Author Topic: Brexit. UK Politics.  (Read 15883 times)

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Offline reidrac

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #25 on: 15:23, 24 February 16 »
So you and the other EU countries are happy to have non-elected officials telling you what to do? Is that even a democracy any more?

Which non-elected officials? Do you mean the EU Commission[1]? The EU Parliament[2]?

The EU Parliament has legislative power (the Commission doesn't), and you voted your EU MPs (last time in 2014).

1: List of European Commissioners by nationality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_European_Parliament
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Offline Bryce

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #26 on: 15:23, 24 February 16 »
Yes, of course there would be new agreements between the UK and many countries, Britain certainly isn't just going to sit there and do nothing, but their bargaining power would be reduced, so I don't think the deal would be as good. Like anything in economics, if I a small shop buys 1000 items from a supplier, they will pay a higher price than a chain of shops that orders 1 million items. That's why supermarkets are cheaper than corner shops and why bigger groups of countries get better deals.

Bryce.

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #27 on: 15:26, 24 February 16 »
Which non-elected officials? Do you mean the EU Commission[1]? The EU Parliament[2]?

The EU Parliament has legislative power (the Commission doesn't), and you voted your EU MPs (last time in 2014).

1: List of European Commissioners by nationality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_European_Parliament


European Commission, unelected by the people, they are the government of Europe!


Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #28 on: 15:29, 24 February 16 »
Yes, of course there would be new agreements between the UK and many countries, Britain certainly isn't just going to sit there and do nothing, but their bargaining power would be reduced, so I don't think the deal would be as good. Like anything in economics, if I a small shop buys 1000 items from a supplier, they will pay a higher price than a chain of shops that orders 1 million items. That's why supermarkets are cheaper than corner shops and why bigger groups of countries get better deals.

Bryce.


But I argue that Britain isn't a small shop, Europe needs us, fifth richest economy. Like I've already mentioned, I want to stay, better together. But it's good I think to talk about these issues without slamming each other  ;)

Offline reidrac

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #29 on: 15:31, 24 February 16 »

European Commission, unelected by the people


The commissioners are appointed by the member states, the UK government put the UK commissioners there.

Thanks for clarifying your point.
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Offline Bryce

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #30 on: 15:33, 24 February 16 »

European Commission, unelected by the people, they are the government of Europe!

A bit like the house of lords then? They aren't elected by the people and have legislative powers in the UK.

Yes, the UK isn't a corner shop, but they are only about 9% of the EU population. Yes, they are important for the EU, but not important enough that the EU would crumble without them.

Bryce.

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #31 on: 15:34, 24 February 16 »
@reidrac Oh c'mon, where are you from, so I know what party you support, everyone knows we're being governed by unelected bureaucrats. I certainly didn't knowingly vote them in.
« Last Edit: 15:38, 24 February 16 by ukmarkh »

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #32 on: 15:36, 24 February 16 »
A bit like the house of lords then? They aren't elected by the people and have legislative powers in the UK.

Yes, the UK isn't a corner shop, but they are only about 9% of the EU population. Yes, they are important for the EU, but not important enough that the EU would crumble without them.

Bryce.


That's silly talk, only 9% of the population means nothing, but look how much we make, trade and deal on a daily, monthly or yearly basis.

Offline dragon

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #33 on: 15:37, 24 February 16 »

There's no evidence to support that Nissan would do that, but I agree, it would seem like the common sense approach. But you didn't answer my question?


I don't believe Britain is this week nation that would suffer, in fact we would work direct with china and Japan, in fact all countries. It wouldn't be in any countries interest to severe relations with Britain.

Speaking from outside point if view,  i think u.k lost if it go outside de ue. Many people buy in u.k over internet, because u.k dont have tax to the import. Ebay, amazon, zavy etc etc.

In the other hand uk traditionally is the base to the big international tecnological enterprises to europe, has sony computer entertaiment europe for example.

I don't think nissan go to spain, i think go to a east contry. We lost many enterprise as sony tv in barcelona factory  to these cheap countrys.

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #34 on: 15:40, 24 February 16 »
Speaking from outside point if view,  i think u.k lost if it go outside de ue. Many people buy in u.k over internet, because u.k dont have tax to the import. Ebay, amazon, zavy etc etc.

In the other hand uk traditionally is the base to the big international tecnological enterprises to europe, has sony computer entertaiment europe for example.

I don't think nissan go to spain, i think go to a east contry. We lost many enterprise as sony tv in barcelona factory  to these cheap countrys.


I hate to say, but Spain is just about treading water, the country is on its arse, which is a shame, as it's one of the most beautiful countries in the world.

