Could the CPC have included a mouse and a GUI based OS?

[Prodatron]

I've always found programs with two file lists, like Norton, more convenient and useful than browsing through windows.

That's why the file managing tool in SymbOS is a Norton Commander clone (the first of its kind for the CPC):



There is no so-called "chaos" (lol!), thanks to the proportional font you get a lot of stuff on the screen even in 320x200 without problems, better than in Atari GEM:



(the old font on these screenshots sucks a little bit, but it is now improved since 10 years or so)

And I've always had a dilemma whether it's better to use mode 1, because it's not as sad as mode 2, or better mode 2 because it holds more letters than mode 1. But I think the narrow letters in mode 1 are a good compromise.

This screenshot looks very cool! I really like it! Is it a P.o.C./Mockup or something existing?

[ZorrO]

SymCom. it's not first one Norton like utilities for CPC. 10 years early example:
https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Stream2
And even much older copy program with two file lists from Poland on picture below.

This screen is my experiment like could look windows, and how fast could move pointer in Basic. Icons are as string. I never finish this. (ZbyniuR is my old profile).
https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/programming/basic-programming-tips/msg117543/#msg117543

[dodogildo]

Wow that Stream2 looks amazing! It's got proportional fonts as well, like SymCommander (which is already, well, awesome!)

[GUNHED]

Pure chaos

All I see is a perfectly usable, if primitive (naturally) desktop system.  You could use it out of the box right even reading a manual, of that's "chaos" then whatever...

When hearing "chaos" I have to think about something else...

Well, never too late to make it better - you can do it! 

[GUNHED]

Guys, this is the Amstrad forum.

With the maximum respect for all opinions, 320x200 means "high res" for us.

Medium resolution, surely? We're not C64 users. 

Very true! For serious OS / Desktop on CPC the 640x200 - or even better 512x256 resolution is mandatory! 

[GUNHED]

I've always found programs with two file lists, like Norton, more convenient and useful than browsing through windows.

Thank you so much!!! Totally agreed!!! 

[Prodatron]

Wow that Stream2 looks amazing! It's got proportional fonts as well, like SymCommander (which is already, well, awesome!)

Ops, I totally forgot about the file manager in Stream2 (even after starting the Wiki article )
Problem is, that I could never try it in detail, as it makes problems in WinApe.
So maybe Stream2 really had the first Norton Commander clone on the CPC. But it's hard to say, the Disccopy example posted by Zorro is too primitive compared to an NC clone, so I wouldn't count it.

In any case IMHO Stream2 was the most impressive GUI/OS-like system in the 90ies, maybe even better than DES (not 100% sure about this, but I think so).

[GUNHED]

Actually the first Norton commander clone was done by the German Hardware Company Vortex: File-Copy dated 1986. See CPC-Power.com

https://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=16203


In addition there was ZFILER running on CPC too, using the Z-System for either CP/M 2.2 or CP/M Plus.


Both program were well finished in the late 80ies. And there was even more for the CPC. 

[Prodatron]

OMG, I suspect that whoever says this is a Norton Commander clone has never tried it? Or simply ignored the fact that it is not comparable?
Just because the screenshot shows two file lists, one on the left and one on the right?
The tool mentioned is simply a nightmare compared to a NC clone, as soon as you are no longer in the mid-80s and a masochist.
But thanks for mentioning it, now after seeing it  I still assume that SymCommander is the first real Norton Commander clone for the CPC ever (maybe I am wrong because of Stream2), later YANCC by Bernd was added, beeing the #2.

[Gryzor]

Yeah, that's just a file copier with a small display for the drives. That's no dual -pane file manager.

[GUNHED]

OMG, I suspect that whoever says this is a Norton Commander clone has never tried it? Or simply ignored the fact that it is not comparable?
Just because the screenshot shows two file lists, one on the left and one on the right?
The tool mentioned is simply a nightmare compared to a NC clone, as soon as you are no longer in the mid-80s and a masochist.
But thanks for mentioning it, now after seeing it  I still assume that SymCommander is the first real Norton Commander clone for the CPC ever (maybe I am wrong because of Stream2), later YANCC by Bernd was added, beeing the #2.

Putting down other programmers' software doesn't make your own software any better.

[Prodatron]

Putting down other programmers' software doesn't make your own software any better.

