Author Topic: A discussion on WWII Germany  (Read 15393 times)

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Offline redbox

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #25 on: 14:12, 30 August 11 »
"In shock" is probably more true.


Agreed, a better way of putting it!

Offline Bryce

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #26 on: 14:24, 30 August 11 »
I don't think you can put the whole of France into one catagory regarding their reaction to the Germans. The country effectively split into two very different groups. One part formed a very sofisticated (but a little late) resistance against the Germans, whereas the other part took the classic Kent Brockman approach: "I, for one welcome our new German overlords"...

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Offline redbox

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #27 on: 14:45, 30 August 11 »
The country effectively split into two very different groups. One part formed a very sofisticated (but a little late) resistance against the Germans, whereas the other part took the classic Kent Brockman approach: "I, for one welcome our new German overlords"...


You mean the part that realised, after all, they didn't like their new German overlords and thought maybe they should do something about it.  :P


Trolling, of course...  ;)

Offline MaV

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #28 on: 16:34, 30 August 11 »
I don't think you can put the whole of France into one catagory regarding their reaction to the Germans. The country effectively split into two very different groups. One part formed a very sofisticated (but a little late) resistance against the Germans, whereas the other part took the classic Kent Brockman approach: "I, for one welcome our new German overlords"...

Yes, that came later. But the first reaction must have been shock. That's why there hardly was any resistance during the invasion to begin with.
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Offline Bryce

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #29 on: 16:59, 30 August 11 »
Actually, I think one of the most cruel consequences of this, was that BBC viewers had to endure 10 years of 'Allo Allo!, Gorden Kayes painfully bad French accent and some of the worst sitcom scenes ever inflicted on mankind. Nobody should have to endure that kind of torture, it's inhumane. :D

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Offline SyX

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #30 on: 17:16, 30 August 11 »
Not only the BBC viewers, my friend, in Spain we suffered too :laugh: ... lucky for us, we can enjoy the "Young Ones" and "Doctor Who", too  ;D

Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #31 on: 18:41, 30 August 11 »
What's about Torchwood? They still owe me 27 licenses for FutureOS. And BBC don't want to pay!  :laugh:
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Offline SyX

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #32 on: 18:56, 30 August 11 »
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Offline AMSDOS

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #33 on: 12:48, 31 August 11 »
Yes and no. Historians estimate that about a million humans were killed during Cesar's conquest in what is now France. Sounds not that big a number in relation to what happened in recent times, but populations in Ancient times were much smaller.

I have a slight problem when it comes to population numbers in ancient times mainly because the world had people scattered all over the place. It's feasible there would have been less people from today's standards, though we could be badly underestimating how many people were around 2000 years ago. It's one of those thoughts I'm just having trouble with because things like the Pyramids were built from people - not aliens as people would say, and I think in many ways some of our modern habits don't even consider how ancient structures were constructed - there used to be an excellent show with a team of problem solvers trying to work out how something was built and some of them were baffled how it was done. The Pyramids for instance has been suggested the Nile played an important role, so in that regard understanding what the Landscape was doing in the past has a role too as ancient cultures used the Land to their benefit.

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The Romans themselves could not have done that alone, instead they incited the rivalries between celtic tribes, waited for them to weaken each other and then seized the opportunity and conquered both with less military force. Still, the celts were hardly unarmed, and could have done serious damage to the Roman troops, but Roman strategy and tactics made the difference.

Seems feasible approach and would strategically be to their advantage. The Romans dominated the landscape and I presume that across Europe there are signs of where they made their mark with a building, I don't quite understand their motive for expanding their invasion forces across Europe and into Britain, I presume it's merely due to their lifestyle and adopting that approach across Europe. In that regard it would seen incredible that they took luxury lifestyles across Europe.  ;D
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Offline AMSDOS

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #34 on: 12:53, 31 August 11 »
Actually, I think one of the most cruel consequences of this, was that BBC viewers had to endure 10 years of 'Allo Allo!, Gorden Kayes painfully bad French accent and some of the worst sitcom scenes ever inflicted on mankind. Nobody should have to endure that kind of torture, it's inhumane. :D

Bryce.

