SymbOS is so precise and fast even compare to other 16bit OS

[zack4mac]

I am not criticizing I'm using it for a benchmark but Amiga OS on a 500 is slow compared to SymbOS which is so precise and fast? Why? The Amiga is a much later design with extra video chips! or does it come down to programming expertise?

[Prodatron]

I am not criticizing I'm using it for a benchmark but Amiga OS on a 500 is slow compared to SymbOS which is so precise and fast? Why? The Amiga is a much later design with extra video chips! or does it come down to programming expertise?

Thank you for the nice compliment
What I remember is:...
- my Amiga 1000 is slower than SymbOS on a normal CPC

- on a vintage computer meeting in south of Germany I saw an Amiga 4000 with a 25mhz 68040 32bit CPU, which was definitely slower than my FPGA-MSX ("OCM") with SymbOS running at "only" 12Mhz 8bit Z80 speed

[zack4mac]

Hi are you the developer? wow were not worthy, my friend   it is really something special!

I thought I was imaging things! you know your seeing it but cant believe it!  it just goes to show raw chip power is not everything,  just a thought could the OS be transferred "I want it on my Atari ST" to another chip or does it take devotion to one chip type to be able to get the best out of it!

The old saying jack of all trades, master of none!  ?

Cool stuff

[Prodatron]

Yes, I am the developer of SymbOS
It is written in Z80 assembler directly, so porting it to another CPU architecture would require a complete rewrite of almost everything.
So porting SymbOS is limited to other Z80 platforms (currently Amstrad CPC, MSX, Amstrad PCW, Enterprise 64/128).

[VincentGR]

Yes, I am the developer of SymbOS
It is written in Z80 assembler directly, so porting it to another CPU architecture would require a complete rewrite of almost everything.
So porting SymbOS is limited to other Z80 platforms (currently Amstrad CPC, MSX, Amstrad PCW, Enterprise 64/128).

Poor Spectrum 

[MaV]

Prodi hates ZX Spectrums.
I've watched him torture one at a meeting. It wasn't pretty: cigarette butts, water boarding, daily multi-hour sessions of Modern Talking coming from a broken cassette player, you name it. We had to shoot it on site, it was a mercy killing.

(I wonder if that shit is taken for real and provides the beginning of a myth sorrounding Prodatron. )

[MaV]

Back on topic:The Amiga OS is almost completely written in C. Even with double the speed, the support chips and a 16/32-bit processor, the overhead produced by the compiler might make the code quite a bit slower.

Besides, there certainly are quite a lot of differences that make a comparison difficult. For starters, even the first AmigaOS allowed 30 character file names.

But yes, the AmigaOS is not as responsible as one would expect, and SymbOS is clearly faster.

[zack4mac]

Now I'm getting it! this is cool, and now for something off the main topic!


I'm asking you guys because you seem to be in touch with reality, Just out of curiosity do they still teach proper computer studies, programming and hardware at school where you are located or is it just like us in UK Windows I.T how to type and letter and create a spreadsheet!


Not that I still go to school, not for 25 years! where the time go! :sadness:


oh and why doesn't he like the Sinclair,  I used to give Speccy owners a tough time when I had a C64 until I got my ATARI ST then I was the underdog! although my mate still had his Spectrum 16k and said it was better than the Amiga!!!!!!! He must have got a free game with it!

[zack4mac]

Another thing, multi million dollar company could not get somebody to write the OS in assembly! and relied on C for its OS and I'm not on about Microsoft everybody knows they used VB to give windows a solid core.

[LambdaMikel]

To make this thread even a little bit more weird - instead of having Windows with its Core implemented in BASIC   
(@zack4mac THAT is hilarious, where did you get that from?)

To the contrary - I'd say let's have the OS written in an Ultra High Level Language such as Lisp, and design a CPU which can execute the Core Instructions in that High Level Language natively, such as the Lisp Machine could:




In the tradition of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine

So, the problem is the CPU, not the language for writing the OS!! 


The Lisp machine had 90% of its OS written in Lisp, and it could be patched and extended interactively. 

[zack4mac]

That guy did not see the potential in that idea, if only VB Boy had been there to offer him $50. Bill is kicking himself now, another opportunity lost! to dress up and sell another dogs dinner as a succulent tender steak!!


Visual Lisp is fully integrated so with a click of a key, you can try and emulate the OS that does not crash!
Please note the anti crash engine of Vlisp does not work within our OS


But seriously where did I get it from? the man himself VB Willy as he is know by his friends, no joking aside someone came to me in my sleep some guy, I have never heard of before named Gary and boy was he ##@/annoyed with VB Willy!


One of the true geniuses
Mr Gary Kildall RIP

[LambdaMikel]

But yes, the AmigaOS is not as responsible as one would expect, and SymbOS is clearly faster.

You mean RESPONSIVE, right? Just trying to understand what you are saying.

[MaV]

Yes, responsive. 

[zack4mac]

I have just bought a ZX Spectrum but if there is something wrong with it I should know? if its power is too great for one man to tame then I should be warned!

