Saboteur 2 mod

[ikonsgr]

speed 6 is my favorite   
And if one thing this remake proves, is how the huge amount of direct porting games from a vastly inferior machine like spectrum, RUINED the TRUE potential of cpc, resulting in large underestimation by hiding the fact of how MUCH more powerful 8bit machine , Amstrad cpc REALLY was...
if we only knew, back at the days... 

[andycadley]

speed 6 is my favorite   
And if one thing this remake proves, is how direct porting games from a vastly inferior machine like spectrum, RUINED the TRUE potential of cpc, resulting in large underestimation by hiding the fact of how MUCH more powerful 8bit machine , Amstrad cpc REALLY was...
if we only knew, back at the days... 

In fairness, the Spectrum version also runs quite a lot slower than it could have.

[ikonsgr]

In fairness, the Spectrum version also runs quite a lot slower than it could have.

This does not negate the fact that Amstrad CPC had vastly superior Hardware and potential than spectrum!
Due to cpc clever design, the 27 vivid color palette, the use of the decent AY sound chip and 6845 CRT controller, combined with proper programming , Amstrad CPC could offer MUCH better games in any aspect (graphics, speed, scrolling, sound, music)  than spectrum's versions, no matter how optimized these games would be on spectrum! I would dare to say that difference between games exploiting Amstrad cpc potential and spectrum, would be more obvious than comparing games between amiga and atari st!
The many excellent games produced for cpc in later years, finally freed from the... "spectrum portitis" disease, proves it undeniably! 

[thealfest]

@ikonsgr In fact, most of the slowness of saboteur 2 comes from the original Speccy version, all the Amstrad specific code is much better optimized, Maz Spork did a great job porting the game. Also, more complex hardware does not make the Amstrad a better gaming machine than the Spectrum. Both systems have their advantages and limitations, and which one is better is a matter of personal preference. Please do not start holy wars here and do not write toxic posts.

[poulette73]

Please do not start holy wars here and do not write toxic posts.

Be reassured. 
John is an old member, passionate, very serious and courteous, and well known on the forum. He is also the designer of several successful interfaces for the Amstrad CPC sold by the hundreds. 
He has rendered many services to hundreds of members, and has never been in any kind of conflict with anyone on the forum.

His comparison with Spectrum was simply made as constructive arguments, never with the idea of starting a conflict. 

[thealfest]

@poulette73 Personal opinion is not a fact or constructive argument. And it is offtopic.

BTW the original Amstrad port is about 20% slower than the Spectrum version. And currently the Amstrad version of my mod is almost 2x slower than the Spectrum one, simply because the tile size is 16 bytes instead of 9, and the cpu is slower.

[cwpab]

So these are my predictions of what we'll see on future updates based on what we've seen so far:

November the 5th: Mode 0 option added
November the 10th: Random Map Generation option added
November the 15th: 2 player co-op mode added
November the 20th: Evil Mode added where you control the bad guys

[thealfest]

@cwpab  Mode 0 might work for saboteur 2, but it means all graphics need to be redrawn and renderer rewritten. It also takes ~5k RAM (too much) and the game speed will decrease. Not my cup of tea.
And I don't plan to add any new features beyond those present in the original Amstrad port and my mod for Speccy.
Actually, most of the work is already done, now I'm fixing bugs and refactoring.

[ikonsgr]

@ikonsgr In fact, most of the slowness of saboteur 2 comes from the original Speccy version, all the Amstrad specific code is much better optimized, Maz Spork did a great job porting the game. Also, more complex hardware does not make the Amstrad a better gaming machine than the Spectrum. Both systems have their advantages and limitations, and which one is better is a matter of personal preference. Please do not start holy wars here and do not write toxic posts.

My friend, rest assured that i have GREAT respect for Sinclair Spectrums, in fact i'm a proud owner of a Spectrum +3 with Divide :-)
Sinclair Spectrum was the machine that showed to the world, what "home computer" is, it was introduced 2 years before Amstrad CPC, and sold many millions, much more than Amstrad CPC!
BUT, the fact that Amstrad CPC was a far better Computer than Sinclair Spectrum is an UNDENIABLY AND OBJECTIVE TRUTH!
Hardware speaks for it self my friend, the 6845 CRT controller (with many capabilities like hardware scrolling, also used on the 1st ibm pc too) , the 27 color palette  and the AY sound chip of CPC, compared to the primitive ULA (with the notorious attribute clash problem), the limited 15 color palette (which actually were 7 colors+7 half bright + black)  and the sound beeper of spectrum, are offering VAST superior sound+graphics potential and capabilities, and this is NOT a "matter of personal preference"!
Games like R-Type 128, Super edge grinder, Star sabre, Sub hunter, Relentless, The abduction of oscar Z, simply CANT be done on a Sinclair spectrum, at least not having comparable graphics/colors, sound/music, scrolling, game speed etc! 

[thealfest]

@ikonsgr In fact, most of the slowness of saboteur 2 comes from the original Speccy version, all the Amstrad specific code is much better optimized, Maz Spork did a great job porting the game. Also, more complex hardware does not make the Amstrad a better gaming machine than the Spectrum. Both systems have their advantages and limitations, and which one is better is a matter of personal preference. Please do not start holy wars here and do not write toxic posts.

