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Re: Bomb Jack remake [Plus offshoot discussion split]

Started by TotO, 18:44, 12 January 23

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TotO

@GUNHED Everything can be better on GX/Plus, it is not the same system.
It require to think the game for it, so it is no more CPC related.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

Shaun M. Neary

Quote from: GUNHED on 18:03, 12 January 23
Quote from: Cwiiis on 15:21, 12 January 23This is fantastic, really nice work - especially impressive to see this on the stock CPC... I was kind of considering Bomb Jack for a Plus remake at some point in the future, but here's someone proving that the Plus is totally unnecessary to do a good job :)
Right, the Plus is necessary to do a fantastic job.  :) So wait for the Plus version of the game.  ;)
What a silly comment. Pinball Dreams already disproved that.
Currently playing on: 2xCPC464, 1xCPC6128, 1x464Plus, 1x6128Plus, 2xGX4000. M4 board, ZMem 1MB and still forever playing Bruce Lee.
No cheats, snapshots or emulation. I play my games as they're intended to be played. What about you?

andycadley


Not everyone is quite up to Pinball Dreams standards of coding though.

Bombjack is one of the games I've had on my list of "arcade games that would lend themselves to the Plus hardware". Along with Green Beret and, for different reasons, Space Invaders. I think these are the sorts of games someone who wanted to learn game programming could try on the GX without hitting too many hardware limits or having to learn the kind of hardcore coding tricks necessary to do on an old school CPC.

That doesn't diminish from how great this is, but I'd like to see someone have a go at a GX native version of Bombjack too.

GUNHED

#3
Quote from: Shaun M. Neary on 10:57, 13 January 23
Quote from: GUNHED on 18:03, 12 January 23Right, the Plus is necessary to do a fantastic job.  :) So wait for the Plus version of the game.  ;)
What a silly comment. Pinball Dreams already disproved that.
You should see the Plus version. It's soooo much better!  :P ;D 8)
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GUNHED

Quote from: andycadley on 11:57, 13 January 23Not everyone is quite up to Pinball Dreams standards of coding though.

Yes, and it's even worse with 'Plus standards' sadly. At least the demo coders show the right way in this case.

If I wouldn't be super busy with coding of applications and OS stuff the I would love to do such kind of games. However, since a couple of years there seems to be a never ending flood of new games. Great thing btw.
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Jean-Marie

Quote from: GUNHED on 12:55, 13 January 23If I wouldn't be super busy with coding of applications and OS stuff the I would love to do such kind of games.
Incidentally, you got some news of your sisters ?  :D

abalore

Quote from: GUNHED on 18:03, 12 January 23Right, the Plus is necessary to do a fantastic job.  :) So wait for the Plus version of the game.  ;)

So I understand Alcon2020 is not a fantastic job  :(

norecess464

#7
Quotebut here's someone proving that the Plus is totally unnecessary to do a good job :)
I think the word "totally" is inadequate here in the context.

See Ghosts'N Goblins from @Golem13 :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ_9zTFwrJY
It's already proving how good the "pluses" of the Plus can dramatically improve the game experience.

I love the regular Amstrad CPC as much as I love the Amstrad Plus, and as @TotO said, it's 2 distinct platforms, even if it shares its lot of similarities.

While this preview of the remake of Bomb Jack for Amstrad CPC is already fantastic, a Plus version would probably benefit a lot from separate palette for sprites vs. background, instant loading, etc.



My personal website: https://norecess.cpcscene.net
My current project is Sonic GX, a remake of Sonic the Hedgehog for the awesome Amstrad GX-4000 game console!

GUNHED

#8
Quote from: Jean-Marie on 14:33, 13 January 23
Quote from: GUNHED on 12:55, 13 January 23If I wouldn't be super busy with coding of applications and OS stuff the I would love to do such kind of games.
Incidentally, you got some news of your sisters ?  :D
Well, I do not have sibling (alive). Maybe I didn't get the joke. Lost in languages.  :)
http://futureos.de --> Get the revolutionary FutureOS (Update: 2023.11.30)
http://futureos.cpc-live.com/files/LambdaSpeak_RSX_by_TFM.zip --> Get the RSX-ROM for LambdaSpeak :-) (Updated: 2021.12.26)

Sykobee (Briggsy)

A lot of the Plus advantage is having access to 512KB of ROM for each game which allows a lot of graphical variety that no 64KB game could ever offer. The enhanced palette and hardware sprites+scrolling are just (lovely) sugar on top.

(the same goes for the 512KB C64 cart games coming out these days like EOTB, except the palette is greys and muds still)

Prodatron

#10
Quote from: Sykobee (Briggsy) on 17:33, 13 January 23A lot of the Plus advantage is having access to 512KB of ROM for each game which allows a lot of graphical variety that no 64KB game could ever offer.
This isn't Plus specific. You can create a hardware "catridge", which is plugged to the CPC old-gen expansion bus, autostarts a game and provides tons of ROMs as well.

Quote from: GUNHED on 17:31, 13 January 23
QuoteIncidentally, you got some news of your sisters ?  :D
Well, I do not have sibling (alive). Maybe I didn't get the joke. Lost in languages.  :)
;D ;D  He is referring to an unfinished fullscreen game.


