After discussion here : http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/gx4000-article-from-the-pixel-empire/ (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/gx4000-article-from-the-pixel-empire/) , i was wondering who would be interested for a new commercial game for GX 4000 / Plus range.I have actually no project for this range (as i'm already involved in other projects) but that may be interesting to know if GX/Plus community would be interested in a such project for future devellopers.
I put pricing as indication, that can vary.Same thing about possibility to product cartrige plastic case, i don't know about 'pro' finition instead of 3D printed cartriges.
Who would be interested with a such project ? please vote even you're not interested in such project.To finish, i'd say there is no good vote, everyone is free to be interested ;)
Interesting. But, what do you think, would be the difference between a commercial and a homebrew game? (Quality? programming experience, Professionality?...) Your version of R-Type for example is free and one of the best Games.Thx, i'm not objective so i can not say if it is one of the best CPC game but i'm very proud of it ;)
It would be great to get a new game that uses the features of the plus models in a good way rather than some of the shonk we've seen in the past.For me this is obvious, GX/Plus range need games especially develloped for them.Without lazy programming but without dealing with state of art, it is possible to make great games for theses machines.
40€ for a really gorgeous new game in opposition of some early jaguar homebrew (cheap pong-clone coded with the atari2600 basic then ported to jaguar, worst than a speccy port) why not.I'd pay 40 easily for a physical cart in the style of ghost on the MSX [emoji6]
A bubble bobble-like with gameplay improvement taken from bubble symphony, parasol stars, snow bros 2 -4 players mode !- would be a nice beginning. Taking inspiration from Fire&Ice (the master system port isnt' so bad), Toki, Cabal too.
What will be the cost of a real cartridge, since an additionnal chip is needed to emulate the ACID chip protection? Plus the box, plus the eeprom, ...
I still want to run the new R-Type from cart, would be great if you could make it run in 64k from cart to make it GX4000 friendly, if not, I'd still love it for my plus. ;)It should be fine if we get a version of the tool to convert a 80track dsk image right?
It should be fine if we get a version of the tool to convert a 80track dsk image right?
Sent from my ONEPLUS 3t using Tapatalk
No, the disks have protection for some reason, even though I thought it was a free download. ???
No, the disks have protection for some reason, even though I thought it was a free download. ???
I believe it does not use the firmware, and has it's own built in disk reader that directly accesses the CPC disk hardware (probably to save the 8k of ram the firmware uses)...
And free to play is not the same as free to modify and redistribute - so even the disks are protected, that's up to the author.
I believe it does not use the firmware, and has it's own built in disk reader that directly accesses the CPC disk hardware (probably to save the 8k of ram the firmware uses)...
And free to play is not the same as free to modify and redistribute - so even the disks are protected, that's up to the author.
Yeah, but it sucks not being able to play it on my GX4000even if it didn't use a custom loader, it wouldn't work on your GX4000, because it needs 128k minimum... and in fact, because they saved around 8k-10k of ram by writing that loader -if they hadn't used a custom loader it would actually needs more memory to make it work, so it would probably need 192k for the same functionality.
even if it didn't use a custom loader, it wouldn't work on your GX4000, because it needs 128k minimum... and in fact, because they saved around 8k-10k of ram by writing that loader -if they hadn't used a custom loader it would actually needs more memory to make it work, so it would probably need 192k for the same functionality.
The trouble is, that if the game uses self modifying code, generated level data etc, then that data cannot work straight from rom.. so really, a game which is going to have the function of a 128k game, but run on the 64k GX4000 needs to be designed with that in mind from the start.
No, the disks have protection for some reason, even though I thought it was a free download. ???Nope, there is no protection, i just used my own FDC code because it's faster and smaller.Chany hacked the game and made a file version, maybe you can try with this version (btw i don't think the game would fit in a 512K cart)
I still want to run the new R-Type from cart, would be great if you could make it run in 64k from cart to make it GX4000 friendly, if not, I'd still love it for my plus. ;)If i remember well i gave the sourcecode, if someone wants, no problem.On other side, a 'real' GX version would involve some serious rewrite of the rendering system to take adavantage of the soft scroll for example.This would improve dramaticaly the speed of the game =)
Nope, there is no protection, i just used my own FDC code because it's faster and smaller.Chany hacked the game and made a file version, maybe you can try with this version (btw i don't think the game would fit in a 512K cart)
@fano (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=87) Thanks for the information, I thought it was protected. :doh:You may try there as we asked some sites to avoid this version because it slaughtered our work : http://cpccrackers.free.fr/Downloads/Chany/RType2012_Chany.rar
The FDC still stops it being friendly with nocart. :(
I didn't realise there was a hacked version by Chany, have you any idea where it might be possible to download it from?
