SymbOS 2.1 Final released

[Prodatron]

I have some Wiznet 5100 modules to try to attach to the CPC so any development to the DenYoNet MSX device should be recycled for the CPC No RAM mode for it to work on CPC, but has a nice I/O port access mode with autoincrement reading so not much speed will be lost, I think...

That sounds really cool! An ethernet card with own TCP/IP stack is one of the last missing hardware for the CPC I think...

Do you have a PCW (8256 or 8512)? I could lend you my mouse adapter if you would like to get it working with symbos?
BTW I am really excited about all the things here, especially HxC support, so please let us know of any updates (or if you want any testing done).

Yes, I have a PCW8512. I didn't switch it on since 2007, so I will probably have to exchange the drive belts and try to dig out some 3" discs for it first. Thank you very much for the offer, I will let you know as soon as my PCW is running again!

@TFM: Thanks for testing! But wasn't it crashing in the past on a real CPC? I never had access to this hardware mod made by Yarek, so I could only test it with WinApe.

CU,
Prodatron

[TFM]

@TFM: Thanks for testing! But wasn't it crashing in the past on a real CPC? I never had access to this hardware mod made by Yarek, so I could only test it with WinApe.

It's a pain in the XX to develop without the real hardware as we know. Yes, there was an issue before, but now in version 2.1 everything seems to run pretty well. You did a really good job! 

[RockRiver]

Please don't forget future AYC file support on SymAMP 
Thanks for keep our 8bit & best GUI alive

[Prodatron]

Please don't forget future AYC file support on SymAMP 

Yes, so many additional formats have to be added to SymAmp, like AYC, Dual-PT3 (for the Playcity) and Moonblaster (for the MSX)... 

[Jckf]

Decided to give this a try, since it's one of the few cool things you can use on a stock 6128, and wanted to point a few things out / get some help.


The documentation states that machines with only 128kBs of RAM should disable the wallpaper and screensaver after first booting. This is not possible, as the system does not have enough memory available to open the display settings. My work-around was to immediately remove the disc once the desktop showed, so that the wallpaper did not get a chance to load, but this is only that, a work-around.


The other problem I had/have is that even though the system settings let you change the boot disc and system path, the system does not want to behave properly when booted from drive B. It will fail to find applications, control panel, and so on. Time for another work-around: Short pins 11 and 12 on the B drives cable to make it behave as A. Forget this one. The changes in system settings work. I must have done something wrong the first time around.

[Prodatron]

Thanks for trying! I am glad that you figured out how to save the system path/boot drive settings.

Decided to give this a try, since it's one of the few cool things you can use on a stock 6128, and wanted to point a few things out / get some help.


The documentation states that machines with only 128kBs of RAM should disable the wallpaper and screensaver after first booting. This is not possible, as the system does not have enough memory available to open the display settings. My work-around was to immediately remove the disc once the desktop showed, so that the wallpaper did not get a chance to load, but this is only that, a work-around.

Yes, it seems, that this note is too much hidden:
http://www.symbos.de/download.htm#marke3
"Important information for CPCs and MSXs with ONLY 128K ram! [...] CPC users have to delete the SYMBOS.INI file on the disc when booting the first time. SymbOS will then start with a minimum configuration."

I am not sure, but maybe the next version will have an installer for the CPC version, too (currently MSX only). That could probably make sense, as you won't have such situations anymore...

[Jckf]

Ah. Then there are two sets of instructions for the same operation. Because one calls for a right-click on the desktop.

[Prodatron]

Ops, I didn't update the SymbOS-Doc-OS.txt since 2006 (1.0 release)... Thanks for the hint!

[TFM]

Gave Tetris a go, but it crashed. Is it a problem of WinCPC?

[Trebmint]

Gave Tetris a go, but it crashed. Is it a problem of WinCPC?

Not sure why, but it will be an issue with symbasic which edoz used and not symbos. Symstudio is still not at a final release, which should happen this side of christmas. Its actually hard to stop Edoz coding apps even when the language isn't finished and still buggy, but its also fixing the issues as we go. Hopefully this next release will solve all of the known issues, plus add a whole load more goodies.

[TFM]

Hi! Do you have a link to the command list of Symbasic?

[Trebmint]

Not sure why, but it will be an issue with symbasic which edoz used and not symbos. Symstudio is still not at a final release, which should happen this side of christmas. Its actually hard to stop Edoz coding apps even when the language isn't finished and still buggy, but its also fixing the issues as we go. Hopefully this next release will solve all of the known issues, plus add a whole load more goodies.

Actually I think this might be Edoz's fault, and I never spotted it before. Perhaps this is the issue with cross platform development, in that he's coded for the MSX which has 16 colours. Problem with that is that every fourth colour is black on the CPC. So blocks are coming down the screen that are effectively invisible. Needs changing, but it has nothing to do with Symbos or Winape.


One of the issues I think Symbos will face is that MSX coders will code purely for MSX, CPC for CPC, Enterprise for Enterprise. Most will work fine, but some care has to be paid in the design process to make sure it works for everyone. The problem being that many MSX user dont care if it works on the CPC, and likewise the CPC community doesnt care if it works for the MSX either. This is mostly the case for palette and hardware, or if people design for Turbo R speed on other machine etc

[Trebmint]

Hi! Do you have a link to the command list of Symbasic?

Yes, but its changing as I'm trying to go in a more modern OO looking direction. For instance currently I use commands such as RefreshObj Button1_Id to get Symbos to Redraw an Control. I'm altering this to Button1.Refresh()
This change is mainly as I'm aware that a new language is a large time expenditure for people and if you can type Button1 or the name of a control you created in the form and be given the options auomatically its better than having to remember a few hundred commands.
Im trying to use this throughout the language. It reads nicer, looks more modern. Unfortunately as an oldskool coder the design of the language to start with wasnt what it should have been.