PS: Yes, this is very offtopic

GRAPHICAL Z80 MULTITASKING OPERATING SYSTEM

GUNHED

Ah, thanks I got it now...  :) :) :)

Well, it is what it is. As you know time is such a scarce good.  ;) :)
http://futureos.de --> Get the revolutionary FutureOS (Update: 2023.11.30)
http://futureos.cpc-live.com/files/LambdaSpeak_RSX_by_TFM.zip --> Get the RSX-ROM for LambdaSpeak :-) (Updated: 2021.12.26)

andycadley

Honestly if I had to rank Plus features by usefulness, the ability to do a Rupture style split essentially for free would rank first, then pixel scrolling, then sprites. Access to large amounts of ROM would be quite the way down the list.

Although all this Plus chatter probably ought to be moved off this thread, the work here deserves the praise more than this discussion attached. @Gryzor ?

TotO

While the fact to access a ROM cartridge is more useful than all the other features.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

GUNHED

It always depends what you want to do.  :)

Also there are two philosophies...

1. Decede to create a project, then see how it can be achieved

2. Look at what a particular hardware is strong, then create a project around it

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TotO

Raster int are more useful for demo, ROM for games and tools.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

Anthony Flack

Plus sprites would be hugely beneficial. I've never tried programming a Plus but 80% of the CPU time here is dedicated to the sprites. I know the Plus sprites are kinda stupid in that you can't just point them at the graphics you want them to display, but I'm sure it would still be much faster and easier and look better.

What feature is most useful depends on what the project is. Here it would be the sprites and the colours. And the rupture would be a convenience. 

But I don't have a Plus, I've never even seen a real Plus. And if I didn't think this would be possible or worthwhile to achieve on a regular CPC, I would have chosen something different. Something that fits more easily into 64k next time, perhaps. 

eto

Quote from: Anthony Flack on 23:26, 16 January 23And if I didn't think this would be possible or worthwhile to achieve on a regular CPC, I would have chosen something different. Something that fits more easily into 64k next time, perhaps. 
If it would be on a Plus, I would still like it and think it's great, but I would be less impressed. 

At least part of why it is SO impressing is because it is a stock CPC 6128. No Plus, no cartridge, just a plain CPC with 128K in Mode 1.

Anthony Flack

Yes I think part of the fun is choosing something that you think the system is only just barely capable of. For the Plus, a game like Ghosts n Goblins is a good challenge. I don't think a stock CPC can really do that game proper justice. There's a ton of mid-80s Capcom games that would be great for Plus machines.

For the stock CPC, there's still a lot of great arcade games from around 1981-84 that would port really well. Donkey Kong on the CPC is an excellent example of a game that's well-matched to the system's capabilities.

Anthony Flack

#19
By the way, having now spend a bit of time scrutinising the arcade game in detail, it was apparent to me that beyond the ripped graphics, Bomb Jack: Beer Edition on the Amiga is not particularly accurate. Certainly an improvement on the old Amiga version but from a casual look there are differences I noticed which I guess they didn't notice. The way Bomb Jack jumps isn't quite right. The way the bird moves isn't right (neither is mine yet). I was interested to see if they had got the bird behaviour figured out, but it's not even close. And the animation when you collect the bomb plays backwards! That's not important but it's a bit sloppy.

A good port is about more than just the hardware and graphics.

kawickboy

Considering CPC+/GX4000 enhancement could should bring us something similar to the wonderful unofficial MSX2 release:


TotO

It is a shame Amstrad as not offered to display 16 colours for "mode 1" on Plus/GX to match with sprites.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

andycadley

16 colours in Mode 1 would have required a 32K display, which would have been a strain on a 4Mhz CPU (the SAM Coupé struggles to manipulate a 24K screen with a 6Mhz Z80)

Furthermore the gate array would've needed to read twice as much data from RAM, which would probably have required significant redesigns. At that point the timing changes would probably have been better used increasing the number of sprites and letting them read image data from RAM.

rexbeng

#23
Would EGX work (edit: in the case of using it in a game such as Bomb Jack) on Plus though?

Cwiiis

Quote from: andycadley on 10:44, 17 January 2316 colours in Mode 1 would have required a 32K display, which would have been a strain on a 4Mhz CPU (the SAM Coupé struggles to manipulate a 24K screen with a 6Mhz Z80)

Furthermore the gate array would've needed to read twice as much data from RAM, which would probably have required significant redesigns. At that point the timing changes would probably have been better used increasing the number of sprites and letting them read image data from RAM.

People are already regularly using 32k displays for overscan screens - I don't think the CPU would've been an issue (well yes, sure, it would play into things, but there are many games (like Bomb Jack) where the screen is mostly static). Given the capabilities of the ASIC in the Plus, I don't think 16 colour mode 1 would've been much of a stretch. Definitely a missed opportunity, alongside the somewhat limited sprites...

More feasibly, the real shame is that the hardware sprites don't decouple sprite from sprite memory and don't provide v/h flip - both of those capabilities would've gone a long way in making things both easier and more flexible. Less feasibly, background priority would've been nice too, though I suppose would've had a considerable memory cost.

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