This isn't my cup of tea, but...

[TFM]

What makes you think I don't already have one?
Christ, even your attempts at trolling are utter shit. 

Haha, just look at yourself, the way you behave! As Munchausen pointed it out, bad language is not helpful.
You don't display the slightest amount of good manners, so _no_ you _don't_ have a PhD! 

Who made these statements ?DRAM speed is dictated by the GA, so the 16/24MHz.Either the DRAM support beeing accessed at such speed, or it does not support it and return garbage.The CPC cannot adapt its memory access speed to the speed grade of the DRAM.

Very sad, but true. It's always the same "bunch" of people derailing a thread which is supposed to be helpful. However a thread as this is needed obviously, since there is too much negativity towards new productions. I'm in contact with few guys actually producing something for the CPC, some take bullcrap critiscs more easy, but for the majority it's a motivation-killer.

If we want to have a productive CPC secene (that is stuff running on the CPC, an not videos!) then we do need to appreciate more and bitch less.

But I can't tell this, without getting attacked from the usual suspects.

Maybe we just close this thread right here and it's good. Everything told now I guess.

[ukmarkh]

Everyone, stop feeding the animals!

[1024MAK]

If the animals don't get fed, there will be no milk for the tea  ....

[gerald]

It's always the same "bunch" of people derailing a thread which is supposed to be helpful. However a thread as this is needed obviously, since there is too much negativity towards new productions.

How is it useful to :
- Put wrong information on the wiki,
- Say you did not put that false information in the wiki, but wiki history says the opposite.

- quoting out of context  Does anyone have more information on 6 MHz CPC?

[TFM]

How is it useful to :
- Put wrong information on the wiki,
- Say you did not put that false information in the wiki, but wiki history says the opposite.

- quoting out of context  Does anyone have more information on 6 MHz CPC?

Obviously you are wrong:
Does anyone have more information on 6 MHz CPC?


I expect your apologies. 

[Gryzor]

ANNOUNCEMENT

Some of you have noticed that I've been fairly absent from this debate. Some of you have PM'd me. Some of you have expressed the opinion that the thread should have been locked (but did not report it).

It's time this ended.

I haven't taken any action up to now because of personal, real-life problems that didn't allow me to devote the time, thought and energy necessary to weeding through the posts and formulating a calm opinion.

On the other hand, to tell you the truth, I've been really insulted in the past ("fascist" comes to mind) when I've dealt with behavioral issues in the forum. So I felt maybe it'd be a good opportunity for people (especially those who weren't here in older days when that kind of shite was occurring more often) to see what happens if the 'fascists' don't take action. And maybe understand why some of the actions I occasionally take and seem to be overly harsh have a reasoning and foreknowledge behind them.

But I feel that this has now started hurting the forum, so I guess it's time to put an end to it, before it gets any uglier. Here's what I'm going to do:

   
• I'm going to leave this thread open, but ONLY to discuss the issue at a community level - i.e. no replies to previous insults and whatnot. These will be deleted.
• When the discussion has died down the thread will be locked and moved (not to the HoS).
• TMF is going to get banned for a while. I didn't agree with his opening remarks in this thread because he had clearly misunderstood some things, but that's not the reason for the ban. The reason is his being constantly quarrelsome and very often provocative. I don't like bans. And, even more so, I don't like banning people who have something to offer genuinely, like a longtime dev. But this doesn't mean anyone could/should get a carte blanche. Hopefully TFM will calm down. In general this is what has happened, time and again - he comes back, he's very calm and reasonable and then as time moves on he becomes more and more aggressive in his comments.
• I'm going to keep a close eye on other people's behaviors because, frankly guys, TFM is not the only one becoming agitated. So you can expect future offensive comments to be edited or deleted (editing vs deletion: when a post has something of value and can be edited easily, it will be edited. If it needs more than the editing out of a phrase or two, AND doesn't add anything to the discussion it will be deleted)
• Why this asymmetric approach? People have accused me in the past because of it, because they don't realise that some issues are more long-standing than others. Like in real life - when someone does something bad for the first time, you may ignore it; when he does it for the second or third or fourth time, you'll forgive them; then you'll warn them; and finally take drastic action. It's not so hard a concept, and I don't understand why people fail to understand when I tell them "hey, this is not the first time, you know".

So, that's it basically. Please do discuss if you feel like it, but please keep the tone civil. I'll try to follow the discussion as closely as possible, but if I disappear for a day or two don't hold it against me.

Peace,
T.