[VincentGR]

I have just bought a ZX Spectrum but if there is something wrong with it I should know? if its power is too great for one man to tame then I should be warned!

Just replace the old regulator with a new one and check the psu.
Run a ram tester too just in case.

[zack4mac]

Why doesn't Prodatron like the ZX Spectrum.  Because I originally owned a C64, unfairly I have never gave them a chance but will do so when I have sorted some space out, recapping my ST and TT at the moment!

[MaV]

Why doesn't Prodatron like the ZX Spectrum.  Because I originally owned a C64, unfairly I have never gave them a chance but will do so when I have sorted some space out, recapping my ST and TT at the moment!

In all honesty, as far as I can remember, he tried contacting Spectrum people to help with a conversion of SymbOS to the Spectrum (most likely the +3 [and Spectrums with a divIDE probably], simply because you need a disk-like system). However, reception was less than optimal, so he gave up.
I was a bit facetious when writing that he hates the Spectrum, he probably feels more or less indifferent to it - and it's been a couple of years since I heard that story from him so it'd be best for him to answer himself if you like more details.

[GUNHED]

Spectrum has 32 KB blocks for banking. But 16 KB are needed. It would be nice to see some tables comparing Symbos and Amiagaos (some stuff like move a window or what ever you think is important). 

[LambdaMikel]

Objectively, in terms of hard benchmark values, I can't imagine that any 8bit system (without custom support chips like the Amiga) stands any chance in an objective comparison, e.g., even for moving a Window, the Amiga can rely on the blitter to move the bitmaps around without CPU involvement, etc.

In terms of subjective "usability" and "reactiveness" of the GUI / desktop, the situation might of course be entirely different!

Personally, I must say that I never noticed any slugginess on the Amiga (if programs are not being loaded from disk of course, but come from the RAM disk), so I am very surprised that people complain about this in comparision to SymbOS...

Actually, the Amiga mouse is probably the most reactive thing ever built, since it is a hardware cursor... I remember that the authors of Lemmings commented on that in the "Commodore Story" documentary, where he said that part of the superior playability of Lemmings of the Amiga version compared to the PC version was due to the hardware cursor / mouse, compared to the PC's software mouse.

But then, I haven't tested / tried SymbOS yet... it is on my list to do so though!

In any case, writing a Z80 operating system from scratch and having the persistence and skill to grow and maintain it over many years (as a hobby) is a really highly admirable job, and both @Prodatron  and  @GUNHED are in a sense 'crazy' (in the most positive sense of the word!!!) that they are engaging in such a monster effort. "Hat off", to both of them!

[zhulien]

But then, I haven't tested / tried SymbOS yet... it is on my list to do so though!

Thanks to Prodatron, he has put an M4 install in the download, just put the folder and few files into the M4 root and boot - it couldn't be easier.


http://www.symbos.de/download.htm


I with the Amiga mouse was working though on my Multi-Play. ( I have had no luck yet with that )

[Docent]

Back on topic:The Amiga OS is almost completely written in C. Even with double the speed, the support chips and a 16/32-bit processor, the overhead produced by the compiler might make the code quite a bit slower.

This is incorrect - most Amiga OS core libraries are written completely or at least partially in assembler. 

[MaV]

This is incorrect - most Amiga OS core libraries are written completely or at least partially in assembler.

I'm not going to argue here, but everywhere I go Amiga users are telling me it's in C with a bit of assembly. So, who am I to believe?

[Docent]

I'm not going to argue here, but everywhere I go Amiga users are telling me it's in C with a bit of assembly. So, who am I to believe?

Exec is completely written in assembly, graphics I believe also is mainly in assembler. Intuition is probably in c, with dos being in c/bcpl+asm (or so said their original developers)
There is commented disassembly of kickstart available on internet and you can clearly see the difference between hand optimized assembly and c-generated assembly.
I've also heard that the old source code of AmigaOS has been leaked a few years ago, so if you are lucky enough you can check it by yourself

[MaV]

Spectrum has 32 KB blocks for banking. But 16 KB are needed.

And that, thanks for reminding!

It would be nice to see some tables comparing Symbos and Amiagaos (some stuff like move a window or what ever you think is important). 

With the help of others maybe, I'm not too knowledgeable on the AmigaOS, just using it to start up games and demos.

[Prodatron]

Why doesn't Prodatron like the ZX Spectrum.  Because I originally owned a C64, unfairly I have never gave them a chance but will do so when I have sorted some space out, recapping my ST and TT at the moment!

TBH I even love the Spectrum! (ok, NOT the colours ) It's the one with one of the most active Z80 scene and very talented people.
I already wrote a ZX Spectrum low level screen driver for SymbOS (256x192x2), as I was always hoping that at one day, there is a possibility to support it as well.
So bad, that its memory system can't handle SymbOS, at least not the usual ones.Spectrum 128 has a 16K banking only at the top, and the "Amstrad" Spectrums have some additional advanced but strange and very limited bankings. At least the 3+ could MAYBE do it, but it is limited to 128K at all (like the Commodore C128) and this sucks.