Author Topic: Athens burning...  (Read 4390 times)

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Offline Gryzor

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Athens burning...
« on: 22:31, 12 February 12 »
Sorry for the off-topic.


As our honorable MPs are gathering to vote for what will be the destruction of the country, several buildings and stores are burning downtown.


A rotten affair.

[EDIT] 17 fires reported up to now; currently the building next to the IMF is going up in flames. A while earlier, and as the riots were in full force, our honorable MPs were sitting in the parliament's cafeteria watching a football game.
« Last Edit: 22:43, 12 February 12 by Gryzor »

Offline spybro

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #1 on: 23:17, 12 February 12 »
im pissed off
really pissed off
cause we have 300 dickheads in the parl
and also couple of thousand so called anarchists(with rich daddies) that burning down ath(10-20 buildings)


« Last Edit: 23:22, 12 February 12 by spybro »

Offline TFM

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #2 on: 07:08, 13 February 12 »
So dear people of Greece: Stop blaming others, take action in your own hands.
 
The same will happen in all(!) other European countries sooner or later.
(Except people feel well as slaves of the banks).
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #3 on: 19:50, 13 February 12 »
Here's the album with the photos I took this morning from downtown. Even now my throat is sore because of the tear gas, despite the fact that it rained this morning and so some of it was cleared...


https://picasaweb.google.com/112430638955911471635/Athens120213Riots?authkey=Gv1sRgCMnqnLvG2ICcaA


PS TF/M, I think people know exactly who to blame... perhaps for the first time, actually!

Offline TFM

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #4 on: 22:05, 13 February 12 »
Oh man, that's quite mean. I just hope that there is a bunch of honest guys left (in politics) to omit the worst.

At least the system is quite obvious now: Take the money from the retired and the poor, and give it to the banks, Meanwhile the Germans are the 'official' cause of the problems. Just put a swastica on Merkel, put that picture in the newspaper, and horay we found the guilty person. Sadly (like in all contries) way too much people believe that crap.
Whenever they take another piece of freedom away they got some special stupit shit in the newspapers and people only look at that. I just hope that a broader mass now will wake up (worldwide).

Greece had the first democracy, now they can show once more what they can do - or fail. I just hope the best.
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Offline trocoloco

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #5 on: 23:24, 13 February 12 »
We all better realise that this is what is gonna happen all over europe sooner or later.  Politics of ANY european country dont give a crap about "their people", they just wont care at all or do anything whatsoever.

I'm with you greeks,  something must be done, no one should be abused like that and destroy a country and their people just for the sake of the flippin euro coin or what have you and converting everyone into slaves.

I preffer a peaceful way to solve the problems (as most of human beings) but if its ignored or simply answered with brute police force, then u have to take a stand and do whatever it takes to reverse the situation. Politics are to serve the people and not the way around.



The message in the picture can be translated as: "Power". When we understand that it is like so, and not the way around, then we got the glimpse of solution to the problem

Offline beaker

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #6 on: 03:03, 14 February 12 »
Yeah, just bite the bullet and scrap the Euro; it's a flawed and failed experiment.
 
Being English born and raised during the time of the Iron Lady, God Bless her, I've been indoctrinated with a healthy dose of Euroscepticism and we’ve been saying for decades the only way the Euro would ever work in the long term is by relinquishing all Sovereign power to Germany. Having a Central Bank setting interest rates means smaller economies like Greece and Ireland have no means of devaluing their currency to make themselves more competitive so in a recession they would be hardest hit, and the lack of Centralised control by allowing each country to set its own budget means the whole system is open to abuse… Unless you have a fully integrated European economy rather than by country and a centralised Government like in the US I can't see it ever working...

Offline steve

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #7 on: 04:11, 14 February 12 »
The problem is imported cheap goods, let every country make 75% of their requirements and there will be enough jobs for everyone. Protectionism is what every politician should be implementing but they are only interested in their own wealth, not the people they are elected to represent.

Offline steve

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #8 on: 04:20, 14 February 12 »
It used to be that most people worked in agriculture, then with the industrial revolution they went into factories and farms began to mechanise, now only 4% of people in Britain work in agriculture.
The same thing is happening in industry, there aren't enough McDonalds to employ all the people thrown out of work to increase profits for the shareholders, when no one can buy food for their families society will fall apart, the politicians know this which is why everyones Rights are being taken from them in the name of " the fight against terror".
In America it is a terrorist act to have more than 7 days food in your house.

