.
I can watch the game running and see the values change in real time so I can see which features are used, and without checking the code, get an idea of what they are doing.
Ohhhhh?????? WHERE?!
Quote from: Xyphoe on 21:56, 25 April 11
Well the vid is now live...
Enjoy!
Hopefully at the start there where I describe Plus features there isn't inaccuracies - I left it rather vague-ish just in case.
Incredible. I've been playing this since it first came out and never made it to lap 3.
How did you record it.
With win 8.1 and win ape i can't record video that plays back more than once
Don't forget the great Bumpy's arcade fantasy. The game uses a better palette color. But use a original dsk rip as many cracked one don't enable cpc+ features.
Quote from: kawickboy on 12:38, 20 October 14
Don't forget the great Bumpy's arcade fantasy. The game uses a better palette color. But use a original dsk rip as many cracked one don't enable cpc+ features.
never even heard of that. Guess what I'm doing tonight teeheehee.
Edit: Except I am not, because I cannot find anything that will write the image sucessfully :(
|wdsk from the minibooster does the best job, but the game crashes when selecting a level
SamDisk leaves a corrupt directory on side 1
CPCDiskXP results in Side 2 not being recognised as the game data.
I have tried mix and matching the versions and nothing works.
The HXC also fails with this image :(
Edit2: And I cannot find an emulator that works either :(