Brexit. UK Politics.

[1024MAK]

As long as the debate is reasonable, I see no harm in it.

Or should I have said, because it's fun tempting others to get excited and then see them overreact and get themselves into trouble 

Anyway, the vote is in, be it good or bad for the UK or indeed Europe.

Mark

[SRS]

ME thinks this is a good time to switch forum language to the most spoken one in EU.

Ab sofort Deutsch 

[Gryzor]

Heheh I liked this last one


I don't see much need to lock the thread, as long -of course- as people behave. even then I may just delete the relevan posts...

[MacDeath]

Well well well... I hate that media would tell "they leave europe" (continent, historical group of cultures, greek legend)... they juste leave "european union" [I am editing this because it is completely out of context, as I said, avoid that kind of judgment/words in here. It is not the place and not respectful either]

As if Swisstzerland and Norway were in Asia and not europe... lol...

ME thinks this is a good time to switch forum language to the most spoken one in EU.

Polish ?

[SOS]

ME thinks this is a good time to switch forum language to the most spoken one in EU.

Ab sofort Deutsch 

Ich bin dafür! 

[robcfg]

Wir wollen unsere alter Kaiser Wilhelm wieder haben! 


Mein Oma used to sing that as a joke, hehe!

[MaV]

Nope, not Polish. Poland has rougly 40 million while Germany has around 80 million inhabitants, plus Austria speaks German that makes another 8 million.

France with 66 million would be at a good second place. But as the French forum here suggests most prefer their clandestine French forums. I might just learn a bit more French now ...

And let's not forget Italy (60 million) and Spain (~ 47 million).

So:
German
French
Italian
Spanish
Polish
...
...

[TFM]

Ich bin dafür! 

Aber klar doch! Los, los, umstellen! 

[Audronic]

Hmmmm


Whats the EU ??


Ray

[1024MAK]

Hmmmm

Whats the EU ??

Ray

Electromagnetic Uncoupling?

[robcfg]

Ray, that would be the European Union, now not so united...

[Gryzor]

As I said before, I have no clear opinion (and hence, I wouldn't call it an opinion) on whether an exit or a stay in the EU would be better for the UK, at least in the short and medium term.


However I was surprised by the arguments used and the general climate around the whole thing. I thought the Brits were calmer and cooler than that. And the whole thing was so skewed that, if you listened to each side you would think that 52% of the Brits are xenophobic, old people, while the other 48% are wealthy pricks and/or traitors. Like the 52% voted for Farage and the other 48% voted to give all the money to the City through the ECT or something while they go out to hunt foxes.


Such polarisation is not unusual, of course (and unfortunately so). However I was even more surprised by the stance of the Remain supporters after the results came out. It's like they are *glad* bad things are happening, and they keep spewing interpretations of democracy like 'older people should not vote' (because that's what the argument about the age scaling amounts to). What's more, perfectly sane and knowledgeable people fell into a pattern where they would, yesterday, lament about things going wrong but whistling indifferently when they rebounded; spread rumours like wildfire but refuse to retract when proved wrong. And the silliest I've seen, going on and on about how the UK became poor because the GBP fell, as if that's how the size of an economy is measured, every minute or every single day, or as if nominal measures like being "the x largest economy in the world" means anything (hint: in GDP/capita and PPP-adjusted lists put the UK around #25 I think, and even that measure is problematic).


Again, as a phenomenon it's not new, of course, and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't mention that the same doesn't happen in my country. But I *was* expecting something better this time around, especially from people I know and respect and consider serious and informed.


I'd say: calm down, people. The sun is not going to go black. Yes, there will be problems, but there will also be opportunities. Do your best to make the most of them. After all, whether the coming future works out or not has nothing to do with being in the EU or not, but everything to do with how those who govern use their power and in what ends. You are still a powerful country, so it's up to you to make it work either way.[nb]And when the EU truly collapses, you can stay safe, pointing fingers at us and drinking tea under your cloudy weather[/nb]

[Dr Tiger Ninestein]

As I said before, I have no clear opinion (and hence, I wouldn't call it an opinion) on whether an exit or a stay in the EU would be better for the UK, at least in the short and medium term.


However I was surprised by the arguments used and the general climate around the whole thing. I thought the Brits were calmer and cooler than that. And the whole thing was so skewed that, if you listened to each side you would think that 52% of the Brits are xenophobic, old people, while the other 48% are wealthy pricks and/or traitors. Like the 52% voted for Farange and the other 48% voted to give all the money to the City through the ECT or something while they go out to hunt foxes.


