what if... Amstrad dropped the 464 instead of the 664?

[zhulien]

I was thinking back in the day when Amstrad dropped the 664 for the 6128, why they didn't drop the 464 instead of the 664 - if that had happened, what price do you think the 664 could have sold for and... given the general high price of 3" discs, do you think the CPC range would have sold a lot less if it wasn't for tapes?

[Gryzor]

The 664 was never meant to last. Sugar himself said  (iirc, the June before the 6128 was released?) that a machine to supercede it was coming soon. 

It would make no sense to keep two disc-based machines with close pricing alive. They needed a cheap one, and a higher end one. The 664 was just filling a gap temporarily. 

[eto]

It would make no sense to keep two disc-based machines with close pricing alive. They needed a cheap one, and a higher end one. The 664 was just filling a gap temporarily.

From what I read about it, I would say that Sugar at first was not convinced to sell a 128K home machine. That was just for the US market as they thought it HAS to have 128KB. In 1985 the 128KB all of a sudden seemed to be the new standard and they were lucky to have the 6128 already at hand. 

I was thinking back in the day when Amstrad dropped the 664 for the 6128, why they didn't drop the 464 instead of the 664 - if that had happened, what price do you think the 664 could have sold for and... given the general high price of 3" discs, do you think the CPC range would have sold a lot less if it wasn't for tapes?

The 664 and the 6128 were competing for the same market niche. The price difference was neglectable. Even I as a kid would not have considered the 664, as 128 was of course much more to brag - and the overall form factor of the 6128 was so much more professional looking that I was willing to spend 7% more on the 6128. From a commercial perspective, it didn't make much sense as the 664 could not be sold much cheaper than a 6128. the production costs were too similar as the difference was more or less only 8 RAM ICs and a PAL IC.

The 464 however was targeting another market niche. For the same money you could get a 464 with colour monitor or a 6128 with green screen. And not to forget: Cassette games were MUCH cheaper than disk games. My neighbour had a 464 with colour monitor and only used it for games. I used it also for school and to learn programming. I preferred the 6128 with green screen.  

Dropping the 464 would have been a commercial disaster. I mean, even the Plus range received a 464. So there must have still been people willing to buy a cassette based system. 

[ZbyniuR]

To build 664 was more expensive than build 6128. That why 664 gone.

I have other question. Why after made new version of OS+Basic 1.1, they still put in 464 old version? And why after made so nice keyboard for 6128 they still made so ugly one in 464?
464 with more compact case and keyboard and with better Basic could be cheaper, more pretty and more usefull. Am I right?

[eto]

have other question. Why after made new version of OS+Basic 1.1, they still put in 464 old version?

Roland Perry once answered exactly that question on Facebook:

You cannot view this attachment.

464 with more compact case and keyboard and with better Basic could be cheaper, more pretty and more usefull. Am I right?

The tape drive is probably the main reason it was so bulky. But at some point a 464 with better Basic, more pretty and more useful came out ... the 464 Plus ;-)

[Prodatron]

While the 664 was a 464 with a replaced mass storage device, the 6128 was - compared to this - a new development.
And as tape was still ok at this time, why having a 664, when you could have the 464 for more price sensitive people and the 6128 for the "power" user?
When they decided only to sell two machines, then it was logical only to sell the 464 and the 6128.

[andycadley]

Spanish market IIRC. There was a law introduced where machines with 64K or less of RAM were taxed more heavily (as toys or some such). At the time RAM was dirt cheap and it was far more profitable to throw more RAM in than to take the tax hit. The 472 was a literal result of this law, the 128.machines a.more considered response - the Speccy 128, for example, was actually made by Investronica on Spain initially to circumvent this law.

[Urusergi]

The Amstrad CPC 472 (Basic 1.1) was not entirely compatible with most of the software, probably because no specific roms were created for the machine.

[eto]

The Amstrad CPC 472 (Basic 1.1) was not entirely compatible with most of the software, probably because no specific roms were created for the machine.

What exactly do you mean with "most of the software"? 

You can easily replace the 464 ROM with a 664 or 6128 ROM and it will work for most programs. To my knowledge that's what they have done for the 472. The compatibility level therefore should be at least as high as the compatibility of a 664 or 6128 and only software that calls firmware routines at address that differ between 464 and 664/6128 should fail. 

btw: did they use 664 or 6128 firmware für the 472?

