MSX Gryzor?

[ivarf]

Can we not steer this into a CPC vs c64 debate please?

Yeah, CPC vs MSX1 is enough. CPC wins easily!

Yeah yeah, we all know that the c64 sucks and all that, but still I want to see (and hear) something like this on any of the other 8 bit computers of it's time:

Mayhem in monsterland C64

And this game runs at 60fps, if my memory serves me well. You can't notice that on the youtube video.

Thats SuperMario running with a pale skin. Looks shit and sounds bad, moves like a dream

[MacDeath]

Looks shit and sounds SID, moves like a dream

As usual on c64. If it could have a CPC palette this game would look far better.
C64 wasn't that good at Cartoonish cute graphics (see Bubble bobble or Rainbow Island or North and South..)

C64 was a nice machine anyway, no wonder it is still the best selling machine Ever...
But it's palette is its main flaw IMO, but of course the demo scene managed to do sweet looking thing with it, thanks to many trick.

Games on the other hands...

MSX1... ok the Japanese cartridge games were a lot better than many Speccy or CPC speccy ports, in some ways.

the cruel lack of real scrolling is even more painful than on CPC.

And often Monocolour sprites... well...
To me it's just a Spectrum with a bit less colour clashes... but Speccy often actually managed to be smoother on scrolling and even sprites animations.

Also many MSX fans argue about the many superior sounds on "MSX"... they always see the msot advanced ones, like a MSX2 with all sound upgrades, extra large amount of RAM and even a +2 upgrade... fact is, nobody had those in Europe.

Most guys had a MSX1 with basic AY sound and 64K RAM only...
Perhaps a few lucky guys had a MSX2 with only AY and 64K rAM...


8-bit battles salamander
The typical "8bit wars" bias.
CPC version is Euro-Speccyported to death while MSX is Cartridge Japanese production and gets access to the "optional" extra sound harware.
Still MSX1 version can't scroll shit and had some "character based" issues, while CPC manage quite well a speccy emulation.

But look at Shinobi on the other hand, where MSX is also Euro-Speccyported to death...

[Gryzor]

Still, even though colours are really pale and all that, it still looks and feels pretty nice, with lots of beautiful little touches.


I think that over-reaction from our part is a kind of knee-jerk reaction to comments coming from opposing sides about the CPC being lame. So, in passing on to the defensive people tend to overplay the CPC's powers and downgrade the others' strengths.


CAN WE GET BACK ON TOPIC NOW?

[ivarf]

Still, even though colours are really pale and all that, it still looks and feels pretty nice, with lots of beautiful little touches.


I think that over-reaction from our part is a kind of knee-jerk reaction to comments coming from opposing sides about the CPC being lame. So, in passing on to the defensive people tend to overplay the CPC's powers and downgrade the others' strengths.


CAN WE GET BACK ON TOPIC NOW?

na, its just a bit of overthetop trolling

[MacDeath]

CAN WE GET BACK ON TOPIC NOW?

ouch, the CAPS LOCK OF DEATH LASER BEAM SHOUTING !!!!!

what was the topic anyway ?

[Metr]

MSX Probotector

[ivarf]

The topic is: Do a version of Gryzor exist on the MSX?

[Gryzor]

[attachimg=1]

[Gryzor]

Unlocked the topic. Sorry, it's that weird bug where a topic gets locked every now and then...

[Puresox]

C64 wins sadly , salamander is an ugly example for the Amstrad .

[TotO]

It's a topic about GRYZOR MSX or I'm wrong???
You know ; It's easy to open a new thread for speaking about different things...

[MacDeath]

C64 wins sadly , salamander is an ugly example for the Amstrad .

The Amstrad Salamander can't really be considered a CPC game IMO...

Really some straight Speccy game here... only with half colours.

[mgman]

Alright, no. You know what? Things got out of hand. Let me clarify some more because we got off on the wrong foot.

@Metr:
The name change has nothing to do with the strange multiplayer difference. Why they changed the multiplayer mode is beyond anyone. As for what you replied to me, I'm confused why you disagree. I made it explicit that Ocean's home conversions are based off the version of Contra that is Gryzor. I know it's the same game. But I'm saying the MSX version is based off the original version as in Contra (Japan region). What's the big deal? Also, I never criticized any of Ocean's ports. Except for C64 port, I think they were really well done. The reason I'm saying not to compare all the computer ports is for the sake of article quality standards I merely suggested. If you want a comparison of all the computer ports, I have a years-old document on it. As for a lot of the other stuff you mentioned (like about me being a Contra enthusiast), I don't know what to say (a little confused). Finally, Contra was not renamed Gryzor due to avoiding reference to Iran-Contra Affair or the Nicaraguan rebels. For reasons I pointed out before.