Such polarisation is not unusual, of course (and unfortunately so). However I was even more surprised by the stance of the Remain supporters after the results came out. It's like they are *glad* bad things are happening, and they keep spewing interpretations of democracy like 'older people should not vote' (because that's what the argument about the age scaling amounts to). What's more, perfectly sane and knowledgeable people fell into a pattern where they would, yesterday, lament about things going wrong but whistling indifferently when they rebounded; spread rumours like wildfire but refuse to retract when proved wrong. And the silliest I've seen, going on and on about how the UK became poor because the GBP fell, as if that's how the size of an economy is measured, every minute or every single day, or as if nominal measures like being "the x largest economy in the world" means anything (hint: in GDP/capita and PPP-adjusted lists put the UK around #25 I think, and even that measure is problematic).


Again, as a phenomenon it's not new, of course, and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't mention that the same doesn't happen in my country. But I *was* expecting something better this time around, especially from people I know and respect and consider serious and informed.


I'd say: calm down, people. The sun is not going to go black. Yes, there will be problems, but there will also be opportunities. Do your best to make the most of them. After all, whether the coming future works out or not has nothing to do with being in the EU or not, but everything to do with how those who govern use their power and in what ends. You are still a powerful country, so it's up to you to make it work either way.[nb]And when the EU truly collapses, you can stay safe, pointing fingers at us and drinking tea under your cloudy weather[/nb]

Very well said.

[EgoTrip]

@Gryzor now your beginning to see the UK's true colours. This is normal behaviour.

There are cunts on both sides of the fence. The only reason I voted leave was because I believe in the principles of democracy and accountability, which there is little of in EU. Sure there are racists and xenophobes who voted leave, just as there are who voted remain.

I despise Farage and what he stands for. I am all for integration, but not the cost of freedoms and democracy. Immigration is a great thing when done right and not abused. It has greatly enriched British culture, but at the same time the abuse of it (by both "bad" immigrants, and those who exploit immigrants for profit) is destroying us.

Remain shot itself in the foot and could have comfortably won if they used intelligence, honesty and integrity. Not that leave were much better, but they were the lesser of the evils. It speaks volumes for the campaigners, the EU, and the UK people how the entire thing went. The negativity and bullying, and focus on money like its all that matters, which is the Tory way, alienated people and I can bet many voted to leave purely because of the tactics used, as a protest.

Then the Tory cunts who triggered all this running off like cowards when the going got tough was the icing on the cake. But at least that slimey piece of shit Cameron is going. I'm scared of Boris though.

[Audronic]

@robcfg


Sorry it was meant to be a Joke, as we don't have access to it down here (Australia).
Just trying to Lighten up the discussion.


Ray

[Gryzor]

Good points there, although do try to keep bad words at a minimum

Remain shot itself in the foot and could have comfortably won if they used intelligence, honesty and integrity. Not that leave were much better,

Yeah, that was a fun part of the campaigning for someone like me, standing on the outside. I mean, I knew enough to judge some of the faces and bigotry on the Leave campaign side, but then I was looking at comments from Remain-ers about them and I was thinking, come on! Are you fucking kidding me? Have you looked at "your" guys lately?

I'm scared of Boris though.

For various reasons (and again, NOT being very familiar) I don't think you should - as if he's any worse than, say, Cameron (we're just used to serious-looking politicians) or as if, when and if he gets in power, he'll be able to continue being that crazy...


Oh, speaking of crazy, a couple of more silly examples of what I heard yesterday:


-BoE ready to support the markets with GBPxxx billions: "that's xxxx thousand pounds for each of us!" - as if suddenly BoE decided to just hand over those billions to someone. Not how things work, man, not how things work.
-stock exchange goes down? "a huge chunk of our wealth just went into flames!". Dear gods.

[Gryzor]

@robcfg
Sorry it was meant to be a Joke, as we don't have access to it down here (Australia).
Just trying to Lighten up the discussion.

You got the Eurovision, that's more than enough, mate.

[Audronic]

@Gryzor


Hmmmm Yes !
It's probable a good example.


Ray

[dragon]

 


You got the Eurovision, that's more than enough, mate.

Speaking about that(eurovison). U.k permanecy should not be affected by the brexit. Because it not depend from ue. The only way u.k can abandon eurovision is the bbc drop the uer. So ironically u.k continue mainteing the festival with spain,germany,france and italy.

In the other hand have curiosty about the future of sony computer entertaiment europe, that distributed to all europe from london. Where is located playstation network to.

[Gryzor]

Indeed, many organisations/events/whatever won't be affected because they're not part of the EU but rather of other European organisations/etc. Other organisations, of course, will have to relocate probably - all those EU organisations (like EMA - the European Medicine Association- I was discussing yesterday) whose seat is in the UK would have to go somewhere else, most likely.


As for SCEE, well, what would be the issue? They'd do it from Holland or Spain, probably (or, who knows, even Greece) where they have major logistics infrastructure...

[andycadley]

As I said before, I have no clear opinion (and hence, I wouldn't call it an opinion) on whether an exit or a stay in the EU would be better for the UK, at least in the short and medium term.


