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General Category => Technical Support => Hardware related => Topic started by: G40rocket on 01:52, 01 May 15

Title: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts & Restoration CPC Keys [Pag. 4]
Post by: G40rocket on 01:52, 01 May 15
Hello,

I have a CPC 464 with no CRT monitor so i was searching some tutorial in this forum and another places at internet for build my own SCART cable at home.

I have all the pieces avaliable and some soldering experience so it will be no problem at all.

Unfortunately i have no 100% sure about what is the correct scart configuration, some people add resistors at the cables and i'm really confused.

I guess that, this is the right scart configuration right ?

(http://www.cpcwiki.eu/imgs/b/b0/Circuit.gif)


If all is good i have two important questions:

1) the connector views (6 pin DIN + SCart) is from the back where the wires will be welded, right ? ( i don't want burn or damage the CPC inside with wrong schematics)

2) Where i can plug the 3.5mm audio cable ? Is not supposed the SCART cable provides sound (like image) with no audio extra cable ?


By the way, another question is for the PSU, i will buy a universal 5V with 3A (for more safety) for power the CPC. What is the right polarity for CPC 464 ? Center is negative or positive ?

Thank you in advanced.  :D
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: McKlain on 09:53, 01 May 15
The audio jack goes here:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Amstrad_CPC646-IMG_7196.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Amstrad_CPC646-IMG_7196.jpg)


This may be located on the back or on the left side of the computer. It's an stereo sound output. You won't hear the loading sounds through that connector, just the audio from the sound chip.



1) the connector views (6 pin DIN + SCart) is from the back where the wires will be welded, right ? ( i don't want burn or damage the CPC inside with wrong schematics)


That's what it says on the image.  ;D   By the way, I don't think that you can damage the 464 by soldering the video cables in the wrong positions.


The resistors and other stuff that people use on their scart cables depend on the tv you are using with the 464. Sometimes all that is not needed. I built my cable so long ago that I can't remember when I did it, and it has nothing more than wires.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Munchausen on 10:41, 01 May 15
I recommend using the "alternative RGB wiring" with a capacitor, from the wiki (and Bryce). None of the other wiring schemes worked for me.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: G40rocket on 13:31, 01 May 15
McKlain and Munchausen, thank you very much for your time and answers.

I will built the Scart cable from the schematics and if will not work with my TV (Samsung LCD 24") i will change to the method that Munchausen wrote.

I will give you news about this.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 14:11, 01 May 15
If you are going to build your own, then you may as well order all the parts at the same time and build this version: TV SCART cable - CPCWiki (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/TV_SCART_cable#Alternative_RGB_Wiring)

It's almost identical to the version you posted above, but the capacitor will make it more compatible with modern TVs.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: G40rocket on 15:41, 01 May 15
Hey Bryce, thanks for the tip.

I saw that schematic too but i need to add a capacitor or a resistance ?

What is the voltage for the capacitor ?

Capacitor = (http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdImag/198970.jpg) ??
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 22:23, 01 May 15
No resistor, just a capacitor: Electrolytic 100µf 10V (exactly like the one in the picture you've included), remember that the polarity is very important! This capacitor is enough to trigger the RGB selector in the TV and give a stable signal on a modern LCD / Plasma TV.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: G40rocket on 01:01, 02 May 15
Thank you again Bryce.

Will tell some news in the next weeks.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 22:45, 04 May 15
Sorry to jump on thread but i also need advice on RGB cable.

This is what i get when using a premade purchased scart lead on my HDMI box....

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c212/A7mag3ddon/cpcblue.jpg) (http://s28.photobucket.com/user/A7mag3ddon/media/cpcblue.jpg.html)

And if i go direct into the TV i get the following screen (the blue/black banding is moving like a loading screen)

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c212/A7mag3ddon/Amstrad_Directr.jpg) (http://s28.photobucket.com/user/A7mag3ddon/media/Amstrad_Directr.jpg.html)

Im Desperate to get this sorted, any ideas?
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 22:48, 04 May 15
How long is the cable? Is it properly shielded?

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 22:51, 04 May 15

Yeah it is sheiled, I just opened it up and it looks quality built inside.


 (http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/04/900c3d70f448ad5b78b1e6cd23e8d09e.jpg)
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 22:54, 04 May 15
Just checked my eBay purchases, 2 Mtr is the length.

Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 23:08, 04 May 15
It might just be the TV that's not happy with the signal. Have you tried the cable on other TVs?

