upgrading 464 costs.

[Gryzor]

Right, this is an interesting discussion, please allow me to butt in in a somewhat off-topic way (I feel it's better than starting a new thread)


[ot]This is a classing instance where members misunderstand each other. Knowing (sort of) Carnivac I understood from the first post he didn't want to get a new machine but rather stick with his current one. He was also pretty clear, as in "upgrading the 464", not "getting a more powerful CPC".


That said, the same question has been asked before in the context of "how I get more functionality" and the answer is, sensibly enough, "with a 6128". So the next users were right in following that logic, especially after seeing other similar posts, and suggesting that path.


So, in essence, people misunderstood Carnivac; and Carnivac, in turn, misunderstood why people replied that way.


So, I'd say, please be a little more patient and inquiring, people. That's all.[/ot]


Also, @Carnivac , it'd be well worth it going over the CPCWiki and the CentPourCent material and also the relevant threads here on the forum, much info is available to help you out

[CraigsBar]

<snip>

You might be able to use both features to transfer ROM files via the minibooster to the RAM C drive and the upload them to a ROM slot from there. But I see all this combination more difficult to work. This utilities were not designed to work together and there will probably be problems at some stage.


Anyhow, if this utilities don't work together, maybe with access to the code and some small tweaking they could be fixed.

They do work together very well, Obviously however your X-Mem needs to be configured with a Silicon disc (either 256 or 444k work fine)
the second requirement is the ARKOS rom in a slot lower than 7, and AmsDOS or ParaDOS are required. In order to load the files from the |C drive you require the AmsDOS versions of the load and run etc, otherwise loading from |C will result in "Press Play then any key"


Once these 2 requirements are met then these 2 tools work perfecty together.


Method.


1. Copy your game roms into the AFT directory on the PC/MAC
2. Run AFT on the PC/MAC
3. On the CPC change to the Silicon Disc:  |C
4. Get File from the PC/MAC to the Silicon disc on the CPC eg:  |GF FILENAME.ROM
5. Flash the rom into your x-mem eg:  |FLASH,"FILENAME.ROM",10


A simple reset will leave the .ROM file on the Silicon disc, a full power off and restart will clear it.
As the ROM image is now flashed onto the x-mem, it can now be launched with it's own bar command.


Enjoy. You now have ROM based games on the CPC with no need for a disc drive.


The only issue I can see would be if you need to reconfigure the x-mem or reflash Arkos, as these are provided on Disk and unless they are working then none of the above will work.


Now the biggy: The x-mem itself does not allow you to put AmsDOS (or anything else) in rom 7 so you may need single slot rom board in your Mother4x to allow you to put AmsDOS on your 464 without a a DDI-1, I am not sure if amsdos on it's own works in slot 6 or lower if nothing is in slot 7.


Maybe one of the hardware guys here could design a PCB that allows an external Eprom, or 16k flash to be programmed and switched in and put of Slot 7 overriding the internal one in a 6128/plus or providing the missing AmsDOS in a CPC 464 without DDI-1


Craig

[TFM]

Please use RDOS  and not the Silicon Disc ROM. RDOS is more powerful and reliable, it provides a 444 kb RAM Disc C and you can even start games from it.

[CraigsBar]

Please use RDOS  and not the Silicon Disc ROM. RDOS is more powerful and reliable, it provides a 444 kb RAM Disc C and you can even start games from it.

If using an x-mem, you need neither. Fw 3.15 has full support for a silicon disc, either 256 or 444k on boot. And we are trying to make this as simple as possible aren't we?



But yes the DKTronics Silicon Disc rom is total crap (Yes the Dump online "SiliDisc.zip" was ripped by me a long time ago, before i knew better) sorry folks for any mental anguish this rom image has caused

[TFM]

If using an x-mem, you need neither. Fw 3.15 has full support for a silicon disc, either 256 or 444k on boot. And we are trying to make this as simple as possible aren't we?nguish this rom image has caused

Exactly! Therefore the FW 3.15 extension ROM contains RDOS. 

[opqa]

Have you tried the whole process to the end? I don't have the X-MEM but I've been doing some tests in WinAPE and I've found some strange issues after trying to use |GF. It seems to corrupt the system some way and after this command no other command works properly. This is only in WinAPE with the default X-MEM Lower ROM (extracted from the disc), with its BASIC version, and also with the Expansion ROM (patched to create the RAM Disk).

AMSDOS is a regular ROM so in theory it can be placed anywhere, this seems not to affect the result.

Anyhow, I've also make further tests with 6128 original Lower ROM and BASIC, and with original RDOS, and in this case this compatibility problem doesn't arise. So it might be a way after all...

Edit to add: This is the configuration that seems to work flawlessly in the emulator.

