Making of this tunes ????

Axel · 14:15, 09 July 22

There are two tracks that I've always wondered about how they were made. 
I would say not even the SID chip could reproduce that very special sound.
I am pretty sure there are no samples involved. Is all this stuff made with hardware-envelope-tricks?
Could you do this tracks with ARKOS-Tracker?
Does somebody know more about it?


https://zxart.ee/eng/authors/m/miguel/sweet-moments-of-lust/

https://zxart.ee/eng/authors/n/never/tortures-of-detonated-flesh/


Listen to this tunes over big speakers and the world after is not the same.

GUNHED · 15:31, 09 July 22

WoW!!! That's really awesome. Quite a difference to the usual soundtrakker droning

MaV · 15:58, 09 July 22

I'm reciting a friend of mine who does a lot of conversion to AY:

Short answers: Yes, no, no.

Long answers: "Yes, this is the ZX using their advanced hard-sound. No, it cannot be converted 100% to the CPC because our AY is inferior and only has limited hard-sound. I could get close, but it won't be as good! ^_^ And no, I do not know more about it!"

I might add that the links you gave us clearly states:
AY frequency:1.75 MHz (Pentagon)
INT frequency:48.828125 Hz (Pentagon)

The Pentagon is a Russian clone of the ZX Spectrum with quite a few enhancements.

Axel · 16:28, 09 July 22

This hard-sounds can sound like a brute resonantfilter, that is really amazing for a chip that was made for three beeps and one noise.

Okay, the CPC could do this, but maybe in some cases not as good, because the frequency of the chip differs, but could the YM do this?

MaV · 17:16, 09 July 22

Again I'm reciting my friend:
" The ZX & ST chips are pretty similar. ST has DMA, too, so SID-voice is a lot easier and nicer! But saving as .YM will produce the same sound, so yes!"

So, the YM chip on the ST can totally do this:
Here's an example of TAO who specialises in SID-voices on the Atari ST:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz8KaDHClTA

If you mean a file in .YM format: Yes, you can do that.

Some other examples you might like (again the Pentagon Spectrum clone):
https://zxart.ee/eng/authors/m/miguel/das-verbaten-la-fuego-ver-chuta/

https://zxart.ee/eng/authors/n/nik-o/deadline-funk/

MaV · 17:19, 09 July 22

A note from the Wiki AY-3-8910 page:
"It was also manufactured under license by Yamaha (with a selectable clock divider pin and a double-resolution and double-rate volume envelope table) as the YM2149F; the Atari ST uses this version. It produces very similar results to the Texas Instruments SN76489 and was on the market for a similar period."

Axel · 11:01, 10 July 22

As far as I know, the ST was not featured with DMA, only the STE. But maybe more CPU-Power helps to generate an additional "digital" square-wave in order to frequencemodulate a Hardware-Squarewave for some pseudo-PWM-effects. The "Sid-Voice" is not the same like the hard-sound. But I am sure, I teach you nothing new, haha.

Are there any examples of CPC-Tunes which offers the SID-Voice too?

BSC · 11:44, 11 July 22

I actually doubt that this cannot be done on the CPC. I had a listen and most of the Wow was when 2 channels were playing in (almost) unison while utilizing a hardware-envelope to modulate both channels. The specs that MaV mentioned are actually the same for both, the pentagon mentioned *and* any ZX Spectrum+ or newer 128k model, basically anything having a "standard" AY equipped. The main difference here boils down to a higher clock rate, resulting in e.g. a better resolution on the hardenv generators pitch setting. Anyways, this sounds like nothing that the CPC could not do, apart from maybe a slightly less quality in matching the hardenv generators pitch with the actual note that's being played in parallel.

Speaking of SID sounds on the CPC, I have made plenty of those, for example:

https://soundcloud.com/betasoftcologne/klimper-bsc-slow

https://soundcloud.com/betasoftcologne/run

https://soundcloud.com/betasoftcologne/cpcsid

and some experiments similar to or touching the SID effect:

https://soundcloud.com/betasoftcologne/sets/amstrad-cpc-music-and-experiments

I feel almost tempted to create a small demo in Soundtrakker, of which I am pretty sure to be able to create something very similar.

BSC · 11:49, 11 July 22

Quote from: MaV on 15:58, 09 July 22No, it cannot be converted 100% to the CPC because our AY is inferior and only has limited hard-sound. I could get close, but it won't be as good!

That doesn't actually sound like that friend knows what he's talking about. The AY in the CPC is not inferior, it's *the same* chip, just with a lower clock rate, 1MHz instead of ~1.7MHz in the Spectrum. Saying it has limited hard-sound is plain wrong.

MaV · 12:20, 11 July 22

Quote from: Axel on 11:01, 10 July 22As far as I know, the ST was not featured with DMA, only the STE. But maybe more CPU-Power helps to generate an additional "digital" square-wave in order to frequencemodulate a Hardware-Squarewave for some pseudo-PWM-effects. The "Sid-Voice" is not the same like the hard-sound. But I am sure, I teach you nothing new, haha.

Are there any examples of CPC-Tunes which offers the SID-Voice too?

Our very own BSC has done a lot in that direction!

I think he mentioned DMA because the STe is somewhat the standard for music productions, much like the CPC6128 is for demos in the CPC scene.