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 23:13, 04 May 15
No i only have the 1 TV, the socket on the back does say AV1 (RGB) on it though. it cost me £3,000 i hope it does work in RGB mode.

Is it worth taking the cap off and replacing with something else? going through the converter box, text is crystal clear apart from the light blue ghosting.

Here is the back of the TV..

(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c212/A7mag3ddon/20150504_125746.jpg) (http://s28.photobucket.com/user/A7mag3ddon/media/20150504_125746.jpg.html)

Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 23:29, 04 May 15
The TV is working fine in RGB, your problem is that there's noise on the signal. What PSU are you using? If it's a cheap Chinese Switch-mode PSU then I'd advise trying a different one.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 23:31, 04 May 15
PSU on the 6128? I'm using MP2
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 23:37, 04 May 15
Hmmm, then the noise isn't coming from there either. Maybe the TV just doesn't like 15khz signals. It happens.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 23:39, 04 May 15
But what about the blue ghosting which isn't direct to the TV?
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 19:54, 05 May 15
can the blue signal not be tweaked to somehow be in line with the rest of the text?

I contacted supplier of cable for advice and he said hes never seen the blue striped effect on a TV before, hes going to send me a cable that has an active line (my psu plugs into it) to try.


Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 21:33, 05 May 15
It IS in line with the rest, just there seems to be another signal mixed with or interfering with the blue signal.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 21:37, 05 May 15
Its weird. I would have said faulty 6128 but its the same on my 464 as well.

Is it worth trying a different type of converter?  Im currently using a HDV-8S model, there are others available that do it.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 21:42, 05 May 15
Perhaps this will work better? Specs look OK.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/nikkai-scart-to-hdmi-convertor-1080p-n32jq
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: VincentGR on 22:41, 05 May 15
This works fine for me, I have better picture than every vga/hdmi converter I've seen.
Made by Anemos of flashback-computing.
http://flashback-computing.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=200 (http://flashback-computing.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=200)

(http://s26.postimg.org/u46a6k2s9/cpc_tv_scart_by_anemos.png)
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 22:42, 05 May 15
I think this is the diagram of the new cable supplier is sending, but why is it 12volts?
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: VincentGR on 22:45, 05 May 15
I think this is the diagram of the new cable supplier is sending, but why is it 12volts?

It gives the ready signal on many TVs. Many of them doesn't have picture without it or flickering, sometimes blink every 2-3 secs.
I powered it via cpcs external psu (from an external hd psu) and now from my multi-psu for all my micros (a std pc one)
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 22:49, 05 May 15
I get a picture but I just have a blue ghost.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: VincentGR on 22:51, 05 May 15
I get a picture but I just have a blue ghost.

Check your connections again and use a better cable as Bryce said  :(
Then try another diagram.
Does it happens on a std monitor too?
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 22:52, 05 May 15
I only have 1 TV. I have a RGB scart to HDMI adapter only.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: VincentGR on 22:54, 05 May 15
You sould try that on a ctm644 but I doubt you will see this ghosting there. I bet it is your cable.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 22:54, 05 May 15
Is the shield connected to the CPCs ground or the TV. Ideally it should be connected at the CPC end, but not the SCART end.

@VincentGR (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1053): The voltage to pin 8 isn't really needed. You can switch to AV yourself. Pin 16 is needed, but this is what my capacitor does.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 23:05, 05 May 15
Just took it apart and looks ground / shield is going to pay n 17. I'll take a PIC.



(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/05/2137b9e320160f088230656bc7dd0f30.jpg)
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 19:14, 07 May 15
So, fixed my ghosting issue by using a cable with power pass through. Works awesome now!


(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/07/bfbc3c992f96c5a1885c2a75349e8882.jpg)
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: seanb on 20:43, 07 May 15
Thats great.
About time you had some success with your amstrad with all the time and money you've put into it.

Really happy for you
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 21:33, 07 May 15
Yeah and my gotek arrived today too.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: seanb on 22:22, 07 May 15
I seen on Facebook.
Hope you get that working soon
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: VincentGR on 23:17, 07 May 15
Is the shield connected to the CPCs ground or the TV. Ideally it should be connected at the CPC end, but not the SCART end.

@VincentGR (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1053): The voltage to pin 8 isn't really needed. You can switch to AV yourself. Pin 16 is needed, but this is what my capacitor does.

Bryce.

Didn't know that, thanks.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 10:35, 08 May 15
So, fixed my ghosting issue by using a cable with power pass through. Works awesome now!

Congratulations, what exactly do you mean with "power pass through" ?

