Brexit. UK Politics.

[Bryce]

I dont doubt that some companies will move from the UK. But you can also cling to the delusion that UK business will want to move to Ireland? France, yeah perhaps. Germany, yeah probably a good move. But Ireland where the only thing you have going is the tax break, which might help companies but not the people. Ireland the country where the most basic item of life after air and which falls freely from the sky is something many Irish people cant afford. Business will join the mainland, not Ireland.

It won't be British companies moving to Ireland, it'll be the multi-nationals who have three main goals: English speaking staff, Low tax and access to Europe. These companies will most likely move to Ireland. Otherwise you better tell Google, Facebook, Apple, Intel and all the others that they've made a bad choice.
Financial Institutes will most likely move to Germany, some have to such as Euro clearing houses, others will choose to.

@Puresox: Yes, that's reality, lots of foreigners. However, several things to keep in mind:
- It has been long proven that immigrants bring a net worth to a country, they don't cost money.
- Minimum wages in UK are decided by your own government, not the EU (and the UK happen to have the highest in the EU and a 38 hour working week). 40quid a day is a disgrace, but one that your own elected officials have decided is ok for its people.
- NHS, Schools and services under stress (and at the same time people looking for jobs?). So why isn't the government building and opening more public services? It would bring employment to builders, nurses, doctors, teachers, auxilliary services etc. The NHS is just broken, it wouldn't work even if half of the UK left tomorrow.

None of these are EU made problems.

One thing that I really am looking forward to find out what happens: The UK government has for years been using the EU excuse to explain away their own bad decisions. I wonder who they're going to blaim when they are on their own?

Bryce.

[Trebmint]

It won't be British companies moving to Ireland, it'll be the multi-nationals who have three main goals: English speaking staff, Low tax and access to Europe. These companies will most likely move to Ireland. Otherwise you better tell Google, Facebook, Apple, Intel and all the others that they've made a bad choice.
Financial Institutes will most likely move to Germany, some have to such as Euro clearing houses, others will choose to.

@Puresox: Yes, that's reality, lots of foreigners. However, several things to keep in mind:
- It has been long proven that immigrants bring a net worth to a country, they don't cost money.
- Minimum wages in UK are decided by your own government, not the EU (and the UK happen to have the highest in the EU and a 38 hour working week). 40quid a day is a disgrace, but one that your own elected officials have decided is ok for its people.
- NHS, Schools and services under stress (and at the same time people looking for jobs?). So why isn't the government building and opening more public services? It would bring employment to builders, nurses, doctors, teachers, auxilliary services etc. The NHS is just broken, it wouldn't work even if half of the UK left tomorrow.

None of these are EU made problems.

One thing that I really am looking forward to find out what happens: The UK government has for years been using the EU excuse to explain away their own bad decisions. I wonder who they're going to blaim when they are on their own?

Bryce.

You only truly require english speaking people if you're trying to sell into the UK. Without being rude Ireland is tiny and many of its investments hang from its connection with the UK due to the language. Ireland will suffer most from the UK exit. Scotland will probably join the EU now, and I expect they will get much of the Irish trade, as the education system and skills in Scotland is higher than that of ireland. 
And imho multinationals are a disgusting development of globalism. Allowing companies to leave their roots and devastate communities in doing so maybe a reality but its not one I will accept as good reason for voting. They basically blackmail countries and people.
This anti UK sentiment is not nice, nor helpful. Perhaps in five or ten years when we're all still CPC fans we can ask this question as to what the effects have been. But until then I think its just coming across as a bit nasty and bitter

[Bryce]

That wasn't rude, just ill-informed. Even if Scotland decided to join the EU today. How long do you think till they were in? 10 years? 15? By then the companies will already have chosen their new home.

The multi-nationals I mentioned didn't go to Ireland for access to England, otherwise they would have gone directly to the UK or Scotland. As for education levels, I had to laugh, you obviously haven't done your homework. According to Eurostat, Ireland not only comes above Scotland, but also England in all levels of education. Have you based your views on Ireland from the Father Ted series perhaps?

Yes, Ireland will suffer from the Brexit, mainly due to the high percentage of Irish export that goes to the UK. With the pound heading steadily towards parity with the Euro, those exports are loosing value by the day.

Bryce.

[Trebmint]

If Scotland choose to have a referendum and leave the UK, it will before Brexit happens. They wont leave the EU for a single day - I suggest you're ill-informed. Thanks for the Father Ted slur, but I might point out that Scotland has a higher number of Degrees & PhD's per capita than England and Ireland. If Ireland want to offer tax breaks to companies then that's really up to them. But if all you can offer is that you're cheap then its not that good an advert is it.


