R-Type X CPC

[Leonie]

I think 128k cpc would be good, because really we need more good cpc games to show it can be done on cpc.

YEAH! 
We still have to prove what you can tickle out of the gorgeous Amstrad/Schneider CPC.
It´s still "History In The Making"!
In the beginning there were Speccy-Ports...
...the opera ain´t over until the fat CPC-Lady sings. 

[TFM]

@MacDeath: Thanks for the Biohazard link. It really looks quite interesting, and it's something different. Yes, Forgotten Worlds is quite good on CPC. However, I think we can do way better. Let's find out what the CPC can do :-)
I'm fine with both horizontal and vertical scrolling. The question is 4 ways or 8 ways. Using Overscan, 8 ways becomes consuming quite a lot of cpu time, but it's still possible.
If we use the Plus, this will be another world. Commercial Plus Games (up to now) only use few features of this wonderful machine. I would like a Plus version, but I'm a bit scared, that only few people have one. Hmm...

@Arnoldemu: Yes, things will take a long time :-) But hey, it's our hobby not our job. And if we can get a good team together and everybody does a part of it, in an well organized way – I think it really can work out. And since we all want to finish someting else first... there is enought time to plan that project well.

@Leonie: I agree totally :-) Are you good in making songs for the AY?

About the RAM, think 128 KB will be the minimum. We will use probably 32 KB screen RAM (even without overscan, but with pixel-scrolling or parallax scrolling f.e.). And today nearly everybody has a 6128.
After finishing IT, we still can downgrade it to 64 KB machines.

[MacDeath]

Perhaps to all who want to start gamremaking, I found this on the web ;
http://www.emunix.emich.edu/~evett/GameProgramming/

there are PDF with a lot of interesting stuff to really know when dealing with gamemaking.

(http://www.emunix.emich.edu/~evett/) the guy seem to be teacher in a USA university... a lot of "courses" related to what we are dealing.


Concerning the sales with a commercial PLUS project, don't forget all the collectionners with GX4000... they are glad to pay 50€uros for anything, so...
If we can find 1 component capable of emulating an ACID and housing 512Ko of Rom...why not then...


Yet I believe Amstrad screwed the PLUS range in that it wasn't released with a standard of 128Ko RAM...
so strange, after all even the Amstrad's speccy were all 128K...

I hate those speccies!

I'm fine with   both horizontal and vertical scrolling. The question is 4 ways or 8   ways. Using Overscan, 8 ways becomes consuming quite a lot of cpu time,   but it's still possible.

Well, a Biohasard clone doesn't have to put really diagonnal scrolling,n just getting to horizontal and vertical may be enough...
the 8 direction I mentionned is mostly for the shooting system.

It just take a bit more sprites, but can be actually well managed.
Biohazard battle for exemple is simply a R-Type like vessel (1 sprite) and a sort of shield that you can direct.
Such shield doesn't have to get frames for each directions, but can be round sprite and just move around the main sprite, concerning the fires, well...it's also not that much a problem...

We just have to get inspired by such games/gameplay, not cloning in Arcade perfect, which a CPC or a PLUS would never achieve.

And Forgotten world shown us a game on CPC can actually be a neat arcade port, with sweet graphics, nice scrolling, and a 2UP coin-op mode...

And only with a CPC464 ! So yes it can be done even better.

[redbox]

I would think there would be merit in a Plus version just because I think no-one has still quite nailed it with the ASIC yet.

I agree with MacDeath about the '16-bit' feeling - a few games have got close, like Pang, but not one has got there yet.  I want something to show my C64 friends which makes them cry 

I think Star Sabre pretty much pushed the limits of a horizontal shoot-em-up on the classic CPC, so it would be niced to see what the Plus can really do.

But then again, not everyone has a Plus so the people working on the project might be reduced...?

[ukmarkh]

I recently sold my copy of 'Copter' for the GX4000, over 750 people viewed my page, and I had 39 bids and 207 watchers. The GX4000 has a serious following. 

[Leonie]

I want something to show my C64 friends which makes them cry.

"Cry" is not enough!
We have to drive the C64-Freaks into suicide. (ideally all of them)
To achieve this aim we need more new High-Quality-State-Of-The-Art-Games for the CPC.


