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Quote from: OCT on 18:17, 23 February 16
They're wielding their standard scarecrow of "We'll leave the EU, unless: postages go down, or Euro against the pound, or any other pet peeve du jour (and then have to beg France on our knees to allow us back in)"  ::) , again, simple as that.
So, French's gotta wait (so does German) on this forum too until they've held their referendum (and stay, if ve & vous want them to). ;D

While I can see where the logic is here, this is harsh on the many, many British people who do not want to leave the EU. You are tarring us all with the same brush when many of us share your opinions, and are just as horrified by the current government and general political atmosphere here as our friends in Europe are. At least until the referendum, you aren't speaking about a majority of UK citizens, and I hope not even then. WRT some of your other comments, you also forget that many of the people of voting age in the UK now were not even born when the UK entered the EU.

What is going on is the same as in any country when there are harsh economic difficulties. Some ignorant members of society will always blame all the problems on someone else, often bringing nationality into it as the popular flag of stupidity. After that, hard left or right politics rise in popularity because they claim they can offer a solution that somehow justifies ignorant people's belief that all their problems are caused by someone else. In this case the long toted, legendary "fact" known for 40 years by all "blokes down the pub" is "we should never have joined the EU", and it's a really easy target for politicians and tabloid newspapers to use that simultaneously finds someone to blame and provides a "solution" - leaving the EU.

I can't believe that so much time and effort is being wasted even considering leaving. It scares me, because (1) it will be very bad for the economy, (2) I actually believe in a unified Europe, and (3) I loathe nationalism. I also can't believe that the catastrophic impact on the economy has not been presented to us (it isn't complicated, who do people think we do most of our trading with?) Or the fact that, even if it was a bad idea to join the EU, it is a worse one to leave now.

I just hope that many of those who voted for our current government are regretting their decision now that they see the underhand tactics at play, where they wish to silence all opposition while making changes to and destroying things that we desperately need (like the national health service).

Anyway, I must concede that if the UK leaves, which is very possible, it will probably end up wanting to join again in 5 or 10 years time. I hope that it will be welcomed back when we get rid of the current idiots in charge (and I really hope we can do that).

Two things i have learned about discussions in Forums: Don't talk about Politics and don't talk about Religion.

I don't want to leave and most people I know that do want to do simply because Cameron wants us to stay  :D

Besides most of the talk on here is from people that don't live in the uk and therfore don't know what they are talking about.

Sorry to be blunt but unless you are British or at least living here now you're only repeating what your media tells you and don't understand where we are coming from.


This thread could implode  :o
Let's get popcorn but not salted. How anyone can eat that crap is beyond me.

Uh, what happened? A three/two post thread ?

About Brexit: if the majority (and not the majority of people that go for voting) of britains want to leave, so they shall do.
Free people they are !

I am Pro-European since I grew up, if only to keep us europeans from another war against each other ... but EU and Europe are very different things.

Let's stay a band of cpc-brothers, whatever the politicians want us to be

For what it's worth I definitely do not want to leave. I love you guys and the UK is far better off in Europe than it would ever be out. Leaving Europe is a step backwards, and a step that would allow our insane government to destroy the country unhindered!

I am not much into politics (if at all) and being Spanish, although living in London, I do not feel that I have any right to tell the people from UK what to do  :) . However, if UK was leaving that would probably put me, my gf and many other "adopted" biological researchers in a struggle. Even my boss is German! Well, let´s see what happens  :)

We won't leave ||C|-|E|| (did I do that right?) so wouldn't worry about it.
Its all hot air from what we call the daily mail demographic

Basically it is easy to get advantages from European union system : just threat that you may ask population something via referendum.

There is nothing that european union/innstitutions fear most than direct popular consultation.

Not that it would mater anyway, but at least it cracks the paint and just show a bit more that "Democracy" is not what we have.
Yet we love to critisize China, Russia or anything against the World order/USA/Banks/whatever... and tell them how not democracy they are.
Still good to go lick some Saoudian balls and rape our people's convictions because petrodollars can be more sacred.