MaV · 12:25, 11 July 22

Quote from: BSC on 11:49, 11 July 22That doesn't actually sound like that friend knows what he's talking about. The AY in the CPC is not inferior, it's *the same* chip, just with a lower clock rate, 1MHz instead of ~1.7MHz in the Spectrum. Saying it has limited hard-sound is plain wrong.

I think the lower clock rate is exactly what he is referring to (with his own eccentric wording.)

andycadley · 14:29, 11 July 22

You can do more on the ST because you can throw more processor grunt at it as well as having better timers IIRC.

It doesn't quite come down to just that though, aside from running at different clock speeds the YM chip used in the ST does have some additional advantages such as internally using a larger range of volume levels, leading to smoother transitions etc.

I'm a long way from being an audio expert though, just stuff I've picked up along the way so may not be 100%

Axel · 23:58, 11 July 22

@ BSC:

"RUN!" sounds huge! WOW!

I have to show this demo some 64er-Freaks the next days.

Your "custom engine" sounds superior to the "old way" with two in a certain way layered squarewaves.

Is a stock-CPC able to do this? You tell us, this is a "soft-synth". That sounds hungry for CPU.

BSC · 12:54, 16 July 22

Glad you liked it!

This has been recorded from a stock (emulated) CPC or my 6128 and yes,
it's very CPU hungry because it synthesizes those voices in real-time, leaving
not much CPU power for much else. Color cycling is possible, as you can see in RUN!
Some hardware scrolling should be possible - maybe even using some split-scree technique,
but I (and others) haven't done that yet. Maybe in the future.

There's also a little music disk available btw:

https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=91266

Axel · 13:46, 16 July 22

Okay, wow. This engine seems to be a spectacular method for an "unusual-sounding" titelmusic for a game. Maybe one day we will see a new breathtaking action-game with good scrolling and a muscular titelmusic made with this incredible engine?!

I'll check your musicdisk out. You should put it captured as a video on Youtube. This makes it easier to show other people what a CPC is able to do.

ComSoft6128 · 15:28, 16 July 22

Hi @BSC ,

I'm making a video of the Klimper disc, do you have approximate timings for the three tracks?

Cheers,

Peter

Axel · 23:51, 19 July 22

Hey, is it possible to realise 4-Channel-Sample-Mix-Music on the Amstrad like on the Atari ST (Turrican 2, Shadow of the beast) with the same soundquality?

Here one example:
Music starts at 0:31. The quality is immense!
Please note that this is NOT the Atari STE with enhanced soundfeatures.
This is pure YM-Power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4LrKqxSfsg

Axel · 11:44, 20 July 22

Okay, available RAM would make a difference for the amount of samples and size, but technically?

andycadley · 13:31, 20 July 22

I suspect the issue will mostly boil down to sample rate. Aside from having a lot more memory to store samples, the ST has a lot more CPU grunt to push values into its YM registers, so can manage a much higher sample playback rate even when it's having to mix samples in advance etc. With very little on screen, the whole hardware can be dedicated to pumping up audio quality.

You might be able to do an approximation with a Plus machine, which can feed the AY slightly faster than the CPU (and benefit from releasing the CPU to prepare the next samples while it plays back via DMA) but even then memory and sample rate are probably going to be limitations.

eto · 13:48, 20 July 22

Have a look at Digitracker: https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Digitracker

Pretty amazing what is possible on the CPC.

Axel · 15:46, 23 July 22

Okay, Digitracker is really impressive, but compared to ST-Beast it sounds noisy and scratchy. How is it possible to make an ST sound so good? Is this only a question of a high enough sample-rate or can the ST produce 8-Bit-Samples instead of 4-Bit via the YM-Chip with some clever tricks?

Another question:
Listen to this both tunes, made by Ben Daglish.
This tracks offers something that I would describe as a resonant-filter-sweep. I was really impressed back then.
Is this a sample or made with hard-sound?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMnLJkSi3nE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkY12Juu7XM

BSC · 22:03, 23 July 22

Quote from: Axel on 13:46, 16 July 22Maybe one day we will see a new breathtaking action-game with good scrolling and a muscular titelmusic made with this incredible engine?!

I hope so, but the engine is a bit on the memory-hungry side, so it better be a 128k game

BSC · 22:04, 23 July 22

Quote from: ComSoft6128 on 15:28, 16 July 22I'm making a video of the Klimper disc, do you have approximate timings for the three tracks?

Sorry, not really, did you find it out for yourself?

BSC · 22:07, 23 July 22

Quote from: Axel on 23:51, 19 July 22Hey, is it possible to realise 4-Channel-Sample-Mix-Music on the Amstrad like on the Atari ST (Turrican 2, Shadow of the beast) with the same soundquality?

As you have already noted by listening to a Digitrakker tune, this is about the best sample based quality you can get when using the AY as a DAC. There's the digiblaster add-on, but I count that as cheating, so - the Atari has more CPU power to software-mix and that's why it sounds better afaik.

BSC · 22:10, 23 July 22

Quote from: Axel on 15:46, 23 July 22Another question:
Listen to this both tunes, made by Ben Daglish.
This tracks offers something that I would describe as a resonant-filter-sweep. I was really impressed back then.
Is this a sample or made with hard-sound?

Both tunes are using the same envelope generator trick by sliding from smaller to bigger period values over a relatively high-pitched tone.
Fun fact: I never heard the music of Techno Cop before now

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Making of this tunes ????