Author Topic: A discussion on WWII Germany  (Read 15409 times)

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Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #125 on: 05:38, 20 September 11 »
Also, my current spleen is WWI which is where the catastrophes of the 20th (and 21st) centuries took it's start. So when I have time, I prefer to read about this period.
Right, with the first WW it all has been set up (WWI, II and III). And many years before it was already planned and written down, but today the WW I+II winners deny. But it was published, and we can still get it.
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #126 on: 13:06, 20 September 11 »
@TFM: I'm sorry, Stefan, but this is utter nonsense. What's more, claiming "it wasn't us, it was the Nazis" is a colossal insult against the victims of the war -and history itself.

-I opened up a map; I didn't find any Nazistan or Naziland or the like, I only found Germany
-Hitler attained his highest levels of popularity *after* he started on his war path (annexing, invading and the such). What's more, Hitler *never* hid what he had in mind. People voted for him or supported him in full knowledge of what he wanted to accomplish. Nothing came as a surprise so as to say "oh, I voted for him, but I didn't know he was gonna do this or that". You can accuse Hitler of anything you want, except of having a hidden agenda.
-What were the Nazis, if not Germans?
-Although the SS was an outright criminal organization the biggest part of the war (AND the atrocities) were performed by the regular army.
-Behing the lines (or the camps) where the crimes were perpetrated, there was the remainder of the German people, manufacturing arms, munitions, uniforms, running the railroads transferring 'cattle' to the concentration camps etc etc. This was a total effort.

So, please, stop arguing "it wasn't us, it was them". It wasn't a band of bandits, it was a whole nation who did that. True enough, there were MANY who opposed it, and a very few who even resisted, but that doesn't change how things went down -which is, tens of millions of dead (to say nothing about the rest of destruction and misery).

And, of course, if it's a "single person", then why on earth do we need nations and states?
   
@Mav: maybe I didn't understand your argument correctly, if so I apologise. You said

Quote from: Mav
"We didn't know" pertains to the concentration camps, not the front.

So I said, well, they *did* know about the concentration camps.

As far as "re-education" went, this is totally wrong, of course; it was well-known that "re-ducation" meant eradication. So much so that executions in concentration camps (of Germans, no less) were openly advertised. If the people actually believed the reeducation fairy tale I don't think they'd be as scared as you claim they were, after all.

Regarding judging by today's standards: not quite. What I'm arguing was the argument even then. Those are the same arguments that dissidents in Germany were using from 1925 on.

I'm not familiar with Zizek, but even if it's true that 15% tends towards the extreme right (which doesn't seem real, incidentally; in Greece the extreme right commands an incidental 5% and even this is considered very high, for instance) this doesn't mean that these people, motivated by a crisis, by a charismatic leader or pure ideology will stand behind crimes of such magnitude.

Concerning Kershaw: I've read mostly everything he's written (articles, even) and I could quote hundreds of passages where he's really dumbfounded from the levels of barbarity that a highly civilised nation could have descended. The fact that it's difficult to understand from the outside doesn't lessen the outcome of the Germans' actions. Yes, manipulation, violence, motives etc etc etc, but each has an opposite side of the coin: complacence, naïveté, hatred, corruption, fear, dishonor, blind discipline, indifference.

Regarding WWI (replying to TFM now, I know you don't mean something of the sort), the fact that it led to WWII by setting up the stage doesn't justify in the least what happened. Every war has some roots and some beginnings, a reason and a story behind it. It's not unique to WWII. Justifying the most horrific war ever perpetrated because the French and the British demanded extraordinary amounts of cash as war reparations is exceedingly hypocritical and dangerous.

Offline robcfg

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #127 on: 14:10, 20 September 11 »
I don't get what is the point of the discussion now.


That among the germans that fought the war, there was quite a bunch of son of bi***es is obvious. Now, the other countries weren't angels either, even killing more people than the germans, with the only difference that Germany lost the war.


