Author Topic: A discussion on WWII Germany  (Read 15804 times)

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Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #75 on: 08:37, 09 September 11 »
Sorry, this is all revisionism and apologetics in defense of the Nazi system.

-Yes, the books are written by the winners, but a.this doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong and b.by now all aspects of the war have been studied quite extensively. Allied crimes have been well documented, but this doesn't mean there's anything justifiable or even comparable to the German crimes.
-As said before, one thing is a concentration camp, another is an extermination camp. Get this right...
-You do realize how it sounds when you say it's less painful, the way people died in the hands of the Germans, right??
    -first you compare it to... Romans. Really? You're comparing mass murder to the extreme degree, today, with a very few (comparatively) incidents... two thousand years ago?
    -second, you fail to realize that before the gas came those victims had gone through hell and back, many thousands of them even dying on the way to the camps
    -third, gas was not used because it was less painful, but because it was more efficient in killing large numbers of people. Oh, to some degree it *was* used because it was less painful - to the killers (this, after Himmler attended a mass shooting in the East and fainted; apparently killing people with a bullet in the neck just in front of you and being covered in brains and blood was too stressful for the killers, so they started experimenting with other means)
-Yes, the Israelis exhibit a remarkable gusto in mimicking their own torturers.... so what? Last time I checked we were talking about WWII Germany here? If you want to discuss Palestine, please feel free to open a new thread instead of derailing focus in an effort to put the blame away, ok?

I think you're doing the most dangerous thing that can be done - whitewashing the Nazis by trying to compare them to others. A very, very slippery road.

Offline AMSDOS

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #76 on: 09:52, 09 September 11 »
Not quite. Not only did they take everything several steps further, but this resulted in them being the first to use slavery on such a mass scale for extermination purposes. Sorry, you can't compare them with th past colonists, no matter how harsh and brutal they were.

While what I'm about to say doesn't fall into the category of slavery, and am not trying to declare war with Brits, I thought it was terrible that many Aussies were killed unnecessarily at Gallipoli, something to do with orders to charge the enemy (with a Gatling Gun). I think more Aussies have been killed there than in any of the other wars we've been involved in. But then that's Wars for you.
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Offline AMSDOS

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #77 on: 10:11, 09 September 11 »
I think you're doing the most dangerous thing that can be done - whitewashing the Nazis by trying to compare them to others. A very, very slippery road.

Well I only felt that All Wars are horrible and are triggered when a significant event occurs or someone wants more power. Probably just some Corporate Psychopath which has made Presidency or is some kind of power force which drives the right people!  :o  People who say you can win Wars are crazy!
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Offline redbox

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #78 on: 12:41, 09 September 11 »
Sorry, this is all revisionism


It has surprised me in the past just how much revisionism you do hear from normal, ordinary Germans today.  Guess they're a proud people with an embarassing past.


Is also weird how our history curriculums must differ at school - I took a German friend of mine to the Imperial War Museum (his request) and he hadn't seen a lot of the stuff there before, especially the photographs and descriptions of some of the horrors that were going on during war-time Germany - and it was all stuff I had previously seen at school.

Offline MacDeath

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #79 on: 13:04, 09 September 11 »
Quote
Actually they learnt from:
- US government, how to erase races
- Brittish empire, how to make a concentration camp
- French Grande Nation (in Africa), how to deal with prisoners for work
Finally they invented nothing new in salvery, instead they took over the ideas of others. This may surprise you? I this case read French, Brittish, Russian, US literature from before 1945.
can't be compared...

=Most of the conquest in the colonisation occured in past era (1600-1900)
=While some massacres occured the aim was not to completely erradicate said populations on overall.
=in case of USA ok perhaps, but you have to know that diseases did most of the work even before europeans explored the area.
=said acts occured by "technological superior" Europeans against "low tech" civilizations.

Nazi Germany did this to other industrialised Europeans.
and also killed many of their own population either.



But ok, most colonial countries have their share of unfair treatments against those civilizations, but they also bring technological advancements to those somewhat reluctant peoples.
While revolts and killings existed, the colonial countries also tried to get some Elite from said populations to rule them for them.

In some areas, Colonizations wasn't that bad as it could be an opportunity for some of the colonized peoples to get some decent educations and job.
But yes, it is quite controversial to enlight the few benevoliant aspects of colonial era... (to say the least) as large majority of those civilisation were dominated.


Hey, I didn't said French or Britons from the 17-19th century weren't some sort of barbarians  in modern standards of today...

Quote
Is also weird how our history curriculums must differ at school
Yeah...
while France And Germany did some effort on this concerning the WW2 era (we have quite the same common version in history books), we can see the recent feud between Japan and China on the matter.


