Author Topic: The State of the CPC Scene  (Read 6176 times)

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Offline Gryzor

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The State of the CPC Scene
« on: 14:42, 08 July 20 »

Based on a discussion I had with a fellow user the other day I wanted to write down my thoughts on the state of the CPC scene in particular, but also the retro scene in general in some aspects.


It's been known for years that the CPC scene, even though relatively small compared to those of the other heavyweights of the Retro pantheon (c64, speccy, Amiga etc) is quite fragmented; basically, in geographical and language terms. We used to have CPCZone and, perhaps, a French forum or something? Even that provided some fragmentation because French users would gravitate around and towards their own site(s). Then the Spaniards broke off and formed their own sub-scene in their own language.


Of course one could argue that users who would not be active otherwise came to the scene precisely because of those French- or Spanish-language communities, but the fragmentation is very real and, for me, problematic. And nowadays we have a *number* of French or Spanish local scenes.


It's a shame, but it's gotten really ridiculous if you take into account other media. I just checked which groups I am a member of in Facebook (which I don't even use):


Amstradiens
Amstrad CPC 464
Amsoft Fans
Amstrad GX4000/PLUS users
Asociacion Amstrad Eterno
Amstrad 4ever
Amstrad Collective
The story of the Amstrad CPC in pixels
Amstrad For Everyone
Amstrad For Sale


Why am I a member there? Damned if I know - I was invited to some, wanted to check out something specific in others, stuff like that, but I rarely visit because -as I said- I don't use Facebook. And every day I get serial email notifications because people will pass through each posting the exact same things.


...and of course, there are MORE in every language. And then you have Discord, and almost EVERYONE who has a YouTube channel thinks they've GOT to have their own, because obviously IRC is not enough? Granted, a chat service is different from a forum-like community and has its own use, but having different servers with multiple channels? How one can even manage to follow all that? I use Slack for work, with three or four servers and their corresponding channels and I'm just swamped.


I mean, by this point the scene is a total mess. Everyone wants to be the admin/owner of their own little group/community/whatever. And content is flying left and right and you have to have your antennas on at all times, or else put your hopes in people who follow those communities but will cross-post in others (like here).


I don't have a solution to propose and I don't think anything could work. I just think it's a real pity and a shame...
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Offline Otto

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #1 on: 15:07, 08 July 20 »
Good thoughts, and indeed the fragmentation is a pity.
 
Today, because of the Internet, we CPC fans from all over Europe and partly from all over the world could easily have a common portal (which your CPCwiki and its forum is for me). Thanks to video games and also other media like films, most of us know enough English to be able to communicate.
 
Don't get me wrong: It's great that each nation has its language, and I'm no friend of globalism because it kills tradition and individuality. But while it's always difficult for us who don't speak English as native language, to write or say something in English being more complicated than small-talk, I think it's well worth the effort, because this way we CPC fans can communicate across language barriers.
 
The solution for the CPC scene fragementation problem is simple™ : every single CPC fan could think about sharing his experience in a common "API" language also with other CPC fans who speak another language. This way he could reach many more people, which in-turn would make the CPC scene much stronger.

A bit like: March separated, strike together!
 
P.S. Just today I watched Roudoudou's video about sub-pixeling from the new race-game thread. The video is in French. It was all Greek to me. I got some ideas from the English comments in his source codes and from his desktop he shared in his video, but I thought: what a pity that despite our same interests (CPC) and same operating system (hehe) and living only a few hundreds of kilometers away, I can't extract the valuable infos he wanted to share. Oh yes, a pity.
 
« Last Edit: 15:09, 08 July 20 by Otto »
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Offline SkulleateR

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #2 on: 15:17, 08 July 20 »

...and of course, there are MORE in every language. And then you have Discord, and almost EVERYONE who has a YouTube channel thinks they've GOT to have their own, because obviously IRC is not enough? Granted, a chat service is different from a forum-like community and has its own use, but having different servers with multiple channels? How one can even manage to follow all that? I use Slack for work, with three or four servers and their corresponding channels and I'm just swamped.


I mean, by this point the scene is a total mess. Everyone wants to be the admin/owner of their own little group/community/whatever. And content is flying left and right and you have to have your antennas on at all times, or else put your hopes in people who follow those communities but will cross-post in others (like here).


But CPC Scene is not the only that suffers from this, have a look at the Amiga Scene for example ... you got 68k users, PowerPC users, FPGA and/or emulation users, you got Amiga OS 3.x, 4.x, MorphOS, AROS and everyone thinks his opinion is best .... it´s sad IMHO since we almost all want the same : Having fun with our hobby !!!!!!