@ivarf:
I don't know what to say about the hardware. I was referring to the game itself. I can't imagine a game like DOS Contra being beyond 8-bit, but I could be wrong. As for the machine not being 8-bit, well... I know of at least a few machines that play 8-bit games when they're capable of a lot more.

@Gryzor:
For the most part, fair enough. For the sentence I have issue with, the communities of the other ports claim likewise for their own version. I at least find it redundant when there's like "X community finds X version the best, Y community finds Y version the best, etc." The music is actually quite a big deal since it was mentioned in the credits of the arcade game. I need to pull up that info again, I have it on my HD; like I said, finding good info on the Contra series is pretty tough these days, so don't expect too much success through google and the like. The big difference between Gryzor and Contra on arcade is the 2 player mode. Contra back in the day was known for its simultaneous 2 player action. It's an element that's been retained for the most part throughout the series. However, strangely, in Gryzor, 2 player mode isn't simultaneous and is more turn-based.

@MacDeath:
This is more the stickler in me speaking, but there is no version called Gryzor for NES/Famicom. The Japanese version is Contra and someone misnamed an MSX Contra ROM as Gryzor and from there, the misconception began spreading everywhere else.

[Gryzor]

Oh, come on, we're going in circles here...


-So you say you know it's the same game, but it's not?
-So Gryzor is one-player Contra? Cool, now I know the difference in the releases. Still, it's the same. f*cking. game. Minus one feature, but it's still the same.
-Your argument on the Iran-Contra affair[nb]Btw, I don't think the issue was the Iran-Contra, but the Contra-Santinistas one.[/nb] is, again, very weak. It doesn't matter the least if music was credited (how?), people wanted to avoid the embarrassment with as little hassle as possible. I imagine it went something like:

"-Hey, boss, you know, people are giving us the stink eye because they know what's happening with the Contra case!"
"-Ummmm, oh well, we'll change the name"
"-But what about the music? We've got a couple of pieces referring to the case!"
"-So what? Who will notice that?"
"-But, twenty-five years from now, people are going to be debating this in retro fora!"
"-You must be nuts. I'll be retired by then anyway. So long, got some sushi to eat".

You know, ockham's razor and all.


-the article says that the community thinks this is a top CPC game. You're getting all confused. It's doesn't state (at the point you refer to) that "the community thinks this is the best version". This comes later, and is explained. And even if it was the way you describe it, sheesh, who cares, such a small detail... semantics, I'd say. Now, if you think some other version is better, you're more than welcome to ammend or change or discuss.

[TotO]

It's usual for Konami to change games name for USA.

Green Beret -> Rush'n Attack
Salamander -> Life Force
Contra -> Gryzor
...

About the Arcade version (the one), GFx look pastel and flat like old 80/85's games. It's the same for most ports.
The CPC version, thanks to Mark K. Jones, look vibrant and relief like modern 85/90's games. So, it's not a fidelity but an improvement.

The CPC version is not perfect and GFx don't make a full game.
The lack of scrolling, missing stages and only one tune (great maze theme) during all the game show the 64K limitation for working on all CPC range of computers.

But... It's a really dynamic game and impossible to not enjoy it. (like Renegade does)
By the way, it's my prefered version too.

[Metr]

@Metr:
The name change has nothing to do with the strange multiplayer difference. Why they changed the multiplayer mode is beyond anyone. As for what you replied to me, I'm confused why you disagree. I made it explicit that Ocean's home conversions are based off the version of Contra that is Gryzor. I know it's the same game. But I'm saying the MSX version is based off the original version as in Contra (Japan region). What's the big deal? Also, I never criticized any of Ocean's ports. Except for C64 port, I think they were really well done. The reason I'm saying not to compare all the computer ports is for the sake of article quality standards I merely suggested. If you want a comparison of all the computer ports, I have a years-old document on it. As for a lot of the other stuff you mentioned (like about me being a Contra enthusiast), I don't know what to say (a little confused). Finally, Contra was not renamed Gryzor due to avoiding reference to Iran-Contra Affair or the Nicaraguan rebels. For reasons I pointed out before.