Offline TFM

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #9 on: 06:26, 14 February 12 »
Buddy, if we wouldn't have imported crap from China then we would realize how high the inflation has gone and how poor we are in reality!
 
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Offline steve

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #10 on: 08:50, 14 February 12 »
If we had jobs we could afford to pay higher prices, if goods were designed to last longer they would be worth the slightly higher price.
In the 20's light bulbs were designed and advertised to last for 2500 hours, then all the light bulb manufacturers got together and decided that light bulbs would be made to last only 1000 hours so they could make more profit.
Better products, more employment, less waste, environmentally friendly, only greedy industrialists could argue with that.

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #11 on: 12:16, 14 February 12 »
@TF/M: It's not Merkel herself, or Germans as a people towards whom angry is directed to. Merkel is the head of Germany and Germany is the powerhouse of Europe, therefore it follows that Merkel is the ultimate defender of the interests of the few.

As for the German people, when you're fed front pages moaning about how Greeks will be given €150bn[nb] of course, these billions, like the sums before that, are merely loans, not giveaways; what's more, not a dime of it will enter the economy - rather they'll go towards the payment of previous loans (which nobody knows where they went apart from being spent on bribe-related contracts with German businesses and German weapons), thus furthering the vicious circle. In the end, it's all figures on excel sheets; no money exchanges hands, it's just entries in an accounting system... [/nb] just for sitting on the beach drinking ouzo and frappe' you're bound to be angry and against Greece. However, what I've been saying for the last 15 or so years is that media propaganda is not an excuse any more. It's very easy to find the truth - the sources are everywhere and you can double-check for yourself what is true and what is not. People should use their mind, not a Focus cover to decide.
   
@trocoloco: great poster. I'll share it... As for politicians not caring about their people, this is of course true but even truer in the framework of the EU. Remember that the EU is the first instance in history, AFAIK, where the *state* has tried to impose a constitution upon its people. It can't get any fishier thant that, really, and of course a cursory look at it (how much space is spent on finance and trade stuff, and how little on human rights) reveals why. As for a peaceful way, a slogan I read on a wall this very morning: Against violence, yes; against being non-violent, no.

@Beaker: it's funny; a few weeks ago I came upon (can't remember where...) a pamphlet from British Euro-propagandists from the early eighties (or it may have been seventies). It said, roughly, nothing will change! We'll be sovereign! We'll lose none of our power! Stuff like that. Very funny and tragic.  Thatcher, of course, would have been all for Europe if it meant British governance - her problem was not with the idea of a wide economic zone but rather than control in that zone would lie with the Germans and not the Brits - but I'm all for the euroscepticism that has prevailed in the UK. And of course it's not only a monetary issue (devaluations and all) but also the fact that different economies in different points of the economic cycle have different needs. Austerity psychosis doesn't work for everyone (heck, it hasn't worked for Germany!) and it's madness to say that in a bankrupt state like Greece, in deep recession, the way out is to get even more in it. Oh, btw, here's an interesting article
here's an interesting article by krugman on the surplus religion.
   
@Steve: I tend to agree with protectionism. Of course protectionism will inhibit quick progress (or "progress") but it will lead to more "real" progress. What's happening right now is that in the name of cheap gadgets and everything we're destroying local production bases and we're moving over the precipice. I'd be happy to live with less stuff. But in the Eurozone protectionism is, of course, off the agenda, even though all economists agree that for nascent industries or troubled economies protectionism is not only a solution but a must. But heck - look at the Common Agricultural Policy - it has destroyed agricalture in Greece... People getting paid to destroy their crops (and now these same people are accused of being paid to sit on their arses) and now we have to import tomatoes from... Belgium, for god's sake! Greece, importing fruit and vegetables from the North! More jobs, more expensive stuff, less consuming. I'm all for it.

PS Our politicians are sold to such a degree that the law that was voted last Sunday contained many instances where figures were left out, replaced by [XX] and [ZZ]... This says it all, really, how much they don't care to sign a blank check for the selling of a country...
PS2 on the effectiveness of austerity: before Greece asked for the "help" of the IMF, the EU and the ECT, its debt was some 120% of the GDP. After two years of cruel financial losses, loss of sovereignty and abolition of democracy, the debt stands at... 150%. I just read that Merkel said that if all goes well (??) we'll be back in the markets (another lie - we never left the markets) in 2020 (is she Nostradamus?) with a debt of... 120%.Go figure.
« Last Edit: 12:47, 14 February 12 by Gryzor »

Offline trocoloco

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #12 on: 14:50, 14 February 12 »
   
@trocoloco: great poster. I'll share it... As for politicians not caring about their people, this is of course true but even truer in the framework of the EU. Remember that the EU is the first instance in history, AFAIK, where the *state* has tried to impose a constitution upon its people. It can't get any fishier thant that, really, and of course a cursory look at it (how much space is spent on finance and trade stuff, and how little on human rights) reveals why. As for a peaceful way, a slogan I read on a wall this very morning: Against violence, yes; against being non-violent, no.