[ervin]

Very well said Gryzor.

[1024MAK]

Gryzor to the rescue with a fire engine full of foam 

I hope you sprayed some of it on the members deliberately provoking TFM, as well as on TFM.

Mark

[Gryzor]

I covered that (well, not with foam ) in my comment about other users.


But, it's no wonder that such issues very,very rarely appear between other people.

[ukmarkh]

Whilst I do agree with parts of your message, do you think banning 'TFM' or people in general is the correct approach, maybe some people just need clearer guidelines on what is acceptable. I tell you, some of the boxing forums are full of low life's, who speak horrible words to each other, and nobody ever gets banned.   


My initial reaction was to go on the defensive with 'TFM', but then I realised that it could be a translation issue, as I think this is clearly what has happened here, then 'TFM' realises he eff'ed up, but is too set in his ways to own up to his mistake. We've all been in similar positions, but sometimes react in a bad way, some of us just can't accept we might be wrong. My personal reaction when put in a similar position, is to hope the ground opens up beneath me and swallows me up.


I personally don't think he means anyone any discomfort or harm, but it is easy to get carried away in these forums. Every now and then, people just need a gentle reminder of what is acceptable and what is not. Maybe a verbal slap on the head, or a poke in the ribs.


This on the whole is one of the most friendliest communities on the web, I'm sorry for pouring petrol during this debate, and especially if i've upset anyone. C'mon guys, let's all get along, this is a CPC community after all.

[Gryzor]

Hey @ukmarkh , thanks for your comment.


I agree with what you say, with one important difference: all your suggestions have been tried, time and again, in the past. As I said, I don't like banning people even for serious reasons, but the hour of 'mild' methods has long since swooshed by.


And yes, I agree with your assessment about TFM, and although it's not our role to play mother and explain things and how one should behave, we've tried even that. No result.

[ukmarkh]

I know, but I suspect the worse thing to do in this type of situation, it to publicly single someone out, and hang them out to dry in front of everyone. It's not good for the individual, or other members of the forum.


I personally believe this is a very sensitive issue, that needs handling in a sensitive manner.


Anyway, I'll shut up now, as I think some of the things I've said over the last few days, might get me banned 

Long live CPCWIKI!

[andycadley]

The job of a moderator doubtless seems like a thankless task at times, but your efforts at keeping things as civil as possible are definitely appreciated.

Peace and love everyone. And if you can't think of something nice to say, go do something creative with your CPC and post about that instead.

[Munchausen]

Well said @Gryzor. I also mostly agree with @ukmarkh. Although, I think it's clear that a bunch of friendly people discussing old computers might have somewhat (significantly, actually) different standards to guys on a boxing forum  .

It really is uncomfortable to single anyone out, even if it is necessary (which I guess it is), and I feel for those that are, especially when they've been goaded and bullied to some extent (no offence meant to anyone by saying that). In the spirit of evening that out a bit (and I'm not taking sides on anything when I say this) I'll say that from what I know TFM really is a nice guy. And I bet all the other members are too

@Gryzor I didn't press the report button even though it was obvious the thread was getting out of hand. I figured you would notice a thread like this at some point and did have the thought that something slightly different to normal might be going on. I considered whether to use the button, but decided to just say what I thought instead. Perhaps next time I'll just press the button instead. I feel like we shouldn't really need a referee and hoped some kind of resolution could come on its own, but it's good you are here! It's not a job I would want. I hope your real life stuff is ok.

[Gryzor]

@ukmarkh : I totally see your point. Naming and shaming is not my way, usually. What happened here is that the whole thing has become, more less, a matter of public discourse. And because I've been getting messages about it and I bet many more and wondering, it's not a private issue any more - plus, it's been handled privately several times in the past. After all, sensitive as it may be, one of the basic tenets of justice (not wanting to sound that majestic here ) is that it must be public.


@andycadley : thanks for the kind words, mate. Truth be told, I guess we're lucky that the community itself is so friendly and civil, at least compared to the drama I've seen elsewhere.


@Munchausen : again I agree. TFM *is* a nice guy when he wants to. As for the report button: people shouldn't think of it as ratting out somebody else. There have been many instances where posts or threads have been reported for the most innocent reasons, like forum placement, mistakes etc. Reporting a post just means bringing it to the mods' attention, whatever the reason. I appreciate the "he'll notice in the end" feeling - well, especially for a thread like this it's true -, but who knows, maybe I won't, maybe I misjudge things and I need a dozen people telling me to wake up, maybe I'm away and I don't go online so someone has to ping me to take action - you understand what I mean.

