Quick question on Renegade/Target Renegade graphics

[sigh]

Cancel that. Reread the thread to find out you have discussed music. Sorry

Yeah, but we could all do with a high level summary once a week or so, just so people don't have to read through the entire thread.

??

[Gryzor]

This latest piece of animation looks really plastic. I love it! And yes, if the screen shook it'd be quite an effect...


Please, guys, if this ever gets finished, PLEASE do a commercial release!

[Munchausen]

Munchausen is also helping with the programming too:)

Yes, though I'm not really sure arnoldemu needs my help as I'm still a rookie with the CPC, and he is, well, he is arnoldemu! I've been really wanting to do a project with my favourite machine, and sigh's graphics are astounding so I'm happy to help where I can. I've got another project in the works that should be a nice warm up for this one too - while so far z80 programming is straightforward (by day I work with x86 assembler), the other parts of the CPC still confuse me frequently enough.

I'm very close to giving arnoldemu and Munchausen an animation demo of how the game will play, but I need to make sure I give them EVERYTHING that can happen in the game, which is what the first level will demonstrate. This will also include the title and menu screen(which I have been working on), so we have a complete understanding of how the whole game will function.

I dont want to give the programmers any nasty surprises half way through the creation, which is why the design must be clear and thorough from the beginning.
The clearer my design - the less headache it will be for all involved.

Games should be fun to make, not a chore:)

Awesome!

[sigh]

Been working on the animated demo which has also been helping me fine tune the game mechanics. Funnily enough, simulating the 2 wide pixel scrolling, along with the sprite walking has been really tricky to get looking right! I've messed it up on the first 2 screens of the background, but will aim to get it correct when it scrolls onto the new screen.
I'm really looking forward to putting on the sound effects for the demo which I'll take from some amstrad games.

Music:

One thing that I'm questioning is the music for the game. I had hummed many tunes into a recording device that sounded sort of rocky/funky, but the game play pacing so far seems a little slow for that type of music to match. This made me realise that with the sort of background design and moveset, it needs something different as in order to provide the right atmosphere for the game.

I decided to play some game tracks over the animation as guide:


YEAH!
Target Renegade - works really well.

OKAY(ISH)
Double Dragon 1 and 2, Combat Tribes

NOPE!
Renegade, Streets of Rage series, Undercover Cops,

So I've been trawling youtube for soundtracks and instrumentals to find "scary/eerie" music. There's been some interesting dark instrumentals from, rock, hip hop/grime and some dubstep. I dont think that "one" particular type of music is going to fit with the whole game and it may have to be level dependant.

For the demo, I'll be using an instrumental track. Although it wont be a 8 bit, it will at least set the tone of the for that particular level as well as the game.

[sigh]

Okay. Here are some examples I've been digging up:

Go to 0:30



Regarding this particular track (and most of this type of music in that genre) they're very "loop" orientated. I really would like to avoid having the music looped as it doesn't really tell a story when created in that way. I also wouldn't want the music playing continuously through the level as this spoils the atmosphere. This track does have a good eerie tone to it.

This is what's really good about the first stage and second stage music of Target Renegade on the CPC, as they're not really looped, though regarding the first stage it's definitely out of synch when compared to the Spectrum version.

The tension on the second stage is my favourite as there are parts when the music stops playing completely and the only sound is the punching and kicking. Not too sure if this was intentional but it's such an eerie moment. The Spectrum version plays the track all the way through. I much prefer the CPC version because of the empty space that comes in and out. It would be great to get a structure in the music tracks where there is full on music, then some quite moments where the music is subtle and then completely empty space where there is no music at all, iin all the tracks.

Go To 3:17 for a brilliant example of this on the second stage of Target Renegade. It incorporates all of these. The music stops playing at 3:47 then comes back in at 4:05 but quietly. Then empty space again on 4:50, then it comes back in again on  5:13 but this time with the bassline. Really cool structure!