But also whats really positive is that we got a LOT new releases of games and apps and really good ones too ;)
« Last Edit: 15:19, 08 July 20 by SkulleateR »
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #3 on: 15:27, 08 July 20 »
@Otto : indeed I'm no friend of globalisation either; I wouldn't even be against people using their own language -which may be the only language they're comfortable with, or the only one they speak; not everyone speaks English, and not everyone who does speaks it fluently. But we could have a single, multi-lingual community. For instance, I follow lots of French and Spanish accounts on Twitter. French, I can speak so it's usually no problem unless they start with their slang. Spanish, I can understand it, but with difficulty. But it helps even seeing a screenshot...

@SkulleateR : oh yes, that fragmentation of the Amiga scene is something else... but at least they all agree to some extend about the good old days :D
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Offline roudoudou

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #4 on: 15:27, 08 July 20 »
P.S. Just today I watched Roudoudou's video about sub-pixeling from the new race-game thread. The video is in French. It was all Greek to me. I got some ideas from the English comments in his source codes and from his desktop he shared in his video, but I thought: what a pity that despite our same interests (CPC) and same operating system (hehe) and living only a few hundreds of kilometers away, I can't extract the valuable infos he wanted to share. Oh yes, a pity.
But after that you found another video in english about subpixel  ;D
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #5 on: 15:30, 08 July 20 »
If nothing else content in other languages is a motivation to learn them :D
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Offline Otto

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #6 on: 15:46, 08 July 20 »
@Otto : indeed I'm no friend of globalisation either; I wouldn't even be against people using their own language -which may be the only language they're comfortable with, or the only one they speak; not everyone speaks English, and not everyone who does speaks it fluently. But we could have a single, multi-lingual community.
Yes, that would be fine, too.
I saw on your forum here that there's already sub-forums in other languages (French and German) and I think it's a great thing to have.
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #7 on: 15:48, 08 July 20 »
Yeah, those were attempts to accommodate people preferring to post in their native language, but very few seemed to care; I don't know what to make of this...
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Offline ComSoft6128

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #8 on: 15:50, 08 July 20 »
Hi @Gryzor ,

Yes when I came back to the CPC after nearly two decades away I was looking for other CPC users and info on the current state of play. It was irritating to me that there was no centralised information resource listing all the relevant websites etc that were CPC specific - fragmented indeed.
The Wiki, in particular the Forum,  I found to be invaluable as a way of identifying the information, resources and individuals that I needed to help me (re)learn how to get things up and running here again. In fact if I had used the Wiki earlier I would have saved myself a few hundred quid that I wasted on computer repairs that needed done a 2nd time a few months later (thanks @Bryce ).

I would suggest a new category on the main Wiki page - "CPC Info" or similar.
Have a look at this short video (and more importantly the Links underneath it) which is now shown as a Link on all my CPC YT videos.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcem0E97woA
« Last Edit: 15:56, 08 July 20 by ComSoft6128 »
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Offline llopis

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #9 on: 15:58, 08 July 20 »
I see where you're coming from, but I actually don't have a problem with it. What exactly would we gain from a single, centralized resource? We would definitely lose a lot.


In general, I prefer smaller communities, so that fits with my preferences better. Also, each community has a slightly different feel and goal to it. When I want deep hardware talk about the CPC, I tend to come here. When I'm discussing some recent homebrew game, I'll probably use a FB group, etc, etc.


Having said that, I feel that CPCWiki is still kind of the main hub of this network of CPC communities. The Wiki itself helps a lot with that positioning and the forums are a natural growth around it. If anything, maybe we should try keeping one of the pages in the Wiki with a list of all those communities, so people can find the subset of them they prefer to use.
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Offline ComSoft6128

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #10 on: 16:08, 08 July 20 »
"Having said that, I feel that CPCWiki is still kind of the main hub of this network of CPC communities. The Wiki itself helps a lot with that positioning and the forums are a natural growth around it. If anything, maybe we should try keeping one of the pages in the Wiki with a list of all those communities, so people can find the subset of them they prefer to use."

Exactly!
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Offline pelrun

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #11 on: 16:08, 08 July 20 »
We've probably got it better now than we ever did.


English, French, German and Spanish CPC users have always been segregated due to language, but at least these days we can go to each other's forums and use Google Translate. I'm actually surprised at how many people are happy to be here and use English even though it's not their first language!


Is it inconvenient? Sure. But at least it's accessible.
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Offline reidrac

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #12 on: 16:35, 08 July 20 »
Having multiple sites is not a problem, but with that fragmentation of an already small-ish community, what you get is lots of forums that are almost dead most of the time.

Seems like a lot of people have moved to FB, Discord or Telegram (or anything else; but these seem to be more popular); and forums aren't a fancy thing anymore. I'm mostly active here and Twitter, but I see other forums in Spanish or French and they are very quiet most of the time.

