CPCWiki forum

In a recent thread we've been discussing creative ways to avoid / reduce piracy (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/games/creative-ideas-for-copy-protection) on the CPC.
Specifically the scenario where a developer creates a "pay what you want" digital download version of this game, while at the same time also is offering a "physical collector's edition" cartridge version of the game.
In this scenario it is in the developer's interest to prevent people creating their own physical cartridge, because it will reduce or even completely stop sales of the physical edition the developer worked hard to create.

But what it's all really about, is helping the developers keep their motivation, in any way we can.
Piracy is a motivation-killer - especially after having put so much time and effort into making a physical edition of the game, so it'll be good to find ways to reduce piracy. Some nice suggestions can be found in that thread.
Money donations is logically a booster for most people, since it shows appreciation. And seeing an overall interest in one's project is also a booster, so don't be shy with those € 1 EUR payments on itch.io.
I imagine having handy assets available to make life easier is also good, so musicians should go ahead and put their tracks on IGM for CPC devs to find them. ;)
 
It could be interesting to hear from developers in their own words, what would help them keep their motivation to create games for the CPC? What would boost your motivation to make more CPC games?

Quote from: mr_lou on 10:12, 01 January 25It could be interesting to hear from developers in their own words, what would help them keep their motivation to create games for the CPC? What would boost your motivation to make more CPC games?

I find that writing any game there are fun bits to do but there is also lots of time consuming and boring bits to do. 

The fun bits feel easy, they go quickly, or feel like they do. The boring bits seem to slow time down and feel like they take ages but they are necessary to make a game that is finished and released.

For me I just push through those boring bits and look forward to the next fun bit. I find the motivation just naturally comes and goes and when it comes I try and do as much as I can. I find that my motivation is higher when I am working on a type of game which I have an interest in, maybe a genre I've always wanted to write, or perhaps something which is a technical challenge.

The bits that are not so fun are bug fixing (especially ones that take time to track down), optimising over and over, squeezing the code to get just another byte, making up the final disks, testing on hardware, testing on a variety of devices (m4, etc)

I also choose not to give any information or progress about what I am working on because my time is limited and I don't work on things regularly. I have bursts of work and then nothing for a bit.

Personally I'd feel that if I did mention it, I'd then feel an obligation to get it done by a particular time, or to put people's ideas into it (which is good but can also be feature creep and prolong development), I also feel if people were giving me money during development again that is an obligation to do something, also  if something is not released within a specific time frame it doesn't look good on me.

I am however motivated by how a released game is appreciated (or not in the case of Mayhem :laugh: ), through reviews, posting about it on forums, perhaps money or coffee in a itch like pay what you want model. I feel it would not add up to be enough to work full time and I never expect it to but it's that appreciation. That would motivate me more to consider the next game but not during development as I said before.
 
So for me this is what DOES help:
* Having good tools that allow me to automate some of the boring bits (I have my own tools but there are many good tools out there)
* Having good emulation and tools enabling me to locate the cause of the bugs quickly (many emulators qualify here)
* being able to iterate on the game quickly when I am motivated.
* Knowing there are a group of people who have the skills I don't (graphics, music and fx, design, testing, cat art, making physical hardware) and being able to reach out and team up when the time is right and ask for their help. I choose to do this at different times in development when I know how much memory budget and cpu budget I have for each and so I can give them an idea but also try not to restrict creativity.
* Knowing there are other people out there who have knowledge of coding something I haven't done (e.g. some types of game ai) and being able to learn from them.

I think what is also important to note is there are other tools like AGD which take away all the work of coding up a game engine and allow everyone to write a game and focus on the gameplay and game mechanics.

I'd reiterate what @arnoldemu says about 'boring bits'.  You have to go in accepting this inevibility and be psychologically prepared for it :laugh:

I never know why people give estimated release dates, it's just asking for trouble and puts you under pressure ???   I'm not a big fan of previews and the associated hype train either but that's a different question...

I'm mainly motivated by the creative and technical challenge.  Having the awesome tools out there like emulators and graphics programs make the boring bits tolerable.  I'm not motivated by money and since it's a hobby I don't expect it.  Nice words on a forum or in a magazine review definitely spur me on :D

I recognise a few things you both mention:
If I hadn't come up with ways to skip the boring parts of music creation, I definitely wouldn't create the amount of tracks I do - for the number of platforms I target.
So yes, having shortcuts helps a lot with the motivation. :)
I also recognise that money means far less than positive feedback and appreciation. This is closely related to another aspect that matters to me that hasn't been mentioned yet: That the community is nice and friendly. As soon as too many jerks throw negativity in my face, I personally lose all motivation for a period of time.

So it's actually all about "what can we expect with a high probability"?

• A lot of helpful shortcuts and tools, or hard boring work from scratch?
• A decent amount of sales, or someone pirates my game?
• Helpful friendly positive attitudes online, or general negative attitudes?
• Lots of available assets to search and choose from, or tedious time-consuming work finding a few assets without choice?
• A chance of earning some pocket money, or earning nothing at all?

It's our expectations that'll set the level of motivation, I think.
Any expectation that isn't met, but rather turns out to be a disappointment, will affect the level of motivation for the next project.
For example: "I expect to be able to sell a decent amount of physical editions".
Or "I expect people to appreciate the effort I put into this for the CPC community".

One could say of course, that whoever can create a project with absolutely no expectations whatsoever, can't fail.  8)

Quote from: mr_lou on 13:50, 01 January 25As soon as too many jerks throw negativity in my face, I personally lose all motivation for a period of time.