@Gryzor:
The big difference between Gryzor and Contra on arcade is the 2 player mode. Contra back in the day was known for its simultaneous 2 player action. It's an element that's been retained for the most part throughout the series. However, strangely, in Gryzor, 2 player mode isn't simultaneous and is more turn-based.

I'm asking for confirmation to Ocean crew members, but for now this should state Konami requested a port of Contra (arcade) not Gryzor (arcade), and as the game was renamed Gryzor in Europe they called it this way.

"Ocean Software produced ports of Contra for the European market and renamed the game 'Gryzor' (which was the name of the arcade game in Europe)."

Outside Japan Konami precised non-japanese computers to do the home conversions, so they got Ocean for the task.
Usually Konami involves a lot in their games so it's normal they requested to be close to the arcade.
I'm still pretty sure that for home conversions like the Amstrad with all the limitations compared from an arcade machine, it's easier to create a turn based multiplayer rather than a simultaneous system and at least, have multiplayer.
Why the Gryzor Arcade has turn based system? Dunno really, I don't know about Jammas to know if they were imported, created in europe with some diferences, if in Japan they could use something like in NES ports that they were allowed to use different chips to get improvements for the game or any other stuff that could create this issue, but really I supose that's and answer probably only Konami will know.
But this as a fact, I think is really a coincidence for now until any reliable font.


Name theories:
Also requested the name change question to the crew, for now I only got a "I think" answer, and it is:

"inappropriate due to its meaning"

Really, think about it, it makes sense. There were more games like Green Beret / Rush'n Attack -Russian Attack- (between A REAL LOT) that got different names to be considered inappropriate. It's the only theory that wins a name change.
Why Gryzor? Dunno, but here comes really handy that Bill Rizer, lost in translation, Gryzor, sounds awesome. But this is just wondering.


Why only European version was named Gryzor?
I would say "Timing". Check the Konami LCD Version (I think it dates also from 1989 like the MSX game):
Japanese Names on it (and I know it I have the Japanese version on my desk): CONTRA Kanjis - KO-N-TO-RA Katakana - GRYZOR in roman letters (curiously all the names for their same game)
US Version names on it (And this maybe answers your why it was called "C"): Just the letter 'C', that the censorship on the name they probably realize to put when they have time to do it, and also you can see GRYZOR. Not a CONTRA Kanji, not KO-N-TO-RA Katakana.


When the name don't supose a problem, you can go back to it.


And for the last, but not the worst:

MSX Version is from 1989, it's really SO late, you have the time to think again about your game, and maybe try modifications on it, more levels, different system, and NO MULTIPLAYER (why it was not called Gryzor then? Well forget this pause it was a joke).
For me this is like having Manic Miner, and think about creating Jet Set Willy+Manic Miner Levels.
I will try, we got 2 years difference and we can see what happens.
Well, we dont have a Manic Miner on this machine and it uses same chars, let's call it Contra.
Really, MSX Contra seems inspired on Contra, but I would not dare to say that fast it's a direct port of Contra Arcade for the MSX and say other versions are not.



And sorry for the commentary of the Contra enthusiast, I took the commentary of Contra nut as that. I was pointing I like the name Gryzor, and as it's the first name/game I tried of the Contra universe, I was reticent to use the Contra name, despite the fact I know from where it comes. Didn't mean to offence.


And the topic interest me as all these answers generated, that's why I'm writing here besides my english is poor. Sorry again if it seems an aggressive text, but I'm just trying to point what I got as arguments. I also would like to have the wiki filled with great and verified content about the game.

Cheers.

[mgman]

Oh, come on, we're going in circles here...


-So you say you know it's the same game, but it's not?
-So Gryzor is one-player Contra? Cool, now I know the difference in the releases. Still, it's the same. f*cking. game. Minus one feature, but it's still the same.
-Your argument on the Iran-Contra affair[nb]Btw, I don't think the issue was the Iran-Contra, but the Contra-Santinistas one.[/nb] is, again, very weak. It doesn't matter the least if music was credited (how?), people wanted to avoid the embarrassment with as little hassle as possible. I imagine it went something like:



You know, ockham's razor and all.


-the article says that the community thinks this is a top CPC game. You're getting all confused. It's doesn't state (at the point you refer to) that "the community thinks this is the best version". This comes later, and is explained. And even if it was the way you describe it, sheesh, who cares, such a small detail... semantics, I'd say. Now, if you think some other version is better, you're more than welcome to ammend or change or discuss.

Understand this: I'm not trying to say they're 2 different games. I thought I made that pretty damn explicit.