But hey, this is stone age to us...

they even had no proper computers to run lawnmower simulator...
really stone age of computer Era...
We are far ahead of this as we knew the 80's.


the wonderfull era of :
= bighairs
= homecomputers
= wonderfull Arcade golden era
= electro-pop and hair-metal
= stupid toy-lines based cartoons
= Red (USSR) was evil and Blue (USA) was good (See, V, GI joe, and many many more...)

an era were future was called "Cyberpunk" .
Today, we call "cyberpunk" "now" and it is not as flashy chrome man-machine plugged cyber as it used to be yet we are even more screwed by Financial mega corpos)


By the way I still have my 70's longhair...
« Last Edit: 13:16, 09 September 11 by MacDeath »

Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #80 on: 19:29, 09 September 11 »
Sorry, this is all revisionism and apologetics in defense of the Nazi system.
No, not at all. And I guess I have no reason to apologize. But as you see, the POVs are very different here.
EDIT: When I read the last posts, then I see that it is appreciated to keep the Nazis as Archdevils and to ignore anything else. But honestly arguments like "you can't compare this, because (other date, country, political system etc.)" are IMHO all excuses. You can compare very well, and I don't see why you still insist to make the Nazis the meanest of all times. You are pretty much ignoring what Stalin or Mao did. Or maybe you just don't know? Stalin killed more Jews than the Nazis, and for sure as brute. Mao killed more than all the others, and this in a very brute way. Even today in China they take your organs if you don't agree with the system. I but you haven't heart that before in the official mainstream propaganda of the winners.
And please don't tell me to open a new thread for todays topics, since you discuss times back till the Roman empier - which was not ww2.
« Last Edit: 19:42, 09 September 11 by TFM/FS »
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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #81 on: 19:54, 09 September 11 »
And I guess I have no reason to apologize.


sure you have no reason to apologize about Nazis methods


but in the meantime


it would be a nice gesture from germany to


PAY the 1,2+ trillions EUROS that owes to Hellas
« Last Edit: 19:56, 09 September 11 by spybro »

Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #82 on: 19:59, 09 September 11 »

sure you have no reason to apologize about Nazis methods


but in the meantime


it would be a nice gesture from germany to


PAY the 1,2+ trillions EUROS that owes to Hellas
So Germany owes money to Greece? How did this happen? Well, I thought that Greece owes a lot of money to others (bankers) and therefore they have troubles now.
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Offline spybro

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #83 on: 20:13, 09 September 11 »
So Germany owes money to Greece? How did this happen?


Im not gonna answer that
Search it and you will find out how true this is!
I guess Angela is not saying the full story to the german people

Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #84 on: 21:05, 09 September 11 »

Im not gonna answer that
Search it and you will find out how true this is!
I guess Angela is not saying the full story to the german people
All so called "news" are biased, and I don't expect to get good news in the news. However I can only guess what you're talking about. Maybe you're talking about some banks? If you start the story, go for it and tell it. Or at least tell me for what I shall search the web.
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Offline AMSDOS

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #85 on: 01:11, 10 September 11 »
And please don't tell me to open a new thread for todays topics, since you discuss times back till the Roman empier - which was not ww2.


That was my fault for starting that Roman Empire conquest thing happening, which I raised since the discussion was on Invaders which evolved into Killings, Slavery or simply people adapting to Roman traits. Is it wrong to discuss other wars and compare them in relation to WW2?
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Offline AMSDOS

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #86 on: 01:14, 10 September 11 »
All so called "news" are biased,


plus they all talk like a bunch of Zombies!
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Offline robcfg

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #87 on: 05:08, 10 September 11 »
Wasn't the banking system a jew invention?  :P


I have nothing personal against jews, and I'm pretty sure 99% of them are normal people like us; but, traditionally they have always played with everybody's money (to their benefit of course) and that's why they have been prosecuted throughout history.


I pretty much agree with TFM, the Nazi leaders were evil, but the leaders of the countries that won the war weren't angels. That's what I was trying to say that there is no good or evil side on a war, there are winners and losers, and that winners are not necessarily good.


In spain we had a dictator, called Francisco Franco, which was bad for some things and executed a lot of people, but mos of the infrastructures we have today in Spain were built by him. Again, things are not black and white.

Offline Devilmarkus

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #88 on: 11:22, 10 September 11 »
And the most important question:
What has our generation to do with this crap?
Why it's still our fault that there was a Hitler?
When you put your ear on a hot stove, you can smell how stupid you are ...

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Offline MacDeath

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #89 on: 12:26, 10 September 11 »
Wellwellwell...

this thread seems to go full war... :(





Offline robcfg

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #90 on: 13:57, 10 September 11 »
And the most important question:
What has our generation to do with this crap?
Why it's still our fault that there was a Hitler?


Obviously it's not our fault, it was the Austrians'!  :P


Can you imagine how would it be the world today if Hitler were admitted to the Vienna Arts Academy?