Honestly I can't remember that anyone who is active in the community, who develops software, hardware, makes music, graphics, actively helps others or even has a Youtube channel with community related material will be a jerk and throw in negativity. Sure, there can be misunderstandings or sometimes people get caught off on the wrong foot, and there might even be animosities - but real negativity almost always comes from people who's primary (only?) "contribution" to the community is demanding and complaining. 

And those jerks really should not matter. They are a side effect of every even slighlty popular community and we have to live with them - but they are not THE community. They are not important and should be treated as such. They are not worth the emotions we tend to develop when they share their "feedback". 

@eto That's a discussion for a different thread, if anyone is interested in exploring that topic. I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about what people think constitutes as negative behavior. Or what each of us think we should and shouldn't be bothered by. That's not what this thread is about.

But I can tell you that personality type models usually deal with 16 or 32 personality types. And the most important thing to understand about personality types, is that nothing is wrong with any of them. They merely differ from each other, and it is very rare for any of them to understand any of the other. Add to that psychological projection, which rules far more than most of us realise. Therefor it is the most common flaw of all of us to conclude that someone else is being a jerk, to which most people feel a need to respond as we feel (according to our own personality type) he deserves - and that response is in turn perceived by other personality types as if we are in fact now the jerk.

Different things affect each personality type differently. A classic flaw is for one type to say: "That shouldn't bother you", and the other to respond with: "Well, that other thing shouldn't bother you!". And both will have fine arguments as to why it bothers each of them - which none of the other will understand - because we're simply affected by different things.

Some will be bothered by negative attitudes from fellow community members. Some by pirates stealing their game. Some by disappointing sales. It's merely the flip side of what this thread is about: What makes you keep the motivation?

And on that topic, let me share a few things I've noticed about myself and my music creation.

• One thing that often motivates me is whenever I've made a sale. Especially if someone buys multiple tracks. That always gives a boost of motivation to start up a new track.
• And funnily: When I manage to complete a track (which only happens in 1 out of 10 times), that success alone sometimes also gives me a motivational boost to start up a new track, which is why I've often released two tracks right after each other.

But both of those examples are scenarios I can't actually do anything about. I can't do anything to make it happen. So they're not good examples.

Better examples are: "If I could reduce chances of my game being pirated, it would motivate me more". Great! Let's see if we can figure out ways to reduce or even prevent piracy for your game.
Or: "For me it helps a lot if I have good dev tools that lets me skip the boring parts of development". Alright then. That's something we can do something about. Let's make sure we have some good dev tools then! And don't forget to share your own tools with the rest of the community.

I can relate to that latter one for my music creation. For many years it was tedious work sampling instruments and split'n'cut them in Audacity. Until I discovered a simple SoX command that'd do it for me automatically. That did indeed boost the motivation, to be able skip that boring part and shorten my workflow like that. And I would share these commands here, if this thread was about music creation, but it's not. It's about Amstrad CPC game development.

Another thing I imagine would motivate devs, is to be able - with relatively little effort - to target multiple platforms? Develop the game, and then be able to produce binaries for Amstrad + ZX Spectrum + MSX + Amiga + whatever. Wouldn't that make everything feel much more "worth it"?
AGD (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/AGD) that @arnoldemu mentioned is one way of achieving that. But I dunno. Would that be a motivational booster for you, or do you only have eyes for the CPC? :)

to let the dev keep the motivation, let the graphic guy do his job, and the musician too ;D

and vice-versa

Money, I'd say, is probably the biggest demotivater. Which might seem counter intuitive but:

• It sucks the fun out of a hobby and turns it into a job
• It's taxable income, so comes with a bunch of additional burdens on your time to record it and the tax will typically wipe most of it out.
• It creates expectations. People who donate in advance want results sooner. People who buy the game expect support. People get upset if you didn't agree with their feedback when they're the ones paying.
• The amount you can reasonably earn from CPC releases is miniscule, even less so from physical releases (which tbh are mostly vanity projects). If you actually want money you might just as well target the PC and just produce something retro-styled instead, the tooling is far better and you can avoid a lot of the tedious bits that come from underpowered hardware.

Community feedback can be a double edged sword. Seeing that there is interest as you go certainly can help, but it's difficult not to get derailed by everybody's suggestions (which are probably well meant). And again it brings a lot of expectations.

Quote from: mr_lou on 09:34, 02 January 25Another thing I imagine would motivate devs, is to be able - with relatively little effort - to target multiple platforms? Develop the game, and then be able to produce binaries for Amstrad + ZX Spectrum + MSX + Amiga + whatever. Wouldn't that make everything feel much more "worth it"?
AGD (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/AGD) that @arnoldemu mentioned is one way of achieving that. But I dunno. Would that be a motivational booster for you, or do you only have eyes for the CPC? :)

Not really. Most of the appeal of retro programming is being able to push the hardware beyond what was perceived capable. Cross platform tools inevitably steer you instead towards a lowest common denominator. Tools like AGD are great if you're not really a programmer and can live within the sandbox they provide, but there's also a reason you can kind of spot an AGD game a mile off.

Quote from: roudoudou on 09:43, 02 January 25to let the dev keep the motivation, let the graphic guy do his job, and the musician too ;D

Really?
That's not my experience.  :laugh:
If the gamedev would let the musician do this job, then I'm sure the musician would keep the motivation. To be able to do the music exactly as I want without the gamedev telling me how it should be, helps a lot. But in my experience, the gamedev often has a lot of ideas on how it should sound, and therefor keeps asking for changes. That's not particular motivational for the musician. ;)  And if the gamedev wasn't "allowed" to do this, then I'm sure he would lose the motivation.
(That's why I prefer doing stock tracks rather than project work).