Offline reidrac

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #35 on: 15:43, 24 February 16 »
@reidrac Oh c'mon, where are you from, so I know what party you support, everyone knows we're being governed by unelected bureaucrats. I certainly didn't knowingly vote them in.

I don't have a side on this, is not my call.

Let me apologise, I shouldn't reply to you with links to the Wikipedia. It's just that people seem to repeat what they hear around and sometimes is not completely accurate. The details are important. The people in the commission were put there by the members of the EU, but people refer to them like they follow their own evil interests or something like that.

I'm out this thread.
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Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #36 on: 15:51, 24 February 16 »
I don't have a side on this, is not my call.

Let me apologise, I shouldn't reply to you with links to the Wikipedia. It's just that people seem to repeat what they hear around and sometimes is not completely accurate. The details are important. The people in the commission were put there by the members of the EU, but people refer to them like they follow their own evil interests or something like that.

I'm out this thread.


My point is, the laws are made by people that you can't vote for or remove. C'mon, how can you ignore this.
« Last Edit: 16:03, 24 February 16 by ukmarkh »

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #37 on: 15:53, 24 February 16 »
The details are important. The people in the commission were put there by the members of the EU,


Since details are important, it'd be equally interesting and important to examine the politics that got those people appointed to those positions. Hiding behind generalisations like "the members of the EU" is the all-too-often excuse for closet authoritarianism.

Offline reidrac

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #38 on: 15:56, 24 February 16 »

My point is, the laws [/size]are made by people that you can't vote for or remove. C'mon, how can you ignore this. [/color]

They propose initiatives and those commissioners come from the government you elected in your country so they're aligned with your country's interests (I hope).

The EU Parliament is the one that passes the laws, and that one is directly elected by the people.

You know, I think is pretty clear how it works, which is far different from your initial comment.

Anyway, not interested in this topic. I already put my 2 cents.
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Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #39 on: 16:05, 24 February 16 »
They propose initiatives and those commissioners come from the government you elected in your country so they're aligned with your country's interests (I hope).

The EU Parliament is the one that passes the laws, and that one is directly elected by the people.

You know, I think is pretty clear how it works, which is far different from your initial comment.

Anyway, not interested in this topic. I already put my 2 cents.


The reason we're having this debate is because they're not fcuking listening, they've become power mongers, that's why we're in the mess we're in FFS! lol
« Last Edit: 17:01, 24 February 16 by Gryzor »

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #40 on: 16:07, 24 February 16 »
People, come down. On either side, if you can't be calm I'm locking the thread.

Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #41 on: 16:19, 24 February 16 »
 I'm just stating that all is not as it seems, but people can't see it. It's like Europeans think this is just a British issue, what has happened here is worse than anyone recognises, what all of us have done is given away our democracy, but we didn't know, nobody told us, we've all being lied to, we've given everything away to the complexity of the European Union. As I mentioned earlier, 75% of laws that should come from Britain, are not made by the British government, or the British people, they're made by European commissioners. It's hard for people to accept or believe, but it has happened.


 
But lets stay, reform the EU as a collection of states, but take back the basics, like control of borders, Laws, keep ties with the Common Wealth and give our sovereign nations, their Supreme courts back. It should be a partnership, not a dictatorship!   

Offline Gryzor

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #42 on: 16:26, 24 February 16 »
I think that any union that is being imposed rather than cultivated is sentenced to end in a catastrophe, more or less. Europe is not the Seven Kingdoms of China or the six (?) Shogunates of medieval Japan, to be united by force and wait a few centuries for the common spirit to evolve. It was a grave mistake to attempt a union other than an economic one.


And of course, it's all for the money - does anyone remember the doomed "constitution" they tried to impose? How much of it was devoted to "freedom" of trading and how much to the freedom of men?


And, of course (bis), anyone who thinks that the union was the result of people's will is forgetting how much money was spent in propaganda advertising (for the Maastricht treaty, for instance), money that came out of our own pockets, while the opposite side got shit-all...