I don't know what is the answer, really. I guess we all are busy, or somewhere else. I get way more response when I release a game on Twitter than here (or the Spanish forum that I usually post about the release); and according to Poly Play sales, if there are people out there, they may not like supporting new games (or my games, at least).

To be honest, I haven't been here long enough, so I don't know if this is new or part of a regular cycle.

@ComSoft6128 you have missed resources in there. Why not just use http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Links ? May be needs to be updated, but that's easy to do by almost anyone. Actually, I don't see a link to my site  :picard:
« Last Edit: 16:38, 08 July 20 by reidrac »
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Offline Otto

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #13 on: 17:43, 08 July 20 »
Yeah, those were attempts to accommodate people preferring to post in their native language, but very few seemed to care; I don't know what to make of this...
For CPC things concerning local topics I definitely would use my language's sub-forum.
 
However, since usually I want to read from and write to as many CPC users as possible (which are not that many anyway), I usually prefer to use the English main-forum. To help the anti-fragmentation. :-)
 
By the way, I think one German sub-forum would be enough, like the one French sub-forum. The current many German subforums are more difficult to watch in order to see if new articles were posted.
 
Maybe a Spanish user would like create a poll to see if a Spanish sub-forum here on Cpcwiki-forum would be appreciated? Provided you, Gryzor, as main-forum admin would like the idea. I'm asking because the Spanish CPC developers and users seem to be a majority.
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Offline VincentGR

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #14 on: 18:49, 08 July 20 »
A forum is a must, posts don't disappear like farts in the wind (discord, fb, etc)
Multiple sites also is not such a big problem as many users are feeling better by speaking their own language.
I would like this site to be in Greek but I wouldn't have met so many friendly chaps as I did.


As for the thing about everyone makes he's own site/server/channel after visiting another one... you know, this is the internet and not only our community.


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Offline mr_lou

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #15 on: 19:04, 08 July 20 »
I remember when I learned that the french and spanish people were rather active on the CPC, I had 3 thoughts - in the following order:

  • Oh bummer! Why don't they wanna use english to include everyone? I wanna read this diskmag!!  :(
  • ...wow those french and spanish dudes sure are active on the CPC! I was clearly born in the wrong country.......
  • .............Ok I need to learn french and spanish....

Since most people in Denmark knows english, I didn't understand that many french and spanish folks simply don't know english, so at first I thought it was a pride thing. Like "no we don't want you english dudes to be included in this!".  I realized later that it's of course a different reality.

So language fragmentation is unavoidable.
I'd still love to learn french and spanish solely for CPC reasons, but I know I'll never find the time.

Maybe a better solution would be to find more translators to translate various CPC productions? I mean, why not?
Not sure what it would take to organize something like that. And maybe it would require payment too. But I think that's my best bet of bringing the whole community more together: Translate games and utilities and diskmags. Everyone who'd like an english version of a certain production could pay someone € 1 EUR each to translate it. Or maybe € 2 EUR depending on (lack of) interest.

But anyway, fragmentation isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I think it can be a good thing.
It's nice to have a selection. Especially when you have a falling in with someone on one server, where the admins didn't take your side of things. If there were no other options you might feel forced to turn your back on the CPC - and that would be bad, mkay.
So I welcome multiple smaller servers.

Personally I'm only using CPCwiki though. But that's simply because I don't use Facebook. I was on Xyphoe's Discord server though, but I left it (along with a bunch of other Discord servers too) recently because I realized it's a bad idea to be idle on all these servers when I don't have time to keep up with them anyway. No one can keep up with all of these places at the same time. You gotta pick one or two of them.
Being on a lot of servers that you aren't really active in, just means that someone will most likely label you as a terrible person for "self promotion without ever participating otherwise" when you finally do (try to) participate, e.g. because you completed some project you feel is relevant.

I don't think CPCwiki should add more language forums. I think CPCwiki should stay "the english CPC site and forum" - but then look into translations of existing projects instead. I'm not learning french nor spanish even though I'd love to, it's just not going to happen. But I'd love to read (english) diskmags from the french and spanish CPC scene.
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #16 on: 20:16, 08 July 20 »
Hey guys, just to let you know that I'm reading all your comments and am thankful for them. Will be busy till tomorrow afternoon probably, so will reply in bulk then :)

In the meantime, keep them coming!
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Offline deepfb

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #17 on: 21:00, 08 July 20 »
I believe it is more a problem of users leaving forums for FB & Twitter than a language problem*

Last year I had a nasty argument with a well-known spanish user about this. He posted this tweet, and I disliked it.