You may try there as we asked some sites to avoid this version because it slaughtered our work : http://cpccrackers.free.fr/Downloads/Chany/RType2012_Chany.rar
@fano (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=87)You can remove some files i think and keep only one level to test.I don't know at all but original should work on any expansion RAM that works like original CPC.
Thank you for the link :) even though as you said " it slaughtered our work " :(
There are to many files on the disks to use with nocart, maybe someone might be able to make it run from cart, I'm not sure.
Do you know if your original or this hacked version work on the M4 Board ?
Stupid question, but can two versions of the same game not be put on the cart? Like a 64k and a 128k version of the game? Might be worth considering though.
What will be the cost of a real cartridge, since an additionnal chip is needed to emulate the ACID chip protection? Plus the box, plus the eeprom, ...Sorry i didn't reply you before, i must say i don't actually have a precise idea, it's not possible to get original GX game boxes but a cardboard boxe is not that expensive, 512K eprom is not that expensive too, maybe Gerald could light us about ACID replacement cost.The bigger overcost would be sadly the cartrige plastic case :/ (when looking audience, the 3D printed case is the best option, have to see to cost and quality we can have with this)
SD card option is interesting. I guess this would pop straight in the C4CPC and make it work like a regular cart? (I.e. instaboot)Yep, there is not difficult as you can already do this with C4CPC ;)
I not sure if a normal sd fit, (all microsd come with adapter now) . But maybe as game case you can use ps vita game cases. They are cheap and easy to find new. In case of sd card use.Normal SD doesn't fit in C4CPC but using a SD adaptateur to protect µSD card seems a good idea ;)
Making a pcb would be relatively cheap, the expensive part would be making the case and the box. I don't know the actual costs but low volumes would probably make it prohibitive.
[size=78%] I've a resin-solution for casing (copy from original) made from a model constructor pricing about 10 €. So you only pay about 30 € for the hardware.[/size]
Interesting, add game, manual and box and we are at 50€, i'd be interested to see resin case quality.
Spoke with bryce about this some time ago. Using asic-emulator and low volume we came to a pcb-price of about 18-20€ including 512kB EPROM. I've a resin-solution for casing (copy from original) made from a model constructor pricing about 10 €. So you only pay about 30 € for the hardware.
After discussion here : http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/gx4000-article-from-the-pixel-empire/ , i was wondering who would be interested for a new commercial game for GX 4000 / Plus range.
Hello there , i am 35 years old and in my childhood i had an 6128 plus bought new by my father as a present for me for..... ,actually for no reason and this was the best lesson in my life but this is another story.Since then i had a lot yet i lost interest in all games except the one i used to play as a child in commodore 64 ,amstrad 6128plus and amiga 1200.Today i have a son of 3 years old and i guess my generation loves to spend more time with the children and there is no better way for than playing and learning and here comes your question.As a father i spend a lot for my child and i could happily spend 20 euros every 3-4 months for a game in my beloved retro home computer.I guess i am not the only one but Xifos game is a remarkable outcome.I could easily pay 20 euros for his game in cluding 4mhz games.But they have to be plus games because the lagging in the cpc original scrolling pause i think would be problematic for the your generations.For us it is okey , we are all used to it but the new generations i think not.I vote for digital c4cpc or dsk edition.Payment should be a thing of trust and understanding.The key question is how much time Xifo spend on his game?If it is half a year programming days he should get at least half a years half time salary.I guess 4000euros for every game.We should be at least 200 patriots paying 20 euros for him to invest his time on us.I think it really worth it.We are thousands out there who could spend 20 euros for a nice game.That was the goal my friend, to have an idea about how many people would be interested to reward Plus/GX dev for making a (QUALITY) game and to have an idea about audience choices.I must say the result is a bit disapointing...
That was the goal my friend, to have an idea about how many people would be interested to reward Plus/GX dev for making a (QUALITY) game and to have an idea about audience choices.I must say the result is a bit disapointing...Oops. I'm a huge GX4000 fanboy and I missed this thread and poll! See? Maybe a lot of people weren't aware and perhaps spend more time on Twitter etc than forums these days. I don't know.