And Ireland will only suffer from losing exports to the Uk based on the £ dropping??? Are you basing that on a trend of a few days, or just wishful thinking? Nobody knows how the UK will do. A pound to euro parity I doubt will ever happen. In all likelihood we're more likely to see something like the Swiss model where they had to un-peg the franc from the euro due to the EU's currency constantly devaluing. You cant just print 85billion euros as the ECB is doing a month out of thin air and think you're not going to devalue the currency or have inflation.


 

[Shaun M. Neary]

I understand you're just trying to support your view, but the idea that the people of the UK woke up and instantly regretted that decision is wrong. You can cling to the idea that we had a mass one day delusion if you want.

You're using the word delusion, I'm not so sure you understand it's meaning. It's certainly not a mass one day delusion, more and more people are coming out admitting they had no idea that Brexit meant leaving Europe, if you want to see that as a knee jerk reaction, then fine. Be prepared to see a lot more of them. 

I dont doubt that some companies will move from the UK. But you can also cling to the delusion that UK business will want to move to Ireland? France, yeah perhaps. Germany, yeah probably a good move. But Ireland where the only thing you have going is the tax break, which might help companies but not the people. Ireland the country where the most basic item of life after air and which falls freely from the sky is something many Irish people cant afford. Business will join the mainland, not Ireland.

Two things there.


1) I never mentioned UK businesses. I was more referring to the multinationals for a lower tax break. Inferring that Ireland is cheap as a result is insulting, especially as it will ultimately create more employment for us while the multinationals put the UK workers on the welfare line. Again, short sighted views landing the leave voters in trouble.

2) Please get your facts straight regarding the water charges. We can afford to pay for it, in fact, we've been paying for it already two or three times as part of other charges, we just don't trust it in the hands of a private company lead by a slimy bastard who has proven that can't be trusted, and we don't want to pay for it a fourth time. If you're going to throw facts in a bad attempt to be smart, please at least do your research.


Yeah I'm done with this thread. Once you go grasping at straws, there's no going back really. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how ill informed it is, which is exactly why Britain is in the mess it's in now.
Good day, sir.

[Gryzor]

but the EU will work just fine without the UK

As fine as it has been working up to now? Also, give it a few years. Could well turn out that a UK exit may well be the beginning of the end, hence why central politicians have been shitting in their pants...

If Scotland choose to have a referendum and leave the UK, it will before Brexit happens. They wont leave the EU for a single day

I don't think so; most probably there would be an accelerated process, but Scotland is NOT in the EU. So they'd have to go through something to get there. It's like saying any single region in the EU could declare independence and it'd automatically be, as a sovereign state, part of the EU. Source

Are you basing that on a trend of a few days, or just wishful thinking? Nobody knows how the UK will do.

How true. Had a meeting with my company's analysts this morning and the consensus was, it's probably going to rise again (some a bit more precise predictions were thrown around) but nobody knows what it'll do. I think it's going to find a balance soon enough, gaining part of the loss, and afterwards who-the-fuck-knows.
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- It has been long proven that immigrants bring a net worth to a country, they don't cost money.

Sources? Immigration economics is such a complex (and more often than not, politically loaded) question that claiming "it's been long proven that..." strikes me as strange, to say the least.

- Minimum wages in UK are decided by your own government, not the EU (and the UK happen to have the highest in the EU and a 38 hour working week). 40quid a day is a disgrace, but one that your own elected officials have decided is ok for its people.

Absolutely true; but it gets easier if you have a workforce readily available to take up such low wages - i.e., immigrants.

- NHS, Schools and services under stress (and at the same time people looking for jobs?). So why isn't the government building and opening more public services? It would bring employment to builders, nurses, doctors, teachers, auxilliary services etc. The NHS is just broken, it wouldn't work even if half of the UK left tomorrow.

What is the argument here? That the NHS doesn't have a staffing problem or that there are not unemployed medical professionals?

One thing that I really am looking forward to find out what happens: The UK government has for years been using the EU excuse to explain away their own bad decisions. I wonder who they're going to blaim when they are on their own? 

Heheh I was thinking the same thing myself... but you know, they'll probably blame "the last guys"

[Bryce]

What is the argument here? That the NHS doesn't have a staffing problem or that there are not unemployed medical professionals?

The argument is that the NHS problems have nothing to do with immigrants or the EU. It's just a broken system that hasn't kept up with the requirements.

Bryce.

