Quick question on Renegade/Target Renegade graphics

[STE86]

how are u going with this?

if nothing else this is interesting to me from a professional point of view

Steve

[sigh]

I've animated the punches and the back kick. I'll be animating the uppercut tomorrow. After that, I'll go onto the throw and the move when he pummels someone on the floor. These are the last troublesome ones! I really hope i can fit all the legs on one sheet 16kb sheet and all his torso/arms on another 16kb sheet.
This would leave 32KB for enemy torso's and weapons. 64KB.
I'm hoping that I can borrow another 32kb from the 128K for backgrounds and sound effects.

[STE86]

not wishing to rain on anyones parade, but have you taken into consideration the volume of data tables it will take in RAM to piece together all those bits of sprites?

i am not sure but you may find its more K's worth of X,Y and item data in tables plus cpu time to composite them back together again than its worth in what you are actually going to save.

i can easily see the point of making the legs "generic" and compositing torso and legs for different sprites (I have used this method for defining graphics on games i was involved in "back in the day"). I think you may be better off just doing that and maybe using compression (run length?) on the data.

whichever way you can make this work, i do wish you the very best of luck with it, i will keep watching because i really do like what you have designed so far.

Steve

[sigh]

Yes. I have been taking this in consideration and there's been quite a good few discussions this thread of RAM vs CPU processing. The thing is, it's hard to know much until it starts being developed. So from the points, help and suggestions given by programmers on this thread, I was told to carry on as is and sort out the problems as they come. So I will just aim to get the poses and rhythm of the animation looking good in the beginning,which will then be easier for me to make changes that the programmer wants. (I'm trying to be very "programmer" aware as much as possible.)

[sigh]

Okay. I have 6 more animations to complete:

Pummel enemy on floor.
Use weapon 1 (swing hit type - 4 frames).
Use weapon 2 (overhead hit type - 4 frames)
Block/Dodge (1 frame each)
Pick up object (2 frames)
Throw object (1 frame)

Once these are done, that will be the complete animation set for all the player characters and the enemies. (Apart from the boss sprites and female enemies)

This means that I hope to be starting the background tiles soon. I just wanted to ask what the consensus is on flipping tiles. As the tiles are sprites themselves, would that also need some sort of conversion array similar to the mirroring of sprites?

[arnoldemu]

Yes. I have been taking this in consideration and there's been quite a good few discussions this thread of RAM vs CPU processing. The thing is, it's hard to know much until it starts being developed. So from the points, help and suggestions given by programmers on this thread, I was told to carry on as is and sort out the problems as they come. So I will just aim to get the poses and rhythm of the animation looking good in the beginning,which will then be easier for me to make changes that the programmer wants. (I'm trying to be very "programmer" aware as much as possible.)

I'm very interested in this project too and would love to be the chosen one to develop the game.

[arnoldemu]

This means that I hope to be starting the background tiles soon. I just wanted to ask what the consensus is on flipping tiles. As the tiles are sprites themselves, would that also need some sort of conversion array similar to the mirroring of sprites?

Yes the tiles could be mirrored using the same array as the sprites.

Mirroring of tiles may actually use more CPU time and so it may be better to use more ram.

I would suggest that once you have the tiles made to use an existing map editor to create the maps.

[sigh]

@arnoldemu

Thanks! I could definitely do with help as I can't programming for toffee! Any other programmers to make the work load lighter are more than welcome.

Regarding the tiles; I'll avoid the need to flip or mirror them.

[sigh]

Just want to check that I wouldn't have to make sprites with the weapons attached to the torso's? This would act as a composite right?



I think it might be better to have weapon only characters where when they are defeated, only then can you pick up the weapon. Not to sure how it's going to look when he's flykicking and back kicking while holding the weapon, but I'm sure one of those weapon frames will work.

I've also decided to scrap the "kick while being held" move. After animating and looking at it, it's pretty useless and a waste of ram space! Your more likely to want to shrug the enemy off than anything else.

[Xyphoe]

I've also decided to scrap the "kick while being held" move. After animating and looking at it, it's pretty useless and a waste of ram space! Your more likely to want to shrug the enemy off than anything else.

It's probably best to make as much graphics, moves and animation as possible so then the programmer can make the tough choices and cut out what isn't needed due to space later I would. If they have more to play with it might make a better end result as little tricks and shortcuts could be found here and there - who knows.

[Gryzor]

I really love those samples...

Just one note: in all the similar games I can remember right now, hit animation is like the one you have. Noone ever used a frame or two for the return of the character to his 'standing' position. So you have a great sequence up until the end of the move and then the hero/villain/prostitute/old man with a pool stick returns to the upright position rather abruptly... Maybe something to consider?