I wish my presumedly leftist president had balls and would make such ultimatums as organizing referendums. But the guy is such a tool.

I love Europe, I hate the EU, everyone should!!!

"they" try hard to get some semantic shift so "Europe" and "EU" become the same... but really...

In or out, the rich will benefit and the poor will pay. Just how it always works out with the parasites in control of this planet.

I don't think that Britain will leave. Just as with the Scotland referendum where it was in the best interests of the powers that be for it to remain a part of the UK, so the UK will remain a part of Europe. The result will be rigged. Because as with Scotland leaving the UK would have set a precedent and potentially triggered a domino effect of nations splitting up, the same will likely happen with the EU. And the unelected bureaucrats will lose their cash cow without an EU to dictate.

EVERYTHING in this world revolves around money. Its sad and depressing.

Quote from: EgoTrip on 00:51, 24 February 16
In or out, the rich will benefit and the poor will pay. Just how it always works out with the parasites in control of this planet.

I don't think that Britain will leave. Just as with the Scotland referendum where it was in the best interests of the powers that be for it to remain a part of the UK, so the UK will remain a part of Europe. The result will be rigged. Because as with Scotland leaving the UK would have set a precedent and potentially triggered a domino effect of nations splitting up, the same will likely happen with the EU. And the unelected bureaucrats will lose their cash cow without an EU to dictate.

EVERYTHING in this world revolves around money. Its sad and depressing.

Exactly, most of my family are from Italy, Germany, Ireland and Spain... In the end, we're the same, all screwed!

Quote from: Munchausen on 20:46, 23 February 16
While I can see where the logic is here, this is harsh on the many, many British people who do not want to leave the EU. You are tarring us all with the same brush

No offence intended, the (reasoned) bluntness was in reply to IMHO misplaced eurosceptic allusions (and trying to keep that thread from veering off-topic while conceding that the EU deserves criticism for so much else):
C4CPC 3D printed cartridge (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/c4c4c-3d-printed-cartridge/msg120704/#msg120704)
C4CPC 3D printed cartridge (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/c4c4c-3d-printed-cartridge/msg120795/#msg120795)

Quotemany of the people of voting age in the UK now were not even born when the UK entered the EU

Yes, but then shouldn't the UK parliament have considered before accession (when "ever closer" was already "acquis") whether it wanted to (and constitutionally even could) perpetually bind its (successors') hands, or put it up for yet another vote once every generation? The latter being dangerous as well because it puts international obligations at populist mercy:

Quotethe long toted, legendary "fact" known for 40 years by all "blokes down the pub" is "we should never have joined the EU", and it's a really easy target for politicians and tabloid newspapers to use that simultaneously finds someone to blame and provides a "solution" - leaving the EU.

Quoteit isn't complicated, who do people think we do most of our trading with?) Or the fact that, even if it was a bad idea to join the EU, it is a worse one to leave now.

Actually some of your trading partners joined the EU mainly because the UK did.

QuoteAnyway, I must concede that if the UK leaves, which is very possible, it will probably end up wanting to join again in 5 or 10 years time. I hope that it will be welcomed back

...which wasn't that easy last time around (and there's nothing "hateful" :o about mentioning historical fact, nor does one have to be a druggie ??? to disagree with the "blokes down the pub").

IMHO, I think the UK should stay in the EU. And that is the way that I intend to vote. I believe the benefits far outweigh the small number of so called disadvantages and problems.

Right wing conservatives are the group that want the UK to exit. They were never in favour of joining in the first place. They spout rubbish about immigration and ignore the facts that the UK has always had people from other countries moving here (long before WW2).

In any event, a lot of UK employers actually want young people from abroad to come here and work.

Mark

MY point of view as Spaniard living in UK is that there's a lot of misinformation and yes... some people are misinformed and this is going to be a scaremongering campaign on both sides, which I think it is a shame. Politics I think is called the game.