But we can definitely agree that if everyone would let everyone do their own thing, then yes I think that would be beneficial for everyone.  :)

Quote from: andycadley on 09:59, 02 January 25Money, I'd say, is probably the biggest demotivater.

I've also had this thought, and therefor wondered if it would be possible to use an advertisement model instead, like seen on mobile platforms.
Meaning, the game would be free, but it would show a fullscreen advertisement at the start.
Or even embed advertisement in the level graphics somehow, which would probably be my own preference. :)
Imagine some kind of side scrolling race game, with graphics of city buildings, and billboards here and there in that city with posters advertising for some project.
Not necessarily to be payed by the advertiser. It could just be to promote a friend, or another project of your own. In any case, you will logically have gained something extra. Maybe it could work as payment for a free copy of something the advertiser has made.
Just an idea. :)

Quote from: mr_lou on 10:00, 02 January 25

Quote from: roudoudou on 09:43, 02 January 25to let the dev keep the motivation, let the graphic guy do his job, and the musician too ;D

Really?
That's not my experience.  :laugh:
If the gamedev would let the musician do this job, then I'm sure the musician would keep the motivation. To be able to do the music exactly as I want without the gamedev telling me how it should be, helps a lot. But in my experience, the gamedev often has a lot of ideas on how it should sound, and therefor keeps asking for changes. That's not particular motivational for the musician. ;)  And if the gamedev wasn't "allowed" to do this, then I'm sure he would lose the motivation.
(That's why I prefer doing stock tracks rather than project work).

But we can definitely agree that if everyone would let everyone do their own thing, then yes I think that would be beneficial for everyone.  :)

I think the problem there is that the developer often has to take on all the "other" roles, like project manager, designer etc. So they have a creative vision for the entire project, but aren't necessarily always the best at communicating the overall vision. So they ask for some music for a game, imagining something spooky and atmospheric, but get some 90s hardcore disco track that doesn't really "fit" the feel they were aiming for. 

There is also the issue that musicians and artists who haven't necessarily worked on many retro games produce content that isn't necessarily practical. It requires too much memory, CPU time or has other constraints that are harder to convey (the classic one being too many animation frames because the artist understands they've got X KB of memory for frames but doesn't consider the amount of additional state they add to on screen objects etc). 

Quote from: andycadley on 10:44, 02 January 25I think the problem there is that the developer often has to take on all the "other" roles, like project manager, designer etc. So they have a creative vision for the entire project, but aren't necessarily always the best at communicating the overall vision. So they ask for some music for a game, imagining something spooky and atmospheric, but get some 90s hardcore disco track that doesn't really "fit" the feel they were aiming for.

I have no doubt that scenario is a good example of what often happens. The developer having some imagination and expectation of a certain sound, that isn't met. Or the musician wrongly visualising the game.
It speaks in favour of stock music I think: If all the CPC musicians made all their tracks available as stock music, they would effectively be able to do whatever style they wanted. And developers would then be able to browse a large library and find tracks that fits their games, in regards of style, filetype, size and whatever other limitations there might be. Stock music is simply a win/win in my book.
(Remember: Stock music doesn't exclude the possibility of exclusivity).

Quote from: andycadley on 10:44, 02 January 25There is also the issue that musicians and artists who haven't necessarily worked on many retro games produce content that isn't necessarily practical. It requires too much memory, CPU time or has other constraints that are harder to convey (the classic one being too many animation frames because the artist understands they've got X KB of memory for frames but doesn't consider the amount of additional state they add to on screen objects etc).

Graphics is somewhat harder to do as stock graphics. :)  Not completely impossible, but tricky.
Certain title-screens could be from a stock library. Imagine space with stars and a planet and big letter spelling "TITLE". So that only "TITLE" needed to be replaced with the actual title. (Someone should make IndieGameGraphics.com for stock graphics like that. ;)  )

But overall, it's merely about making the ride a less bumpy one for all participants. Developers must have easy access to assets, and creators must have easy ways of offering their assets.

Quote from: andycadley on 09:59, 02 January 25

Quote from: mr_lou on 09:34, 02 January 25Another thing I imagine would motivate devs, is to be able - with relatively little effort - to target multiple platforms? Develop the game, and then be able to produce binaries for Amstrad + ZX Spectrum + MSX + Amiga + whatever. Wouldn't that make everything feel much more "worth it"?
AGD (https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/AGD) that @arnoldemu mentioned is one way of achieving that. But I dunno. Would that be a motivational booster for you, or do you only have eyes for the CPC? :)

Not really. Most of the appeal of retro programming is being able to push the hardware beyond what was perceived capable. Cross platform tools inevitably steer you instead towards a lowest common denominator. Tools like AGD are great if you're not really a programmer and can live within the sandbox they provide, but there's also a reason you can kind of spot an AGD game a mile off.

I don't do a lot of coding. I mostly stick to music. But when I do code, my appeal is not to push the hardware beyond what was perceived capable. My goal is on the fun-factor. It doesn't have to be CPU demanding to be fun.
And if I can target many different platforms, then I definitely will.
My appeal of retro programming is to (try to) recreate that cosy atmosphere we had back then. That actually speaks more for simplistic ("Roland in Time" style) slow loading games than highly optimised games.
Don't get me wrong. Pinball Dreams and Dead on Time absolutely got me as hooked as everyone else too. But there's definitely also been newer games that are impressive from a technical perspective but just utterly boring to play.