PS:
I´m dreaming of a new game with Rotovision (Mission Genocide).
A lot of people say: "The scrolling of Mission Genocide is fine, the game itself could be better"
So we need a new vertical shooter with Rotovision, improved graphics and gameplay.

[Leonie]

@Leonie: Are you good in making songs for the AY?

I´m a musician who normally works with Midi-Sequencing, Synthesizers and Sampler.
I´ve done millions of Amiga-Mods too.
To write some music for the AY, I still need time to warm-up with Starkos, then I can deliver really good music.

[Gryzor]

...and? how much did it go for??

[ukmarkh]

...and? how much did it go for??

Can't remember, but do remember spunking the money up the wall   

[mr_lou]

I´m a musician who normally works with Midi-Sequencing, Synthesizers and Sampler.
I´ve done millions of Amiga-Mods too.
To write some music for the AY, I still need time to warm-up with Starkos, then I can deliver really good music.

Cool! Another musician. 
What was/is your handle? Are your mods online at modarchive.com? Or where can I listen to some of your stuff?
Maybe you would be interested in throwing your music online at www.IndieGameMusic.com
I've put my old mods there + midi stuff and mp3 files, and makes a few euro every month that way.
Looking forward to hear some of your stuff, midi or mod or mp3 or sks. 

[MacDeath]

The problem when dealing with Amstra's AY sund : 3 channels is few.

And what Starlos did with Dead on time is good : using only 2 Channel so you still have a free one for the sound FX.

Also the AY is somewhat limited with its sounds textures compaired to an Amiga...yet I like its Bass sound.




But if you have already done some Midi, programming the tunes is like this.
I gave the new Starkos a try to see how it looks like, but I don't know how the instrument editor works...


As we know, many CPC games simply skipped the music because they were limited to 464 version.
But I think also because when the game slows down, the music too, which can really be anoying.

Yet perhaps getting some music running only sometimes, when dealing with a boss per exemple or as a jingle at the start and end of the level...
Also in between levels at cinematic sequence.

Concerning the PLUS collectionners : a ll the people I saw at Madrid did pocess at least 1 or 2.

But yeah the bulk are the possessors of GX4000 as it is a sought after console by console collectionners, who are more numerous than computers collectionners and would spend more money on genuine cartridges.

Yet I don't know what were the result of our research concerning the ACID emulation/cloning, but the Ideal (in the case of a Game cartridge that is to be sold) should be a 1 chip only solution, if this is possible.


are there some component enabling CPU capabilities AND having internal ROM like memory ?

What is the price to get a production of custom chip ?

[Gryzor]

Concerning the number of channels: I liked the games that used all three channels for music and interrupted the tune for sfx...

[mr_lou]

Concerning the number of channels: I liked the games that used all three channels for music and interrupted the tune for sfx...

I like that method too, but it has to be done properly. I.e. interrupt the channel that's playing the notes that's least apparent.
For Dead on Time there are sound-effects all the time, so in this case it's fine to only use 2 channels for music. You'd hardly hear the 3rd channel anyway. 

[TFM]

MacDeath: I agree, but about Forgotten Worlds, the only thing I dislike ist the not-smooth scrolling. Anything else is fine – even gorgeous!

Redbox: We have some ASIC experts here :-) Thrust me :-) So the Plus would be a good idea, but let's see what the majority of people thinks, who will finally really contribute to this project.

Leonie: Take your time to warm up, no need for a rush! But what we miss a bit IMHO is indeed somebody able to make tracks for games.

About ACID: If I remember right, it was cracked from somebody in the other ACID thread.

About Sound: Let's use options, Sound, FX, Sound & FX. IMHO all channels should be used for the Sound, the FX will be overlying. Hmm. Ok?

[MacDeath]

concerning sounds... a solution is of course to ask if players want music or not.

In this case it may even be possible to get alternative soundtracks/FX...

If I remember well, Head over Heels (perhaps one of the best 80's production on CPC...) featured a well done menu with ability to set the levels of number of sound effects/music jingles.

Exemple :

Music : Heavy, Lite, mute.
FX : Heavy, Lite, Mute.

The level chosen may per example set the number of channel you would use.