[Gryzor]

The argument is that the NHS problems have nothing to do with immigrants or the EU. It's just a broken system that hasn't kept up with the requirements.

Ah yes, with that I agree. It was either at the beginning of this thread or some other thread where I said that yes, the immigrant population is, for me, way too high, but the fact that the NHS is broken is not a cause of it. It may be getting worse because of it, but immigration is certainly not the cause.

[Trebmint]

You're using the word delusion, I'm not so sure you understand it's meaning. It's certainly not a mass one day delusion, more and more people are coming out admitting they had no idea that Brexit meant leaving Europe, if you want to see that as a knee jerk reaction, then fine. Be prepared to see a lot more of them. 

At weekend I work at a trendy vintage market in London and spent most of that time talking to lots people. Not one person that voted leave says they regretted it to me. Most were suprized and happy. So "more and more coming out that they didn't know it meant leaving europe"... is simply not truth. There were some people that voted remain that were annoyed, but most seemed to just accept it for what it is.


The media before the vote lined up virtually every political leader from every country, bank or whatever trying to scare people and yet the people voted to leave anyway. But now you're trying to tell us they are scared and regretful and not knowing what they voted for? I wont see it as a knee jerk reaction, because its not actually happening like that. Sorry I suspect that RTE have had to throw quite a lot of video tape in the bin until they got enough interviews of leave voters who are only now seeing the light.

I wonder why the media aren't running interviews of people that voted to remain, but since the UK didn't implode on friday now wish they'd voted to leave? Cos they probably exist too


Why cant people just accept that people voted this way. I find it really annoying that people assume they know the future. I don't know. You don't know. Just sticking a    at the end of the paragraph doesn't mean you've won an argument

[Shaun M. Neary]

Your assumptions make me cringe, Trebmint.


I wouldn't trust RTE if my life depended on it due to their state run spin.
I'm talking Sky News, BBC, ITV, and everything that turns up on my social media feeds that aren't likely to have a state run spin. You can claim the government has control over every single UK media outlet, but even that's a stretch for the most desperate conspiracy theorists.


I agree, none of us know the future, but the fact remains, the leave campaign was based primarily on two things, both of which had the rug pulled from under the feet as soon as it was voted in. So now what's the point in leaving the EU if nothing's going to technically change, except for, you know, the economy? Increased racism, business pulling out of your country, your currency hitting it's all time low in over 30 years (and still dipping, i'm actually monitoring it as I've a lot of stuff I have my eye on in the UK to buy, but the rate went crazy in the last year).


THAT is what people are pissed off about. Everything that was voted for isn't actually going ahead, so in a nutshell, nothing has changed except the damage that has left behind.


Lastly, I'm not arguing. You don't know me, I'm not some armchair expert who watches the news. I travel to and from the UK quite a bit as a music photographer, be it Belfast, London, Manchester, Nottingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Bristol to name a few. I don't know anyone in ANY of those cities who thinks leaving is a smart move. But I guess we travel in different circles, and I accept that.


But for a so called good move, it's not off to a great start, is it?

[Gryzor]

Guys, try to keep calm, please? Thanks.


Well, I have no idea about ITV. But I regularly follow the BBC, both on TV and online, and the way it has gone in recent years is just shameful. I have no opinion about Sky News, but on the Brexit day we had it playing here at the office all day and... let's say some of their economic and financial commentary did raise some eyebrows and one near-choke.


It's not a "government-controlled" media issue people are referring to, that's a rather plain way to see it...


PS Since you're monitoring it, you'll have seen the GBP is up by .85% today

[Trebmint]

Well Shaun all I can say is you only seem to visit places in the UK that voted to remain - And that's no bad thing. As for the media I think its hard to argue that the TV media has been anything but pro remain (and remain so), and the printed press mostly pro leave (and are as smug as hell). Mad claims were made from both sides. So many in fact its hard to list all the disgusting methods that were involved from clear racist posters, fear, lies from both sides and even the use of a murdered mp. Speaking personally I was so glad when the vote took place as I was bored from hearing such rubbish from everywhere.


Now I may have come across in this thread as 100% pro leave, but that not really true. I can see both sides, and I don't honestly know if it was the correct choice. The reason I seem so vehement is that its done and people seem unable to accept the result. The EU leaders just seem so bitter against us because the majority voted out. This Junkers guy seems to be acting like a disgruntled child throwing his toys around



Farage is a hateful turd of a man. Boris is a clever buffoon character. Cameron was an idiot who believed he could bomb Syria and then seek to change immigration law when strangely Syrians decided to move to europe.