As with everything else, we just have different objectives. And that's fine.

Does no one else find it motivating to be able to target multiple platforms with their games?

Quote from: mr_lou on 18:18, 02 January 25Does no one else find it motivating to be able to target multiple platforms with their games?

I'd guess the question here is: Why would it be?

Everyone can "own" every retro platform easily via emulation these days, so you can play any game on whatever system it was designed for. Unless a conversion is going to do something different, there is a lot less of a point. And on the CPC in particular, there are already quite enough quick ports from other systems.

Quote from: andycadley on 10:13, 03 January 25

Quote from: mr_lou on 18:18, 02 January 25Does no one else find it motivating to be able to target multiple platforms with their games?

I'd guess the question here is: Why would it be?

Everyone can "own" every retro platform easily via emulation these days, so you can play any game on whatever system it was designed for. Unless a conversion is going to do something different, there is a lot less of a point. And on the CPC in particular, there are already quite enough quick ports from other systems.

Exactly this! I can't think of anything more annoying that spending 6 months making a game and release it for free for someone on the Internet say: any chances of a port to [insert system here]? No, no chances.

We have access to all systems by just using an emulator. I know some people are very "intense" and hardcore fans but, at least for me, that has the opposite effect.

I'll admit I've often had that thought too: I could just install an emulator for whatever system whatever game was released for. But have never gotten around to it, because other systems just doesn't interest me equally much.
My girlfriend grew up with the C64, and we both had Amiga later, so that's about it. We play Amstrad CPC games and C64 games and Amiga games.

I'm with you on the port thing though. I'd also rather see new games created for the CPC than a port of an old game from another system. But I don't think those two scenarios compare. There's a big difference between releasing a new game for multiple platforms, and porting an old game to another platform.

As to the "why" question, the answer is pretty much the same to most questions about why we do anything with these old platforms: It's fun.
From a developer perspective, I can see how it would be fun to create the same game for many platforms - especially if it doesn't take a lot of work doing so.
It's basically what I do with my music as well; release many different filetype versions of the same track. It's a fun challenge. And it's nice having more potential recipients.
Obviously different developers will have different goals they find intriguing, so I don't expect multiple target platforms to be everyone's cup of tea.

Quote from: mr_lou on 18:18, 02 January 25Does no one else find it motivating to be able to target multiple platforms with their games?

I know this is off-topic here, but in my case I found it very motivating ;D Coding an app or a game in SymbOS, which is then always running on all supported platforms is always fun. Edo never coded for the Amstrad CPC, and Prevtenet never on the MSX, but now you can play their games on both machines.

Back to topic:
A great example is Tenebra: As a big fan of this game I am really glad, that Haplo is always porting it to most of the important retro platforms. TBH I am very lazy in using other emulators, so if it would have only been released e.g. for the Spectrum I would have never tried it.

It's obvious, that this works good for "low-tech" games (e.g. Puzzle etc.), but when speaking about "high-tech" games every port would probably need a larger rewrite to use the specific advantages and capabilities of the platform.

It's not off-topic. :)  It's about what motivates the developer.

But apparently we have two groups of developers here. One that is motivated by being able to target multiple platforms, and one who is more motivated by pushing the CPC beyond what most people thought possible.

So the multiple-platform group should appreciate tools like Multiple-Platform Arcade Game Designer. :)

What other tools helps in relation to targeting multiple platforms?

Quote from: reidrac on 10:29, 03 January 25Exactly this! I can't think of anything more annoying that spending 6 months making a game and release it for free for someone on the Internet say: any chances of a port to [insert system here]? No, no chances.

I think "Sure. I look forward to seeing the results of your port" is the answer in those cases. :laugh: It can be interesting to see the results of someone doing another version and putting their own spin on an idea, but just dumping out a straight port is rarely worth it.

Quote from: andycadley on 12:32, 03 January 25

Quote from: reidrac on 10:29, 03 January 25Exactly this! I can't think of anything more annoying that spending 6 months making a game and release it for free for someone on the Internet say: any chances of a port to [insert system here]? No, no chances.

I think "Sure. I look forward to seeing the results of your port" is the answer in those cases. :laugh: It can be interesting to see the results of someone doing another version and putting their own spin on an idea, but just dumping out a straight port is rarely worth it.

Oh, no. Please! I had one of my MSX games ported a few times and I didn't like it too much :laugh:

I rather be left alone to be honest. People can have their own ideas and draw their own graphics, etc.

Quote from: Prodatron on 11:39, 03 January 25It's obvious, that this works good for "low-tech" games (e.g. Puzzle etc.), but when speaking about "high-tech" games every port would probably need a larger rewrite to use the specific advantages and capabilities of the platform.

In my case, when I make a game for a system, the game is generally designed around that system. If I was making the same game for a different system, the result would be different and, to some extent, a different game.

Personally I don't like making "portable 8-bit games". The only few cases of games that I made a version for different systems it was really a remake that only kept the core idea, and the more complex the game was, the less port it was.

I can see a lot of new games released or close to be released on CPC and for the GX4000. 
The motivation of the developers looks to be intact. I love the @reidrac and @Axelay games.

Quote from: Egg Master on 13:14, 03 January 25I can see a lot of new games released or close to be released on CPC and for the GX4000.
The motivation of the developers looks to be intact. I love the @reidrac and @Axelay games.

Feel free to rephrase it to "How can we boost the motivation?"