ae.jpg

English translation: "We have a new Telegram chat, but you need us to invite you. Are you gonna miss it? Tens of Amstrad CPC software developers & fans are already in. Do you want the News before anybody else? Ask us for an invitation"

I couldn't help but starting a row in a Spanish CPC forum, stating that I would never use again Telegram, Whatsapp, Facebook, Discord, Slack, Twitter to announce anything related to the Amstrad CPC, and discouraging our fellow forum users to do the same. Atila/Blackmores replied that message, saying that it was "envy" that motivated my rant. This was his last post in the Amstrad.es forums xD

And this is why, at this point, I am quite sure that the fragmentation you are alluding is not a language problem, but that

  • some people are more comfortable using Twitter and Telegram from their mobile phones, than using forums from their computers (even when they understand that the content they are writing is not public, is not publicly indexed and is hardly retrievable when needed), *and*
  • some other people need to control the community interactions, and they don't want to share this control (and the new social media has eased the creation of these new "channels" that they can manage without interference by the previously existing groups).
I don't know either how to solve the problem, or even if it is a real problem. Maybe it's just I am/we are obsolete :D

*And for the languages, and adding a controversial opinion -please take it humorously: I would love to see a joint CPCWiki-Amstrad.es forum, with Castellano (and even Catalan, Euskera or Galego) sections for users that don't want to learn or use English. Take into account that it is not (just) that we are lazy people xD, but that for us not English-native speakers, it is sometimes hard to write *in English* in places where some users disregard or express displeasure when reading comments by people (usually from the south of Europe ;-) that is not totally aware of the twists of that f****ng language xD In our interactions, we southerners may be lazy, *and* some English native speakers may be little xenophobe & impatient :D
« Last Edit: 21:12, 08 July 20 by deepfb »
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Offline dthrone

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #18 on: 21:33, 08 July 20 »

You do all know that Alan Sugar is a regular lurker here don't you?  He likes to watch how his legacy is evolving.  How do you expect him to read your posts unless you write in English?

Seriously though, as pelrun mentioned earlier, with Google Translate, I have no problem reading French and Spanish articles on websites and posts on forums.  I actually find French technical articles always seem to be written in a very humorous and entertaining style which I really enjoy!   
« Last Edit: 21:35, 08 July 20 by dthrone »
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Offline Nich

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #19 on: 21:35, 08 July 20 »
I mean, by this point the scene is a total mess. Everyone wants to be the admin/owner of their own little group/community/whatever. And content is flying left and right and you have to have your antennas on at all times, or else put your hopes in people who follow those communities but will cross-post in others (like here).

I don't have a solution to propose and I don't think anything could work. I just think it's a real pity and a shame...

Just be glad that the Amstrad CPC scene does not have the same infighting that the ZX Spectrum scene has been going through in the last couple of weeks. I only lurk on the main ZX Spectrum forums but it really disgusts me to see what is happening (@reidrac will know what I mean ;)).
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Offline reidrac

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #20 on: 22:14, 08 July 20 »
Just be glad that the Amstrad CPC scene does not have the same infighting that the ZX Spectrum scene has been going through in the last couple of weeks. I only lurk on the main ZX Spectrum forums but it really disgusts me to see what is happening (@reidrac will know what I mean ;)).

That situation is terrible. But I can also say that every 8-bit community I know has had any sort of drama at some point; and the CPC is not exempt.

Some things I think is probably better if you don't know about them.
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Offline EddieRoyaleWithCheese

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #21 on: 22:27, 08 July 20 »
lots of people I know
used WoS a lot , and then Lee Foghatty took over.


after the vega+ thing, I don't know many who go there now


it is a shame when things get broken. then they can never be together again




a little like family when someone who links every person dies, then no one makes the effort to stay in touch anymore
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Offline EddieRoyaleWithCheese

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #22 on: 22:30, 08 July 20 »
Just be glad that the Amstrad CPC scene does not have the same infighting that the ZX Spectrum scene has been going through in the last couple of weeks. I only lurk on the main ZX Spectrum forums but it really disgusts me to see what is happening (@reidrac will know what I mean ;) ).
could you tell me some more. what has happened? is it next related. I don't follow things now
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Offline dthrone

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #23 on: 11:32, 09 July 20 »
could you tell me some more. what has happened? is it next related. I don't follow things now


Off topic but seems to be surrounding this (https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2829&sid=3a25c0d489126d578194a29487c8e9db)
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Offline TotO

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Re: The State of the CPC Scene
« Reply #24 on: 11:58, 09 July 20 »
Don't forget peoples doing things around the CPC alone, they don't go to forums or other social networks. Only on websites to got hardware and softwares. And peoples who prefer to meet others into the real life at events to share their hobby. They are as many as there are villages, countries and languages around the world.
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