Antstream - cool or not? And some nice flame wars.

[Gryzor]

Speaking about the business model; I'm no expert in reading financial statements but things don't quite look rosy to me...

[lmimmfn]

Who is the audience?
- Older folk who love retro but hate(absolutely detest) ad's
- Younger folk who have 0 interest in retro but dont mind ad's
Umm yeah, i dont understand anything about the business model.


Watching people stream & beat hiscores in a stream i think is a fair use case, but regular folk? Meh

[Xyphoe]

I think what this boils down to is *how* people express their opinions, which is what Carn is referring to. And a few others.

No-one is saying you can't have an opinion.

You have free speech. And you are free to express that however you want. It however doesn't mean you are free from upsetting and  annoying someone, or have them reply back to you pissed off.

Some people here are failing to grasp and understand how it would feel for someone who worked on the game or excited for the game coming into that original thread for the first time. Then acting surprised when someone like YellowBelly goes 'fuck it'. When I first arrived in the thread my heart fucking sank. It was completely dispiriting.

As the thread went on and got worse, even my viewpoint shifted over to anger and I had to stop myself writing out something angry, and being all daft like 'fuck this place, never coming here again and recommending it'.

We have seen many examples over the years of new Amstrad games being announced on here for someone to start whinging about something regarding it, for the author to pack his bags and leave the scene after. Granted, those examples are few and far between and I have actually defended the CPC Wiki Forum in other places discussing this topic saying 'Honestly this is not a toxic place, let's just call this a blip that will hopefully get cleared up'. And this is of course not unique to this forum - holy shit take a look at some of the Amiga, C64, Speccy and Atari forums. I'd actually say this has been, certainly over the last few years, a very chill and supportive place. But I have received several DMs in private from people who used to develop games and used to frequent the forum along the lines of 'Sorry - this is why I left'. Which makes this 'thing' all the more upsetting because I live for new Amstrad games.

This is my first ever real Amstrad game that I will have been part of (doing the music). Whilst I didn't have any involvement in the coding and design of it (YellowBelly basically wen't "surprise! I've done a new Amstrad game and your character is in it!")
It just crushed all my excitement about it. That sucks.

So it's not about having thick skin to these things. It's about having the motivation to carry on investing many hours more into current or new projects if it feels like people are not going to be behind it. I want to start doing more music for more new Amstrad games. All of us creating Amstrad content are likely to be in our 30s, 40s and 50s with full time jobs, with families, that do it for the love of the Amstrad in what little spare time we have. Before anyone says it - yes later on it was clarified that people will support the .dsk version of the game but the damage was done and then people are locked into arguing back and forth with each other.

And so just like you can't stop people having an opinion, you can't stop someone feeling or reacting how they do. If you upset someone, whether you believe you're in the right or wrong, you've still upset them. How you handle it after is what matters. That thread DID upset a lot of people, many of whom are not registered here but have read it or just simply don't want to get involved with drama. You can't just put your head in the sand about that. And there will be many reasons why someone is annoyed, it's not just as black and white that it's because someone said 'Antstream sucked'. There will be annoyance at people's entitlement, or 'gate keeping' about how and where you should play your games, etc for example which is a whole other topic and bees nest I don't wanna poke. My viewpoint is people should be free to enjoy their games on whatever format, medium, service, etc they choose and it's not cool to shit on them for that or try to ruin their fun. (I'm speaking more generally here, not at specific people here.)

I think this is all a bit overblown and melodramatic now anyway, I hope it's a little 'storm in a tea cup' that will get resolved quickly enough. I hope.

However my bemusement throughout this has always been - you get to play it free on Antstream first (unless you have an account that is limited to gems and you've already spunked all your gems on other games - in which case you're already invested in playing Antstream.) But don't like Antstream? That's fine. You also get to play it for free on emulation or real hardware shortly after. What's the problem and issue? Well personally my issue was the extreme negativity to Antstream that to be honest - genuinely took me by surprise - that makes me, YellowBelly, and others look like right mugs when we've been telling them 'The Amstrad community wants Amstrad games on your service and they'll be behind this!' They DO, but perhaps it seems not on this forum. That's why I said, "this is not a good look here". Then I start to worry if they do see this they'll also go 'fuck it', because it IS an Amstrad coded game that they have to spend hours of work integrating into their system. Someone has to get paid to do it. On reflection, Antstream probably don't/won't give a flying fuck about this thread. But that niggled me. I'm only human.

re Antstream - I'm not going to get further involved discussing that here apart from to reply to Gryzor's post...