About the reference to Iran-Contra affair, I'm trying to dig up an interview that was on the old Contra DB where Konami explains that avoiding reference wasn't the reason for a rename.

About the Gryzor article, I'm not confusing anything. Let me spell it out here: "This is probably the best port amongst 8 bit computers, always referenced as such by Amstrad CPC fans in the 8-bit wars." THAT'S what I'm talking about. Equally, the C64 or ZX Spectrum community can say "This is probably the best port amongst 8 bit computers, always referenced as such by C64/ZX Spectrum fans in the 8-bit wars." I'm not saying the statement is wrong. I mean, don't you think that bit right there is quite obvious when you're considering which community you're looking at? But I guess that's semantics; and as I said, I'm only making a suggestion about article standards (don't need an obvious statement in there), I'm not trying to force anything here.

Random fact about the LCD game: They took the Gryzor cover art, slapped it onto the LCD device and pasted "C" (for US release) and "魂斗羅" (for Japan release). They couldn't put the effort to make their own label. You can even see some of the "Z" from "Gryzor" sticking out.

[Metr]

So we got:
- US Contra Arcade 1987
- US Super Contra Arcade 1988
- US Konami LCD "C" 1989
- US Super C NES: 1990
- US Operation C Nintendo Game boy: 1991


And yes it's harder to put CONTRA where the sticker got the 'C', they had a hard time Copy-Pasting the symbols. Also name it once in the box.


Contra Database:

Super C:
There's no real explanation for why the title was changed from "Super Contra" to "Super C" in America.
Some speculate that it was done to avoid association with the Iran-Contra scandal.



Contra Headquarters:
In the original Japanese game, Contra is meant to be the name of the fighting force made up of our two heroes:
Bill "Mag Dog" Rizer and Lance "Scorpian" Bean. Furthermore, Shattered Soldier defines a Contra as "a title awarded to a superior soldier possessing almost super human drive and bility,
while excelling in guerilla tactics." But as it turns out, there are many more layers behind this title.

Side note: Contra has more Spanish (I think) origin than French   "Contre" is French, yes. But Contra itself is a Spanish word and it means against.

The exact reason for renaming Contra to Gryzor is unknown. Same with Abbreviating many Contra games to "**** C" (like Super Contra to Super C). More info on this in the discussion page.

"THIS IS YOUR TEXT ABOUT THE MEANING COMING FROM SPANISH WORD"
(and it means the guerilla groups took their name probably from that):
Guerilla groups in Nicaragua, skilled in jungle warfare, were known as "contras". Given that the original game starts off in a jungle, this is definitely not coincidental.
They probably got their name from Spanish, where "contra" means "against".
It's also a Latin rootword that means "opposed to" - looks at words like "contrary" and "contrast".
This meaning can be applied to acts of agression and wars.


The way "Contra" is written in Japanese is somewhat interesting.
It is composed of three kanji (Chinese characters that represent an ideal) to create one made-up word.
The first one, pronounced "kon", means "spirit"; the second, pronounced "to", means "battle" and the third, pronounced "ra", means some sort of cloth.
When sounded out together, the result is "kontora", which is how "Contra" is pronounced in Japanese.
This is known as a "gikun", where the kanji is used for phoentic pronunciation over actual meaning.
However, if you want to look at the direct translation anyway, you get "Battle Spirit Cloth".
This seems a little esoteric, but it could possibly be applied to the Rambo-esque headband worn by the heros in the games' earlier installments.


Also of interest is how the title of the American NES game was shortened to "Super C".
The most logical explanation is that Konami perhaps wanted to avoid any connection to the Iran-Contra scandal of the 80s, where American supplied various military supplies to Iranian terrorists.
Super C came out in 1990 and the Iran-Contra affair was pretty much over at the end of President Ronald Reagan's term in 1988, but perhaps Konami was simply playing it safe.


"Contra" is also a kind of folk dancing, as it turns out. Uh...yeah.

[MacDeath]

Bill "Mag Dog" Rizer and Lance "Scorpian" Bean.

Rice and Beans, those japaneses are crazy.

[mgman]

Contra is also some sort of real-estate type of thing.

Contra's reference to the guerilla Contras is indeed intentional.

Bill Rizer and Lance Bean are references to actors from the film, Aliens:
Bill Paxton
Paul Reiser
Lance Henrikson
Michael Biehn

The pronunciation is the same.

Also of interest is the storyline according to the manuals of the Gryzor ports. To them, there is only one hero and he's Lance Gryzor.