There is probably a release of Symstudio final at the end of this month hopefully

[TFM]

About the 16 colors... Would it help if instead of repeating the 4 colors 4 times one would use the four colors and then 12 times a mix of the four colors...wait... ok, getting tight... mixes out of 2 or 3 colors would do. But that's probably not so easy to implement.

[Prodatron]

About the 16 colors... Would it help if instead of repeating the 4 colors 4 times one would use the four colors and then 12 times a mix of the four colors...wait... ok, getting tight... mixes out of 2 or 3 colors would do. But that's probably not so easy to implement.

This is how SymbOS handles colours (2,4,16):

Not sure what you mean about "repeating 4 colours"? The colours are sorted to have black/white (mode 2) and greyscale (mode 1) results if you cut the upper bits. This makes it possible to display all graphics on platform independant displays (CPC+PCW+Enterprise -> 2 colours, CPC+MSX+Enterprise -> 4 colours, MSX -> 16 colours) with different colour depth in a very optimized way

[TFM]

I referred to Trebmints post.


EDIT: Try to explain myself...  ... CPC has 2 and 4 colors mode, but MSX has also the 16 colors mode. My idea was to "simulate" the 16 color mode on CPC by f.e. dithering, mixing the available colors.

[Prodatron]

Sure, I know.

[MacDeath]

What about the dithered palette in hight resolution ?

PC1512 style or NEC PC8801 style (or even Pasopia7 style)...

[Edoz(MSX)]

Gave Tetris a go, but it crashed. Is it a problem of WinCPC?

I found out that it is a bug in Tetris. If you press the start button, Tetris does not check,if it is already running. I will fix it.
 
 

[Edoz(MSX)]

About Tetris. Tetris is ok with 4 color mode. But there is also a bug in Tetris using 2 color mode. I will fix this also. And there was a bug using keyboard keys to move the mouse. I noticed it on the enterprise. But this is fixed already. I always try to make it platform independent.

[Morri]

Yes, but its changing as I'm trying to go in a more modern OO looking direction. For instance currently I use commands such as RefreshObj Button1_Id to get Symbos to Redraw an Control. I'm altering this to Button1.Refresh()
This change is mainly as I'm aware that a new language is a large time expenditure for people and if you can type Button1 or the name of a control you created in the form and be given the options auomatically its better than having to remember a few hundred commands.
Im trying to use this throughout the language. It reads nicer, looks more modern. Unfortunately as an oldskool coder the design of the language to start with wasnt what it should have been.


There is probably a release of Symstudio final at the end of this month hopefully

Hi @Trebmint , I was just wondering if there was an update for this release (not trying to rush you or anything ). I just have a new game idea (I'm not a coder, I have just been using game creators i.e. Sprites Alive) and I reckon this would be the perfect solution.

[Trebmint]

Hi @Trebmint , I was just wondering if there was an update for this release (not trying to rush you or anything ). I just have a new game idea (I'm not a coder, I have just been using game creators i.e. Sprites Alive) and I reckon this would be the perfect solution.

Hey, don't worry this is still on going. There will be a release around new year which is a modern and complete update of symbasic, but it will still be within the symbos structure which isn't ideal for games - meaning mainly its designed for windows/forms/crossplatform - though simple games run quite happily.
There are a number of steps until what I've got planned for a final version which is very much in the mould of a 2d version of Unity for z80, and this doesnt have a timescale yet. It also depends a lot on prodatron and his work with symbos. I would imagine Symbos 3.0 will be out by then and Symstudio/Unify will be supporting it. We will have to see where we are when I release the final symstudio. Certainly I have plans to make a symbos VM for Windows,Mac,Linux,Android & IOS, which integrates Unify as a direct development system

[Morri]

Thanks for the update. I think my game idea is simple enough hopefully to work in symbasic but perhaps I should get your thoughts before going too far.

It will be a mode 1 game, require no animation / scrolling and movement will be by 16 pixel blocks. The screen will be a 10 x 10 grid, each grid having a 16x16 pixel sprite = 160x160 total (the player will move from grid to grid, left/right/up/down only) with some sort of status panel to the side showing health, items collected or something similar.
It would need to store data for multiple screens as the character leaves one screen it would appear on a new one.
Simple AI for enemies, who also move grid by grid - if player is below you, move 1 grid down towards player.

What do you think the limits of symbasic will be? Size of files possible, number of variables, number of sprites able to be stored etc...?

[Trebmint]

Thanks for the update. I think my game idea is simple enough hopefully to work in symbasic but perhaps I should get your thoughts before going too far.

It will be a mode 1 game, require no animation / scrolling and movement will be by 16 pixel blocks. The screen will be a 10 x 10 grid, each grid having a 16x16 pixel sprite = 160x160 total (the player will move from grid to grid, left/right/up/down only) with some sort of status panel to the side showing health, items collected or something similar.
It would need to store data for multiple screens as the character leaves one screen it would appear on a new one.
Simple AI for enemies, who also move grid by grid - if player is below you, move 1 grid down towards player.

What do you think the limits of symbasic will be? Size of files possible, number of variables, number of sprites able to be stored etc...?

Sounds very feasible even with symbasic as it is. The more symbos developers and apps the better:) I plan to have a symbos development competition early 2015.
As for size... well apps can be 63k, but you can reserve as many 16k banks for data after that as you need, and the new yet to be implemented GFX library allows for 64k of quick graphics with some very nice effects

[Prodatron]

@Morri: That sounds very nice and realistic! In this case SymBasic should be best for it. Handling 100 objects on the playfield + some additional controls isn't a problem at all. And I really like such kind of games!