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 10:47, 08 May 15
Takes power from amstrad PSU, uses it then passes through to the CPC itself. Sorry I wasn't too clear, I knew what I meant ;-)

 (http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/08/14748f609e5853a387ad1ed1198f1d5d.jpg)
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 11:12, 08 May 15
Ah, your problems were probably being caused by a ground loop then.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 11:14, 08 May 15
Still doesn't work on the TV though, picture is even worse like loading bars all over. Not worry though as I want allbmy machines to go through a scanline generator before hitting the scaler :-) going to look awesome.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 11:18, 08 May 15
Those "loading bars" really do look like there's noise from a switch-mode PSU getting onto the blue signal. You could try powering the CPC from a different power socket than the TV which might help?

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 11:22, 08 May 15
But using all same bits works OK on converter. Would t you expect it to be just the same?
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 12:22, 08 May 15
If the noise is coming from the TVs SMPSU then the converter might be isolating the TV from the CPC.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: G40rocket on 13:08, 08 May 15
Mates, the Scart cable was a "success" however there is a problem.

Without the 100uf capacitor, my image is nice, colored but with some ghost effect/flickering so i added the 100uf capacitor and the image is near to clear really but now it's BLACK & WHITE !!!

What a hell ?
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 13:50, 08 May 15
Sounds like the capacitor isn't building up enough voltage to trigger RGB (1 - 3V) and the TV is reverting to Composite (0 - 0.4V). Are you sure that the correct signal is connected to the capacitor and that it's the correct way around?

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: G40rocket on 15:40, 08 May 15
Sounds like the capacitor isn't building up enough voltage to trigger RGB (1 - 3V) and the TV is reverting to Composite (0 - 0.4V). Are you sure that the correct signal is connected to the capacitor and that it's the correct way around?

Bryce.

Folks, nevermind, the problem was because the scart pin was not making good contact with the TV connectors so now the black & white image is fixed.

With capacitor or without the image has the same quality and for the "image noise" the culprit is my homemade power supply (i used an Tablet ac adaptor [5v 2A] with USB connection, peeled off a usb cable and soldered to a power jack, just for test).

At least i finally tested the Amstrad and power on !

About the scart connector i will buy a premium scart cable because the current one was very cheap (like chinese cables) and the wires are very thin thickness and probably that's the problem for a no perfect image.

Will give you more news and thanks everyone for your help/tips.

PS: Now the final step is treat the yellowing effect in the keys with retrobright method, for example the Enter blue keys are almost grey due the sunlight.

The plastic cases are very cleaned, looks like brand new and i cleaned the dust in the motherboard too and new thermal paste in the "amstrad cooler".  8)

Excellent community here.  :D
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 16:56, 08 May 15
Are you UK? I can tell you where to buy retrobrite off the shelf cheap as chips.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: G40rocket on 19:58, 08 May 15
Are you UK? I can tell you where to buy retrobrite off the shelf cheap as chips.

Nope, i'm from Portugal.

"Retrobright" product here is very cheap too, normally a small bottle (100 ml) cost me around 1,80 euro.

There are in more ammount but this is enough for the keyboard.

Thanks anyway. ;)
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: seanb on 21:51, 08 May 15
Are you UK? I can tell you where to buy retrobrite off the shelf cheap as chips.

You could tell me.
I promise I won't tell anyone
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 21:55, 08 May 15
LoL. Sure. Superdrug : Jerome Russell Bblonde 40 vol 12% peroxide. £1.69 for 75ml. Or Morrison's £1.89.

Use exact same as retrobrite.

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/08/c363a11c1a56754a10569fddb7344ed4.jpg)
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 22:03, 08 May 15
Yup, that's what I use too. You can even get it on Amazon (for twice the price) if it's not available in your country.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 22:04, 08 May 15
Now I just need a how to "remove the keys from your 6128" guide
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 22:08, 08 May 15
Slide a flat rigid piece of plastic (plastic knife) under each key and gently lever them off.

However, I'm not sure what effect Retrobrite would have on coloured plastic, it's also a bleaching process, so it may give very strange results. It's only really been tried on biege/white plastic up to now as far as I know.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: seanb on 22:13, 08 May 15
LoL. Sure. Superdrug : Jerome Russell Bblonde 40 vol 12% peroxide. £1.69 for 75ml. Or Morrison's £1.89.

Use exact same as retrobrite.