That was the goal my friend, to have an idea about how many people would be interested to reward Plus/GX dev for making a (QUALITY) game and to have an idea about audience choices.I must say the result is a bit disapointing...Seeing how few units of the GX4000 have been sold (only 15,000) and probably the CPC+ units were in a similar low magnitude (I'd still be interested in hard numbers concerning the sold CPC+ units), it's probably a financial risk today to produce a commercial CPC+ only game (including GX4000).
The choice of project though is key to it's success (duh!), and the best chance of success is 'remaking' an existing famous game - most likely one that didn't appear on the Amstrad or the conversion was poor.You are 100% right, but as a developer I wouldn't persue a remake, unless I had authorization from the original developer... as the project could get killed by a lawsuit at the last minute... especially if you're planning to profit from it (I don't think TotO made any money selling his game at $15).. and all the time you'd spent would be for nothing.
What could be done, would be a decent game which comes in a standard version for standard CPCs and in a parallel version for the CPC+/GX4000 using the extra plus features. The developers would use the same code but different "render paths" (hehe). A bit like with Atari ST and its STE.ChibiAkumas does this to some extent, the original game was CPC only when it was 90% complete, and the CPC+ sprites were added at the last minute... The new version added CPC+ color palette too... I plan to do a similar thing for future games too.. release with limited CPC+ support (cpc+ palette but no sprites).. then release an enhanced version with sprites if the feedback is good... the reason for this is the CPC sprite code is the same for CPC/MSX/ZX etc... but the CPC+ code has to work with the hardware limits, so it's all custom code.
That was the goal my friend, to have an idea about how many people would be interested to reward Plus/GX dev for making a (QUALITY) game and to have an idea about audience choices.I must say the result is a bit disapointing...
Don't underestimate the retrogaming general scene.Yes indeed.
Seeing how few units of the GX4000 have been sold (only 15,000) and probably the CPC+ units were in a similar low magnitude (I'd still be interested in hard numbers concerning the sold CPC+ units), it's probably a financial risk today to produce a commercial CPC+ only game (including GX4000).I don't really get that argument, the market at this point is so tiny that making a standard CPC game isn't going to give you a significantly larger user base than a Plus title.
What could be done, would be a decent game which comes in a standard version for standard CPCs and in a parallel version for the CPC+/GX4000 using the extra plus features. The developers would use the same code but different "render paths" (hehe). A bit like with Atari ST and its STE.
Now for example there's a nice C64 retro game "Sam's Journey", and its authors wrote on their website (https://www.knightsofbytes.games/) in March 2018 :Even though the C64 community is of course bigger, those 1250 units of Sam's Journey are in no way representive of how many copies of new C64 can be sold. The last numbers I've read for the best selling new games are actually 1000 units lower, and games of average popularity probably sell like a 100-200 copies (including the digital download sales which are usually very cheap).
1,250 units in the starting three months, well that's not bad, isn't it?
That really, really cripples what you can do though. If you look at perhaps the biggest example, Prehistorik 2, there is no way it would have had to have that jerky push scrolling if it wasn't for the need to be able to work on a standard CPC.
In case the CPC market is as tiny as the CPC+ market, I still can't see a reason to skip the CPC market just because it's as tiny as the CPC+ one? :-)To be clear, it's not about skipping the CPC market - if you have a game that works well on the old hardware that's great and you should totally go for it. And it's a "nice to have" if it "lights up" a bit on the Plus hardware in the way that, for example, Chibi Akumas does.
To create a game in two versions for both CPC and CPC+ is of course a challenge, like I said, but I think well worth the effort. On the PC we always had to do it this way, isn't it? Most of the code base (logic etc) is shared between both versions, but the graphics "driver" path is different.It just doesn't work like that in reality though. If you construct a scroll engine around the Plus pixel scrolling, for example, you can't then just "swap in" a slightly different routine to do the same on an old school CPC. You have to re-write everything that even vaguely goes anywhere near the display logic (and that's most of the code). You may have to redesign levels to cope with less fluid movement, redesign all of the graphics to cope with the lesser choice of palette and flat out remove or replace some functionality that the old school CPCs just can't do. The alternative is a "lowest common denominator" approach where you're really just targeting the original hardware and not really taking advantage of what the Plus has to offer.
So you, Captain Past, noted that the well selling C64 retro game Sam's Journey is the great exception. That's unfortunate to hear, but very important to know. (Do we have numbers, by the way?)The C64 was a vastly more successful system than the entire CPC range combined and still has more of a global reach, so it's frankly just a better target if you want a financially viable retro platform. Even the Speccy is more likely to be able to support the cost of development than the CPC and I honestly doubt you'd make any real return on sales there either.