@Gryzor - I'll reply back to you and only you here when I have time.

[Gryzor]

That was a post making some nice points, actually. It's only 630 in the morning here so I'll reply later on.

[Shaun M. Neary]

Aw to hell with this shit.. it's 8am for Gods sake!... 

Let's get a couple of things perfectly clear here.

1) Not everyone likes Antstream for reasons perfectly outlined here by several people here. For some bizarre reason, they're still not good enough for those looking for reasons to be outraged. Fair enough, don't agree with them, but we're going around in circles to the point where it's looking like you're trying to sell horse shit to the fertiliser section of a garden centre.

2) Speaking of people easily outraged. Let's go back to Carn's quote shall we?

Literal?  About the Amstrad game thing?  Explain that then please.  Or Are you trying to say I thought he actually meant the game could go into a real ('fucking') bin?  Because I sure as heck didn't.  

Carn, if you're going to call me out. Fair enough. I'm always open to justifying my opinion (which I have done on more than one occasion on this thread), but what I have quoted in bold is EXACTLY what happened. I never said that. I said anything to do with the words Antstream Exclusive can get in the fucking bin. The term 'get in the bin' is something you clearly need to look up. It's modern speak for something (or someone) that is beyond annoying. Now just to make this *perfectly* clear for you, I find Antstream beyond annoying. Have we caught up? I never said anything directly about the game as, and I will say this for the final time, I haven't played the game so I don't have an opinion on it. However my experience of the initial platform it's being released on has been far from great and i'm not the only one who shares that sentiment.

If you didn't properly read (or research) what I actually wrote and choose to reply to *your interpretation* of one of my posts, that's nobody elses fault but your own.

And here's where we cue for the easily outraged to cry again. Off you go.


For the record, as someone who spent years being a music photographer. I'm used to my work being crapped on on a daily (not a monthly or yearly) basis. It's what happens when you create something from nothing. Some will get it, others won't. That's how the world works, deal with it.               

[Gryzor]

After having had some coffee, let's get to it.


Soooo yeah, that was another issue that arose in the thread: criticism against releases.


I don't think there's right and wrong here, and of course we're not the only community dealing with the issue. As a matter of fact, it seems that *every* indie creator is facing the same problem.


On one hand, you have people developing and giving us for free (or, if not for free, at a price that certainly will never recoup their time and toil) games or apps or hardware; especially for us, in a rather small and niche community, this is priceless. So when criticism arises, those devs are really and easily discouraged - "here I am giving you a horse and you're looking at its mouth?".


On the other hand, though, I never felt comfortable with the 'obligation' to heap praise upon each and every release and every developer. It just isn't possible that all releases are perfect or even good. Not offering some constructive criticism is just hypocrisy.


And for every DM you have received from people leaving the community believe me, I have received twice as many from people wondering "what on earth?" or "I tried apologising to him in private but who the heck does he thing he is" and stuff like that.


The thing is, developers more often than not take such criticism as a total dismissal of their work, and then drama arises; they react, and then other people react to an even higher degree, and the whole thing goes downhill. Artists/devs will satisfy their self-bias and insecurities (no dig against them, we all have them), while the other guys will just say 'oh fuck off with your shit' (which is the easiest thing to do when you're not the one that has been creating something out of love).


And of course there will be extremes - receivers who will enjoy tearing down the efforts of others (amazingly, the worst releases here have been received with utmost grace), and givers who think they are giving us the best thing since sliced bread and if we don't like it then fuck us, we're not worthy of Them.


It very much *is* about having a thicker skin, because it's pretty objective that creators are more sensitive about their work than the rest of the world is. And on the other hand, of course, it very much is about us realising that fact and being more gentle than we are with Cyberpunk 2077.