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/08/c363a11c1a56754a10569fddb7344ed4.jpg)

Thanks. I'll try that  :D
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 22:14, 08 May 15
Yea Bryce I thought the keys were supposes to be grey? Mine are dark yellow/ brownish.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 22:32, 08 May 15
Ah, it's a 6128. I'm confusing threads :D In another thread someone had just mentioned a 464 with off-colour keys.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: G40rocket on 22:47, 24 May 15
♣♣ Just a little off topic here ♣♣


So, after some days of sun and some hours of restoration i finally finished my CPC 464 job !!


Here it's the original condition when i received the computer at home:


Please pay attention to the keys condition specially the blue ones..




(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/47856730.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/47856730_24289230.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03641.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03643.jpg)




The initiation of treatment with "retrobright" or hair cream peroxide 40 Vol:




(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03644.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03646.jpg)



The original metal keyboard support had a lot of rust so I tried sanding and painted with matt black.


After cleaning each individual key here it's the final result and look the blue keys difference !


My phone camera is only 2MP so the quality isn't very good but the key color now looks AWESOME !

Like new !!




(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03656.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03657.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03658.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03659.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03660.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03661.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03662.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03663.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03664.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03665.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03666.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03667.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03668.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03669.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03671.jpg)



♥♥♥ AWESOME ♥♥♥
[/b]
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 22:50, 24 May 15
Looks real nice however I don't believe its the sun that does it, I put all my 6128 key caps into a plastic tub after painting and left in a warm pan for 4 hrs and got this... 

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/24/e1ffad477263be5d05c3a462112752c1.jpg)
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: EgoTrip on 22:59, 24 May 15
Are you sure you didn't cheat and use a time machine to go back to 1985?
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Carnivius on 23:14, 24 May 15
I may have to do this with my 464 too!  And my Amiga 1200.   To have them looking all shiny brand new again would be awesome. :)
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 23:17, 24 May 15
Forget retrobright Bblonde 40 vol 12% off the shelf £1.68 a bottle
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: chinnyhill10 on 23:23, 24 May 15
Forget retrobright Bblonde 40 vol 12% off the shelf £1.68 a bottle


Indeed. Here's my recent write up.


Adventures With Retrobrite (http://www.chinnyvision.com/index.php/written-bits/adventures-with-retrobrite)
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 23:39, 24 May 15
You need to change it, its 40 VOL (that's the thickness) and 12% hydrogen peroxide.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: G40rocket on 23:45, 24 May 15
AWESOME PEOPLE !  ;D


(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e63/aguia/DSC03672.jpg)
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Gryzor on 19:00, 07 June 15
Yup, that's what I use too. You can even get it on Amazon (for twice the price) if it's not available in your country.

Bryce.


It's *impossible* for it to not be available in some country. Maybe a different brand name, but even if it's not sold at the super market you can *always* walk into a beauty/hair salon and off you go with 2L of the stuff.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Bryce on 10:36, 08 June 15

It's *impossible* for it to not be available in some country. Maybe a different brand name, but even if it's not sold at the super market you can *always* walk into a beauty/hair salon and off you go with 2L of the stuff.

The Bblonde stuff isn't just a bottle peroxide. It's ready mixed Retrobrite with all the right ingredients mixed for you. There may be equivalents in other countries, but I haven't found anything close enough yet.

Bryce.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts & Restoration CPC Keys [Pag. 4]
Post by: a7mag3ddon on 10:39, 08 June 15
Agree with Bryce, Bblonde is fantastic, cheap and readily available in Superdrug, morisons, boots, suoersavers to name a few.

I bought 1 small bottle for £1.69 and did my entire 6128 keyboard.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: Gryzor on 12:06, 08 June 15
The Bblonde stuff isn't just a bottle peroxide. It's ready mixed Retrobrite with all the right ingredients mixed for you. There may be equivalents in other countries, but I haven't found anything close enough yet.

Bryce.


From what I had asked a hairdresser a long time ago (what one does for retro machines...:D ) the blonding (is that a word?) stuff they use nowadays are not just peroxide, indeed they're a mix of stuff including (of course) peroxide. No idea about the specifics though, to be honest. What else does Bblonde has?
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts
Post by: chinnyhill10 on 12:42, 08 June 15

From what I had asked a hairdresser a long time ago (what one does for retro machines... :D ) the blonding (is that a word?) stuff they use nowadays are not just peroxide, indeed they're a mix of stuff including (of course) peroxide. No idea about the specifics though, to be honest. What else does Bblonde has?


A gelling agent which makes it easy to paint on.
Title: Re: CPC 464 SCART Cable doubts & Restoration CPC Keys [Pag. 4]
Post by: Gryzor on 12:45, 08 June 15
Sounds about right...