Heavy = 3
Normal = 2
Lite = 1
Mute = 0...something like this...

Just as in modern games where you can easily set the level of music or sound effects, or even tell if you want the cinematics or background sounds (in games like World of Warcraft...)


But it's just an idea put there, I don't know if it is difficult for a coder to achieve this.
Nor if we can gain some CPU ressource thx to this...

Also often, the sacrified channel is the drum part...
As was done in Dead on time.
It is a good way to use the fire sounds to provide the drum effect then, so the whole game may be in time with the beat of the song/tune per exemple...


BTW, if a coder has a working engine he shall tell us the specifications he wants (limitations) for gameplay and design...

[arnoldemu]

BTW, if a coder has a working engine he shall tell us the specifications he wants (limitations) for gameplay and design...

I've got a couple of games that will need some help.

[rexbeng]

Hi! The "R-Type X" sounds great!


Here are some ideas from me.


The 4:3 overscan looks a bit dated. Maybe you should consider a widescreen (16:9) format, a 384x216 (192x216 in mode 0 pixels) which would look much better for a horizontal shooter and maybe you could even preserve some memory that way.


Also I don't think you need a 4-way scrolling model for an r-type clone. Or at least not all the time. If you cleverly use the background and sprites, you have enough room. Plus, maybe you can have areas in which you can have a static background in half the screen and move only the bottom or top (like Feffesse did with Xyphoes Fantasy).


The big challenge would be the different weapons. I don't know how you could use the CPC Plus' range of sprites to reproduce effects for the various beams, explosions and so on, but the C64 version did a good job with these. I just know that the easiest part would be to have the huuuge end-of level bosses: remember Face Hugger's attempt on a Gryzor/Contra clone? The final boss of the demo stage was so huge and felt really true to an arcade!


Anyway, i'd love to contribute with graphics for a shooter, so you can count me in if you need help on that part 

[TFM]

Yes, we will have a menue, and the player will be able to decide between Sound, FX and Sound_&_FX.
The idea with alternative soundtracks is great! They also can be selected by accident, so there is the element of surprise for the player.
Further this allows the differentiation between heavy, medium, light, muted sound levels (if selected in menue).
If we use Starkos it shouldn't take much cpu time. We should be very nice to Leonie now, then we get good music ;-)

About the overscan / screen format: Well, first we should decide IF we want to use overscan or not. Then we can decide which formats are well. The ideas from Rex are great, widescreen indeed would give an special touch.
However, with overscan the number of enemies will be limited, due to the fact, that it costs more cpu time to move sprites in an overscan screen than in an 16 KB screen. However some enemies may be only located in one of the 16 KB screen blocks, when using overscan. So we can gain some cpu time again.
The static background idea is indeed great, let's use it for the middle part of some levels, they can contain f.e. also a starfield or what ever, as long as most of it is static. Now we can see, 128 KB is minimum.

About the weapons... If we do it for the Plus, well, we have to use Hardware- & Software-Sprites anyway!

What do you think, is it time now for a poll, to decide:
- Plus or Old generation
- Overscan or not
- and and and... ;-)
- 3" disc or 3.5" disc with 0.7 MB format and a lot of levels

Or shall we collect some more ideas?

[ukmarkh]

Yes, we will have a menue, and the player will be able to decide between Sound, FX and Sound_&_FX.
The idea with alternative soundtracks is great! They also can be selected by accident, so there is the element of surprise for the player.
Further this allows the differentiation between heavy, medium, light, muted sound levels (if selected in menue).
If we use Starkos it shouldn't take much cpu time. We should be very nice to Leonie now, then we get good music ;-)

About the overscan / screen format: Well, first we should decide IF we want to use overscan or not. Then we can decide which formats are well. The ideas from Rex are great, widescreen indeed would give an special touch.
However, with overscan the number of enemies will be limited, due to the fact, that it costs more cpu time to move sprites in an overscan screen than in an 16 KB screen. However some enemies may be only located in one of the 16 KB screen blocks, when using overscan. So we can gain some cpu time again.
The static background idea is indeed great, let's use it for the middle part of some levels, they can contain f.e. also a starfield or what ever, as long as most of it is static. Now we can see, 128 KB is minimum.