On a personal note, I've been criticised for a lot of CPCWiki failings, and sometimes I too, have thought "oh the fuck with it, got a life to attend to", but I never air these feelings; and those people criticising me, who are the very same people who create stuff or defend creators the next day, never stop to think about it. So do take note of that.


It's an unfortunate state of things, and I've seen it happening all over the place, and to be honest I'm not sure what the solution may be - or even if there is one. The fact that this is not something new (there *were* unappreciated creators before the CPC came along ) tells me there probably isn't one.


So I can only offer some advice - if people share something with the rest of us, be kind. I mean we mostly are kind, but try to be kinder. Be constructive and detailed. Be appreciative. Or maybe don't speak up, that's probably easier. If you create something and you receive criticism, try to be sensible about it; being a creator is always about exposing yourself to the world, and it's inevitable. If someone is being an asshole, ignore him - others are bound to appreciate your offering. But don't assume everyone is an asshole for criticising you.


In this case here, I'm baffled - there was NO criticism against the game, what can I say! I just tried to find it on Antstream (downloaded it to my Windows laptop; it just ignored the custom installation path I told it to use and defaulted to my smallish, C: SSD drive, so I wonder if anyone's tested the installer bit!). I didn't, so I assume it's not on there yet, but I digress. Nobody criticised a game we haven't seem, and thought it's been stressed a dozen times already I'll repeat it, the criticism levelled was against the platform of choice.


Gatekeeping? I'd argue that a closed platform of any sort is much more of a gatekeeping model than anything else. Or saying "I'll only give it to X and Y and those other guys over there can screw themselves", incidentally. Had it been clear from the beginning that the game would be released in the wild as well, this discussion would've gone much better, I think. If it was stated that "hey, I've been making this game, but because I have been preparing it to take advantage of Antstream features it'll take a while longer for it to be widely released" then reaction would probably be much calmer. Can't talk for others, but my comment would have been "ah this looks lovely, I don't use Antstream but looking forward to the dsk release!" or something like that. Same with the titles who are released first on physical and then given away on images.


Now, I do get your comment about this thread looking negative for Antstream and the consequences and all that, but why the surprise? I don't recall seeing any rave reviews of it here (or anywhere else to be honest, but it's not like I've been looking). And I do see the hope and effort put into the project that it could somehow turn things around. But from a consumer point of view, one swallow does not a summer make (or, as we say here -it's funny how some proverbs are similar across countries- one cuckoo doesn't bring spring). Antstream has been negative against the CPC from the beginning, and if this is a product development effort (puts marketing hat on) it's surprisingly half-baked. Maybe the help given has been great indeed, maybe they're going to give it a lavish promotion, maybe, maybe, maybe... But hey, you know what? You have 1200 titles in your catalogue (is it 1200 unique titles or do platform releases count as separate titles?) and you have found space for... ONE Amstrad release up to now, notwithstanding the fact that the CPC version of many of the titles you already have is the best. So don't pretend you're seriously considering the CPC scene until you do something serious about it - bring in a dozen CPC hits, or two dozen, or fifty. Do a promotion where new users can play the CPC versions for free for one month. Celebrate the XXth anniversary of the CPC and showcase its best titles. Do an April Fool's and serve the CPC version when a user tries to play the c64 version (*chuckles*). Do some "vs Amstrad" leaderboard competitions. Use a GT/CTM monitor frame for display. Offer a green mode. Address the issue that you purposefully ignored the platform from the very beginning. That's basic stuff. I should know, I've won several marketing awards.


The only reason I mention the awards here (not even listing them al, on my LI profile) is that like Shaun mentioned, I often get trashed at work for my ideas or my implementations; such is the nature of it. For every 100 ideas I implement, probably 70 of them follow safe, well-known paths, 20 are original failures and ten are original successes (if lucky) of varying degrees. And yet I still get criticised for those 10 brightest, best and profitable ideas of mine. There's no escaping it. So I just think "look at those awards! You're not stupid (...), let's see if there's something in this criticism I can use and let's move on!".


Those are my 2c. More coffee please.

