Coding a CPC game: motivation and feedback.

[andycadley]

@mr_Lou isn't that the point of sites like Patreon? Although I still think if people are worried about money they're on the wrong track.

[mr_lou]

@mr_Lou isn't that the point of sites like Patreon? Although I still think if people are worried about money they're on the wrong track.

I didn't know about Patreon. Just took a look, and yes, I suppose that could do it.
But it'll only work if everyone thinks it's a good idea of course.
I suspect most would prefer the CPC community had its own system. Could be something simple as a site to refer to, on which the basic idea is explained: "Donate 1 euro to keep devs motivated".
Each dev would have a page that would list their donations.

Anyway, just my thoughts. Yet another project for someone to make.
Patreon could work. But a site of our own would make things more grouped together I suppose.

[Rhino]

With a really successful title, ignoring costs I reckon you could maybe get around €100. The idea of actually making a living off it is laughable. You can probably make more by filming YouTube videos of old games with ads on them. You can certainly do better by making one of those phone games that continually sell micro payment packages of coins and boosts of some sort.

I've never thought about making money with retro development, but it's really an absolute impossibility? As mr_lou said, if we add the retro community of all platforms, there are tens of thousands of potential buyers with high purchasing power. Of course, if someone sets this goal, he should apply a business approach and develop cross-platform.

Recently there was news of a development team that seems to have this goal:

http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/games/nogalious-(new-game-in-the-oven)/10/

As they say in the RetroManiac's interview: "My goal is to turn it into a profitable business that will become the new Spanish referent, in the 'Dinamic' of the moment." ...

[Puresox]

You have to make it easy for people to show there appreciation , myself  I am put off by rigmarole , and If something is in front of me and doesn't involve too much fannying around (with regard to this issue)I'll make the effort to click and pay. The system with paypal which I paid For R-type ,was painless. I personally am not too fussed about getting materials to hold. So I am doing it more to support the efforts. If someone inspires me I don't mind randomly forwarding a few quid here and there , It is not going to be missed particularly. And I do not feel People are undeserving of it(Double Negative sorry) . I enjoy the nostalgia from the machine . And If supporting peoples efforts keeps bringing about a better respect for this machine then I'll give when I can.
I really feel most of the guys are not fussed about making any money anyway. I just think it is at least a way of receiving some credit. For a Labour of Love

[Joseman]

Does anyone think that it is possible to make money (100k or more) developing for retro computers?
Although they are multiplatform developments?
Maybe this is the real challenge

make SMB and I will pay 100k or more for it!! (only one condition: i need to win the "primitiva" here in spain to have this amount of money, BUT if i win, i'll pay!!!)

[tjohnson]

Really appretiate your comment, however, please bear in mind my game is not suitable for young children! play away, but don't let your 8 year old at it.

Chibi akumas contains a lot of bad language, and the main character is intentionally an extremely bad role-model!

that said, enjoy the game yourself! but let your 8 year old play that new dizzy game on the spectrum instead!
http://www.vintageisthenewold.com/crystal-kingdom-dizzy-2017/

just re-iterating what I said before, I just tried to find a link to this game - I went on duck duck go, and did a search for 'new dizzy game' and even 'new russian dizzy game' (it is russian isn't it?) and could not find it... I had to search for the name of the rom itself... just to say, it's not just my free game or the CPC that needs peoples support!

Best not show my 7 year old then!  I did show your game to my 11 year old son and he didn't show a great deal of interest but then he hasn't shown any interest in retrogaming, normally groans about this ancient stuff again, he's more interested in the multi billion machine called Minecraft and watching inane videos of the same on YouTube.  I will have another go at showing him, maybe for your next build you could do a censored version which you can select in the options, safe for your mum and kids option as it were, or perhaps if memory is an issue a separate disk set.

[Carnivius]

I don't think it's possible to make that kind of money on retrogame development.
But I definitely think it's possible to make more money targeting the niche retro platforms than the modern platforms.
The modern platforms are drowning in games, and the players are youngsters who don't wanna pay anything.
But the retro platforms have a different group of users, older people who is more willing (and can better afford) to pay a small amount for a game, and I also think more of us would be willing.

I admit I haven't bought any newer CPC game myself, but that's been because I've had the wrong mindset. I've been thinking that I don't need/want a physical copy.
But I have donated to developer who's done games that I like.

I would suggest a different approach for the future: Everyone should donate something. Just a small amount. 1 euro would be fine. 10 euro if you really enjoy the game.
I'm sure everyone would be willing to pay a single euro for a new CPC game. It's petty cash to everyone. But to the developer it'll be a great motivator to create the next game.
So even if you don't like the game he just released, donate anyway. He's an active developer, and his next game may be one that you'll like.

All we need is some kind of system everyone can figure out how to use....  I'm not sure it'll be enough to simply write a paypal address.

Is kinda what my post a couple pages ago was pretty much saying too.
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/games/coding-a-cpc-game-motivation-and-feedback/msg146986/#msg146986

[keith56]

@mr_Lou isn't that the point of sites like Patreon? Although I still think if people are worried about money they're on the wrong track.