About the weapons... If we do it for the Plus, well, we have to use Hardware- & Software-Sprites anyway!

What do you think, is it time now for a poll, to decide:
- Plus or Old generation
- Overscan or not
- and and and... ;-)
- 3" disc or 3.5" disc with 0.7 MB format and a lot of levels

Or shall we collect some more ideas?

It has to be made for the Plus, but also downward compatible for the stock CPC? I was showing this random guy at a show the games on an Amstrad Plus, and he said well that's all well and good, but I bet the old CPC can't run that game... I loaded it up on the old CPC and he was amazed. So for bragging rights, it needs to work on the stock CPC's also.     

[Leonie]

Old generation!
Each new game for the classic CPC eliminates one speccy port of the past.
So we have to write a lot of new games for the classic CPC.
Please remember: We still have to prove the world what a powerful machine the CPC is.
"Star Sabre" is a wonderful example of what we can tickle out of this High-End-8-Bit-Machine, especially compared to the CPC-games (shooters) of the past.
And there is still potential to exploit.
Ok, an additional Plus Edition could be a nice idea too.

[robcfg]

I think it's a plus that there exist an old generation version, but I'd like to see what a CPC+ is able to do.

[ukmarkh]

I think it's a plus that there exist an old generation version, but I'd like to see what a CPC+ is able to do.

I don't think the Plus can do anything that the CPC can't do, apart from a bigger colour pallette. Anyone who's ever dabbled at programming a Plus game will tell you how ludicrous it is to implement hardware sprites.

[Gryzor]

Definitely a Plus version. Backwards compatibility would be nice, too, but it's time the Plus got some lovin'...

And, of course, 3" releases are always magical

[TFM]

Well, seems like we have no consense here in common. So it may become a CPC Plus and Old
Generation game, which runs from 3" and 3.5". Hmm... guess finally the programmers / graphicans / musicians will decide :-) However there are a lot of different wishes. Will be hard to get them under one hat.

I don't think the Plus can do anything that the CPC can't do, apart from a bigger colour pallette. Anyone who's ever dabbled at programming a Plus game will tell you how ludicrous it is to implement hardware sprites.

Well, I already did a lot with the Plus hardware sprites. And they are not bad. You can use them more quick and more efficient than software sprites. Also the resolution can be 640*200 with 15 colors + invicible - which is not bad for games.
The Plus offers a good variety of gaming enhancements, like programmable scan line interrupt, enhanced interrupt managing, soft-scrolling, sound-DMA (even when it is not easy to use it) and an analogue port, which makes it easier to move a space ship for example.
However I hear the arguments of CPC old generation too. So finally there will be two verisons, probably.

[MacDeath]

Ok, an additional Plus Edition could be a nice idea too.

The problem is that most of modern CPC production fail to take account of the PLUS' existence.

I don't think the Plus can do anything that the CPC can't do, apart from   a bigger colour pallette. Anyone who's ever dabbled at programming a   Plus game will tell you how ludicrous it is to implement hardware   sprites.

I don't think the PLUS only offers a better palette.

Of course the HardSprite are somewhat frustrating : too little too late...
But they can still make a sweet addition, you just have to accept the fact that your game can't rely entirely on them.

But allthe extended interrupt capabilities, the DMA channels and upgraded hardwired scrollings are not only cosmétic additions...

The problem is that a PLUS needs to have 128K RAM, disk and/or Cartridge game to be properly used.
You simply cannot do a proper PLUS game if you rely only on the 464 config...

Also the resolution can be 640*200 with 15 colors + invicible - which is   not bad for games.

errrr... you mean 16x16 per sprite with pixels ranging from pseudo mode0 to pseudo mode2 I guess ?

You can use them more quick and more efficient than software sprites.

once in memory slots (inside the asic) they are easy to move, yet sluggish to reload so a fully hardwired sprites game simply cannot properly animate those (multiple animation frames)

the 16x16 pixel is somewhat a limitation : to small for well sized sprites in High definition, or too big and not enough numerous for mundane shoots sprites...

I wish the Plus also had some simpler Hardsprites for this purpose...
I mean 8or16 additionnal sprites in 3colours+transparancy (mode1) with perhap less zoom effects but faster to load...

We could use those...lol.