However I was surprised by the arguments used and the general climate around the whole thing. I thought the Brits were calmer and cooler than that. And the whole thing was so skewed that, if you listened to each side you would think that 52% of the Brits are xenophobic, old people, while the other 48% are wealthy pricks and/or traitors. Like the 52% voted for Farage and the other 48% voted to give all the money to the City through the ECT or something while they go out to hunt foxes.


Such polarisation is not unusual, of course (and unfortunately so). However I was even more surprised by the stance of the Remain supporters after the results came out. It's like they are *glad* bad things are happening, and they keep spewing interpretations of democracy like 'older people should not vote' (because that's what the argument about the age scaling amounts to). What's more, perfectly sane and knowledgeable people fell into a pattern where they would, yesterday, lament about things going wrong but whistling indifferently when they rebounded; spread rumours like wildfire but refuse to retract when proved wrong. And the silliest I've seen, going on and on about how the UK became poor because the GBP fell, as if that's how the size of an economy is measured, every minute or every single day, or as if nominal measures like being "the x largest economy in the world" means anything (hint: in GDP/capita and PPP-adjusted lists put the UK around #25 I think, and even that measure is problematic).


Again, as a phenomenon it's not new, of course, and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't mention that the same doesn't happen in my country. But I *was* expecting something better this time around, especially from people I know and respect and consider serious and informed.


I'd say: calm down, people. The sun is not going to go black. Yes, there will be problems, but there will also be opportunities. Do your best to make the most of them. After all, whether the coming future works out or not has nothing to do with being in the EU or not, but everything to do with how those who govern use their power and in what ends. You are still a powerful country, so it's up to you to make it work either way.[nb]And when the EU truly collapses, you can stay safe, pointing fingers at us and drinking tea under your cloudy weather[/nb]

What you're seeing is the result of a lot of confused and scared people who feel the country has no clear leadership. Referenda are one of the least democratic methods of making decisions, subject to mob rule and putting people in a position they don't feel comfortable with. They are all too often (and particularly with Brexit) a way for a government without conviction to scapegoat a choice on the public.

Britain, as it stands, has always been one of the least democratic nations in Europe and Brexit has only made that truer. If Scotland and Ireland break from the union as a result, which seems highly likely, we'll effectively live in a one party country with no governmental oversight. It's a chilling possibility.

[1024MAK]

I think there were a number of factors at play in the EU referendum.
First, I don't think that many voters actually understand what the EU is, or how it works in any detail. I say that, because some of the people voicing off talk about the EU being undemocratic. But think the British Parliamentary system is fine.

On another forum, a member was taking my reasons for remaining (posted in reply to someone else) and continuing to argue his case for leaving (keep in mind the thread was only opened after the result of the referendum was known). So I asked him if he knew who his MEP was and had he met or talked to him/her. Strangely he did not reply with any details.

Second, immigration, or rather the fear of it is a factor. How big is unclear, because as soon as you mention it, a lot of "leavers" claim that's not why they are for leaving, and then claim that it is the remain camp that are being racist! But plenty of people interviewed by the media give this as a reason and the UKIP were using propaganda around this issue.

Third, some no doubt used it as a protest vote, either against David Cameron / the government or against the establishment/ big business/ the rich etc.

Fourth, some in the political left have always been against the EU, seeing it as a right wing / big business friendly organisation that takes power away and uses said power to promote right wing / big business interests. Including blaming the EU for the privatisation of the U.K. railways, energy companies and a whole lot of other things that previous conservative govenments did.

Then there is the money. "Look at how much money we send to Brussels". Of course, the money that the EU spends in the U.K. was ignored by the leave campaign. Instead they made spending pledges on what they could spend the money on. Some of which they now say they were wrong about, so the NHS will not get millions more.

And then there are actually some who think that the UK is just as powerful now, as we were before the Second World War. And that we are being held back by being in the EU.

I voted to remain. I agree, both sides made a right mess of the campaign. Very little was said about what the EU is, or how it works. Even less about the good things it does / has done.

Some things leave me thinking what on earth, like what does 'we've got our country back now" even mean?

Oh, and the market / currency fluctuations do have an effect. Before the vote, I waited until the exchange rate between the USD and GBP was better before buying a product priced in USD. If I am doing this, how many others are.

Yes, the markets recover some of their value. But who knows what will happen in the future. The uncertainty alone will cause some people and some companies to wait and see. That is not good for anyone.

Mark

[Gryzor]

Referenda are one of the least democratic methods of making decisions,

Hm? Where does that come from? When did democracy through proxy become more real than direct democracy?


Government was introduced as a means to bypass some problems, the biggest of which being that with population rising it was not easy to hold votes on everything. But having a government, of course, creates its own problems, not the least of which being governments doing the exact opposite of what they were voted in for.