Offline OCT

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #43 on: 20:11, 24 February 16 »
Europeans think this is just a British issue
No they don't, nor do they "hate" or "not want" any particular Member State (no matter how hard some governments seem to be working on bringing such sentiment upon their own countries).
Quote
what all of us have done is given away our democracy, but we didn't know, nobody told us, we've all be[en]lied to, we've given everything away to the complexity of the European Union.
Are you saying what accession would mean completely slipped under the radar through decades of debate by parliament(s) and press incl. some of the most eminent legal scholars?
"An ever closer union" was in the 1957 Treaty of Rome. For Maastricht they wanted to drop it; IIRC the one insisting to keep these words was none other than John Major.
Quote
As I mentioned earlier, 75% of laws that should come from Britain, are not made by the British government, or the British people, they're made by European commissioners.
They're proposed by them or by the Council comprised of our very own governments; an elected parliament has yet to adopt them (and the Member States often get some flexibility in their implementation).
Indirect representation and delegated authority should not be confounded with democratic deficit (which has seen some improvement of late).
Conferral, subsidiarity and proportionality are actually principles of Art. 5 TEU: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:115:0013:0045:en:PDF
On the other hand there's no denying that national governments are tempted to "outsource" decisions they couldn't get adopted domestically (where they then whine about how e.g. "Brussels" imposed upon them what they approved themselves in Council and/or through "their" Commissioners).
Having a press (news media) that isn't quite the Fourth Estate of Burke's day anymore (in spite of its wider reach, if it ever was) does help those manoeuvres quite a lot.
« Last Edit: 20:52, 24 February 16 by OCT »

Offline dragon

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #44 on: 23:23, 24 February 16 »

I hate to say, but Spain is just about treading water, the country is on its arse, which is a shame, as it's one of the most beautiful countries in the world.

And i hate to say, if u.k go outside ue, gribaltar share the destiny of spain. Because their economy depend of her fiscal special status inside the ue, wich is a shame,as it's one of the beautiful u,k ultramar colony.

So be preparing to paid more tax to mantein  it(if uk abandon ue).


Offline 1024MAK

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #45 on: 04:19, 25 February 16 »
Reading this thread, it saddens me to think that a whole lot of UK citizens will vote without actually knowing what being in the EU means. Nor knowing how it works.

All laws in England and Wales are made by the British Parliament in Westminster (Scotland has it's own legal system so I will leave the Scots out). Each of which is debated. We even have a dedicated TV channel you can watch (how many in the UK even know the channel number?).
 
Yes, the European legislature passes European Law. But it is up to each member state to implement the appropriate law in their own country.

Oh, and how many people actually know how our own legislature system works? Hands up those who elected the privy council...

The population rise in England and Wales has always varied over time. Native Britain’s now often have much smaller families than in the past, when a family often had four to six children. The problem in the UK regarding numbers is a lack of investment rather than a sudden rise in population. And of course, people will believe the rubbish about people coming here and immediately getting hundreds of pound of benefits a week. If you really think that is true, give up your job and try it yourself. BTW, anyone remember the TV series Bread?

And while we are on about misinformation, can someone please tell me all about the bad laws that so say come from the EU. I would like a list and a reason why they are bad. Only everyone who wants out always conveniently forgets all the good laws.

Hmm, borders. If we leave the EU, can I set up a border to separate my bit of England from the rest of the UK? Can I stop paying tax to central government? Why not force everyone to produce their passport when travelling between each town/city/county.

Back in the real world, we have never been able to properly police our border (and in recent years the government has reduced funding for the service). Why do you think life outside the EU will be any different?

Mark



Looking forward to summer in Somerset :-)

Offline Bryce

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #46 on: 10:22, 25 February 16 »
4 to 6 children! That's nothing! In Ireland you're considered to be an only child until you have at least 11 siblings :D

Bryce.

Offline OCT

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #47 on: 10:52, 25 February 16 »
people that don't live in the uk and therfore don't know what they are talking about.

...unless you are British or at least living here now you're only repeating what your media tells you and don't understand where we are coming from.
Saxony, Scandinavia, then Normandy since 1066? ;)
But seriously, whose generalisations are those? How much deeper than debates of the House and decades of British publications do other Europeans (many of whom spend significant time on "your" island & try to receive the BBC while they don't) have to dig ad fontes for you to concede more insight to them than "just parroting their press"? (but even spell like you do... ::) FYI "independent" national TV is so unpopular in parts of the Continent that their Licence had to be replaced by a borderline-unconstitutional "tax on non-homelessness" just to keep people paying for spin they refuse to watch...)

Offline seanb

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #48 on: 11:33, 25 February 16 »
What does your comment even mean.
What does Normandy 1000 years ago have to do with someone living in lichtenstein today and their in depth knowledge on the British way of life, British sentiment and British politics?

It doesn't matter how much tv you watch unless you live in that country you only know what your tv tells you and I doubt people in the continent spend a substantial amount of time paying attention to British politics or researching what the average brit on the street thinks.

Even spending a few weeks here from time to time doesn't give you that much insight because the will and attitude of any nations people is complex and cannot be understood on a package holiday.
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Offline ukmarkh

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Re: Brexit. UK Politics.
« Reply #49 on: 12:28, 25 February 16 »
You know exactly what he means, it's exactly what I touched on earlier, but apparently it's all in my head.

Anyway, this just in:

http://news.sky.com/story/1648405/uk-net-migration-up-by-31000-ons-figures


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