Could the CPC have included a mouse and a GUI based OS?

[cwpab]

Not much to add to what the title says...

I wonder if that was a real option back in the day, and how it would have changed the market.

Also, could a mouse and a GUI based OS have fitted well within Sugar's "a mug's eyeful" approach?

[Neurox66]

You are right, 
if in 1986 GEOS proved that even a computer like the Commodore 64 could offer 
a graphical user experience why can't Amstrad CPCs have it? 
There are actually several environments, the first of all is SymbOS.

[McArti0]

I think the costs of creating a windowing system in the 80s for a 4Mhz home computer without an emulator and debugger would have been too high. Windows for a much more expensive PC was just being written. Single programs with GUI, ART Studio, etc. were all that could be expected.

[Shaun M. Neary]

In 84 initially? Not a chance! Very few computers were using GUI's and mice back then. It didn't even become a standard until years later.

I think people are losing their memory... either that or weren't born at the time.

[arnoldemu]

Not much to add to what the title says...

I wonder if that was a real option back in the day, and how it would have changed the market.

Also, could a mouse and a GUI based OS have fitted well within Sugar's "a mug's eyeful" approach?

In 1984 it wasn't clear that was a thing. The 16bits looked to research done by Xerox for the palo alto machine and hoped it was the right choice.

In addition it was more likely to be a trackball rather than a mouse.

In my opinion the mugs eyeful was to give the impression you got something more expensive and feature rich than you actually got so it wouldn't fit.

When the 16bits were released and windows 1 was out it the gui was becoming the next cool thing and then people made it on the amstrad in various forms.

[czarnikjak]

Not practical for 64kb with tape machines. Maybe once 6128 it would have been possible, but still it would be pushing it.

[Egg Master]

May be on Amstrad Plus, with GEM, if the computer was 68000 based.

[lightforce6128]

Just an additional thought: Locomotive BASIC already supports Text-Windows, and joysticks (instead of mouse) were common. This combination allows to build something like a GUI, but maybe people just did not expect something like this from their computers or had never seen something like this before.

[Gryzor]

Just an additional thought: Locomotive BASIC already supports Text-Windows, and joysticks (instead of mouse) were common. This combination allows to build something like a GUI, but maybe people just did not expect something like this from their computers or had never seen something like this before.

I agree with that. A pseudo-graphical UI was certainly possible, but a mouse? At that cost? No way.

Also I'm wondering what even that UI could offer - certainly not much with a tape, maybe a few things with a disc (like file listings maybe)

[cwpab]

Yeah, I'm aware people didn't demand it at the time.

The question is more about... Was it possible technically? Would the word of mouth have increased the CPC sales dramatically by making people (rightfully) believe it was The Future?

[andycadley]

Technically possible? Yes. 

But with just 64K of RAM and a tape deck for storage, it would've been borderline useless. It would just have been too early to be actively useful (it's debatable if it would've even been useful on a 664, but at least disk storage might have offered limited practical uses).

[Shaun M. Neary]

Yeah, I'm aware people didn't demand it at the time.

The question is more about... Was it possible technically? Would the word of mouth have increased the CPC sales dramatically by making people (rightfully) believe it was The Future?

You're asking the right question and omitting the time frame which is critically important.

In 84-85, this wasn't an issue at all.

That's like asking was the Internet possible in the 80s. Yes, it was but only in certain industries (for want of a better term)

To answer your question, on a 64k machine, as already pointed out, wouldn't have been a pleasant experience. Passable on a 6128.

But if you want a real laugh, see if you could try it on a 48k Speccy!!!

[Anthony Flack]

A GUI wasn't even much use on the Amiga unless you had a hard drive. Programs that made you launch them from Workbench were a pain. 

It's only really useful once you have a mass storage device with many files and folders. I have found that navigating the directories of the M4 quickly becomes tedious in BASIC, but with disks and tapes it was never an issue, since as soon as you stick the disk in you're already where you need to be.

The Macintosh came out in the same year and before that nobody was really thinking about WIMP. It was a new idea. 

[robcfg]

There was a GUI called WIMP System for the Dragon computers, by Broomsoft in 1987, distributed by Dragonfire Services.

One good point of the Dragon is that it has 2 analog joystick ports that could emulate a mouse.

[Prodatron]

Yeah, I'm aware people didn't demand it at the time.
The question is more about... Was it possible technically?

Yes, of course. Not with tape (I'm not sure why this was discussed here), but with disc and at least with 128K. That was already double what GEOS needed, and today we know how  much more is possible with the CPC in this regard

Would the word of mouth have increased the CPC sales dramatically by making people (rightfully) believe it was The Future?