But regardless, what you say makes no sense -it's a contradiction in words. "Democracy" means "the power of the people" (well, a bit more complicated than that but anyhow). Not "power of the people through someone else".

subject to mob rule and putting people in a position they don't feel comfortable with.

This makes more sense. It's elitist at best, but it makes sense. But, who said that democracy is an easy thing? Seriously, we're talking about the best government system that we can think of (...) and you're worrying about "not feeling comfortable" with taking decisions? No wonder it's subject to mob rule!


So what's the solution to it - take the power of decision away from the people and give it to very specific centres of power, or maybe educate the 'mob' and make them participate more?


I was having this discussion with an English man a few days ago (he was kind enough to send me lots of 3" disks and manuals for free ), and I told him what 'idiot' originally means: he who does not participate in the common things. Whether by decision or through ignorance, it doesn't matter.

They are all too often (and particularly with Brexit) a way for a government without conviction to scapegoat a choice on the public.

We had the same -incomprehensible, IMO- argument here in Greece, too. If anyone feels scapegoated for voting for chrissakes, then let's all have a lobotomy and live in a dictatorship after all.

Britain, as it stands, has always been one of the least democratic nations in Europe and Brexit has only made that truer. If Scotland and Ireland break from the union as a result, which seems highly likely, we'll effectively live in a one party country with no governmental oversight. It's a chilling possibility.

How will Scotland and Ireland breaking away be an un-democratic thing? A sad development in some ways, a normal continuation of the decomposition of the British Empire in others, perhaps bad for the English economy, but I don't get the connection...

[Gryzor]

First, I don't think that many voters actually understand what the EU is, or how it works in any detail.

Completely agree; but that's part of the problem, too. Not only the lack of education, but also the fact that the EU is a hellhole of opaque bureaucracy.

I say that, because some of the people voicing off talk about the EU being undemocratic. But think the British Parliamentary system is fine.

Couldn't agree more, that's why I say that the most important issue is not whether in or out, but what you do after that -who does it and how, and what kind of oversight you have.

But plenty of people interviewed by the media give this as a reason and the UKIP were using propaganda around this issue.

As soon as I hear "the media" I stop paying attention

Then there is the money. "Look at how much money we send to Brussels".

Well here's the thing, though - the UK (and the other strong -or 'strong'- economies) of the EU are not supposed to have balanced flows or net inflows. A unified monetary policy means there must be funds transfers from some regions to the others. Supposedly, by doing that the common returns are bigger and everyone wins. Then again the UK was not in the monetary union so it gets a bit more complicated than that, and there my knowledge stops.

Of course, the money that the EU spends in the U.K. was ignored by the leave campaign. Instead they made spending pledges on what they could spend the money on. Some of which they now say they were wrong about, so the NHS will not get millions more.

Not sure about that. I mean, of course I'm not nearly as familiar as you are with what Farage said, but all I saw (repeatedly) was that "we spend xxx which could go to the NHS". That's a far cry from promising to spend it there (and how? he's not in government), even if you step outside polit-speak. A stretch, if you ask me, but of course I may well be lacking proper info.

And then there are actually some who think that the UK is just as powerful now, as we were before the Second World War. And that we are being held back by being in the EU.

Those are two separate points - maybe the UK is not as powerful, but it could be if it was outside the EU. I disagree with that, though - UK's 'power' problems lie elsewhere IMHO.

Oh, and the market / currency fluctuations do have an effect. Before the vote, I waited until the exchange rate between the USD and GBP was better before buying a product priced in USD. If I am doing this, how many others are.
Yes, the markets recover some of their value. But who knows what will happen in the future. The uncertainty alone will cause some people and some companies to wait and see. That is not good for anyone.

Oh, of course fluctuations do have an effect. I wasn't referring to that; of course a weak sterling will mean that your next XBOX will be more expensive, but equally surely it means that your products will sell more easily, and now we're getting deep enough. And undoubtedly the uncertainty is a factor.
But proclaiming doomsday based on a tiny piece of very, very short-term info is... well, lots of things, none of them good.

[||C|-|E||]

I've never cared much about politics, I find the subject quite boring. However, I care about science and I can tell you guys that for us, scientists working in UK, and for the future of science in here, this has probably been quite a dubious decision. It turns out that, for instance, my particular institute (no name, sorry) is a very prestigious public organization where most of the people (including bosses) are not a UK citizens (probably 95%). However, we all agree to work for one of the scientific flagships of the nation giving all the credit to the institute and UK (as is stated in our contract). Of course, in many cases european funding is used. This has been a big blow for the scientific community and the immediate impact and consequences were suffered as soon as yesterday, although I am afraid that I cannot say much more. Of course the vast majority of the voters are disconnected from this and they do not know or they do not care, it is OK, it happens in every country.