Yes, my understanding of patreon is that it allow people to make regular small payments to content creators.

But from my point of view, I don't want to make any money programming CPC games... I get paid to program during my day job, and often the results are unused, ignored, or unfinished... I'm programming for the CPC to try to make something 'unique' of my own for the system I learned development on,  and in the hope others may enjoy it...

It's the fact no one was replying to my thread (helping with the promotion), or visiting my website (word of mouth bringing new users) that I was frustrated with - not a lack of donations (which I never asked for).

[mr_lou]

But from my point of view, I don't want to make any money programming CPC games...
...
It's the fact no one was replying to my thread (helping with the promotion), or visiting my website (word of mouth bringing new users) that I was frustrated with - not a lack of donations (which I never asked for).

I understand that.
But earning money doing CPC development would still be a good motivator, wouldn't it? At least I know it would for other devs.

I wouldn't personally reply to a thread about a new release, if the game didn't interest me. (And I admit that I'm rather picky). But I would probably still donate a bit, if there was an easy-to-use system for it.
Then, when donating, it should auto-post on Facebook or Twitter something like "I just donated to <game-project>". Dunno if that's possible.

It looks like Patreon is about paying a monthly fee, while i'm more interested in supporting individual projects.

[mr_lou]

Ok.... I can't help getting ideas.
This probably either belongs in a thread of its own, or else should be put in another thread that already discussed this not so long ago, but here it is for now:

Someone should make a website.
This website could be called "CPC-foundation" for example.
Gamers and supporters subscribe to it; pays a monthly fee.
Game-devs sign up (free), creates an account.
When game-devs release a new game, they submit it to the site.
When a game is submitted to the site, all subscribers are mailed about it. (If the site has a Facebook page and/or Twitter, then it's also posted there of course).
This mail notification makes sure that everyone who's interested in new CPC releases are informed about new releases.
When informed about a new release, subscribers must download and judge the game. This is what a subscription obligates. (Online emulation would also be nice). Then they vote on it. (It is not allowed to cast a vote based on a video. You must try out the game).
The vote will serve as an overall visual grade on the site, but will also determine how much money the dev will receive. Everyone has one month to vote.
When a subscriber votes, he gets a chance to post his vote to his Facebook and/or Twitter etc etc. "I just voted <game project> a 10!"

Say everyone pays a single euro each month.
100 subscribers = 100 euro each month
Only one game-project can processed for each months payment. Sometimes there may be a queue (like when games from CPCRetroDev are released), and sometimes there may be room for 2 or more games to be processed and payed a month.
So you can max earn 100 euro - IF all 100 subscribers voted 10 for your game (which will never happen).
Someone voting 5 means you'll only get half a euro from that person.

10-liner BASIC vs 4-year long projects? Doesn't matter in this regard. I'm pretty sure the 4-year project will receive more 10s than the BASIC one, but the period of time spent to make the project is irrelevant in this context.

Hopefully a site like that would create a little hype within the retrogame community, which would automatically result in more exposure for everyone.

As far as I can see a site like this would make sure everyone would get some publicity. And everyone would be more motivated. Everyone can afford participating.
"All" we need, is for someone to make the site. Or maybe the functionality could be added to an existing site?

What did I miss?

[Puresox]

This is what is needed ^^. whether it has those parameters who knows , but organisation could help make a cottage industry. And it may just start small and very trivial , but it is better that way, to fine tune it.

[Puresox]

One thing I don't like , is people having to feel commited to paying something every (Week/Month etc) If people want to add,I would like to do it anonymously generally. But I understand some might like to feel they get some recognition.And I think keeping it within the Wiki would help people be in touch with coders, and not feel they are paying money to some shyster. 

[mr_lou]

One thing I don't like , is people having to feel commited to paying something every (Week/Month etc) If people want to add,I would like to do it anonymously generally. But I understand some might like to feel they get some recognition.And I think keeping it within the Wiki would help people be in touch with coders, and not feel they are paying money to some shyster.

Everything should be transparent.
It's no different than any other club. And that's essentially what this would be: A club of some sort.
Members pay a members fee. A small one, but still.
In this case, all of the money goes to the developers.
Say there are 100 members. Each pays 1 euro each month. (Or 12 euro a year to simplify things).
So first month, there's 100 euro available.
Then a game is submitted.
As per club rules, all members must now check out this game, and give it a vote. (If you don't wanna do this, the club isn't for you. This is a club is for CPC game enthusiasts).
Say all members give this game a 5. This means the game-dev gets payed 50 euro.
There is now 50 euro left.
Wait till next month. Each member again pays a euro. There is now 150 euro available.
Next game is submitted and evaluated. Members vote to pay game-dev 25 euro.
There is now 125 euro left. That is more than a euro per member. Therefor the next game in the queue can be evaluated now too.
As long as there is 1 euro per member in the club-wallet, a game can be evaluted.