All countries did massacres, and had concentration camps, and killed prisoners and innocent civilians (that includes german civilians, not all were evil nazis), and the USA even dropped 2 atomic bombs...


Today, the USA is fighting a lot of wars only for money and the state of Israel invests lots of money so that the history of the holocaust is never forgotten, but written as they like to.


Why nobody remembers the cossacks? They were slaughtered by the millions, more than the jews, but nobody cares. Again, the germans are used as an excuse for all the evil in the world when today's germans have little to do with it.


On top of that, everybody copied the nazi propaganda machine and it's being used every day by the present day politicians, so if we were talking about good and evil, we missed the point.

Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #128 on: 16:15, 20 September 11 »
Heya mate,

First of all, please calm down a bit :)

Let me take this opportunity to say I hope I haven't offended anyone. Well, I'm pretty sure I have, but this wasn't my intention and I'm really sorry. Let's keep this civilised.

Now, to reply to your post, Rob, take a look at the subject and you'll see what this is about. If you want to talk about Who Is The Baddest Of Them All or something, by all means do open another thread. But this discussion is off-topic here...

Offline robcfg

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #129 on: 17:44, 20 September 11 »
I apologize if I sounded angry, which isn't the case.


I also think that we are being quite civilized on this topic, and that is very good.


What I was trying to say is that I don't know what are we discussing anymore (and I've read the thread again and I still don't understand where the topic has evolved), and that not all the germans were bad and nazis and killers, and not all the allies were the saints they were supposed to be, only that.


If there's any WWIII it will start here most probably  :P  (just kidding...)

Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #130 on: 18:19, 20 September 11 »
Well, serious historical debates are like that. You start at one thing, you pass through another, you end up in yet another :D

Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #131 on: 19:39, 20 September 11 »
@TFM: I'm sorry, Stefan, but this is utter nonsense. What's more, claiming "it wasn't us, it was the Nazis" is a colossal insult against the victims of the war -and history itself.
You should take "Inglorious Bastards" for real, "Operation Walkyre" in contrast is nearly a documentation. Fact it that most of the Germans have been against the Nazis.
 
Why do you insist in "All Germans are evil"?
 
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #132 on: 20:04, 20 September 11 »
You should take "Inglorious Bastards" for real, "Operation Walkyre" in contrast is nearly a documentation.

I found Inglourious Basterds really silly, and I hate Tom Cruise. I don't get my history from Hollywood.

Fact it that most of the Germans have been against the Nazis.

Yeah, sure :D When the Russians were knocking on Berlin's door you couldn't find anyone who ever supported the Nazis even if you handed out fresh meat... Also: even if they didn't (support the Nazis), what did they do about it? Because, in the end, those who were murdered or plundered in their millions did not really care whether Herr Georg or Frau Helga opposed their fellow Germans or not...
 
Why do you insist in "All Germans are evil"?

I like how you even put that in quotes. I dare you find one instance where I claimed that.

PS Even if von Stauffenberg could be considered a hero, the plot was hatched and put in motion not because of the atrocities but in order to save what could be saved, when the war appeared to be lost. So there's that, too.
« Last Edit: 20:06, 20 September 11 by Gryzor »

Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #133 on: 20:48, 20 September 11 »
If there's any WWIII it will start here most probably  :P  (just kidding...)
Yes, i agree  :P But seriously it has already startet: Jugoslavia, Afgahnistan, Iraq, Palestina... and it will not get better... you don't have to wait long for Iran and Venezuela.
Uups, I did a preedit ;-)
 
@Grzor: I really quit this discussion now, it makes no sense to me any longer. You contradict yourself. And honestly some points mentioned before sound to me (and history books) like fiction. I'm sorry, that's my impression. And it's getting too polemic for my taste. I'll focus on CPC in a CPC forum and on WW2 on a WW2 forum.
« Last Edit: 20:54, 20 September 11 by TFM/FS »
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #134 on: 20:50, 20 September 11 »
Well, suit yourself; but before quitting, you should actually prove what you're accusing me of, like where I contradict myself or what history books tell otherwise (I can tell you, I've read dozens upon dozens on the issue, literally. My wife is sick of looking at swastikas in our library). It would be the decent thing to do...