My friend, rest assured that i have GREAT respect for Sinclair Spectrums, in fact i'm a proud owner of a Spectrum +3 with Divide :-)
Sinclair Spectrum was the machine that showed to the world, what "home computer" is, it was introduced 2 years before Amstrad CPC, and sold many millions, much more than Amstrad CPC!
BUT, the fact that Amstrad CPC was a far better Computer than Sinclair Spectrum is an UNDENIABLY AND OBJECTIVE TRUTH!
Hardware speaks for it self my friend, the 6845 CRT controller (with many capabilities like hardware scrolling, also used on the 1st ibm pc too) , the 27 color palette  and the AY sound chip of CPC, compared to the primitive ULA (with the notorious attribute clash problem), the limited 15 color palette (which actually were 7 colors+7 half bright + black)  and the sound beeper of spectrum, are offering VAST superior sound+graphics potential and capabilities, and this is NOT a "matter of personal preference"!
Games like R-Type 128, Super edge grinder, Star sabre, Sub hunter, Relentless, The abduction of oscar Z, simply CANT be done on a Sinclair spectrum, at least not having comparable graphics/colors, sound/music, scrolling, game speed etc! 

Why did you write this here? Please delete your post and stop writing offtopic.

[Gryzor]

Actually, @ikonsgr was pretty much on topic when he mentioned what he did mention. You're the one turning this into a debate, so you can drop it. 

[thealfest]

@Gryzor The topic is - "saboteur 2 mod" not "amstrad cpc is better than spectrum"

[ikonsgr]

Ok, if @thealfest feels offended by my comments, i don't have a problem to delete it from here.
Still, i can't see the reason for that, as the only thing i did, was, on the occasion of the remake, to quote a simple objective fact about Spectrum and CPC, no obsession, no "holy wars", no toxic posts, about any of our beloved 8bit micros... 

[Gryzor]

@Gryzor The topic is - "saboteur 2 mod" not "amstrad cpc is better than spectrum"

If you can't see how he linked the two, that's on you. Sorry, not in the mood to discuss it anymore, at least not in this thread.

[abalore]

@poulette73 Personal opinion is not a fact or constructive argument. And it is offtopic.

BTW the original Amstrad port is about 20% slower than the Spectrum version. And currently the Amstrad version of my mod is almost 2x slower than the Spectrum one, simply because the tile size is 16 bytes instead of 9, and the cpu is slower.

Sadly in Speccy you can't swap video buffers in hardware, so the memory block copying spoils the speed advantage of having smaller video buffer. Many games don't require double buffering, many others do, so it's a relative advantage. Greatly depends on the game requirements.

[andycadley]

@poulette73 Personal opinion is not a fact or constructive argument. And it is offtopic.

BTW the original Amstrad port is about 20% slower than the Spectrum version. And currently the Amstrad version of my mod is almost 2x slower than the Spectrum one, simply because the tile size is 16 bytes instead of 9, and the cpu is slower.

Sadly in Speccy you can't swap video buffers in hardware, so the memory block copying spoils the speed advantage of having smaller video buffer. Many games don't require double buffering, many others do, so it's a relative advantage. Greatly depends on the game requirements.

You can double buffer on a 464, but that requires sacrificing half the available RAM and that's rarely a practical option when you have to fit the whole game in memory too. So swings and roundabouts and all that.

[thealfest]

Since ikonsgr and Gryzor refused to delete off topic, I'm leaving this forum.

[Gryzor]

Bye, then. On one hand, too bad. On the other, we don't really take kindly to sour people, nor do we allow their self promotion.

Oh, and you probably missed the offer to delete the relevant post, but anyhow.

[pelrun]

Guy had every right to ask not to have his conversation stampeded over by the same old pointless argument, and also to walk away when the people involved instead decided to double down. That doesn't mean they're a "sour person".

This is the sort of thing people point to when they say a community isn't welcoming.

[Gryzor]

Guy had every right to ask not to have his conversation stampeded over by the same old pointless argument, and also to walk away when the people involved instead decided to double down. That doesn't mean they're a "sour person".

This is the sort of thing people point to when they say a community isn't welcoming.

You've been here long enough to know our discussions occasionally (actually, more often than not) take turns and make twists. That's what makes the community welcoming. (And heck, even your own post could be considered OT 😁}

The thread didn't get "stampeded over", ikonsgr made a point starting from this excellent mod, and OP saw it fit to reply to it thus fueling it. Ikonsgr even offered to remove the comment. Nobody doubled down.

OP even made a rather entitled (I found) report for the offending post instead of asking to just split the thread or just simply police it in a nice way, as has been done countless times before. 

And of course it's their right to up and leave, but I find the approach of "I'm going to another beach and taking my toys with me" to be the definition of sour.

[poulette73]

A totally childish, frustrated reaction of a spoiled child ! 


Faced with this kind of behavior, we have lost nothing in the change.
This is not the spirit, here, of the CPC community and of sharing !


It's a shame, this mod for Saboteur 2 had a lot of interest... BUT, it doesn't matter, life goes on !
The CPC will continue to live, with beautiful productions to come. 

Remember that 10 days ago, this topic didn't even exist, and we would never have been aware of it... in short... for me it's not going to change anything...

Fair wind ! 

[eto]

I had to read that twice to actually find what the problem could be.

[Gryzor]

I had to read that twice to actually find what the problem could be.

¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[trocoloco]

if that escalated quickly over the nonsense over CPC or ZX stuff... imagine fixing real problems like the wars in middle east... 

[shaymanjohn]

Shame they've gone, I was curious to understand why the Mode 0 stuff would take more memory and run slower... any thoughts anyone?