I notice in @reidrac's signature, there's a link to a coffee donation. I'm gonna assume if I buy him a cup of coffee, it'll boost his motivation, even if just a little. So that one can be added to the list as well: Buy developers a cup of coffee. :)

Of course if you find most of the development process just a massive chore, maybe it's time to find a different hobby which you actually do enjoy ;D

AGD: I mentioned this because it opens up game making to more developers and I'm seeing more games make by this which is great to see. It also avoids having to know how to draw sprites and make the game engine which could put somebody off if they had to do that. I didn't really consider multiple platforms when I mentioned it but for some developers that is what encourages them.

Port/Conversion: I think a port is fine for those developers that choose it. It can help a developer who has worked on another platform (e.g. Spectrum) investigate the CPC. A port of an existing game is also well defined because the original gameflow and gameplay is there to copy or translate, it may in some part, be something a single developer can do if they haven't got a team yet.

Boring bits: I maybe made it sound worse than it is and it's not that much really. I guess I am making people aware as I see many started games on many platforms that don't progress to completion. I see those as a mix of releasing information too early and perhaps it got to a boring bit or perhaps time took over?

Helping: I accept I can't make music or sound effects or graphics and if I've got a game engine, I've got the mechanics of it working, I've got one level working, but then for me making more content is difficult and this is where I'd need to team up with multiple people to turn it into a fun game. I admire @reidrac and others who can do much more including design.

Having being lucky to create several big projects, and finish them, I can tell you this:

• There is nothing you can do to boost your motivation, but boost it yourself. You may count on one preview, but don't rely on a constant stream of videos and the like... You're only wasting your time doing these videos. Plus it ruins the surprise.
• You must chose your project carefully, something that you really want to use/play. Orion Prime is still a game I can play with great pleasure, because it's set in a world I love, a type of game I love, and I'm proud of the way it was executed (because I did it my way, not asking anyone else how they would want it to have it).
• Think that you will spend maybe years working on it. Maybe start designing the game, set it aside, and see if it goes back to your mind after a few weeks. If yes, it means the project is important to you.
• Indeed working with a reliable and motivated team is important, but it's a double-edged sword. For Orion Prime, Sylvestre was a force to be reckoned with. He took my graphics and enhanced them, plus he brought a lot of technique, and boosted the introduction and ending. I did everything I could humanly do (code, music, texts, designing the 3D world), but without Sylvestre's magic, the game wouldn't have been as good visually, that's a fact.
• However, for Imperial Mahjong, it was a whole other story. Sylvestre started with many ideas, which I implemented, but in the end, lost motivation, and we nearly abandoned the game. I finally managed him to create a watered-down introduction (which was supposed to be more complex), but I was lucky it could be done... So yeah, choose your partners wisely! Maybe make sure they can be "replaced", however graceless it sounds, but it may happen that someone motivated won't be anymore two years later...
• As for the "multi-machine", I do not believe in it at all. Most conversions I see are raw, and never use the machine full capabilities. So you end up with an average game on all platforms. Most of us have one machine they are specialists of, and many take interest in one or two other machines, without knowing how to program them. And bringing a specialized team brings back the same problems: finding motivated people, blabla... Some years ago, someone wanted to port Orion Prime on MSX. I told him that was great, that I would happily share all the resources I have, but I wouldn't have time to help him with understanding the code, the CPC specificities, and so on. That would have been so much work on my side! He did answer he would think about it, but had no news since. I guess he wasn't so motivated after all... :)

Quote from: Targhan on 22:52, 03 January 25

• As for the "multi-machine", I do not believe in it at all.

I am glad, that at least your player is multi-platform. :D

Quote from: Targhan on 22:52, 03 January 25Having being lucky to create several big projects, and finish them, I can tell you this:

• There is nothing you can do to boost your motivation, but boost it yourself. You may count on one preview, but don't rely on a constant stream of videos and the like... You're only wasting your time doing these videos. Plus it ruins the surprise.
• You must chose your project carefully, something that you really want to use/play. Orion Prime is still a game I can play with great pleasure, because it's set in a world I love, a type of game I love, and I'm proud of the way it was executed (because I did it my way, not asking anyone else how they would want it to have it).
• Think that you will spend maybe years working on it. Maybe start designing the game, set it aside, and see if it goes back to your mind after a few weeks. If yes, it means the project is important to you.
• Indeed working with a reliable and motivated team is important, but it's a double-edged sword. For Orion Prime, Sylvestre was a force to be reckoned with. He took my graphics and enhanced them, plus he brought a lot of technique, and boosted the introduction and ending. I did everything I could humanly do (code, music, texts, designing the 3D world), but without Sylvestre's magic, the game wouldn't have been as good visually, that's a fact.
• However, for Imperial Mahjong, it was a whole other story. Sylvestre started with many ideas, which I implemented, but in the end, lost motivation, and we nearly abandoned the game. I finally managed him to create a watered-down introduction (which was supposed to be more complex), but I was lucky it could be done... So yeah, choose your partners wisely! Maybe make sure they can be "replaced", however graceless it sounds, but it may happen that someone motivated won't be anymore two years later...
• As for the "multi-machine", I do not believe in it at all. Most conversions I see are raw, and never use the machine full capabilities. So you end up with an average game on all platforms. Most of us have one machine they are specialists of, and many take interest in one or two other machines, without knowing how to program them. And bringing a specialized team brings back the same problems: finding motivated people, blabla... Some years ago, someone wanted to port Orion Prime on MSX. I told him that was great, that I would happily share all the resources I have, but I wouldn't have time to help him with understanding the code, the CPC specificities, and so on. That would have been so much work on my side! He did answer he would think about it, but had no news since. I guess he wasn't so motivated after all... :)

Your points 1-3 are so on the mark! :o

Please remember, that whatever works for you may not be what works for other people. Different personality types etc.