If you don't wanna pay, fair enough, then you just can't participate in the votes that release the money for the game-dev.

[reidrac]

Out of curiosity, who would be really interested in money to keep doing CPC games?

I may continue making games for free, personally I think it's shame if physical editions go away, but I guess that's OK. If current community of CPC users is small or people don't like physical editions (all for valid reasons, not saying everybody should buy), then that's where we are at.

We are living a sweet time for the CPC, let's enjoy it while it lasts!

[mr_lou]

Out of curiosity, who would be really interested in money to keep doing CPC games?

I'm not sure how many would consider e.g. 50 euro as "making money" when it comes down to it.
But wouldn't it make it a bit more interesting when there's a potential prize waiting? Of course. Why else would so many devs participate in the CPCRetroDev competition.

[reidrac]

Why else would so many devs participate in the CPCRetroDev competition.

That might be assuming a bit too much, I don't know. We would need to ask the people submitting the games.

[mr_lou]

That might be assuming a bit too much, I don't know. We would need to ask the people submitting the games.

In any case, having a page like this would be pretty much the same.
It's a group of CPC enthusiasts who'd focus on game-development. Focus on rewarding and giving publicity.
The only difference I see is that this would be an ongoing thing with much lower prizes, but in return always some kind of prize.
Making a quick BASIC game would earn you a few euros. Making a 4-year long project would make you more.

Anyway, the idea has been shared. Either someone picks it up, or they don't. I can live without it, and if it becomes a reality I'd definitely participate. Because I'd love to see more games for the CPC.

[andycadley]

I'm not sure how many would consider e.g. 50 euro as "making money" when it comes down to it.
But wouldn't it make it a bit more interesting when there's a potential prize waiting? Of course. Why else would so many devs participate in the CPCRetroDev competition.

YMMV, from my point of view it's a hassle filling out tax forms for essentially no real benefit. If anything it disincentivizes development.

[Puresox]

Are gifts taxable?Out of interest

[andycadley]

Gifts, probably not, but I'm not sure you could claim that a gift rather than payment for work done.

[Rhino]

I found an example of simple retro game making over $100k. So, yes, it is possible to make these amounts of money with a retro development.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stirringdragongames/unknown-realm-an-8bit-rpg-for-pc-and-commodore-64

I think some of the keys to its success may be:

- They have managed to present an attractive project for many people.
- They have made it very visible.
- They have focused on a large multiplatform market (PC + C64) and very lucrative in cartridges luxury editions.
- They have given multiple purchase options.
- And lastly, they have probably been very lucky.

The biggest retro market is USA, and the most extended 8-bit machines there were the C64 and NES, if I'm not mistaken. Collectors of both systems are accustomed to paying large quantities per cartridges, which have much greater profit margin than tapes or discs.

A CPC lover who wants to make real money probably has to make the games compatible with CPC, C64, NES and PC. In addition, he could add other systems like Spectrum, or MSX, but I do not think that would increase revenue too much.

[Rhino]

make SMB and I will pay 100k or more for it!! (only one condition: i need to win the "primitiva" here in spain to have this amount of money, BUT if i win, i'll pay!!!)

hehe, OK, I agree.

[reidrac]

The biggest retro market is USA, and the most extended 8-bit machines there were the C64 and NES, if I'm not mistaken. Collectors of both systems are accustomed to paying large quantities per cartridges, which have much greater profit margin than tapes or discs.

The $49 pledge is the first one that includes a "ziplock" bag edition. I was told off by one guy because he felt Poly Play shipping costs where "a rip off", and you get all the goodies for way less than $49...

You're right that the community size matters here. Also luck, but good C64 games seem to sell well (easily in the 100 units range); and people don't seem to mind prices too much. Oh, well... some people may, but if there are enough users there's always a chance you may cover costs.

[keith56]

YMMV, from my point of view it's a hassle filling out tax forms for essentially no real benefit. If anything it disincentivizes development.

andycadley just hit the nail on the head for me... if there is a 1 in a million chance I'm going to end up with tax problems... the whole thing is not worth it. unless you think I can earn so much I can hire an expert accountant in UK & Japan tax law...

If you want to help my game financially, then someone can collect all the donations together, and pay for google adwords, or sponsored tweets to promote the game... but please don't give it to me.

It's word of mouth promotion I'm after, not cash returns - seriously, just retweet the release of my game/ like my youtube video, make a post about my game on some forum somewhere if you like it... that's all I want, not paypal coming to me demanding I validate my bank account because I've started getting random money from people.

[andycadley]

I found an example of simple retro game making over $100k. So, yes, it is possible to make these amounts of money with a retro development.

A few observations:


1) It rasied over $100K, it didn't make over $100K. There are going to be a lot of costs in fulfilling some of those offers.
2) They're targeting PC/Mac as well as the C64, that puts it squarely in the mainstream of game development (even if it's a retro-styled) game. People that don't want the "hassle" of messing around with emulators and such become part of the target market.


But, fair play to them, if they can actually make a living providing retro games then good for them. It will be interesting to see when the game is actually released.