[arnoldemu]

Just want to check that I wouldn't have to make sprites with the weapons attached to the torso's? This would act as a composite right?



I think it might be better to have weapon only characters where when they are defeated, only then can you pick up the weapon. Not to sure how it's going to look when he's flykicking and back kicking while holding the weapon, but I'm sure one of those weapon frames will work.

I've also decided to scrap the "kick while being held" move. After animating and looking at it, it's pretty useless and a waste of ram space! Your more likely to want to shrug the enemy off than anything else.

I would say do it as a composite for the weapons too exactly as you have done.

[sigh]

@Xyphoe: Yes your right. That's pretty much what I'm doing. I was just thinking that from a gameplay point of view, the kick while being held isn't really that much use. Especially considering that the players energy will be depleting while being held. You could kick in Double Dgragon, Renegade and Streets of Rage, but this was seldom done. So I would use that space for something else like adding an extra torso here and there to make some animations look smoother.

@Gryzor: Yes, this is very true and I too would love to have an extra frame for getting back to the idle position, because it does need it. Going back to what Xyphoe said, I will do that and leave it to the programmer. (I've just been getting more and more RAM concious through out!)

@arnoldemu: Looks like I'm on the right track with these weapon anims. Thanks!

Okay people, here is the list so far:

                                                   FRAMES                                     Animated
General anims for both
player and enemy.



Walk      (posed)                            5                                               Done     
Knee     (posed)                             4                                               Done
Headbutt (posed)                          4                                               Done
Duck/pick up/get up   (posed)        1                                               Done
Stun      (posed)                             1                                               Done
Punch     (posed)                            6                                               Done
Uppercut  (posed)                          3                                               Done
Kick      (posed)                              3                                               Done
Fly Kick  (posed)                             2                                               Done
KO        (posed)                              3                                               Done
Being Hit (posed)                           1                                               Done        (needs tweaking)     
Being Held(posed                           1                                               Done           
Behind Hold (posed)                      1                                               Done             
Behind Held (posed)                       1                                               Done             
Being hit while held  (posed)          2                                               Done                                       
Being Grabbed (posed)                   1                                               Done
Being hit while grabbed (posed)     1                                               Done
Grab       (posed)                             1                                               Done
Throw     (posed)                             4                                               Done
Floor Pummel                                   6                                               Done
Shrug                                               1                                               Done
Use weapon 1                                 5                                               Done
Use weapon 2                                 ?
Throw Object                                   ?
Pick up object                                  ?           
Block                                                1
Dodge                                              1

Enemy moves specific moves:

Front Kick                                        ?
Being Kneed (posed)                      2                                     (yet to finish)
Being Thrown                                 5                                          Done
Being floor pummelled                    2                                          Done

...so there's quite a bit there with a lot of compositing to do. These are very similar sets in frames to target renegade/renegade.

For the enemy females - I don't really feel comfortable about them being kneed or floor pummelled. I know those moves were executed in the previous games but I think I might go for something like this which is cheeky, questionable but could be amusing and less brutal. It's from a fighting game called "God Hand". What was interesting was that he had a different set of moves when performing hold moves on the women. When he held male enemies, he would knee them in the face - however, on females he would spank them!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEcGqaoKTjM

Kinky - but I would prefer this than the knee. I haven't though what to replace the floor pummel with yet.
Like in the previous games, there will be a level where you fight women only.

edit: The animation list - some of these moves have more frames like the flykick etc. That list is a bit old!

[Xyphoe]

For the enemy females - I don't really feel comfortable about them being kneed or floor pummelled. I know those moves were executed in the previous games but I think I might go for something like this which is cheeky, questionable but could be amusing and less brutal. It's from a fighting game called "God Hand". What was interesting was that he had a different set of moves when performing hold moves on the women. When he held male enemies, he would knee them in the face - however, on females he would spank them!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEcGqaoKTjM

Kinky - but I would prefer this than the knee. I haven't though what to replace the floor pummel with yet.
Like in the previous games, there will be a level where you fight women only.

Haha! .. a bit sexist ... I did laugh though!

You know that does make me think that maybe the injection of humour and strange/new/funny moves and attacks could separate this from all the other bog-standard fighters. Why not make it as rediculous as possible - might generate more interest? Putting my 'marketing' hat on, often more shocking and attention/news grabbing things might attract interest from people not normally playing CPC games. Or make it very gory! LOL

[sigh]

Glad you laughed! Yes...a bit sexist and kinky but feels preferable than kneeing! I'm not to keen on the gore idea. I wanted the enemies to just be KO'd when defeated with stars around their head and then disappearing/running away rather than them dying (then disappearing...).
I don't want it to be too ridiculous as saturating the game with novelty funny moves, loses flavour pretty quickly. Seeing as the females have a humourous move, I may do one humourous move for the guys. I haven't designed the bosses yet so there could be something to play with, but I would keep it very minimal.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPkRaXfARDk

Little tid bit: While watching Renegade - I noticed that the Boss only comes on when there is only 1 type of enemy on screen on the first 2 levels. This means that you would never get a weapon guy + a non weapon guy + the boss on the same screen at the same time. But you will get 2 non weapon guys + boss, or 2 weapon guys + boss. On the third level however, you do get 2 different type and the boss, but I think that's because on the last level, there are only two types of enemies; knife wielders and the boss.