I managed to complete 8-bit Memoirs (https://www.8bitmemoirs.com/) because it was exactly what @Targhan says: A project I really wanted to do, and had been wanting to do for many many years before getting started. It took 5 years to create, and I never lost the motivation along the way. No doubt that is key to successfully completing a project.

However, it would definitely have boosted my motivation even more if someone would have contributed to the project. The original idea was for it to be a community project, where all the different parts should be made by different people in the CPC community. The gameplay videos and illustrations and other parts should have been created by someone else. I reached out to several members in the community but never heard back from anyone, except many one who declined. That was definitely demotivating. Just not enough to kill the project.
It was also rather demotivating to witness someone in the community deliberately try to sabotage the project, for whatever reason. But still not enough to kill the project.
I should also add, that one of the big motivators of my 8-bit Memoirs project, was to be able to target multiple platforms, by using Blu-ray. Software players on both Windows, Linux and Mac as well as gaming consoles like Xbox One and Xbox Series X and PlayStation 3, 4 and 5, not to forget normal blu-ray players. Definitely a motivator to know that it would be viewable on so many platforms.

So in that sense, I agree that it helps a lot if the project is one you are really really passionate about. But that doesn't mean there won't be motivators and demotivators. It merely means these motivators and demotivators doesn't make much of a difference in the case of such a project.

But all projects can't be like that. Sometimes (at least for some people) it's beneficial to work with other people who are equally passionate (and of course stays relatively passionate through-out the whole project). The idea there is that each person inspires the rest of the team. The graphics guy inspires the coder with his graphics. The coder inspires the musician with his engine. The musician inspires the graphics guy and coder. That way each team member keeps the other team members interested. At least in theory.
It will of course have the opposite effects if the other team members doesn't like what you do. It's about finding a good match I suppose.

But even if you manage to find a project that you really really like, so you can do everything alone with lots of constant passion - or if you manage to find a perfect team and the project is completed and it's awesome - you can still get hit with demotivators after release that'll affect whether or not you'll want to start up any new CPC projects in the future.

We all know the smartass who'll be the first to complain about something in the game on a random forum. Sometimes even without having tried the game. If more people agree with such a smartass, it can be pretty demotivating to see that your project just isn't appreciated.
And say you did a lot of work to create a nice physical edition of your hard work, then it's of course also demotivating to see your game just being bootlegged.

As for the smartass, one way of reducing chances of such posts is to have a good betatester team - and listen to the input from this team. Take betatest feedback seriously. Especially when you don't agree with them.
Regarding piracy, many ideas are listed in the other thread.

I'll probably make a list that summarise all ideas later.

Quote from: Prodatron on 00:46, 04 January 25

Quote from: Targhan on 22:52, 03 January 25

• As for the "multi-machine", I do not believe in it at all.

I am glad, that at least your player is multi-platform. :D

Yes, definitely a motivation to use the Arkos Tracker filetype is that my music can be used on all of those platforms. :)

Alright, here's a summary of all ideas brought to the table.

Motivational factors:

• Having tools to speed up the boring parts of development
• Being able to create releases for multiple target platforms
• Receiving a cup of coffee, or some other token of appreciation every now and then; a sale or donation or even just positive feedback
• Being able to continue work on the game quickly whenever there's a little time
• Having fast'n'easy access to assets like music and graphics, and/or be in contact with artists who will and can deliver assets
• Having fast'n'easy access to easy look-up knowledge databases, and/or be in contact with other people who can help
• Being challenged technically and creatively (just enough to still be able to solve everything)
• Achieving technical results that people didn't think was possible / haven't seen before
• Being allowed to do things his own way, without being told to do things differently. Goes for both the developer, musician and artist
• Finding a project where (almost) all parts are interesting
• Avoiding pressure from people impatient for the project to be completed: Don't announce the project before it's (almost) complete
• Preventing piracy of the finished project

Ideas for pocket monetization:

• Sales of physical editions
• Offer digital download version for "Pay what you want"
• Create a "Buy me a cup of coffee" donation option. Insert in-game QR code for a link to donations
• Add in-game advertisement for a friend's project. Either as a start screen or as part of the level graphics

Ideas for preventing or reducing piracy:

• Prevent bootlegs of cartridge version by not offering a digital download CPR file, and adding a check in the DSK version for current cartridge inserted. Fill up the DSK with junk data in between actual data.
• Insist on payment for the game and personalise each copy sold.
• Insist on payment for the game and add a hidden fingerprint for each sold that'll make it easy to identify which copy was pirated.

Quote from: mr_lou on 09:32, 05 January 25

• Being allowed to do things his own way, without being told to do things differently. Goes for both the developer, musician and artist

That approach is an absolute no-go for me. Sometimes, things aren't always enjoyable, and it's important to stick to the original intent.
My suggestion would be to involve a trusted friend and have him take on the role of the project's designer. That person would serve as the driving force behind the project, he validates that the new developments remain coherent etc. Of course, discussions and input are still welcome!

Quote from: mr_lou on 09:32, 05 January 25

• Avoiding pressure from people impatient for the project to be completed: Don't announce the project before it's (almost) complete

Why not? It allows you to gather early feedback, giving you insight into what people might want to see or expect. Additionally, you may receive positive feedback, which reassures you that people are anticipating something worthwhile -- and that's a great motivator!