The first thing that comes to mind is that most probably the CPC wouldn't exist... aaaaand we wouldn't have meet because there would be no CPC Wiki...


See? Things are not black and white! (I'm just looking on the bright side of life today XDDDDDDDDDD)

Offline AMSDOS

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #91 on: 14:29, 10 September 11 »

Obviously it's not our fault, it was the Austrians'!  :P


Can you imagine how would it be the world today if Hitler were admitted to the Vienna Arts Academy?


The first thing that comes to mind is that most probably the CPC wouldn't exist... aaaaand we wouldn't have meet because there would be no CPC Wiki...


See? Things are not black and white! (I'm just looking on the bright side of life today XDDDDDDDDDD)

Really?!? Don't you believe in the Six Degrees of Separation?  ;D
 
Spoiler: ShowHide
I'm sorry if I'm taking this into deep levels. What confuses me with all those lives being lost during WWII, surely a number of those victims were people known to the Nazi's? Were things really that Divided that there was no connection between them and someone on the other side of the line, I just find that part difficult to believe that if that was the case.
« Last Edit: 14:35, 10 September 11 by CP/M User »
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Offline spybro

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #92 on: 16:15, 10 September 11 »
Wasn't the banking system a jew invention?  :P


Actually the Templars invented the banking system!


In spain we had a dictator, called Francisco Franco, which was bad for some things and executed a lot of people, but mos of the infrastructures we have today in Spain were built by him


same thing applies in Hellas too only the name changes which in our case is Papadopoulos


That's what I was trying to say that there is no good or evil side on a war


Yes but in the case of Germany it wasnt just a war it was an obsession about aryan race and Genocide


there are winners and losers, and that winners are not necessarily good


I guess you are right about this one since there is a lot of soviet dna in berlin even today
the atrocities the soviets did when they invaded Berlin are equally evil as Hitler's
« Last Edit: 16:36, 10 September 11 by spybro »

Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #93 on: 20:49, 10 September 11 »
@redbox: from my personal experience, there appears to be much denial and shame in really decent persons. I remember a time when I scared off a very nice (and pretty... stupid me) German girl when I took the discussion to the money and gold the Germans stole from the Greek Central Bank (a big topic nowadays, since Germany never paid it off). You should see her running, all red in the face... And I didn't even mention any attrocities etc!

@TFM: sorry mate, but all you do is deflecting. As I said before, we're discussing Germany in WWII. A standard tactic of someone wanting to excuse/hide something is to deflect and start comparing to other, relevant or irrelevant issues. Also, the discussion is not about Hitler, so as to compare with Mao or Stalin. Sooooo, well, let's get it out of the way: Mao and Stalin were perhaps worse than Hitler. Ok? Now let's focus back on Germany.
   
The parenthesis about Rome was not to compare it to Germany (only you did that), but some interesting points came out of it. It was still off-topic and had no bearing on the current discussion.

@Spybro/TFM: oh, someone actually brought it up! :D. Ok, a small parenthesis; when the Germans invaded Greece they did two things (well, among others): they stole a big (BIG) amount of gold, and they imposed a huge loan from Greece to Germany. Especially concerning the latter, Hitler even approved its paying back towards the end of the war (but the relevant money never arrived). This has nothing to do with war reparations, those two stories were pure monetary issues. Typically Germany still owed hundreds of billions of euros (compound interest included), and of course they never paid any reparations either.

And this is how it happened...

@robcfg: banking actually dates from ancient mesopotamia, though through centuries it acquired many more functions.

Also, that's exactly what I was saying - and about Churchill, too, who's considered a saint of sorts - that the leaders of the winners were not necessarily better. But this means nothing. You focus your argument on the leaders and forget all about the peoples...

Concerning Franco, I think you're making some mistakes here; in Greece, too, there are people saying "ooh, the junta build the university campus and did this and that, and (fascist dictator) Metaxas (who also said the famous "No!" to the Italians) built the social insurance program", but there are two problems with this line of argument.
-First, the fact that Franco did some things doesn't mean someone else wouldn't have done them
-Second, to paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, those who value <whatever> more than freedom deserve nor freedom or <whatever>.  Your argument is an argument for a Benevolent Ruler (and Franco was anything but). And this is several steps backwards. Sometimes yes, it *is* black and white, as in Franco was a fascist dictator, period.
   
@Devilmarkus: you're attempting to discount historic continuity. Every people, just as they might be proud of their past (say, about Goethe or Socrates) so they must bear the shame about their darker moments (like Hitler or Papandreou). And Hitler is pretty much in the present, not in the past. 60 years is *nothing* in historical terms. What's more, the problem is not that you, or a 20- or 30-year-old German is responsible per se for the Jews that their grandfather executed in cold blood, but mainly because there has be no atonement for it. Rather, if you step outside the German media, you'll see direct parallels running between the efforts of Hitler and the efforts of Angela - just the means differ. No, the war is not your responsibility, but it *is* (or should be) your collective shame for which you should try to make things better.