Offline spybro

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #135 on: 20:56, 20 September 11 »

There is a small country, their citicens like to talk the whole day about holocaust, but they do it to cover up their own sins, sins of the present day.



In the present day Israel's military power(the small country as you characterized it) is far greater(about 2 times stronger) than germany's(this is a hard fact)


So would it be more logical if they attacked you instead of talking about it?

Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #136 on: 20:56, 20 September 11 »
Well, suit yourself; but before quitting, you should actually prove what you're accusing me of, like where I contradict myself or what history books tell otherwise (I can tell you, I've read dozens upon dozens on the issue, literally. My wife is sick of looking at swastikas in our library). It would be the decent thing to do...
I'm not accusing you of anything. I just say it makes no sense for me to discuss that any longer. I don't know which kind of books your read, but all the worlds literature knows that never more than 42% of the Germans voted the NSDAP (and they voted them mainly because they promised jobs). I see no reason to discuss facts.
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #137 on: 00:56, 21 September 11 »
Heheheh but you see reason to only discuss less than half of the facts... and you keep ignoring that the NSDAP's popularity soared even after (or because) of the regime's early successes. You conveniently stick to electoral results (44% to be precise), which only tell half of the story.

And, for some reason, you keep focusing on support to the NSDAP, whereas the issue is that a people caused a bloodbath over a whole continent by its collective actions. As I said, those who were dying in some Russian village or of hunger in the Greek cities couldn't care less about what percentages NSDAP got.

Wanna discuss facts? Discuss the entire range of them. It's very easy to lie strictly by saying true things.

Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #138 on: 07:01, 21 September 11 »
It's very easy to lie strictly by saying true things.
Yes, right, and I must admit that you are way superior to me in these things  :D
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #139 on: 09:25, 21 September 11 »
Pffft, this is hopeless... our difference is, I back everything I say up. You keep making nebulous claims and aphorisms...

Offline robcfg

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #140 on: 10:56, 21 September 11 »
Quote
the issue is that a people caused a bloodbath over a whole continent by its collective actions.


The thing is that the bloodbath over the whole continent was caused by the collective actions of all the nations involved. If the other nations just surrendered to Germany, there would be no bloodbath. So, the bloodbath was caused by the desire of Germany (now that we are talking at nation level) to conquer Europe, and by the desire of the rest to oppose this.


For a war to happen there must be two sides, if one of the sides doesn't want to, then there's no war. Of course, it usually happens that you don't want to be under others domination, but you still can surrender.


Thing is you cannot shift all guilt to Germany when everybody participated on this.

Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #141 on: 11:03, 21 September 11 »
Er... I want to assume that this was a joke, putting the blame on the peoples for resisting, but I'm really disturbed because you appear to be serious.

If indeed you are serious then I'm at a loss, because we'd really need to go back to the very basics of what freedom, morality and aggression means.

And, btw, the Germans also slaughtered peoples who *didn't* resist, or long after the war had ended and occupation had settled in. So even if you are of the opinion that I can come into your house and it'll be your fault if I kill you, there's still much blame to be put on the Germans.

Good luck finding any court on earth (even in Nazi Germany) that will excuse a perpetrator because his victim reacted. :6

Offline robcfg

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #142 on: 14:02, 21 September 11 »
So the conclusion of this discussion is that Germany is evil?


Ok, maybe during WWII it was so (though not all the germans agreed on this, and many had to go to war or be shot in place). But, all the other nations that fought the war did equally evil things (sometimes worse), and again the difference is we only think that Germany was the bad one because it lost the war.


Note: I'm not mad at anyone participating in this discussion and I'll never be (as far as the discussion goes). Just so that everyone knows  ;D

Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #143 on: 18:11, 21 September 11 »
So the conclusion of this discussion is that Germany is evil?