What can I say except this whole vote was probably very misjudged by all the politicians from the UK and EU.


And as for your last point about it not going too well so far. Its been 3 days.... but the FTSE is up 2% today so we're saved Perhaps lets talk again in 3 years when we have facts rather than opinions


   

[Bryce]

I think what's disgruntled many foreign leaders is the fact that they spent a lot of time, money and resources over the last few years, negotiating with the UK to give them a better deal and at the end of the day, they vote to leave.

Bryce.

[Trebmint]

I think what's disgruntled many foreign leaders is the fact that they spent a lot of time, money and resources over the last few years, negotiating with the UK to give them a better deal and at the end of the day, they vote to leave.

Bryce.

Did they not get paid or something?

[TFM]

It's interesting that actually nobody addressed the core of the problem, which is National Sovereignty vs. EU Dictatorship. Anything else is knocking around the bush.

[Bryce]

Yes, but probably spent late nights working and away from the family etc. If I spend months doing a project and it gets cancelled at the last minute, I'm still pissed off, even though I got paid. It's the feeling that your efforts were all for nothing.

@TFM: Dictatorship is a very harsh word, that definitely doesn't belong in a discussion about the EU.

Bryce. 

[Trebmint]

Yes, but probably spent late nights working and away from the family etc. If I spend months doing a project and it gets cancelled at the last minute, I'm still pissed off, even though I got paid. It's the feeling that your efforts were all for nothing.

@TFM: Dictatorship is a very harsh word, that definitely doesn't belong in a discussion about the EU.

Bryce.

Well If you'd given more, say free tickets to everyone to Eurodisney we'd probably have voted remain. Seriously though Cameron came away from those talks with little too show and looked like a complete idiot in the british media. It would have been better to have not had the talks at all. It just made the EU look like they didn't care about UK concerns and Cameron just look weak.
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[1024MAK]

Hmm, "National Sovereignty".

People keep using that word "Sovereignty" in relation to the U.K.
And the expression "we got our country back".

Given that we are a Kingdom and the PM has almost as much power as the old Kings of England and Wales, what on earth does Sovereignty give me?

Answer, absolutely nothing. In most areas, very large numbers of people (more than half) are ruled by a government they did not vote for.

And I'm sorry, but our country never left, so it can't have come back!

Okay, so if a lot of people knew what they were voting for, how come most people don't know who their MEP is?

Mark

[Shaun M. Neary]

@TFM: Dictatorship is a very harsh word, that definitely doesn't belong in a discussion about the EU.

Bryce.

THIS! The EU was never a dictatorship.
Definitely gone from this discussion / debate now. The wheels have come off the wagon and most of the points are moot at this stage.

[Puresox]

The Democracy was pretty thin though , we had 73 MEP's amongst 760-odd .  No opposing party ? How can a system make decisions, that cover such diverse and different countries ?

[Bryce]

The democracy happens at the local level, ie: when those 73 MEPs are chosen. When you voted for the UK Parliament you were chosing between your chosen party and the opposition. The 760 odd are the represtentatives of each country as chosen by the population of that country.

Bryce.

[1024MAK]

The Democracy was pretty thin though , we had 73 MEP's amongst 760-odd .  No opposing party ? How can a system make decisions, that cover such diverse and different countries ?

That's the same regardless of the area covered by an representative elected democracy. So you can same exactly the same about the House of Commons. How can one MP represent the town I live in and the countryside around the town? How can he/she represent Labour voters, Conservative voters, Green Party voters and Liberal Democratic voters? Let alone how can a government that normally only picks MPs from a single part for the cabinet properly represent all the voters?

Mark

[Bryce]

That's the same regardless of the area covered by an representative elected democracy. So you can same exactly the same about the House of Commons. How can one MP represent the town I live in and the countryside around the town? How can he/she represent Labour voters, Conservative voters, Green Party voters and Liberal Democratic voters? Let alone how can a government that normally only picks MPs from a single part for the cabinet properly represent all the voters?

Mark

The simple answer is they can't. However, that's the way democracy works and until they find a better solution, that's the one we're stuck with.

Bryce.

[Trebmint]

The simple answer is they can't. However, that's the way democracy works and until they find a better solution, that's the one we're stuck with.

Bryce.

Technically for democracy you would have to allow anyone from any country to vote for any of the political parties standing. As a brit I can't vote Syriza, so by definition its not actually democracy. Of course this way would lead to cross nation political parties being set up, which will lead to a stronger federalism, and a loss of national identity, which is probably not what people want either.

[Audronic]

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Ray