[ukmarkh]

When people act out, such as TFM, I think it's because something is amiss in their lives. Maybe something serious has happened, and he feels he can come on here and escape real life, but then get's himself embroiled in things, and the anger, frustration spills over.   


I sense something is wrong in his life, and he's far from happy. I know a few of you are religious, I'm certainly not, but as religious folk, ask yourselves, what would Han Solo the lord do?


   

[Gryzor]

I have no right to go into someone's private life. If people want to include others in what is happening outside the forum, that's fine and we'll take it into consideration. And of course we need to afford some common courtesy and tolerance to others because precisely, you never know what happens. But when outside factors influence to such a degree what happens here, then you have to take action. As with any community, really.

[ukmarkh]

Well, I've said my piece, and I respect whatever action you feel is needed.


Great site, great people and long may it continue... May the CPC be with you... Always!

[Shaun M. Neary]

ANNOUNCEMENT

Some of you have noticed that I've been fairly absent from this debate. Some of you have PM'd me. Some of you have expressed the opinion that the thread should have been locked (but did not report it).

It's time this ended.
<schnippppp>

I'm actually glad you addressed this dude. I've been in and out of here the last couple of years, but the last few weeks it really doesn't seem like a friendly place anymore. Without mentioning names, there are a few people that are, for the want of a better term, up their own ass.

We're all adults here, if occasional bad language offends you, then I'm sorry, but the internet isn't for you, (especially if you get offended by the word "shit").

I'm not so sure (and I can't believe I'm saying this) a ban for TFM is a positive call, he just needs to tone it down. He seems to think that he can be as offensive and rude and obnoxious to everyone he wants to be, but the second his "work" gets remotely called into question, he goes off crying, and then wonders why he gets no sympathy. But banning TFM? I dunno, it's like the punishment didn't fit the crime.

Last I checked, we were all here for the shared interest of a retro machine that gave us all a lot of fun over several decades, even after commercial releases became available. There shouldn't really be a need for superiority complexes, etc.

[FloppySoftware]

Well, the question is simple for me: give others what you would like to receive from them.

Or: don't blame against the work of other people if you don't want to receive the same reply from them.

Or: don't expect good words from someone you told him something not nice.

Or: ...

[Gryzor]

@Shaun M. Neary : edited your second post, deleted your first; you probably didn't read what I wrote in detail :p


A ban is only positive in a very few cases. I've permabanned a couple of users here where the negative of the ban negated the negativity they brought, resulting in... erm, where was I? Oh yes, it was positive in those cases. But, right now, what else could I do? Yeah, "he just needs to tone it down", if you know of any other way to accomplish this, please share. I'm genuinely interested in it.


As for @FloppySoftware 's note, yup, that's a universal principle.

[Gryzor]

By the way, I was informed that TFM changed his signature to the usual crap. Let's hope I don't need to ban him from even logging in after reverting his customary accusations.

[Munchausen]

We're all adults here, if occasional bad language offends you, then I'm sorry, but the internet isn't for you, (especially if you get offended by the word "shit").

Well kids use the internet, and kids might see this forum. I don't swear in front of my son, and I appreciate others not doing so too. IMO just because there is swearing on the internet it doesn't mean we need to spread it around.

But that's beside the point. Of course I can deal with bad language, and in some cases maybe it's ok (like oh s**t I plugged 12V into the 5V socket of my CPC, help! ). But swearing AT people is offensive, and a pretty good indicator that the conversation's crossed a line that means it's beyond what is acceptable in a forum like this.

[Shaun M. Neary]

Well kids use the internet, and kids might see this forum. I don't swear in front of my son, and I appreciate others not doing so too. IMO just because there is swearing on the internet it doesn't mean we need to spread it around.

Fair point, but censorship doesn't exist on the internet in most countries though. Up to the parents what kids view on the net, especially when it comes to discussion forums. You could say that about any forum.

But that's beside the point. Of course I can deal with bad language, and in some cases maybe it's ok (like oh s**t I plugged 12V into the 5V socket of my CPC, help! ). But swearing AT people is offensive, and a pretty good indicator that the conversation's crossed a line that means it's beyond what is acceptable in a forum like this.

What can I say? TFM brings out the worst in me sometimes. 

[Munchausen]

Last I checked, we were all here for the shared interest of a retro machine that gave us all a lot of fun over several decades, even after commercial releases became available. There shouldn't really be a need for superiority complexes, etc.

I agree with this ^^