No, actually she was an Angel in disguise; I have it on good authority that people just misunderstood what was happening.


Quote
Ok, maybe during WWII it was so (though not all the germans agreed on this, and many had to go to war or be shot in place). But, all the other nations that fought the war did equally evil things (sometimes worse), and again the difference is we only think that Germany was the bad one because it lost the war.

These points have been discussed in the thread over and over again...


Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #144 on: 21:43, 21 September 11 »
The thing is that the bloodbath over the whole continent was caused by the collective actions of all the nations involved. If the other nations just surrendered to Germany, there would be no bloodbath. So, the bloodbath was caused by the desire of Germany (now that we are talking at nation level) to conquer Europe, and by the desire of the rest to oppose this.

Or just kill the damn leader of the pack. Which means kill Hitler. Well, the Germans tried about 30 times, and Hitler seemed to be protected by some diabolic forces. If you take a look at Stauffenbergs assault, how could Hitler survive without a scratch?? - that's beyond all chances.
 
So why to nations never kill the leader of the "enemy" nation. Well, because in reality there are no "peoples"  fighting each other. In reality the international banks are fighting all the people. But nobody want's to see that.

Thing is you cannot shift all guilt to Germany when everybody participated on this.
Exactly, that's what I try to explain since ages :-)
 
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #145 on: 21:54, 21 September 11 »
Amazing, just amazing. So now you claim it was not the Germans, it was not even Hitler, it was the Devil - or even the international banks (wtf, this is getting so surreal it's hard to argue. Idiotic, even).

Banks? I didn't see any banker shooting civilians en masse with the sardine method, or someone with a collar and cigar raising he Swastika on the Acropolis.

As for the argument about IT BEING THE FAULT OF THE PEOPLES THAT RESISTED (I do wonder how ridiculous it can get...) you do realize that by this you actually justify the Allies' atrocities you accused them of, right?

My god, remind me to claim, if I ever see you and you try to resist while I'm stealing your wallet*, it will be your fault I'll cut your neck, ok?

*to say something really light, instead of, oh, I don't know, burning your house down, killing your wife or raping your daughter.
« Last Edit: 21:56, 21 September 11 by Gryzor »

Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #146 on: 22:01, 21 September 11 »
Gryzor, are you not interrested in a discussion? Are you just inerrested in being right? Is it that?
And you are (take it as a compliment!) a master in turning around a word in the mouth of somebody else. So for the last time let me recapitulate one of my posts just for you (You see, you have all my attention):
 
No, I don't believe in demons, and no, I didn't watch too much Supernatural. But if you know history as well as you always claim, then you know for sure that there was no chance to survive for Hitler when Stauffenberg blasted that bomb. But he did survive without any injuries, and this IS against all chances!!! If you still disagree, then I better talk to a brick!
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Offline robcfg

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #147 on: 02:10, 22 September 11 »
Ok guys, calm down.


I agree with Gryzor in that I've been taking the logic a bit too far, but I also think 10 pages of discussion is getting a bit too far too  ;D


We seem to agree in that in a war nobody's a saint and that winners tell the history of it in a way to make the other side appear evil to the world (which is true, nazis were evil, as anybody in a war, we have discussed that a couple of times).


So, just to focus on the important things, what's remaining to discuss is why the war started, and there I agree with TFM in that in the end, is always wealth (either money, land, resources...) what triggers the conflicts.


That, or talking politics on the CPCWiki, hehehehe  ;)

Offline TFM

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #148 on: 06:50, 13 February 12 »
Most people believe the history written by the winners. And maybe todays Germans believe these lies the most. But some are honest and curageous enough to tell the truth as can be seen here:

Zweiter Weltkrieg - Was Deutsche nicht wissen sollen!

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Offline ivarf

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Re: A discussion on WWII Germany
« Reply #149 on: 19:39, 16 May 12 »
Food for thought? Why have the "best" aryans like people of Scaninavia and the "second best aryans" (Germans)  achieved better than the rest of the world economically after the WW2? Even the japs have done very well.