Lower ROM: OS6128
Upper 0: BASIC1-1
Upper 1: RDOS-EXT
Upper 2: AksROM
Upper 3: FW315EXP (with RAMDisk disabled, just to have the |FLASH command)
Upper 4: AMSDOS
...
Upper 7:(Empty - Same as Upper 0)

And this is the one that has problems:

Lower ROM: FW315ES
Upper 0: BASIC11
Upper 1: FW315EXP (with RAMDisk enabled)
Upper 2: AksROM
Upper 3: AMSDOS
...
Upper 7:(Empty - Same as Upper 0)
With this configuration the system seems to get corrupted after a |GF command. Could you confirm that this doesn't happen with a real X-MEM?

I do the tests with both 256KB RAM Expansion + 256 Silicon Disk enabled in the memory configuration settings tab of WinAPE.

[CraigsBar]

Have you tried the whole process to the end? I don't have the X-MEM but I've been doing some tests in WinAPE and I've found some strange issues after trying to use |GF. It seems to corrupt the system some way and after this command no other command works properly. This is only in WinAPE with the default X-MEM Lower ROM (extracted from the disc), with its BASIC version, and also with the Expansion ROM (patched to create the RAM Disk).

AMSDOS is a regular ROM so in theory it can be placed anywhere, this seems not to affect the result.

Anyhow, I've also make further tests with 6128 original Lower ROM and BASIC, and with original RDOS, and in this case this compatibility problem doesn't arise. So it might be a way after all...

Edit to add: This is the configuration that seems to work flawlessly in the emulator.

Lower ROM: OS6128
Upper 0: BASIC1-1
Upper 1: RDOS-EXT
Upper 2: AksROM
Upper 3: FW315EXP (with RAMDisk disabled, just to have the |FLASH command)
Upper 4: AMSDOS
...
Upper 7:(Empty - Same as Upper 0)

And this is the one that has problems:

Lower ROM: FW315ES
Upper 0: BASIC11
Upper 1: FW315EXP (with RAMDisk enabled)
Upper 2: AksROM
Upper 3: AMSDOS
...
Upper 7:(Empty - Same as Upper 0)
With this configuration the system seems to get corrupted after a |GF command. Could you confirm that this doesn't happen with a real X-MEM?

I do the tests with both 256KB RAM Expansion + 256 Silicon Disk enabled in the memory configuration settings tab of WinAPE.

Yep  i can confirm I have no issues with |gf to get a rom image to the Silicon Disc, the |flash from the silicon disc to the x-mem.


I have used this many times with the now MASSIVE selection of Games Roms as i don't necessarily want these on a real floppy just to test them. If I really want them available offline then I can always copy them from the ramdisc to a real floppy, or firectly from the minibooster to a real floppy separately afterwards.




The only difference I have in my setup is that I am using a 6128 with a Parados modded cart so I do have the DOS in Slot 7.


If only someone would design a MX4 compatible slot 7 romboard (or 16k flash card) that way we could have multiple OS's on all out CPC's (Except for those few unlucky enough to have one where the internal rom 7 cannot be disabled. I do get why TotO designed the X-Mem not to replace rom 7, to ensure that all of the flash rom can be used by all users on all machines But for those of us with slot 7 external capable machines it would be a great thing to have. Just my 2 cents and now I'll move on.

[TFM]

As I know the FW extension ROM _must_ be at position 1.

[opqa]

As I know the FW extension ROM _must_ be at position 1.

That's not the source of the problem, note that the expansion ROM isn't placed in slot 1 only in the working configuration. And is there just to have the flash command available.

Anyhow, If as CraigsBar says there is no compatibility problem with real hardware then I think that it can be used without problems in a disk-less CPC464:

Recovery ROM flashing should be perfectly doable via Tape. The recovery utilities in the X-MEM disk and even the FLASER tool can be transferred to tape without much hassle. They are programmed in BASIC and basically do the following:
-Load the ROM file to &4000-&7FFF memory area.
-Load a small 476 bytes flasher routine in &8000
-Call this routine.
All this can be done via tape, so in the worst case there's always a recovery method.

And about AMSDOS/PARADOS, I strongly believe that they should work perfectly in a CPC464 in any slot <7. They are programmed in a generic way, so they're just like any other ROM.

[TFM]

Sorry, but in your case it's a problem of the emulator, not the CPC itself.


I had problems too on a real CPC, but I deleted one of this Booster-Management ROMs (don't remember which one) and then everything was fine. FW 3.15 is fine. 

[opqa]

Sorry, but in your case it's a problem of the emulator, not the CPC itself.

Don't worry, these were all tests I was doing for Carnivac, the whole process is never going to work in WinAPE anyhow as it doesn't emulate the MiniBooster, probably the expanded RAM configuration I was using (256KB standard expansion + 256 Silicon Disk) isn't fully compatible with X-MEM. There is also an even bigger issue, if I try with ParaDOS instead of AMSDOS the system doesn't even boot, it hangs.