[Xyphoe]

Well said Gryzor especially -

I can only offer some advice - if people share something with the rest of us, be kind. I mean we mostly are kind, but try to be kinder. Be constructive and detailed. Be appreciative. Or maybe don't speak up, that's probably easier. If you create something and you receive criticism, try to be sensible about it; being a creator is always about exposing yourself to the world, and it's inevitable. If someone is being an asshole, ignore him - others are bound to appreciate your offering. But don't assume everyone is an asshole for criticising you.

100% that.
And on the weekly AMSTREAMS we do (note - nothing to do with ANTstream, I'm cursed that the names look and sound similar!), when a new Amstrad game is released it's always the main feature on the stream and we're there to support it and get it noticed to a larger crowd. And I discourage people from being overly mean and critical. Plenty of places elsewhere to do that if you must. Though crap commercially released games from back in the day can be ranted about as much as you want!

I said earlier I would reply to your previous post, but I've decided not to and move on despite a few things I disagree with because this doesn't need picking apart and stretching on any longer. I won't do here except to respond one thing you said - this thing here isn't about having thicker skin. It all started under confusion and misunderstandings, so myself or others *had* to jump in to clear things up then it went off the rails. None of us were responding to criticisms about the game (if we disregard reidrac's comment which he's later explained, but personally I never talked about that). And if you remember it wasn't any of us involved with the project that posted and started the original thread either. Someone else did, beating us to the punch. One of us was planning to come in here and post our own thread about the game and what was happening with it in detail, where I'm sure there wouldn't have been any misunderstanding. The 'teaser' video was just a daft thing cooked up quickly for a bit of fun - but I've already apologised early on that it wasn't clear enough at the end. But it was just intended as a quick teaser, before more details get released... but someone was inevitably going to share it somewhere and it's our bad for not being more specifically clear in the vid. We're just incredibly busy and stretched right now.

Then again, the whole Antstream thing would probably have been trashed anyway so it likely would have kicked off regardless! But probably not to this degree. I'm not on here enough due to work/time/family constraints to know whether Antstream is a liked thing or not.

So yea, none of us are sensitive about the game here - we're not daft, I've not even seen it yet myself! Let alone played it. But I'm sure YellowBelly won't mind me saying that this is definitely *not* the next Vespertino, Pinball Dreams or Oscar Z!! It's going to be a pretty simple little platformer but with some cool features. And a lot of hard work. That's just been done for fun and learning. A springboard to bigger and better projects. We're not deluded about that or anything lol 
Honestly outside of our own communities I didn't think many people would give much of a shit anyway!

Lastly, I've been a long term supporter of the CPC Wiki and forum, when new people come in the Amstream or video comments on my channel asking where to start with the Amstrad, or where can I find information on xyz, etc I always point them towards here and tell them it's a great place and not toxic like other formats forums. There's even bot commands setup specific to CPC Wiki things. So Gryzor we've known each other for a long time now, I believe there is a mutual respect between us and I don't want that further damaged. You've done great work steering this site and forum for a long time now, which isn't easy I know. Maybe some moderation on that original topic would have helped though. That's just my feedback, and am leaving this with best wishes.

Oh and splitting the topics was probably the right thing to do, but just a suggestion - the old thread now looks a confusing mess especially to anyone new coming into it. It probably should be deleted and a new one started with fresh / full details. And this thread we're talking in now should probably get moved to the "Other Retro" section. But it's your call and forum of course. I just want done with all this now whilst trying to convince someone else heavily involved with lots of other new projects not to quit and leave the scene. 

Peace. <3

[Shaun M. Neary]

So yea, none of us are sensitive about the game here

I'm sorry but this is the one and only part of that post I disagree with.
If that was the case, the last three pages of backing and fourthing wouldn't have happened in the first place. That happened because most people from the Xy/YB camp completely overlooked the fact that our gripe was with the platform and not the game itself and just went on a tirade about the Wiki bashing the game.

A handful of people here griped and gave some opinions about Antstream
Your crew came in and overreacted.

Apart from that, well put.

[EgoTrip]

I've no problem with that, Ego, I really don't.
However I do have a problem with people whining out their ass just because they were butthurt reading an opposing opinion!

PS: I thought you left here a good while back after telling me to go die of cancer btw... nice to have you back.