[Gryzor]

I don't think you need something scary/eerie - this is not Ghosts'n'Goblins, is it? More like gritty, however this translates into music


[Edit] oh you posted some vids, let's watch them

[Gryzor]

Target Renegade had the soundtrack spot-on. I always loved it. Oh yes, that's gritty


The first video music is a nice tune (Halloween-inspired, no doubt), but again I don't see it fitting the atmosphere...

[sigh]

Target Renegade had the soundtrack spot-on. I always loved it. Oh yes, that's gritty


The first video music is a nice tune (Halloween-inspired, no doubt), but again I don't see it fitting the atmosphere...

Hmmm. The Target Renegade feels more eerie than gritty to me. A Skrillex track has a gritty feel about, but I think that sort of composition may be too noisy for what I'm after.

But yeah - this ain't Ghost n Goblins! 

[Gryzor]

Maybe it's a definition issue? "Eerie" is supposed to be "strange" and "scary"; I don't think TR is neither?

[sigh]

Maybe it's a definition issue? "Eerie" is supposed to be "strange" and "scary"; I don't think TR is neither?

Isn't eerie more "unsettling" than either of those?

Well - I'll change the term to "unsettling" music instead

[Gryzor]

That was actually Google's definition (it doesn't name the source, but I think it's accurate enough).


Unsettling is, I think, a superset of 'eerie'. Unsettling can also be a set of tones and notes, not even a tune, whereas (for me at least!) eerie necessarily involves the supernatural. Dunno, maybe it's the movies I watch

[redbox]

Well - I'll change the term to "unsettling" music instead

I think it depends on where and when the game is set.

For example, New York in the 80s would sound awesome with some Public Enemy type music.  LA in the early 90s would suit some kind of more rock music etc etc.

[sigh]

Being that I'm based inthe UK, it has more of a european vibe. I'm not really bothered by the music matching the setting (well..I am to a certain extent), but more matching the gameplay. For instance, if you open up 2 versions of youtube, one with the gameplay showing Target Renegade and the other with a piece of music from Double Dragon.
If you switch off the music on TR and watch it with the DD soundtrack - it doesn't match the pacing of the game. So I think that the pacing maybe more important than the setting itself?

But we'll see when I finish animating the demo.

[redbox]

Being that I'm based inthe UK, it has more of a european vibe.

I said New York as an example because Renegade is really the game of the Warriors film, but unofficial of course. And I love the music in the game

And yes, pacing is crucial and a very good way of thinking about it.

[Gryzor]

Haha, I was thinking of Public Enemy myself last night (listening some Anthrax because of the other thread and MacDeath, then a collab they did with Public Enemy, then Can't Truss It... ). But by the time you have converted it to a chiptune I wonder how much of the initial style will be left...

[sigh]

Working on the animated gameplay demo and it's going well.

I'm about to animate the second part and it's bought up 2 questions on scrolling while the sprite is moving:


1) In a 2 player game, which character has the priority in regards to activating the scrolling? Is it one or both?

2) Can the background scrolling be a different frame rate to the sprite speed? Currently the whole game demo is running at 25FPS, but due to the backgrounds 2 wide pixel movement, the background moves really fast when they are walking and needs to be slowed down. Here is the current speed:

25FPS. 2 wide pixel scroll



Here is the background scrolling at 12.5FPS with the sprite still at 25FPS:



....and here is the speed of the background I would like to have moving at 18FPS. The sprite would still need to animate at 25FPS.




If the top animation was to be used. Then I would have to remove the walk entirely and replace it with a run animation.

The anim in the middle with 12.5FPS scroll is my least favourite.

The last animation is a good compromise between scroll speed and smoothness. If it's possible to mix a 25FPS sprite on a 18FPS scrolling background then that would be good.
However, if all the sprite animations also needs to be 18FPS, then for walking, jumping and dashing animations, they look okay at 18FPS, but the fighting moves look horrible and slow! So - would it be possible to leave the fighting animations at 25FPS and only have the walking, jumping and dashing at 18FPS?
The reason for this, is if the player decides to execute those particular 3 locomotion moves while scrolling (which they definitely will) then it will match the frame rate of the background.