Comparing old outdated stuff with actual more useful and userfriendly software doesn't make the old software any better.
That doesn't automatically mean that it was good or bad for that time, which is what you are trying to imply with your moral posturing.
Many old software, especially tools, were poor when you compare them with actual ones. Just compare any old assembler dev kit with @m_dr_m Orgams, including Maxam, which was fantastic in the past, but looks useless when comparing it to Orgams.
Today - at least some - know so much more about software design and usability, as there was some progress during the last decades.

[GUNHED]

Well, I think that file-managers with two file windows are outdated since the 90ies. For my taste it makes more sense to have to ability to work with multiple(!) devices at the same time. So to speak to be able to browse through multiple directories, not only two.
The CPC has software doing this since the early 90ies, no other computer has that till today. So it looks like people are usually fine with having only two file windows. Just the simple way.

[ZorrO]

I've seen such file copies with two windows on Spectrum, Atari XE and C64, and of course also on ST and Amiga. But not from 80s I suppose. And also versions that are not only used for copying but also for editing text files, displaying binary files, images, and playing music. And running files. Of course such additional options reduce copy buffer and increase number of disk swaps with one drive.
In such simple systems as Amsdos where path to file is only one letter, so two windows are enough. It is different story with multi partitions and directories, to quickly jump between locations you need some way of remembering paths. So in 16bits that was useful.

I see that the Polish example I gave is only an unofficial translation of the German one. This is not only such translation of foreign programs from this source, but I thought that this one was original. Now I see I was wrong.
I really liked this program, it was fastest files copy I had, and only one that could fit an entire 178K disk as twice swap in 6128.

[Gryzor]

Well, I think that file-managers with two file windows are outdated since the 90ies.

THEY ARE WHAT? 😂😂😂

Sorry, but especially during the last few years dual pane file managers are actually gaining in popularity.

And sure, you have some programs that can do more than three panes (like Directory Opus), but man, if you thought GEM was chaotic, then again, I don't know what to tell you.

[GUNHED]

BTW: First version of Norton Commander was released 1984 (back the day it was called VDOS). So, yes, that two window thing is 40 years old now. (See Wikipedia ;-)
Happy Birthday!!! 

[zhulien]

If Prodatron got his tardis working he can sell Mr Sugar Symbos for CPC. I bet if the CPC had Symbos in 1985/86 (when dktronics 256k ram expansions were available) I am sure it would have wiped the floor of all other 8bits. 

[GUNHED]

Like the C64 did with Geos 

[Gryzor]

If you think you can compare the Geos of then with the SymbOS of now... ok.

[GUNHED]

If you think you can compare the Geos of then with the SymbOS of now... ok.

Well, of course they use different CPUs.

[ZorrO]

C64 software is not standing still. In recent years, much more interesting window OS than GEOS have been created. I haven't explored their capabilities too deeply, I don't even have an emulator, but from YT videos I assume they are more useful than SymbOS, with all due respect to Predator's talent and persistence.

https://c64os.com/
http://www.symbos.de/mirrors/www.clips64.de/desktop.htm



Do we have a ROM for CPC that would allow us to run any old software with a mouse without extra hundreds of KB RAM, and without touching keyboard?  And still using Basic. They have it.

[Gryzor]

That's why I said "... The GeOS of then".

[eto]

I assume they are more useful than SymbOS

What exactly do you have in mind is more useful there? 

[ZorrO]

for example, you can run old software there, not just the one written for new OS. And also display any pictures for C64, not just those that have the same mode and palette that is set in SymbOS.

I watched it a long time ago and I don't remember all times when I thought I would like to have something like this on CPC.
Maybe I'm talking nonsense now, but I think there was an option to edit and use COPY-PASTE in Basic listing. The system doesn't take up a lot of memory, it's transparent, adding new useful functions to the old system. I would give up appearance of Win95 for such functions.
This could have been in other videos about these OSes that I have seen before, and not in the ones I linked above.

[eto]

for example, you can run old software there, not just the one written for new OS.

Not really from within the OS. It basically goes back to normal mode. And imho if you have a lot of programs that doesn't really look good. From what I've seen it's not a real OS and not even a GUI but more a PUI (Petscii UI). It's also not multi-tasking, but purely single-tasking + one utility. 

However, if I understand you correctly, you are missing a feature to conveniently manage your AMSDOS games/apps/files from in a nice Desktop environment. And there I definitely agree, I would also like something like that a lot that automatically starts when I turn on the CPC.