@Maceath: I don't think the thread is a flame, far from it; actually I'm really happy we're having a quite civilised discussion on *very* sensitive matters...

@Robcfg: I had actually read a short alternative history story in which Hitler actually wnt on painting... ah, the paths of life.

@spybro: actually, revenge is totally different from unprovoked agression. It is true that the Soviets behaved like animals in Germany, but after all they had suffered it's not hard to understand the why.

Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #94 on: 01:03, 11 September 11 »
Ok, I gave it some more thought - to the thing about carrying both the good and bad.

In the end, I think, it's the question of what a nation is. "Nation" is nothing without its collective memory and shared history. If you (in general) don't think that what happened in the past affects you, then, I think, it's clear that you either do not believe in the notion of a nation or you don't consider yourself part of that nation. You can't have your pie and eat it.

But I think that what you (Markus) say, is a denial that signals some sort of guilt. Please, don't take this wrong, I'm not meaning this as an insult, and it's a conjecture on my part. And it's the last thing I want to do, to incite nationalist and insulting passions. Yet, nobody accused you personally or anyone else of being responsible for your grandfathers. The fact that you *say* it has nothing to do with you shows, I believe, that deep down it does affect you, but you want to shake it off.

Here's an interesting video I came to from an irrelevant blog a few minutes ago; nothing new, but it's interesting because so few films exist from occupied Greece. The guy who shot those scenes hid his camera in a tin cup, one of those everyone used to get their lunch from communal kitchens - when lucky enough. If you can tell me this has nothing to do with you does not concern you then I think there's something very wrong...

Σπάνιο οπτικό υλικό από την Γερμανική Κατοχή
« Last Edit: 10:08, 11 September 11 by Gryzor »

Offline spybro

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #95 on: 16:58, 11 September 11 »
sorry  i do not have the time to translate
but use an online translator to learn some hard facts that you will never see on the news!


http://distomo.blogspot.com/2011/09/blog-post_8942.html


http://www.agelioforos.gr/default.asp?pid=7&ct=10&artid=110817

Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #96 on: 18:03, 11 September 11 »
Well, I don't think the topic of discussion is whether those things happened or not... there are a great many atrocities committed the world does not know much about ("Hier sind Kandanos" for instance?) but I don't know if it adds much to the discussion to start cataloguing them; I'd like to think we do agree that a tremendous amount, beyond any calculation and belief, was caused and leave it at that.

Offline MaV

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #97 on: 21:12, 11 September 11 »
Well, I don't think the topic of discussion is whether those things happened or not... there are a great many atrocities committed the world does not know much about ("Hier sind Kandanos" for instance?) but I don't know if it adds much to the discussion to start cataloguing them; I'd like to think we do agree that a tremendous amount, beyond any calculation and belief, was caused and leave it at that.

Anyone who has read about WWII will have of quite a few instances like that. While I didn't know about this one in particular, I also don't think any detailed information like this adds much to the discussion.

@TFM, DevilMarkus: I'm sorry, but Gryzor is right.
Yeah, call me an asshole for that, but that's not the way to reflect on one's past. Again, I don't exclude myself here for being Austrian. While it's been called "occupation", there was a not so small part of our population which openly welcomed the Nazis, and some of them sucked so hard up the Nazi's asses to prove that they belonged to the aryan race that they turned out to be even worse than their Geman role models.

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #98 on: 11:56, 12 September 11 »
Quote
In spain we had a dictator, called Francisco Franco, which was bad for some things and executed a lot of people, but mos of the infrastructures we have today in Spain were built by him
Quote
Francisco Franco
Must be some French screwing...


Yeah, Portugal got Salazar, Spain Franco (which means freedom, ironically), Greece got some colonels military regime too if i recall well...?

Got to remember it was cold war either.

Even General DeGaulle was not that good on democratic matters while president...

As a matter of fact, even non-democratic regimes can build a country, look at ghaddaf's Lybia.. Or even Hitler's Autobahn and so on...

it was quite modern in an industrial way...

But hey, you get harrassed just because you may criptical on the regime or even if you have no well placed friend or just by being on the wrong spot on the wrong time...
Corruption is a problem too because strong leader means each little king in every administration is a little dictator not because he got his place thx to studies or merit but because he is polotically in tune with the power.

uncompetent poeples get the places because they are a lot into the enforcement of the regime.

Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #99 on: 12:07, 12 September 11 »
And you're forgetting Sadam Hussein, too. Incidentall, Libya and Iraq were the most progressive Arab countries. Figures about literacy, health and infrastructures speak for themselves. Yet Gadhaffi turned into a lunatic and Sadam was always a butcher. So?