--
One more thing that isn't on your list: I would strongly recommend avoiding having two projects (or more!) in parallel as much as possible. Personally, as a developer, this is one of my biggest challenges. I often wish I could dedicate more time to parallel tasks, but I can't because I need to stay focused on finishing the project I committed to work on.

Everyone has their own preferences. The above list is just a summary of input from different people. No one will agree with all of it.

Let me say my personal experience, it may be useful.

For me the main motivation is that I feel very good and creative, when I manage to make something or a nice idea comes up.

Very motivating is, as for my text adventure games, the fact that I co-operate with musician, or image makers, or other people, that contribute in a very professional way. When I see this, I say to myself that I also have to become better.

Also, the fact that someone makes an article for one of my games, is also very motivating.

What I don't really like is the excessive testing of te games (but its part of the process), and also creating videos, trailers, walkthroughs, posting links in relevant forums, facebook, etc. But this is also part of the process, as the people has to be informed of a new game.

For me, the best motivation is what has happened, but does not happen so often, is to receive a mail of someone that has played my game and enjoyed it.
 
I prefer this 1 mail more, than 100 likes of people seeing a video, but although liked it, did not play the game. I understand of course that all have limited time, no blame at all. But, unfortunately, the general situation everywhere (not only in Amstrad or in games) is most about make a like, and not so much of play and enjoy. 

Personally, I am preparing Rodolfo 3, but the truth is that, after that one, I do not know if I can continue after 7 years of programming. Life gets more busy, more obligations, and also I feel that there is no need to produce something worse than the already made projects I have made. We will see!

Never, ever give up stuff for free.

I think developers are not just coders, but the whole team. Set goals to achieve, step by step.
Don't think you have better ideas than others because you program. Hire a game designer (if it's a game).

The motivation is the project. Have fun!

As developer, I'll state some of my viewpoints:
- CPC releases are not a business. It took me 7 years to finish Alcon 2020, and also a lot of work for TotO as artist and designer/tester. Targhan made his part with the big amount of tracks in the game soundtrack. And the earnings from the physical editions where barely enough to pay the manufacturing.
- In short, if you want to make a CPC game for the sake of the money, just forget it.
- In the hardware I develop it's mostly the same. The sales barely pay all the prototype iterations and manufacturing costs. Just enough to start the next project.
- I agree the money it's more a demotivating element than a motivating one, since it turns a hobby into a job. Sadly it's needed to keep the wheel turning and develop more projects.
- Respect to the main subject, which is developer motivation, my opinion is motivation must come from the developer himself, in either the form of fun or challenge. There is little external people can do except maybe healthy competition with other developers to get the greatest technical achievement.
- As a last word, a nice ecosystem of tools must exist, which fortunately is true in the case of the CPC.

Happy new year!

@abalore , 100% agree!

I think everyone here agrees about CPC gamedev not being a financial gain whatsoever. Most devs has had huge projects that took years to complete, and no one was/is doing it for the money - because there aren't any. And we know. And it's fine. Not why we do it.

Obviously there'll always be personal motivation. Otherwise we'd never start the project up. But that's not to say external factors won't add to the motivation, or kill some of it.
If your motivation is never affected by external factors whatsoever, then you have either found an extremely intriguing project that you are extremely passionate about, or else you've been blessed with a personality type that just doesn't care, in which case we are many who envies you on that. Good for you.

It looks to me like everyone here actually agrees with the list. Different phrasing, but everyone basically says the same. The only difference is that some prefer to do everything alone, while others prefer a team that motivates each other. Otherwise there seems to be agreement on all other points.

...though, it could be interesting to turn the list into a multiple-choice poll just to see which of them are most attractive.  :)

How to keep creators motivated?

Easy: Be polite, be nice, be positive, be supportive. Provide serious feedback.

That's what I do at least.

Or least shut your mouth if you don't like it. Let people play how they like. :)

Quote from: GUNHED on 00:47, 07 January 25How to keep creators motivated?

Easy: Be polite, be nice, be positive, be supportive. Provide serious feedback.

Of course. I can't believe I didn't add that one to the list: "A polite, friendly positive and supportive community".

Can't be repeated enough. As the line goes in the old movie Road House: "Be nice". :)

I'm discussing this topic on other sites as well. Some say that what they'd really like is simply to know that people are playing their game, and how many people like the game. This becomes impossible to know, if someone pirates their game, or in some other way distributes the game. Then the developer has no way of knowing how much interest there really is.

So.... what other ways can be used to let the developer know how much interest there is in his game?

Here's one idea:
When a game is over, a QR code could be shown that the player could scan in order to submit his highscore to the Internet, to be viewable on a website dedicated to the game. (Seen done already on the Atari Jaguar).

Other ideas? Let's hear them.

I think some people get overly hung up on piracy. If you're giving it away for free, it's not really worth worrying about. Maybe just include something on the loading screen/title screen suggesting people get in touch or share videos on YouTube if they enjoy the game. 

I blame social media for giving people the notion they actually need accurate metrics on impact rather than just letting something out into the world and letting people do with it as they will. Honestly some of the nicest feedback I ever got was from someone who contacted me a told me they were using a utility I'd not only written many years before, but had completely forgotten about.

Quote from: mr_lou on 12:58, 07 January 25I'm discussing this topic on other sites as well. Some say that what they'd really like is simply to know that people are playing their game, and how many people like the game.

Personally, I would be interested to know that, too. But its not so easy to find out.
Although I dont have any tool to show me the downloads in my site, as I just use google drive to upload, its not the number of downloads that matters.
Number of downloads is one thing and people who have enjoyed/completed one game is another thing.

For me, the best way, if we refer to free retro games, to give motivation, is to send a mail to a creator mentioning that we played the game, and politely say things we liked or did not like.

Quote from: skylas on 17:35, 07 January 25

Quote from: mr_lou on 12:58, 07 January 25I'm discussing this topic on other sites as well. Some say that what they'd really like is simply to know that people are playing their game, and how many people like the game.

For me, the best way, if we refer to free retro games, to give motivation, is to send a mail to a creator mentioning that we played the game, and politely say things we liked or did not like.

Yes, I agree. But there's a golden rule about achieving your goals when it depends on other people: You gotta make it ridiculously easy for them.
Believe it or not, sending an e-mail to the developer is actually too much to ask for. Very few people will do that.

Which is why a QR code solution would be "better", in that it would give more results. It is the absolute easiest-for-the-player solution you can do. No typing. Just scan. No obligations. Anonymous. Quick.

Could be done as an option in the main menu: "Gimme sum feedback!" -> "Please rate my game". Allow a choice of 5 stars or something, and then provide a QR code.
But could also be done as such a highscore solution. The more highscore uploads, the more people obviously like the game.

For me it's not even that many people would like my game, but just progressing towards having one done, which is difficult because of... life.

Of course, once you have made a game, you'd like people to enjoy it, but as I said above, lack of progress making the game is what sends my motivation down the drain.

Quote from: Targhan on 22:52, 03 January 25So yeah, choose your partners wisely!

Oh boy, that's so true. And easily overlooked.

Quote from: robcfg on 19:14, 07 January 25For me it's not even that many people would like my game, but just progressing towards having one done, which is difficult because of... life.

I think all of us can relate to that.

Quote from: robcfg on 19:14, 07 January 25Of course, once you have made a game, you'd like people to enjoy it, but as I said above, lack of progress making the game is what sends my motivation down the drain.

And I can definitely relate to that one too. Not having the time and energy is demotivating.

Which is exactly why I'm "hunting" for motivational factors and other good ideas.

And that reminds me, something that's missing from the list: Win the lottery so we can quit our jobs and thus free up time and energy for retro gamedev. :)

Quote from: mr_lou on 18:19, 07 January 25Believe it or not, sending an e-mail to the developer is actually too much to ask for. Very few people will do that.

Which is why a QR code solution would be "better", in that it would give more results. It is the absolute easiest-for-the-player solution you can do. No typing. Just scan. No obligations. Anonymous. Quick.

Could be done as an option in the main menu: "Gimme sum feedback!" -> "Please rate my game". Allow a choice of 5 stars or something, and then provide a QR code.
But could also be done as such a highscore solution. The more highscore uploads, the more people obviously like the game.

I know that few people would be send by few people. Also, your idea is is not bad.
But generally, I prefer qualitative measure that quantitative. Having a 2/10 or 9/10, a single number, cannot make the developer understand what was good and what was bad.
But, of course, people don't have time these days and they are taught to evaluate generally in numbers only. Useful, but not as useful as a little text!

I'm not disagreeing that an e-mail would be nicest.
But if you have to choose between nothing or a number.....?
Or, you could make the QR code present a textbox that the player could write something in - optionally.

Quote from: mr_lou on 07:44, 08 January 25I'm not disagreeing that an e-mail would be nicest.
But if you have to choose between nothing or a number.....?
Or, you could make the QR code present a textbox that the player could write something in - optionally.

Yes, I know you do not disagree, as I do not disagree with you!
Addition of textbox seems useful  to me.

Interesting subject, biggest key to success is not skills to me but how to keep myself working on demos or any other thing. I am usually very low on that.
Now, I might be out of subject as the original answer revolved around how to motivate developers in the community in general, through financial ways or other. But my thought is how I manage to keep myself working on something.

Lately it has gone much better, despite the struggle of "I really wanna do the dream projects I have in mind but somehow I can't put myself to sit down and code instead of playing another run of Dark Souls". Also worse when working at home and then my home PC is at the same desktop.

But since last few months I found another way that made me more productive than usually and for several months. It started as a habit, some days of the week after work or an early Sunday, I'd put my laptop in my bag and head to some place in the city, first it was the local library, then a cafeteria. I'll order my coffee and I'll be in a relaxed mood where I might open my laptop and even stare at code. Usually the flow starts and I don't feel this dread of "I could finish this but I could also rest, play videogames or watch a movie". I am just there for a goal but also as a more relaxed free state, where I drink my coffee and open my laptop.

It might have been a bit awkward, but it works so well. I have done enormous work on some yet to be released projects (a big DOS Pentium demo, 3DO coding and whole ports of 3DO projects on PC) and of course my recent CPC demo. I look back, the first commit was late September. And I kept frequent updates in this project almost every day. Usually most of my project is some effect I worked for a month or a week, then abandoned, then a last week decided to connect things together in a lousy way. But this demo was a bigger more concentrated effort for almost 3 months. And imagine pure z80 assembly on winape32, and I am on a cafeteria in the UK as a frequent guest and someone might be peaking on the screen and see the familiar blue screen. Nobody asked me about it yet :)

p.s. I try to also recreate this by leaving my work/home PC desk, going to my living room and opening my laptop with some coffee. Sometimes weather is so cold or wet in the UK that I cancel my cafeteria visit. But sometimes I do it despite the weather because it's also psychology good to get out of home and then code flows better naturally without much pressure.

The secret of success is just to make the first step  :)