Will my situation change in the event the UK leaves the EU? I don't think so, given the amount of British people living in Spain, but you never know...

As far as I'm concerned I'm too busy paying taxes and helping the economy with my hard work to waste my time in politics when I don't have a say ;)

The point is, the U.K. Would still trade and continue to work with other countries, but not through or as part of the EU, the same way the rest of the world deals with other countries including the US. People who already work and live here won't be affected, but we would no longer be subjected to EU law, or their immigration policies. I don't trust the UK government, left to their own devices, they could prove dangerous for the UK and Europe, the best thing for everyone is to stay in, and together change Europe for the better, become a super power of countries, the envy of the world. But we won't ever get their if other European states continue to hate the Brits and look down their noses at us. That will just push us away, and is currently all we see in the media.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not going to get into the politics of it all (I don't discuss politics or religion), but I'd like to know where you get this "European states hate the Brits" idea? Is this something that the British press propagate? It definitely doesn't exist in reality. The only time anything negative is ever said about the Brits is when the football hooligans arrive, but the same negativity is expressed about hooligans from any country.

Regarding trade, yes, trade would of course continue, but the EU trade agreements would no longer stand, so the cost of anything coming from outside the UK would most likely go up. The UK would need to renegotiate every trade agreement that the EU had and the chances of the UK getting as good a deal is very low.

Bryce.

As a Brit I thought I'd just have a say... personally I just want to go and hide away from the news until this all goes away. In or out I don't really care, as its a debatable point if it matters whether its a UK government or the EU government who is making our lives worse. Yeah okay I can name a lot of the UK government that only 25% of people voted for, and I can't name any of the EU ones.


Intrinsically I'm all for open borders, free trade, but I don't see why it has to go any further. Why are we giving money to the EU and then arguing over what they give back???? Most EU countries have nothing in common. What does Italy have in common with Germany, or France Greece? Nothing. So the Euro currency without political integration is madness.


The bottom line is, and why most Brits feel aggrieved is that people from poorer countries are coming and claiming benefits. Isn't it just easy to say "Hey come, but you still get the benefits you'd get in your country of birth!". Plus also its tricky, as wanting out of Europe seems grubby and hateful, but it will always come down to what's in it for me.


How will I vote - I'm going to vote Out. And the main reason is the UK will have to sign up for bank bail-ins and TTP if we stay in. Democracy is a fake and empty concept but bail-ins (especially with the rush to a cashless society) and TTP where we hand control over to the corporations. Its already started here where a small yorkshire village that refused to allow a Starbucks to open on the high street, and with TTP that would be illegal. The world isn't all about money, its about living a life as best you can.

Quote from: Bryce on 12:32, 24 February 16
I'm not going to get into the politics of it all (I don't discuss politics or religion), but I'd like to know where you get this "European states hate the Brits" idea? Is this something that the British press propagate? It definitely doesn't exist in reality. The only time anything negative is ever said about the Brits is when the football hooligans arrive, but the same negativity is expressed about hooligans from any country.

Regarding trade, yes, trade would of course continue, but the EU trade agreements would no longer stand, so the cost of anything coming from outside the UK would most likely go up. The UK would need to renegotiate every trade agreement that the EU had and the chances of the UK getting as good a deal is very low.

Bryce.

Yep, comes from the media, and if you watch the debates on TV, live EU debates, the French and other nations on several occasions have blatantly tried to get a laugh out of belittling the UK, especially in regards to our defence capabilities, watch it on Youtube, it just makes everyone I know feel angry. It's a complete different picture in Germany and Romania, they love us, and we love them, but for some reason, the others can't stand us. In fact, I was in Amsterdam on a Stag doo, and this women in the restaurant said "You'll never be one of us, you're all a island race". I was shocked, and wasn't the only person who heard it. 