I agree and I'm with you 100%

Offline beaker

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #13 on: 19:09, 14 February 12 »
Hey Gryzor,

You put it a lot better than I could - the one size fits all economy can't work.

I am not sure I fully agree that Thatcher would have been all for Europe if it meant British Governance but I could be wrong. Obviously at that time in history the wars against Germany would still be within living memory so that was one reason. From what I understand/remember back in the 70’s when Thatcher came to power, Labour had left the UK economy in a dire situation with unemployment at a postwar high of 1.5m which sparked the winter of discontent; the then powerful Trade Unions were constantly picketing and the IRA bombings were probably at their peak, so I don’t think the UK would be in any position to govern Europe. Also by 1982 it was likely that the Tory Government would have lost the election but the Falklands War happened and bought her another couple of terms in power. I also think that the feeling was that as soon as you start conceding power to another authority whether it’s to a Central Bank or whatever, you no longer have a strong or effective Government as can be seen now in Ireland with the referendum a few years back where we basically had to keep taking the referendum until we got the right answer. In terms of the Europe at that time, I think it probably sounded like a good idea, it would have allowed the UK at the time to trade and compete in a common marketplace without protectionism and help its beleaguered economy, especially as at the time the UK still had a manufacturing industry of sorts (the sorts being British Leyland crap cars  :D ).

Obviously Nazi Germany isn’t a subject to bring up most of the time but they did do one thing right at a time when Germany had crushing reparations. To quote Ellen Brown:
“Hitler and the National Socialists, who came to power in 1933, thwarted the international banking cartel by issuing their own money. In this they took their cue from Abraham Lincoln, who funded the American Civil War with government-issued paper money called "Greenbacks." Hitler began his national credit program by devising a plan of public works. Projects earmarked for funding included flood control, repair of public buildings and private residences, and construction of new buildings, roads, bridges, canals, and port facilities. The projected cost of the various programs was fixed at one billion units of the national currency. One billion non-inflationary bills of exchange, called Labor Treasury Certificates, were then issued against this cost. Millions of people were put to work on these projects, and the workers were paid with the Treasury Certificates. This government-issued money wasn't backed by gold, but it was backed by something of real value. It was essentially a receipt for labor and materials delivered to the government. Hitler said, "for every mark that was issued we required the equivalent of a mark's worth of work done or goods produced." The workers then spent the Certificates on other goods and services, creating more jobs for more people.

Within two years, the unemployment problem had been solved and the country was back on its feet. It had a solid, stable currency, no debt, and no inflation, at a time when millions of people in the United States and other Western countries were still out of work and living on welfare.”

It leads me to wonder why more countries aren’t building/repairing their infrastructure at this time which would reduce unemployment and potentially lead to investment from abroad in the future as they’d be able to take advantage of the improved infrastructure?

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #14 on: 20:13, 14 February 12 »
 Actually, when Thatcher took over unemployment was under 1m (I think). T's deflationary policy caused it to skyrocket to over 3.5m (according to other estimates, since she also changed the unemployment criteria, it reached 5m). Industrial output fell by 30% or so. By the time she left office, inflation stood at the same levels as in 1979. Here:
[attachimg=1]


During her terms there were, of course, ups in the economy. But from an economist's point of view it is debatable how much of it was attributed to her actions and how much was part of the natural economic cycle. Indeed, it's proven that some of her acts actually inhibited further growth.


Bringing inflation down is pretty easy to do. The issue is, how you do it and what else your acts affect. The first thing to be affected, of course, is employment rate since simply speaking, employment !=inflation. One goes up, the other goes down. Thatcher was a monetarist, pretty much like today's leading politicians. That meant that she cared about (some) figures but ignored the people. Its not only the actual numbers of the economy that took a downturn, but also the quality of life, overall happiness and societal values. But then again she's well known for having uttered, "there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families."