10 Years of pain from to much laughing!  :laugh:  And did they ever establish if the Fallen Madonna with the Big Boobies was really Helga?  8)
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Offline Bryce

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #35 on: 12:57, 31 August 11 »
You LIKED 'Allo Allo! ??  :o - Speechless.

Bryce.

Offline robcfg

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #36 on: 13:01, 31 August 11 »
Hey! I liked it too!


I almost die laughing when Herr Flick from the gestapo runs hidden in a medieval armor  :P


It's me... LeClerck!!!

Offline AMSDOS

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #37 on: 13:03, 31 August 11 »
You LIKED 'Allo Allo! ??  :o - Speechless.

Bryce.

Yeah well, from memory it was well received in Australia even if it's poorly portrayed, to us that makes it even funnier!
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #38 on: 20:45, 31 August 11 »
@CP/M: well, Mav covered me with his note on copies surviving until this very day, thus giving us a very precise knowledge of not only what our ancestors were thinking but also on how they lived.

As for the Nazis: actually, they wanted to exterminate the Jews, the Communists, the gays, the crippled, the feeble-minded... the list goes on. Oh, and they also wanted to enslave the other peoples, something which the Romans did not do.
   
As for the Japanese: that was a coalition born out of necessity, not of a shared ideology. My enemy's enemy is my own friend and so on. But the Americans were very well into a war with the Japanese, they just didn't call it that. For a long time before the Pearl Harbor attack the US had imposed an oil (and other goods) embargo on the Japan, which in itself is a casus belli and a clear act of war. They enforced it with their naval forces and were choking Japan slowly but steadily. Thus it came as no surprise when the Japanese lashed forward, really.
   
Oh, also, about the subs you mentioned - I think you're referring to the japanese midget subs, which although crude were a really novel weapon.
   
@robcfg: I think the label 'cowards' is a but over the top. I really don't have any evidence for it except for stereotypical references... As a matter of fact, if it weren't for Dunkirk I guess we'd be talking about the cowardice of the Brits as well :D

Offline robcfg

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #39 on: 21:00, 31 August 11 »
Eeehhhhh.... I think you are mistaken, I didn't call anyone coward.


I think I didn't say anything, even though there are extremely funny jokes about it, because I would like to enjoy the company of the french members much longer...  ;D


Seriously, I think you just misread the one who posted about it. Wasn't it redbox?

Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #40 on: 21:03, 31 August 11 »
Erm - yes, apologies.

Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #41 on: 21:37, 31 August 11 »
Some comments here seem to come out of the book and some opinions seem to put too much in the same box.
In general it's very important to separate the people of a country, the high command of the army and the government. So it's not the most smartest to talk about the British, Irish, Italian, Spanisch, French, Austrian, Norwegians, Swedish, Finnish, Russian, Polish, Guatemalisch, Germans or whoever. The governments will is quite often different from the peoples will. That should be considered.
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Offline robcfg

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #42 on: 01:26, 01 September 11 »
I think we all agree on that, and that is what keep this thread nice to read.


I'd even say that it should be renamed as "A discussion on the WWI World", in the end it was a World War...  :)

Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #43 on: 06:45, 01 September 11 »
Yes, and according to Rumsfeld it's not over, just the weapons have changed...
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #44 on: 08:41, 01 September 11 »
Well, IIRC the Nazi party had less than 10 million members at its height (2 millions when it rose to power). But the war was fought, aided, perpetrated and tolerated by a whole people.

I do understand the need to avoid racist generalisations, but not acknowledging this is not only a gross historical mistake but also extremely dangerous. Germany could never have done what it did with only the aid of a small percentage of its populace. Haven't you seen newsreels of villagers jeering as a village's Jews were being dragged to their doom?

As for separating the high command from its people - well, it leads to the classic retort in all the de-nazification trials: "I was just following orders". No, sir.

Offline AMSDOS

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #45 on: 12:03, 01 September 11 »
@CP/M: well, Mav covered me with his note on copies surviving until this very day, thus giving us a very precise knowledge of not only what our ancestors were thinking but also on how they lived.

Sorry I wasn't denying any documentation Mav might of had through the ages. I only had an issue with the number of lives which were taken during the Roman Conquest. Did Romans keep a Tally on the number of people they killed?
The only troubling aspect are people were kill in a selective mannerism. Romans could be perceived as somewhat intimidating to people who didn't want to change their lifestyle or accept change and any conflict resulted in death. Nazi Germany took that to a whole new level and treated people as cattle before executing them which is so disturbing! 