Yes, that wasn't very nice of me, and I went too far. Obviously I didn't literally mean it, I am sorry for saying that to you.

[Shaun M. Neary]

Yes, that wasn't very nice of me, and I went too far. Obviously I didn't literally mean it, I am sorry for saying that to you.

Takes a hell of a lot to admit that. Apology accepted.
I too am sorry for overdoing it after that stream on this forum. The whole thing went way too far. It actually terrifies me to think all that went down almost three and a half years ago now!

[andycadley]

The Antstream thing: I'll admit I haven't really kept up with it since the original announcement because it wasn't a "pay for" service that I really felt I wanted to pay for (much as I love retro games I don't get to play as much as I used to and Dr Mario on Switch Online is about all I ever have time for). I'm not sure I see bringing all the "benefits" of Freemium games to retro platforms is a step in the right direction, but everyone has their own ideas on these things and mine aren't necessarily more valuable than others.


There is a certain ring of truth to the "sometimes developers need to get a thicker skin" though. Everyone wants to encourage people to develop things if they enjoy it and get as much out of the community as they can, but it's actually counter productive to only heap praise on every release. Sometimes you have to take a deep breath, swallow the criticisms for what they are, and not get into a massive flounce over it all. I've had some of my own stuff taken out of context and criticised heavily (on no less than Xyphoe's channel at least once!) and could have thrown the toys out of the pram, insisted I'd never watch again and dumped the community. But life's too short, I just accepted it and moved on, disheartening as these things may sometimes be.


TLDR: Be nice, get along. Life is too short.

[Gryzor]

Today I learned a new word, 'flounce'. I count that as a win.

Question, then: how many here are on Antstream? Why? If not, again why?

[Shaun M. Neary]

There is a certain ring of truth to the "sometimes developers need to get a thicker skin" though. Everyone wants to encourage people to develop things if they enjoy it and get as much out of the community as they can, but it's actually counter productive to only heap praise on every release. Sometimes you have to take a deep breath, swallow the criticisms for what they are, and not get into a massive flounce over it all. I've had some of my own stuff taken out of context and criticised heavily (on no less than Xyphoe's channel at least once!) and could have thrown the toys out of the pram, insisted I'd never watch again and dumped the community. But life's too short, I just accepted it and moved on, disheartening as these things may sometimes be.

The laughable part about all of this though is nobody heavily criticised the actual game, bar a comment on the sprites! They couldn't, nobody played it. We got a teaser video and watched it.
It was those involved in the game who came in and kicked up a stink about dumping all over the game when in actual fact, we were criticising the platform.

It spiralled way out of hand even before I properly got involved in the conversation. 

Edit: That's actually worrying for when they *do* get criticism when people play it then, isn't it?

[dthrone]

Today I learned a new word, 'flounce'. I count that as a win.

Question, then: how many here are on Antstream? Why? If not, again why?

I'd never even heard of it!  But I went on the website to check it out as a result of this topic so it just shows that any publicity is good publicity 

[CraigsBar]

I'd never even heard of it!

**Out of context alert**

flounce

verb (used without object), flounced, flounc·ing.
to go with impatient or impetuous, exaggerated movements:
The star flounced out of the studio in a rage.
to throw the body about spasmodically; flounder.
noun
an act or instance of flouncing; a flouncing movement.

[EgoTrip]

Today I learned a new word, 'flounce'. I count that as a win.

Question, then: how many here are on Antstream? Why? If not, again why?

I have games on, and coming to Antstream, both CPC and Spectrum. Simply because it's another way to get games out there, and having the CPC represented is a good thing is it not?


I will always make my games freely available on here, I will never go down the exclusive platform route. But I don't have any problem with what people choose to do with their own productions, it is their work after all.

[Gryzor]

Ah yes, if you're a game developer, that's a different story. Which games do you have? Because searching for "Amstrad" only have two results...

[Xyphoe]

The laughable part about all of this though is nobody heavily criticised the actual game, bar a comment on the sprites! They couldn't, nobody played it. We got a teaser video and watched it.
It was those involved in the game who came in and kicked up a stink about dumping all over the game when in actual fact, we were criticising the platform.

It spiralled way out of hand even before I properly got involved in the conversation. 