If someone had developed what was technically possible in terms of a GUI operating system in 1985 or 1986, I'm sure CPC sales would have increased at that time and perhaps extended the life of the CPC and Z80 machines in general.

The problem is that we have a lot more experience now than we did back then about how such a system should best look and be structured. So this is more of a theoretical but fun thought experiment.

[Shaun M. Neary]

Guys!
Does it really matter if it came out in 87 or 89?

Either way it wasn't in 84 or 85 and that's what we're really looking at here!

It was never on the cards for Amstrad back then! Why would it be? It wasn't a thing back then from a commercial standpoint!

[Brocky]

this might be a little offtopic...but on topic...

what was the first GUI OS getting about for CPC?

i see there was Max Desktop from '87 (never tried it)
DES from 94, seem quite nice...
and the more modern ones like Symbos and futureos..

[Anthony Flack]

AMX Mouse software was consciously trying to mimic the Mac, and the Dragon one clearly is too. It could have been done in 1984, but that would have involved Alan Sugar being forward-thinking and radical enough to create a competitor to the Macintosh at the same time as Apple.

Another way of looking at it; it WAS done in 1984, but by Apple and Steve Jobs, not Amstrad and Alan Sugar. Although Alan Sugar did pursue a similar all-in-one design strategy, so it's not so crazy.

Maybe if Alan Sugar had gone on a tour of PARC like Steve Jobs had done, and seen all their designs like Steve Jobs did, he would have gone "Blimey, get a load of that mug's eyeful! Tell Roland our machine has to have a mouse and a pointer"

At the time, everybody thought light pens were going to be the main supplementary input.

[ZorrO]

@Neurox66 @cwpab - SymbOS was not the first, rather the last, as it was only from 2006, although it is the most advanced GUI for CPC, and the only with multitasking.

But there were a dozen or so different graphical overlays for Amsdos already in the 80s. Including CEUS RSX set for GUI made by Prodatron in 1990. And several well-known graphic and DTP programs for mouse control. Programs with GUI such as Art Studio were popular.
Dedicated mice for CPC such as AMX or DK-Tronics were expensive due to complicated interface and software. But DIY connecting an Atari or Geos mouse for smart people with a soldering iron was easy and cheap.
Browse the links on this page:
https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Category:CPC_GUI

In Poland, according to a survey from 1990, as many as 7% of CPC owners had a mouse, similarly to C64 owners, and only 2% of Spectrum and Atari XE owners. And I suppose there could be more of them in richer countries.

[lightforce6128]

This is one of the first images I found regarding an "80ies computer workplace":


[link to image]

It shows the "help system" at the top (bookshelf) and the "file management system" down to the right (disk box). The "active application" can be seen in the center (CRT monitor). Operation is done with a "cursor" (the hand of the operator). The computer itself is only part of this quite analog setup. Processes are organized differently, because swapping to another program costs time and requires many manual steps.

Today there are no longer books or external media needed, only fast network connections and mass storage for caching. Hundreds of programs seemingly run in parallel without any manual intervention needed.

Although both is about using computers, the scenarios are quite different.

[Prodatron]

It shows the "help system" at the top (bookshelf) and the "file management system" down to the right (disk box). The "active application" can be seen in the center (CRT monitor). Operation is done with a "cursor" (the hand of the operator). The computer itself is only part of this quite analog setup. Processes are organized differently, because swapping to another program costs time and requires many manual steps.

At least it's a Z80 machine that could also run a Windows graphical interface with multitasking if it gets a small RAM upgrade and bitmap graphics.

[St-BeidE(DE/GB)]

How old was @Prodatron in 1984? 
So... clearly no gui. 

Stefan 

[abalore]

Just an additional thought: Locomotive BASIC already supports Text-Windows, and joysticks (instead of mouse) were common. This combination allows to build something like a GUI, but maybe people just did not expect something like this from their computers or had never seen something like this before.

That's partially inaccurate. BASIC supports windows, yes, but they don't keep the content when other stuff is drawn on top. So in practice they are of little help.

For a minimum working GUI you'd need around 256K of RAM, I guess, to have storage to keep the window contents and to be able to run some simple applications. With 512K I think you can have a full GUI experience.

The CPC has early 512K RAM expansions, like the Vortex SP512 as soon as 1985. The AMX mouse was also released in 1985. So hardware wise there was no reason to not having mouse and GUI by that time. I guess it's more a matter of interest or need.

[McArti0]

This was the heyday of the light pen.

Menu pointed at and selected with the pen.

[Egg Master]

The CPC came with the best BASIC to use it. CP/M was a great value add.
Unfortunately there was no GUI for the Z80 in the 80s. I'm pretty sure GEM was possible.