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As for the Nazis: actually, they wanted to exterminate the Jews, the Communists, the gays, the crippled, the feeble-minded... the list goes on. Oh, and they also wanted to enslave the other peoples, something which the Romans did not do.

I though the Nazi's were Communists, though they did raid the Soviets which wasn't smart. Though I agree, Romans didn't enslave or I don't think torture their rivals, only kill them, though selecting who lives and who dies is disturbing, as though the ages (time) humans continue this activity which demonstrates how Humans are ruthless creatures and must dominate in some sort of power struggle with other people. Will people ever change those ways? It may take another 2000 years before people realise what on Earth were we fighting about since at the current period of time it's all about Wealth, Greed and Power.
   
Quote
As for the Japanese: that was a coalition born out of necessity, not of a shared ideology. My enemy's enemy is my own friend and so on. But the Americans were very well into a war with the Japanese, they just didn't call it that. For a long time before the Pearl Harbor attack the US had imposed an oil (and other goods) embargo on the Japan, which in itself is a casus belli and a clear act of war. They enforced it with their naval forces and were choking Japan slowly but steadily. Thus it came as no surprise when the Japanese lashed forward, really.
   
Oh, also, about the subs you mentioned - I think you're referring to the japanese midget subs, which although crude were a really novel weapon.

Yes they were Midget Subs. I'm unsure how they ever got to Sydney Harbour though cause I believe they had a limited range.
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Offline redbox

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #46 on: 12:05, 01 September 11 »
@Gryzor: yes, the difference is instead of forming a puppet government in collaboration with the Germans, the Brits came back for another fight.  And won.  ;)


@robocfg: did you mean this joke - "The French government have recently received intelligence reports of an imminent attack on France.  They have therefore raised their security level from 'hide' to 'run away'".  :D

Offline robcfg

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #47 on: 13:59, 01 September 11 »
Yep  ;D , or something in the line of:



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French authorities discover an error in their flag's design. "We don't know where the blue and red strips come from".


Offline steve

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #48 on: 14:07, 01 September 11 »

Romans didn't enslave or I don't think torture their rivals, only kill them,


From my limited knowledge, the Romans did keep slaves and some of them were unfortunate enough to be sent to the arena, but for some (the collaborators), in the conquered land, there was the opportunity to do quite well, even maybe gaining Roman citizenship.

Offline MaV

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #49 on: 14:51, 01 September 11 »
As for separating the high command from its people - well, it leads to the classic retort in all the de-nazification trials: "I was just following orders". No, sir.

Funny you should mention that, because the Milgram experiment proves that humans in general are easily susceptible to authority. Before anyone thinks I'm trying to excuse what happened: No, I don't. The experiment gives us insight to what happened, and to the way humans interact. It also tells us that this can happen again.

It's quite common here when having to do with bureaucrats which follow the law to the letter no matter what the cost, to say "Die h├Ątte sich gut gemacht unterm Schicklgruber." - "S/he would have done well under Mr. H." (Schicklgruber being his surname of his father before becoming Mr. Hitler)


@CP/M: No, they did not keep a tally. It is an estimation by historians. And the Romans wrote quite a lot, so you can tell what happened when (Caesars De Bello Gallico for example). It is known how much inhabitants a typical celtic village (oppidum) with its sorrounding farmland can sustain. It is also quite well known, how many villages must have existed in pre-Roman times in Gaul.
Romans very heavy into slavery, the Greek had slaves as well. Roman slaves from Greek were primarily used to educate noble families' children, and they mostly had a good life. Others were banned to work in mines or do other menial tasks (think Spartacus, though such uprisings have been very rare). And all of them could have been killed in the blink of an eye by their masters, as they were seen as objects not indivuals in Roman times. But since they were also seen as an asset, a master thought twice about killing your slave. Slave in Roman times also thought themselves above farmers, so their life was comparably not the worst. As further evidence Roman plays have slaves with Gaulish names. And to top it off, most of the actors themselves were slaves as well. But then the Celts used slaves as well.

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