Edit: That's actually worrying for when they *do* get criticism when people play it then, isn't it?

No that is completely wrong.

At no point did I feel the actual game was being criticised.
At no point did I have to defend the actual game.

Only YellowBelly picked up on reidrac's minor comment briefly, and that was cleared up pretty quickly.

Otherwise the whole discussion there was about Antstream and the platform.
What was being argued about and defended was how we were releasing the game and Antstream.

Please do not try and distort this, and please - respectfully - stop trying to stir up drama and arguments again. It's over and done with now.

And if people don't like it when it's released that's fine. It's a simple game, we're not deluded. We're beginners at making games and we're not stupid. Whether you like a game or not is all subjective.
Referring back to Gryzor's comment about his job - similarly I've had many years of putting out music and songs, gigs and live shows, DJing clubnights, etc and shrugged off *lots* of horrible shit thrown my way. The YouTube channel and Twitch has over a thousand videos and live streams, and I get negative and shitty comments nearly on a daily basis. Don't be so daft and insulting, I wouldn't have done and continue to do all this if I couldn't take it.

[Shaun M. Neary]

I'm not trying to distort anything. I didn't say anything that didn't happen.


The game wasn't criticised, one piece of feedback about a sprite. FACT!
It was mostly against Antstream - FACT!
Yellowbelly overreacted - FACT!
You tried to push Antstream again and again ignoring concerns already aired - FACT!


If you need a reminder of that Al, feel free to go back through the thread. But just because you can't admit that you guys overreacted doesn't mean that wasn't the case. It was.


And to insinuate I'm the one stirring up the drama? That's funny considering the topic didn't get heated until your crew came in and threw your collective oar in.


With all due respect of course. Milk it because it's the last shred of respect I had for you.

[Gryzor]

Ok ok, let's all kiss and make nice now, shall we? I could add some comments myself, but I really feel it's been exhausted by now. All points are clear for everyone to see, no point in dragging on...

[Shaun M. Neary]

Fine by me, T. I've said my piece. I'm done on this thread. 

[Gryzor]

Cheers mate, have a good one🙂

[ldaneels]

Today I learned a new word, 'flounce'. I count that as a win.

Question, then: how many here are on Antstream? Why? If not, again why?

Well, to answer your question, I am on antstream because I really like the idea & I have a soft spot for 80s/90s computer games (mostly ZX & Amiga - CPC catalogue would be a huge boon, of course) and arcade shmups.


I also am weirdly attracted to frontends (Gamebase, Hyperspin, Batocera, Retropie,... I simply can't help spending inordinate amount of time on frontends) and that's where the issues arise with Antstream. I simply don't see the value of Antstream compared to free alternatives. Maybe if I was interested in achievements (Retroachievements does it better but is focused on consoles) and tournaments (I play to enjoy games, not compete) I could see some semblance of value.


Antstream looks attractive & I like the idea of a curated catalogue, but it is absolutely subpar. I won't belabor the points I & Gryzor made about useability & performance, but if they expect me to subscribe, I want something useable & offering a better solution than what is freely available (or at least on the same level). My main gripe (I could overlook performance issues) is the discoverability of games and as the catalogue keeps growing, this keeps getting worse.

The end result is that I am on Antstream but I almost never use it. I keep hoping (unreasonably) that things will get better but in the 3+ years since its inception, all I found is disappointment.

PS: I discovered that installing Antstream on EGS creates a new account, so going back to the standalone Antstream launcher, I got all my games history & favourites back. Wew! Fun fact: you can't buy gems (that I could find) on the Antstream launcher, it is only an EGS exclusive! But yeah, the EGS version is more than likely a sign of things to come...

[Gryzor]

My main gripe (I could overlook performance issues) is the discoverability of games and as the catalogue keeps growing, this keeps getting worse.

So it was not just my idea - I thought I was missing something obvious...

[ldaneels]

Seriously, this is surreal! How can they not see that simple fact. Nintendo catches a lot of flack (rightfully) for their eShop, but I find Antstream a lot less useable than this, which is really scary... And I contacted them multiple times about it (and a few other things), but I only got generic canned answers which gives me very little hope they're interested in improving that aspect.