If this is too complicated, then I will settle with the top animation and replace the walk animations with a run cycle instead.

[redbox]

I think the second one looks best, and it should (?!) be easier to program if the background is 12.5fps and the main sprite 25fps (background once every 4 frames, main sprite once every 2).

Nice transit van btw

[Devilmarkus]

I also most like the 2nd result...

[sigh]

I think the second one looks best, and it should (?!) be easier to program if the background is 12.5fps and the main sprite 25fps (background once every 4 frames, main sprite once every 2).

Nice transit van btw

I also most like the 2nd result...

Really? The second result is my least favourite. (But it seems to play more smoothly in the browser for some reason)

Dynamite Dux. This speed is the same (I think) as the first scrolling test:
Go to 00:40

It's fast,  but as it's really smooth and it makes the whole movement of the game feel fluid.

Here is Dragon Ninja. I think that this is using the second method with the background scrolling at 12.5 FPS.
Go to 03:25

When the game isn't scrolling the sprite movement feels smooth. When it starts scrolling, the game feels less fluid than Dynamite Dux and slightly sluggish.

Here is Double Dragon 6128. Everything is moving at 4 wide pixels, but as there isn't a "long" stretch of scrolling from one part of the screen to another, it doesn't feel like the pixel movements are distracting, but it's not the smoothness I am looking for.
Go to 01:10


Lastly we have Renegade which has no scrolling, but sprite movement is perfectly fluid:


I'm leaving out the Double Dragon scrolling as it's not what I want to see for this game. Also, the Dragon Ninja method is smoother than the DD method. So I will be concentrating on the other 3:

Dynamite Dux: The problem using this method, is that the level will be over  too quickly!
However this could be remedied by having a decent amount of enemies per level in order to space out the scrolling and give balance to the pacing.
This scrolling speed will effect the feel of the game dramatically as it will now feel like a "fast paced beat em up".
Stage 2 of Target Renegade has roughly 16 enemies on the whole level and depending on how good you are, the player can complete it at around 2 and half minutes.

Dragon Ninja: With this method, I just feel that the overall experience would feel choppy. I'm not to sure I would be happy about using this method.

Renegade: Desperately want to avoid the whole flick scrolling method. However - Flick scroll vs Dragon Ninja scroll....not to sure which is preferable.

[Rhino]

Hi sigh,

First of all, congrats for your great work.
I have also heard that arnoldemu is working on the code for this project, which is a guarantee of quality.

Let me some comments about the scroll:

The first option is the best without question (25fps for all). The scroll is a bit fast, but smooth. Considering that this kind of games does not scroll continuously, a scrolling speed slightly faster than desirable is not a big problem. Note that games with scroll at 12,5/18fps there are many on CPC, while smooth scrolls are a rarity. On the other hand, the smoothness in the scroll (when scrolling more than 1 pixel wide) is more crucial than in other aspects such as sprite animations, etc ... because it affects almost the full screen. See a game with a smooth scroll gives a feeling of quality and smoothness to the whole game. Moreover, 2 wide pixel scroll at 25fps is the same speed as 1 wide pixel scroll at 50fps, which for a large screen area is not too fast.

About mixing different sprites and scroll speeds, this is possible, but should be planned so by the coder from the beginning.
I remember some Amiga games got a great result using this tech. For example, "Battle Squadron".



Your ship and the shots are at 50fps while the scroll and enemies at 25fps. In practice, you hardly notice that some things are less smooth than others, because precisely the elements that get you attention (your ship and shots) are those going smoother. And the scroll could not go smoother at 50fps keeping the same speed because it is pixel by pixel.

Not long ago, I did a test with something similar on CPC, where enemies and scroll are at 25fps and your ship and shots at 50fps with a great result.

Regards

[Rhino]

Other consideration about the scroll. If I remember correctly, games such as Double Dragon only scrolls forward: you are fighting in a zone without scroll, then you defeat the enemies, then scrolls slightly forward until new enemies appear, and again fighting without scroll, etc...