Yes, it is true that Thatcher laid the basis for a more 'tranquil' economy. But what does this mean? She did that at the expense of the unions and the social state... School milk, anyone?


To get back on track, what I mused about Thatcher was not about the UK's ability to rule over Europe. What I meant was that the problem was not with the principle of one country ruling Europe, but which country that would be. It happened to be Germany, so Europe was a bad thing.


As for Hitler's Germany; I have read extensively on the subject, both because I love the period and because of my interest in economics. It appears that although Hitler did follow some Keynsian principles he is overcredited with the stabilisation of German economy. Stabilisation had started well before his time and he merely continued with (some of) the programmes he found. What's more, some statistical trickery helps shove problems under the carpet - for instance, unemployment figures can be lowered when you conscript millions, or when you take young people out of the market and into Youth organisations, or by conscripting doctorates to dig roads and trenches.

/offtopic
Your last question is very valid; infrastructure, of course, is an expansionary policy, and this is what politicians don't see - that you can only create money by spending money...
« Last Edit: 20:33, 14 February 12 by Gryzor »

Offline TFM

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #15 on: 21:46, 14 February 12 »
If we had jobs we could afford to pay higher prices, if goods were designed to last longer they would be worth the slightly higher price.
In the 20's light bulbs were designed and advertised to last for 2500 hours, then all the light bulb manufacturers got together and decided that light bulbs would be made to last only 1000 hours so they could make more profit.
Better products, more employment, less waste, environmentally friendly, only greedy industrialists could argue with that.

Right, a neon lamp could burn for 80 years!!! BTW... in atomic submarines they have daylight neon lamps which have a 50 year guarantee. Well, they are quite expensive, but the technique is not different from a normal neon lamp with defined short lifespan.
I like old machinery of around 1920, it's still running and it will run forever. As the CPC runs forever.
 
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Offline steve

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #16 on: 00:09, 15 February 12 »
There is a video on youtube of a lightbulb that has been working for a century, it's even older now.

Offline beaker

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #17 on: 00:21, 15 February 12 »
Hectic, you can't argue with the facts. I assume most of the unemployment arose because of the shift to a service-based economy with the decline in North Sea Oil and the closure of the coal mines (most of which were running at a loss) and the effects on the businesses associated with those industries that culminated in the devastation of whole communities? I guess living in the Home Counties outside London I missed most of that at the time.  :-X

In regards to building up the infrastructure of the country it seems like common sense to me. Rather than plough money into banks as they did in the UK, if the public sector is retracting why doesn’t the Government create jobs, pay these people a wage which they will save in the banks. The work will consume resources which will create jobs and the people will go out and want to spend their wage that will in turn create more jobs and introduce liquidity back into the economy; or have I missed the point?

 

Offline andycadley

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #18 on: 01:10, 15 February 12 »
In regards to building up the infrastructure of the country it seems like common sense to me. Rather than plough money into banks as they did in the UK, if the public sector is retracting why doesn’t the Government create jobs, pay these people a wage which they will save in the banks. The work will consume resources which will create jobs and the people will go out and want to spend their wage that will in turn create more jobs and introduce liquidity back into the economy; or have I missed the point?
The trouble is the governments just don't have any money, so  has to borrow more. If you use that borrowed money to plough into the bank, you have an asset which you can sell on later to repay the debt. If you plough it into 'fake' jobs just to push unemployment down, you then have to find another way to pay back the debt, which means higher taxation that risks putting real businesses into financial difficultly, thus losing 'real' jobs or heavily cutting public services, which almost inevitably has to be done through cutting staff, thus shooting yourself quite neatly in the foot.
The real issue is that for far too long people and governments have been borrowing way beyond their means to live more lavishly than could really be justified and ultimately it had to come to a head at some point when the levels of borrowing reached an utterly unsustainable point. The Euro has compounded that by pretty much removing every plausible measure that an individual country could reasonably take to try and minimize the damage caused.

Offline TFM

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #19 on: 21:18, 15 February 12 »
Yeah, that's what they want us to believe!  :laugh:
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Offline TFM

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #20 on: 02:06, 16 February 12 »
I just heart in the news that Greece added one Billion Euros to the Military budget. So the military budget has doubled.
 
Now is there any explanation for that?
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Offline Gryzor

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #21 on: 11:22, 16 February 12 »
@beaker: indeed, there were some good reasons for the rise in unemployment; but then again, there always are, economies are never perfect and there's no lack of crises... Yet, sometimes (not saying this was the case here since I don't know all the facts) it's better *not* to shut down public companies that produce losses; the result of abrupt action is unemployment which is surely worse and really deflates the economy and results in bigger losses.. A proper economy/society should try and find/create new jobs before firing those people...