So, guys. Don't any of you have a real CPC464 to try the whole process in real Hardware and be 100% sure that it works? You would just have to burn AMSDOS or PARADOS in any slot <7, take the X-MEM (with C drive activated) to a real CPC464 without a DD1, and see if you can use C drive and transfer files to it via the MiniBooster. If you don't have one or you can't do the test I might start a new thread in the Hardware forum to give it more visibility. I think that this is something of interest to all CPC464 users.

[CraigsBar]

Sadly I don't have a non upgraded 464 any longer. The closest I can get is an upgraded 464plus with no drives plugged in.

[opqa]

Mmmm, could be useful if you could try it with the System cartridge unplugged. After all what we want to check is whether AMSDOS and/or ParaDOS work in any slot <7, it does on emulator so I guess it will also do on real Hardware but...

[CraigsBar]

Hmmmm. That would mean swapping my acid inside bracket from my 6128 plus to my 464plus to test.

[opqa]

Ok then, I will open other thread, maybe there is some4one else with a X-MEM a MiniBooster and a CPC474 that could try. I'm curious about it...

[CraigsBar]

I'll test it tonight. I think the acid inside would be better off in the 464plus anyway. As the 6128 plus has no lower Rom board so will not boot without a cartridge no matter what.

[opqa]

Thanks! Could you also please try putting Arkos and AMSDOS ROM's in slots > 7, it should also work as long as the FW 3.15 initializes all ROMS, and it has the advantage that you can go back to a pristine unmodified 464 using the boot switch, as the original 464OS only initializes roms <8.Although I'm not sure whether 464Plus OS share this behaviour.

[CraigsBar]

Well it's tested with my Acid Inside board. and bad news it seems.


the RamDisc integration requires AmsDOS or compatible Disc OS in Slot 7. As soon as this is lower than 7, then the machine hangs as soon as |c is executed


Craig

[opqa]

Wow, that's weird. Maybe the problem is that AMSDOS tries to communicate with the FDC and as long as it isn't there it hangs, this wouldn't be detected in WinAPE because you can't deactivate the FDC emulation, the *hardware* is always there.

Anyway... Could you please try with the alternative config with R-DOS I talked about in the other post?
Lower ROM: OS6128
Upper 0: BASIC1-1
Upper 1: RDOS-EXT
Upper 2: AksROM (Arkos ROM)
Upper 3: AMSDOS

The RDOS-EXT rom can be downloaded here:
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/ROM_List

[CraigsBar]

Wow, that's weird. Maybe the problem is that AMSDOS tries to communicate with the FDC and as long as it isn't there it hangs, this wouldn't be detected in WinAPE because you can't deactivate the FDC emulation, the *hardware* is always there.

Anyway... Could you please try with the alternative config with R-DOS I talked about in the other post?
Lower ROM: OS6128
Upper 0: BASIC1-1
Upper 1: RDOS-EXT
Upper 2: AksROM (Arkos ROM)
Upper 3: AMSDOS

The RDOS-EXT rom can be downloaded here:
http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/ROM_List

My 464plus has an fdc. By booting it from the xmem without a cart installed I can get it running without amsdos, or at least with amsdos in a different slot. I'll test with rdos later on. Right now I have to get a 4 year old ready for school.


UPDATE: OK Tested it and it all looks good in this config. Unfortunately my Minibooster has stopped working so I am unable to fully test. however I have full access to C with no card and Parados in rom 3 and the R-DOS in rom 1 and Arkos in rom 2.


So this seems to be a runner. I will test this as soon as I get a working Minibooster again.


Craig

[TotO]

I'm looking with SyX to embed the floppy drive code that handle the RAM Drive into the FW3.1x EXP ROM.
That will allow to not require AMSDOS on 464 to make it working.

[CraigsBar]

That would be awesome.

[opqa]

I'm looking with SyX to embed the floppy drive code that handle the RAM Drive into the FW3.1x EXP ROM.
That will allow to not require AMSDOS on 464 to make it working.

If you don't mind, I was planning to adapt the X-MEM utility disk to tape so that could be used with disk-less machines as an install/rescue tape. My plan was to embedd the functionality of the BASIC programs "RESCUE", "INIT" and "INSTALL" into a single .BAS file with an additional selection menu, which would also install the Arkos ROM. I think I could do that once we have a working set of ROMS. What do you think? I would like to help with that.

[TotO]

Sure you can.
I have made those program in BASIC to allow any peoples to understand and adapt them for their own usage.

[Carnivius]

Just to say:  I have completely lost all understanding of this topic now.  It's all gone super technical and way over my head but you guys do what you gotta do to run all your tests and stuff and I'll go away and await the results.