Something I do not like in a horizontal scrolling games is when I have little area of vision to where I'm moving. There are enough games with this problem, even some great games like Turrican.



You're not even in the center of the screen but a little further in the direction where you are moving. Why such big viewing area for what is left behind? I want to have more viewing about that is to come.

Going back to your game, scrolling at 25fps gives you the opportunity to improve this, because the character does not necessarily have to move at the same speed as the scroll. The scroll can go faster than the character so that the viewing area increases progressively in the right direction with its forward motion.

[sigh]

Other consideration about the scroll. If I remember correctly, games such as Double Dragon only scrolls forward: you are fighting in a zone without scroll, then you defeat the enemies, then scrolls slightly forward until new enemies appear, and again fighting without scroll, etc...

Something I do not like in a horizontal scrolling games is when I have little area of vision to where I'm moving. There are enough games with this problem, even some great games like Turrican.

You're not even in the center of the screen but a little further in the direction where you are moving. Why such big viewing area for what is left behind? I want to have more viewing about that is to come.

Going back to your game, scrolling at 25fps gives you the opportunity to improve this, because the character does not necessarily have to move at the same speed as the scroll. The scroll can go faster than the character so that the viewing area increases progressively in the right direction with its forward motion.

This is quite a tricky one to sort out due to the 2 player mode, as the players could be anywhere on the screen when it starts to scroll. I think in games like double dragon, you can walk in the opposite direction, then walk back again where the scrolling will then activate at a certain point in the screen.

The first option is the best without question (25fps for all). The scroll is a bit fast, but smooth. Considering that this kind of games does not scroll continuously, a scrolling speed slightly faster than desirable is not a big problem.

I'm leaning towards this one too. The thing is - I'll need to draw out more frames of animation for the run cycle as there isn't anything that I can re use from the existing set. Really not happy about that as this will mean an extra 4 torso's per character, but more importantly a new set of legs which could be around 8 frames in total. That's A LOT of new sprite parts to introduce and I'm already at the limit of the current sheets. I'm going to animate the runs tomorrow for all the characters and we will have to see if they fit in memory or not.

If it comes to the worse - I think I'd rather have them walk in the 25FPS background rather than the 12.5.

[Sykobee (Briggsy)]

It's very difficult, and you also have to consider the moonwalking effect - i.e., the foot that is on the ground needs to stay on that bit of ground, otherwise it will look like he is moonwalking.


So with a 2 pixel scroll, that means the foot on the ground has to move back at 2 pixels per frame.


You might be able to get away with a fast walk in my opinion, the player is likely to be in a bit of a hurry to do whatever his aim is in the game!


Shouldn't the foot that is further away a couple of pixels higher, because of the game perspective?

[sigh]

Shouldn't the foot that is further away a couple of pixels higher, because of the game perspective?

Yes it's a pixel higher. Anymore and it starts looking weird.

It's very difficult, and you also have to consider the moonwalking effect - i.e., the foot that is on the ground needs to stay on that bit of ground, otherwise it will look like he is moonwalking.

So with a 2 pixel scroll, that means the foot on the ground has to move back at 2 pixels per frame.

You might be able to get away with a fast walk in my opinion, the player is likely to be in a bit of a hurry to do whatever his aim is in the game!

Speaking of moon walking, I was looking at Streets of Rage on the megadrive.
The background looks as though it's moving at the same speed as the first background scroll I posted. Very fast, but the play background is quite big so it's not distracting. You can also see that the character moves faster than the scrolling:

Go to 1:40.



I roughed out a run, but there's something about having the characters run all over the place that I just dont like....

I've decided to continue with the 25FPS scrolling keeping the walk cycle.

[Rhino]

Of course, the 25fps choice must be confirmed by the coder, because that speed can be difficult to achieve depending on the amount and size of the sprites.

I guess arnoldemu has given the green light about it. Would be possible to talk to Kevin about the sprite painting techniques he plan to use?