[sigh]

Been busy the last 2 weeks and only managed to get the block and dodge done. Managed to get the holding pose of lifting an object, which is currently a metal box. Still need to animate the actual picking up and throwing. Oh - and also the last overhead weapon animations. I'm thinking that at a later date, I may have to jig the colours around on the main character and give him a brighter jacket, but I'll see what happens when I start the backgounds.

Okay - back to (real life) work!

[sigh]

The actual box flying through the air animation I assume would be handled by code?
All the animation for the main character is now done. I'd like to get some sort of special move in that involves holding down the fire button and releasing. Maybe use the uppercut for that. Now I need to trace all the torso's for the enemies moves (well not all of them as they wont be floor pummeling or kneeing etc. Hoping that I'll get to have that done sometime next week.

Edit: Doh! I forgot I need to do the seperate attack move against the females. I'll leave them out for now and tackle those later....

[sigh]

I'm worried about the current colour of the character. I have a feeling that he could get a little lost in the backgrounds, so I'm going to brighten him up a bit:


...and here's an example of a special moving involving holding down the fire button and releasing:

I've animated three of these. The top one is when your holding a character. A different move is performed when a character is stunned and another different move is executed when just doing the move normally. All these are made up from different parts.

All the legs fit onto a 160x200 sheet with maybe 3 spaces to spare.

Now it's time for some enemy torso designs:)

Edit: Torso's for main character takes 1 sheet and a half...

[Gryzor]

Both the sprites and animation are first-class mate, I really love your work. This must be a very slow case of trial and error...

Regarding the character's color: keep in mind that he needs to look baaaaad, so dark colors like brown or black look better than pink or yellow...

That said, imagine the poor speccy folks with their "high-res" color clashing

[sigh]

Regarding the character's color: keep in mind that he needs to look baaaaad, so dark colors like brown or black look better than pink or yellow...

...this is what my sister said and likes the leather look far more, so I'm just going to leave it as is and just make sure that the bottom of the backgrounds wont use much dark colours such as brown, black, dark blue etc. I'll stick to the lighter colours for those areas. (That yellow jacket does look rather weak come to think of it...)

[MacDeath]

Pink is actually a badass colour...

[sigh]

...looks like Macdeath already found the secret mode!
 
  On another note, I've used 4 mode 0 sheets (64k) for all character   sprites including the enemy and weapons. Although the enemy designs   aren't completed yet, I just copied the torso and leg parts that some of   the enemies may be using, just to get an idea of how much space they   may take up. (I know I keep refering back to this point). I'm trying to   squeeze in a large torso character similar to Abobo in Double Dragon but   with fewer moves - if there is space. You wouldn't be able to grab or   floor pummel that enemy type. However, if it's going to have to go on   another sheet, I would scrap the idea and use what ever is left on the 4   mode 0 sheets for special effects like dust, swoosh lines, sparks etc.

[sigh]

Finished 2 enemy designs for the animation demo. In the middle of designing the big guy character, then will move on to design the first level boss. Designing the guys got me thinking on how they will appear on screen which also led to the question on scrolling. I know it's a talked to death topic, but it's usually in the form of shootem up games. I've been searching for CPC non shootem up games with smoother pixel scrolling. Double Dragon and Dragon ninja look as though they are scrolling at 4 pixels(though I could be wrong). Are there any examples of non shootem up games that scroll in 1or 2 pixels other than Tribute to Giana Sisters and the Contra demo?

Thanks

[Gryzor]

But.... show us, man!!!

[sigh]

But.... show us, man!!!

There you go:



These are all the enemies for the first level apart from the boss that I haven't designed yet and 12 colours are being used so far. For the larger character I'm undecided whether to use the white vest version or the bare chested version....

Edit: I tried to employ the pallete swapping idea to save on sprite space, but it left the sprites with little style or character. They need to look cool rather than just generic and I always felt that the renegade games did this well. I never really liked the enemies on games such as Streets of Rage or Cadillac Dinosaurs (apart from the boss characters) as some of them felt a little out of place at times (such as the jugglers on Streets of Rage.)