[TotO]

If the 474 ROM was the same as 664 (I don't know), then a problem of compatibility may exist for some BASIC programs between 464 (1.0) and 472 (1.1). Just a supposition.

[Bryce]

I've fixed two CPC472 and both of them had the 40037 ROM (ie: Basic 1.0 Spanish) installed. The 472 should be a 100% compatible CPC464 as the additional RAM chip isn't actually connected to anything.

Bryce.

[ZbyniuR]

@eto - Yeah, they did 464 with 1.1 and smaller keyboard, but 5 years later then they could.
And in meantime they produced two different ROM with Basic 1.1 (664 & 6128), and 3 different version of ZX+2 with different ROMs in each of them.  So, what the point to made 2/3 of all CPC with old version of Basic?

But in my opinion even less smart was selling PLUS models with monitors. I understand decision why sell old CPCs with monitors. Because on shity TVs from 80s with only antena socket, thats made MODE 2 and soft for that not usefull at all. I get it, it make sens. I love MODE 2.
But in 90s most people already had TV with RGB with better CRT. But cost 6128+ with B&W was like Atari ST, and price with color monitor was as A500, so people prefer 16bit. That is my opinion.
Old CPC was sell 3 millions in 6 years, average 500 thousands per year, PLUS sell 250 thousands in 2 years, thats mean 4 times less.

Anyway, Alan earned millions, and we had fine computers.

[Sykobee (Briggsy)]

Certainly by 1990 a lot of households had second and third TVs, that were moved into spare rooms and bedrooms, and used for the Amigas and STs and Megadrives. That wasn't really the case in the decade before.

So I agree that the plus range didn't need to come with a monitor, they could have nickel and dimed the monitors as a separate purchase instead! On the other hand, those older TVs didn't have SCART. And parents liked the monitors so the TV wasn't hogged, and also the serious side of computing for school.

GX4000 supported SCART (but it was designed for the living room, so the newer TV), so the plus range should have as well. But then again, the Plus range should have had a lot more features and performance to be competitive at the price it was sold at.

[eto]

Old CPC was sell 3 millions in 6 years, average 500 thousands per year, PLUS sell 250 thousands in 2 years, thats mean 4 times less.

Which is an impressive number for an 8bit that was released in 1990. 

Btw: Where did you get that number from? I never found a source that mentions the number of sold Plus computers


. 

[rexbeng]

I'm going to differ and, instead of removing, do an addition to the original CPC line of computers. Meet the Amstrad CPC 264! Launching perhaps a bit after the 464, featuring the same hardware, same expansions and features. But! With differences being, a) instead of carrying a tape drive, it has a tape connector with which you'd use a typical cassette player or external tape drive (like with the 6128), and b) selling with a MP1 TV modulator instead of a screen.

[Gryzor]

Soooo lose the big USP they had going for it? 

[ZbyniuR]

@Sykobee - If Amiga 500 cost the same as the CPC+ with a color monitor, and the same as the C= color monitor for the A500, I believe that Amstrad color monitor with cable for A500 for about 30% less than the C= monitor was possible, and could be better sells product than CPC+. 

@eto - I don't remember, probably somewhere on this forum.

[BSC]

I'm going to differ and, instead of removing, do an addition to the original CPC line of computers. Meet the Amstrad CPC 264! Launching perhaps a bit after the 464, featuring the same hardware, same expansions and features. But! With differences being, a) instead of carrying a tape drive, it has a tape connector with which you'd use a typical cassette player or external tape drive (like with the 6128), and b) selling with a MP1 TV modulator instead of a screen.

A CPC 2128 I would have bought immediately! 

[Zoe Robinson]

The 664 was never meant to last. Sugar himself said  (iirc, the June before the 6128 was released?) that a machine to supercede it was coming soon.

The 664 arrived in UK stores in the first week of May 1985 but Lord Sugar's comments about "the excitement and the big guns should be saved for much later in the year" was made at the launch press release, in April. It was also quoted in Amstrad Computer User's review of the 664; which makes me wonder what the hell they were thinking. Basically they said "yeah, this is good but don't bother". Fuckin' crazy.

[ComSoft6128]

Could be that he was hinting at the PCW8256?

[Gryzor]

Reminds me of the "here's a fan, but don't use it" thing, but on a much larger scale