Ploughing money into the banking system does have a logic behind it; without that money banks collapse and economy collapses as a result. But this has introduced unbelievable skewing into how the system works. Moral hazard has become a tremendous liability, so much so that it'd be better to let the banks fail and then build up from scratch. Otherwise the vicious circle continues and we'll continue dropping money into the banking black hole. Imagine if they just gave that kind of money that they give to the banks, to the peoples! It's really unbelievable.

@Andy: theoretically yes, you are buying banking assets, though of course this is not always the case; there are many cases where banks are just given free money to get them out of trouble. In other cases, saved banks are resold for peanuts, thus furthering the damage and returning power and money to the bankers. What's more, why keep doing that instead of just building a healthy public banking sector? I don't think anyone from my government will be coming to save my enterprise if it fails.

I forgot to write something when I was writing about the UK; Germany is not in a good shape, despite what they want us to believe. Yes, statistical trickery has brought down unemployment rates. But this was achieved with part-time jobs, cheap jobs at the lowest end of the spectrum (highest ration in Europe AFAIK) and wages that go as low as €0.55/hr (this is not a typo). If this is success, then I badly want to fail.

@TFM: where did you read that? Actually, they're cutting some €700-750m from the already cut-down budget; the armed forces are running out of fuel and spare parts to an unbelievable degree...
« Last Edit: 11:29, 16 February 12 by Gryzor »

Offline deepfb

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #22 on: 12:51, 16 February 12 »

I have tried not to reply here, since I'm not an active user in the main Amstrad forums and I don't like those lurkers who only post in off topic threads, but... I can't resist when you start speaking about Thatcher :-)

Quote
Yes, it is true that Thatcher laid the basis for a more 'tranquil' economy. But what does this mean? She did that at the expense of the unions and the social state... School milk, anyone?

...And to the expense of British industrial capitalists. During the 20th Century, that segment of capital have seen their interests passed over by those of the financial capitalists at the City. Thatcher's 'Revolution' was the final coup-de-grâce to British industry, which may have benefited from a full and wholehearted integration into EU, and which relied on its productive links with big state-owned corporations such BAe, BT, BP, British Gas, British Leyland or the Railways. Privatization processes, aimed to recover and strength back private profits of investors (i.e., the financial capitalists, *who where paying the Conservative Party campaigns*), ended up blowing manufacturing activites off the UK.

Were state owned enterprises (SOEs) running at a loss? Definitely not. Much of them were profitable, and some of them were intervened just before denationalization, to prove that they could be managed in a *very* profitable way. That meant relocating part of the production outside the country, but also involved legislative changes to terminate with closed-shop agreements and any kind of benefits and the power in negotiation the workers at SOEs had. This leaded to a reduction in wages and an increase in benefits, which was appropiated by new owners -the financial capitalists. Also, the regulation was changed so the privatized utilities could rise their prices and be run at a big success -no longer serving any social interest.

Thatcher opted to sacrifice British workers and British industry for the greed of the City, which produced a shift to a service-based economy and increasing wealth and income inequality.


Regarding the situation at Greece, it's amazing to hear here, in Spain, how people who has voted for conservative parties -not anarchists or leftist activists- sympathizes with greek rioters. "It's going to be the same here" -they say, and... I can't help but say that I hope so, too :-P
« Last Edit: 12:58, 16 February 12 by deepfb »

Offline TFM

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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #23 on: 19:20, 16 February 12 »
Ok, Gryzor. You did proove my suspection right. I can't trust mainstream media - not even a bit. I just watched official German news in the live-stream in the net. And they said there is no cut down for militry expenses, in contrast they would nearly double the budget. I got not idea why they are telling that??? Well, I got no good news from my other souces either. Thanks' for letting me know.
 
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Re: Athens burning...
« Reply #24 on: 20:22, 16 February 12 »
@TFM/FS

it's a fact that soible wants us out
so why do you feel amazed that German and german related news agencies spread rumors?

have you ever heard from those news agencies
about the money siemens owes to the hellenic state
or about the bending submarines that german people/companies manufactured and denying to compencate their value
Guess not?!


do you know what else is a fact?
If we go down others will follow
and its not gonna be nice for anyone
Not even germany