PC games waste a lot of CPU time making those kind of scaling decisions because they have a lot of it to spare, every cycle on a CPC or Plus game is likely to be very precious.Yes, but still the best optimisation in order to reduce cycles is the proper selection of algorithms and models.
The C64 was a vastly more successful system than the entire CPC range combined and still has more of a global reach, so it's frankly just a better target if you want a financially viable retro platform.That's true.
However, when doing an indie retro game today, the prospect of it returning some pocket-money wouldn't do any harm.I would not present like this but i totaly agree the idea.
Do we know some numbers concerning how many CPC retro fans are out there interested in new CPC games, in contrast to CPC+/Gx4000 retro fans? The poll in this thread indicates the CPC+/Gx4000 retro fans knowing this website.My point was not to skip the CPC market as main effect but it is a side effect.My goals when doing a Plus/GX game is to use their features, the game design itself would relies on the Plus features (mainly soft scroll, hardware sprites, DMA channels and ROM storage), it's not possible to transpose this on classical CPC without losing original design.
In case the CPC market is as tiny as the CPC+ market, I still can't see a reason to skip the CPC market just because it's as tiny as the CPC+ one? :-)
Now for example there's a nice C64 retro game "Sam's Journey", and its authors wrote on their website in March 2018 :Impressive, i think it's close to a just good NES/MD game.
1,250 units in the starting three months, well that's not bad, isn't it? (Digital download version for 20 €, and boxed edition for 45 €.)
Don't underestimate the retrogaming general scene. Yes, the inquiry in this website didn't get many answers but remember r-type128, orion prime for exemple and recently the ghost'n'goblins remake. Thoses games are now famous in thoses communities. Many retrogaming webstes and boards mentioned them. You and Toto were invited to retrogaming meetings to show your work. In the french community Atlantis is now well-known for his Athanor saga.Please don't misunderstand me, i think you know i have an idea about CPC/Plus scene.R-Type has been and is still a great success, i'm very happy how community received it, i see it on social medias at least every week, reviews, speak about it with a lot of people, btw i officially released the source with assets lately to allow a Plus cartrige port.My question was a bit different, i know a good game would be greatly received by community, the question was more about attractivity of the Plus 'market' for some homebrew devs.
#Super Mario BrosRemember seeing some messages about this, i think that could be a great idea.People who would make it must take the time to do a great job, that could be a future reference in terms of quality.
I think there's been two attempts and work in progress already, not sure how far these are. But maybe you could turn yours into Super ROLAND Bros, using the various Roland sprites for different power-up states - and go off and make your own game design with a homage to the original Super Mario? I'd like to see this on the Plus/GX4000 though with the available hardware sprites / scrolling for a smooth fast experience.
Since I gave Polyplay Pentomino for free, I cannot give any numbers here.I have ordered it, so you have at least one sale!
Not completely off-topic I hope: How much would one Cartridge-Shell cost?
What would be the best way to get them?
That's an interesting thread. I really enjoyed reading it. Whilst I never owned a CPC+/GX4000, just a normal CPC, I recently discovered the CPC+ features and really love them.
Do we have some numbers concerning the CPC+ user base? For example on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_GX4000) we read that Amstrad sold only 15,000 GX4000 units. But what about the CPC+ (464+ and 6128+) ?
To get a price, I can live with, there is a need to produce a minimum of 100 pcb (costs about 16-18€ without EPROM but with all other stuff including acid-emulator). And I cannot pay that amout of money.Could something like this be funded in a Kickstarter fashion?
I do not know, if there is a general interest by others to get something on cartridge, now that the c4cpc exists.
Lots of GX4000’s were sold off cheap in the U.K. hundreds of thousands, there must be at least 500,000 that were sold off in the end. I remember one warehouse in Sparkbrook, Birmingham selling ‘em for £25 each, another shop selling ‘em for £50. These warehouses literally had thousands.
Who says that there was 15 000 GX 4000 sold? Cliff Lawson at Amstrad?
The GX4000 was both Amstrad's first and only attempt at entering the console market. Although offering enhanced graphics capabilities, it failed to gain popularity in the market, and was quickly discontinued, selling 15,000 units in total.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_GX4000#cite_note-Retroinspection:_GX4000-3)
...
[3] "Retroinspection: GX4000". Retrogamer Magazine Issue 52 Pg64.
No, it would be nice to have such an accurate source.or maybe we can contact them (but i did not see any contact form/mail on their website)
I only quoted a vague source on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_GX4000) , which could be untrue of course: