avatar_JimmyChan2022

If you had to choose 1, 8 bit micro as the best all around?

Started by JimmyChan2022, 14:36, 03 July 22

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Gryzor

I always found that the answer to the question is "too little, too late". Indeed what we consider as best machines were behind their era when they appeared, with the exception perhaps of the MSX2. Too bad, really... 

Axelay

I think the question was which was best all round though, not which was most technically advanced.  To go back to the original question, I think it would have been a bit odd to go recommending something more technically advanced if it's barely available and poorly supported as a best all round platform.

And on that, I think the original question itself sort of had a UK centric basis when talking about 'which of the 3' would you recommend.  The various platforms performed wildly differently in different markets back then.

ComSoft6128

If this is a question of what was best "back in the day" then it is a software question.
And if it a software question then the 6128 (and to a lesser extent the 464) wins hands down.
The C64 had some very good software but was limited by its memory + you had to buy disk drive.
The Spectrum was a games machine.
The MSX failed because it didn't survive in the market place long enough to build significant software support.

TotO

To put things into context, 8-bit computers were originally introductory machines for programming. All offered BASIC by default. It was often necessary to have to buy a cassette or floppy disk player alongside to be able to go further and record one's own programs, or even use others. These machines often shared the family TV set (see period advertisements) to highlight their uses.

Even if video games were able to popularize them with the general public, they were rarely good at this task compared to game consoles, and some of these machines were more likely to be used also for professional use by offering softwares. This is why it is important to consider versatility and their commercial success, and not technical specifications which do not speak for everyone.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

eto

Quote from: Axelay on 09:33, 11 November 22I think the question was which was best all round though, not which was most technically advanced.  To go back to the original question, I think it would have been a bit odd to go recommending something more technically advanced if it's barely available and poorly supported as a best all round platform.

And on that, I think the original question itself sort of had a UK centric basis when talking about 'which of the 3' would you recommend.  The various platforms performed wildly differently in different markets back then.

100% agreed. The question "which was the best all around" is extremely closely linked to "availability".

Even today, I would only vote for a system that has at least an acceptable availability of hardware, software (that leverages the hardware), information and an active community around that system. 

Back in the 80s it was even more important as I could only get, what was available in my area or at least my region - and for an affordable price. That's not only the hardware. It's also the software and maybe even more important: information. What do you do with a system when you don't get information? Can't share experiences with anyone? Don't get help when things go wrong?



Prodatron

Quote from: ComSoft6128 on 09:54, 11 November 22The MSX failed because it didn't survive in the market place long enough to build significant software support.

Maybe if you are in the UK or in Germany you could have this feeling. But of course the MSX didn't fail, with 9 million sold units it had 3x the success of the CPC (3 millions).

If you would ask me, what was the best choice in the 80ies in my region, then the C64 was the 100% winner here. Everyone had one, everyone wanted to swap games, and beside the huge amount of good games there were great tools available as well like GEOS and its applications.

GRAPHICAL Z80 MULTITASKING OPERATING SYSTEM

WacKEDmaN

does a sega master system count?!

for me it would have to be a 6128

we had c64s aswell as the 464 ..friend had a 6128 i used to go visit her just to use her cpc :P
i never really liked the c64s colours..always prefered the cpc

...mmmm sega vdp addon for cpc.... ...i wonder...

ComSoft6128

Quote from: Prodatron on 11:35, 11 November 22
Quote from: ComSoft6128 on 09:54, 11 November 22The MSX failed because it didn't survive in the market place long enough to build significant software support.

Maybe if you are in the UK or in Germany you could have this feeling. But of course the MSX didn't fail, with 9 million sold units it had 3x the success of the CPC (3 millions).

If you would ask me, what was the best choice in the 80ies in my region, then the C64 was the 100% winner here. Everyone had one, everyone wanted to swap games, and beside the huge amount of good games there were great tools available as well like GEOS and its applications.
Yes I was just a little Eurocentric in relation to the MSX.
Regarding the C64 - I knew a few people here that owned one but again it was used as a games machine.
Have a look at these covers to give you an idea of the market it was aimed at in the UK:

https://archive.org/details/commodoreuser-magazine

At random I looked thru issue 48 and found not a single review of serious software.

GEOS is remarkable but how many C64 owners in Europe actually used it on a regular basis?

eto

Quote from: WacKEDmaN on 12:34, 11 November 22does a sega master system count?!
for an all around 8bit? ;-) 

Quote from: Prodatron on 11:35, 11 November 22then the C64 was the 100% winner here.
It was the most successful by far. I guess from 8bit owner I know at least twice as many owned a C64 than a CPC. But from those that owned a CPC at least half of them used it not only for games. From the Commodore guys only a single one knew more than how to start a game. And he owned a C128D. 

Sure, there is great software for the C64 - but it had some limitations which made it (imho) painful to use for anything remotely serious.

To find the best "All around" machine it would probably make sense to find a couple of categories and rate each machine on that category, from 0-10.

At the end, you can draw a graph from these ratings. And the best allrounder will not necessarily be the computer with the highest average rating - but the one that is constantly in the high rankings. 

People might also rank each category. To some it will be more important to do serious stuff, others will appreciate the games are best and care less about development. Or for some "availability" is not crucial, they just want to compare the facts. Just put the categories into the ranked order and as long as "your" computer is constantly high in the important categories, everything is good. 

Categories could be:

affordability of full set-up (computer, storage, monitor)

Suitability for 
- games
- graphics 
- sound
- text processing
- learning
- developing
- database

availability of
- hard- and software, information
- expansions
- mass storage


TotO

Quote from: WacKEDmaN on 12:34, 11 November 22does a sega master system count?! [...] mmmm sega vdp addon for cpc.... ...i wonder...
The Master System VDP had to be inside a "SC-5000" computer if Sega does. The SC-3000 was based upon the TI VDP found into the MSX range of computers and ran the SG-1000 games. With that, Sega/Yeno was able to sold the best 8-bit entertainment computer using the Mark-III game cartridges. The Amstrad CPC was not based on that at all to expect to be "better" if using it.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

HAL6128

Following the market in the 80th: C64 was the best.
...proudly supported Schnapps Demo, Pentomino and NQ-Music-Disc with GFX

TotO

Quote from: HAL6128 on 14:27, 11 November 22Following the market in the 80th: C64 was the best.
If the market was based upon a videogame console with a keyboard, sure.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

Prodatron

8bit home computer ranking...

Market success (source):
1. C64 (12mio)
2. MSX (9mio)
3. ZX Spectrum (5mio)
4. Atari 8bit (4mio)
5. CPC (3mio)

(I wouldn't call the Apple II a homecomputer? otherwise it would be #3)

Power:
1. MSX TurboR, MSX2+
2. Sam Coupe (or maybe #3)
3. MSX2 (or maybe #2)
4. CPC 6128 Plus
5. Enterprise 128
6. CPC 6128

(all Z80 :D )

GRAPHICAL Z80 MULTITASKING OPERATING SYSTEM

HAL6128

It's the same as with the shit. Millions of flies cannot be wrong. :D

Interesting second statistics.
(but who cares,... Amstrad CPC - That's why we're here)
...proudly supported Schnapps Demo, Pentomino and NQ-Music-Disc with GFX

ZbyniuR

@HAL6128 - I'm totaly not agree with that opinion. Quantity of sell it not show best machine, it show cheap machine or good seller.
I wasn't rich and I had my 6128 quite late in years 92-96, and every time when I had guest of C64 or Atari XE owners (most popular 8bits in those times in Poland). I could ease make them jealousy, to show them what my CPC can do. There was only two things shamed terrible on CPC: Last Ninja and Speak program, but rest stuff was least draw with C64 or showed supremacy of CPC. Every time after visit they ware bewitched by CPC charm. They had no doubt which machine was better. :)

In STARS, TREK is better than WARS.

VincentGR

That speech prog was my fav.
I made programs that used it, still using it today.

BSC

Quote from: ZbyniuR on 15:54, 11 November 22I had guest of C64 or Atari XE owners (most popular 8bits in those times in Poland). I could ease make them jealousy, to show them what my CPC can do. There was only two things shamed terrible on CPC: Last Ninja and Speak program, but rest stuff was least draw with C64 or showed supremacy of CPC. Every time after visit they ware bewitched by CPC charm. They had no doubt which machine was better.
Wow, my experience was just the opposite. None of the many C64-owning school mates I had would have given the CPC a 2nd glance. Sure, all of them were in for the games, but .. gaming was a thing then and gaming is a huge thing now.
** My SID player/tracker AYAY Kaeppttn! on github **  Some CPC music and experiments ** Other music ** More music on scenestream (former nectarine) ** Some shaders ** Some Soundtrakker tunes ** Some tunes in Javascript

My hardware: ** Schneider CPC 464 with colour screen, 64k extension, 3" and 5,25 drives and more ** Amstrad CPC 6128 with M4 board, GreaseWeazle.

HAL6128

Quote from: ZbyniuR on 15:54, 11 November 22@HAL6128 - I'm totaly not agree with that opinion. Quantity of sell it not show best machine, it show cheap machine or good seller.
I wasn't rich and I had my 6128 quite late in years 92-96, and every time when I had guest of C64 or Atari XE owners (most popular 8bits in those times in Poland). I could ease make them jealousy, to show them what my CPC can do. There was only two things shamed terrible on CPC: Last Ninja and Speak program, but rest stuff was least draw with C64 or showed supremacy of CPC. Every time after visit they ware bewitched by CPC charm. They had no doubt which machine was better. :)




Yeah, I was sarcastic here. MS-DOS was the best selling OS those days but not the best in case of power/features in contradiction to e.g. UNIX.
...proudly supported Schnapps Demo, Pentomino and NQ-Music-Disc with GFX

Gryzor


TotO

Ironically, the main problem of the MSX line was to be manufactured by many companies offering a software compatibility through a very slow firmware, that not really allowed to use the hardware to the best at the risk to not works for most of the users.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

Prodatron

Quote from: TotO on 09:55, 12 November 22Ironically, the main problem of the MSX line was to be manufactured by many companies offering a software compatibility through a very slow firmware, that not really allowed to use the hardware to the best at the risk to not works for most of the users.
The only firmware you have to use is the disc rom, as there are a lot of different mass storage devices.
Everything else is 99,9% compatible on hardware level (as long as you stay with either the VDP9918/9938/9958). But the disc roms of the MSX are pretty fast, so that isn't an issue.

There are some little differences regarding the timing, but you only reach them, when you do hardcore demo coding. I guess Overflow made some experiences with this when he created his great MSX1 demo "IO".
But here we have similiar issues on the CPC with CRTC0/1/2 etc.

Parts of the firmware maybe slow, but as usually when you do fast games and tools, you access the graphic directly and don't use them, the same like we do on the CPC.

GRAPHICAL Z80 MULTITASKING OPERATING SYSTEM

TotO

Quote from: Prodatron on 13:11, 12 November 22The only firmware you have to use is the disc rom, as there are a lot of different mass storage devices. Everything else is 99,9% compatible on hardware level (as long as you stay with either the VDP9918/9938/9958). But the disc roms of the MSX are pretty fast, so that isn't an issue.
Hum... You have to use the BIOS routine to access the hardware to be sure to be 99,9% compatible. Else, the controllers ports can be inverted, the VDP not at the same address, ... Not only for the FDC. A direct access to the hardware limit the compatibility but allows more impressive things.
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

Prodatron

Quote from: TotO on 13:59, 12 November 22Hum... You have to use the BIOS routine to access the hardware to be sure to be 99,9% compatible. Else, the controllers ports can be inverted, the VDP not at the same address, ... Not only for the FDC. A direct access to the hardware limit the compatibility but allows more impressive things.
The VDP is always at the same address, there is the little exception with upgraded MSX1 machines, which have the 9938 at another port range, but this is quite an exotic thing.
All other important ports, like the AY/keyboard/joystick, slot selection, memory mappers are fixed as well:
https://map.grauw.nl/resources/msx_io_ports.php
I learned all this when I ported SymbOS to the MSX, which of course doesn't use the original firmware at all.

GRAPHICAL Z80 MULTITASKING OPERATING SYSTEM

TotO

We had the compatibility problems with Risky Rick because not using the firmware at all. Worst, on a same VDP address, the display worked fine on some MSX but not others because a timing issue. And I remember that @Overflow got problems with its great IO demo. On a msx forum, people said to us we are not properly using the MSX because the game didn't pass a "test program" that check the direct access to the hardware instead of using the firmware. (but it is too slow to use it with advanced tricks) :-\
"You make one mistake in your life and the internet will never let you live it down" (Keith Goodyer)

Prodatron

Ah yes, I forgot that you are an MSX veteran as well :)
There are some system tests you can do at the beginning, which are using the firmware, to find out which kind of system do you have including a possible different VDP9938 address.
Interesting thing with the timing. I am only using the bitmap modes and one hardware sprite. Maybe it is more tricky if you use pattern mode with scrolling and multiple sprites/sprite multiplexing?
On every system there are some fanatics who rebuke you, when you don't follow exactly the rules :D The Enterprise guys are even more fanatic here.
(sorry we are very off-topic now)

GRAPHICAL Z80 MULTITASKING OPERATING SYSTEM

Powered by SMFPacks Menu Editor Mod