The other thing, if we did leave the EU, it wouldn't happen over night, there's talks of five years, enough time to negotiate, but Britain have more weight than lots of other countries, so shouldn't be an issue, well, that's what all the think tanks believe. Plus, it cost Britain 55 Million a day to be a member of the EU, and we sell arms to most countries around the world and Europe, in fact, I heard that Britain was the biggest supplier of arms, in the world.


If Britain goes, and I hope people don't see this as arrogance, but it'll be the equivalent of a Domino effect, the rest will slowly leave. That's why it's important that we sort any of this shit out together, stay and make the union stronger for everyone. But we can't have non-elected officials telling us what to do, that's not a democracy.


Unfortunately people are ignorant of what's going on in the EU, people are quick to judge, can be so cruel to others, the strength is needing others, not a weakness.


As things stand, we have no control of our borders, 75% of our law is made by the EU, our Supreme Court can be overruled, we're being told that we have to cut links with the common Wealth, and we have to pay a £55 million a day membership fee. 
 

I worry that without the eu just how spineless will our governments become.

Take the Google debacle.

The eu brings in rules and regulations that I doubt the uk govt would or be as strict as.
Any rules brought in would be in favour of the Eton old boys and business's but not poor slobs like me.

Quote from: seanb on 13:25, 24 February 16
I worry that without the eu just how spineless will our governments become.

Take the Google debacle.

The eu brings in rules and regulations that I doubt the uk govt would or be as strict as.
Any rules brought in would be in favour of the Eton old boys and business's but not poor slobs like me.

The truth is, the country is old, the infrastructure isn't capable, the NHS is crumbling because of numbers of people using it, try calling your doctors for an appointment the same day, it's unheard of now, people notice this shit, and by bringing in even more people, we're screwing over the services and people that are already trying to prop up our services. My sister is a nurse, and she said it's ridiculous, people waiting in beds in the hallways, sitting on the floor, it's crazy.


We're only a small island, why the fcuk do we think it would be a good idea to populate it with over 100 Million people, I mean c'mon, the maths don't lie, these are the sorts of statistics we're facing. Since 2009 the UK population has gone from 60 Million, up to 64,973,711 million, I mean c'mon, FFS! enough is enough.   

Actually the UK is the sixth biggest supplier of arms in the world. Third biggest in the EU.

The time to leave the EU is set at 2 years (Lisbon Treaty, Article 50 Rule 3) unless the other members agree to extend it, so all new trade agreements would have to be agreed within that time.

Not sure about the domino effect you speak of, I've seen no sign of any other country questioning their membership and I think most of the newer or smaller states would have bigger problems to leave than the UK.

Have you a link to that EU debate video? I suspect (as so common in these types of things), they may have handpicked the guests that make the biggest waves.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 13:33, 24 February 16

Not sure about the domino effect you speak of, I've seen no sign of any other country questioning their membership and I think most of the newer or smaller states would have bigger problems to leave than the UK.

Bryce.

So you and the other EU countries are happy to have non-elected officials telling you what to do? Is that even a democracy any more?

On the arms question, I think I might have meant, Britains biggest export in the world i.e. our number 1

I'll try and find the vids, but you can search for them, there's loads on the UK.

Quote from: ukmarkh on 13:38, 24 February 16

So you and the other EU countries are happy to have non-elected officials telling you what to do? Is that even a democracy any more?

On the arms question, I think I might have meant, Britains biggest export in the world i.e. our number 1

I'll try and find the vids, but you can search for them, there's loads on the UK.

As I said, I'm not going to get into the politics of it, only the economics, but yes, many see more advantages to being part of it than being outside of it.

Economically it would be a big disadvantage to be outside the EU for many including the UK. Take the automotive industry for example. Nissan has a plant in Sunderland that produces cars for the EU region and employs probably close to 7000 people directly and indirectly. A huge percentage of these vehicles are destined for sale outside the UK. If the UK left the EU, Nissan would have to pay import duty on the cars destined for mainland Europe, which they are unlikely to do. Their most likely solution would be to shrink the factory over time and move their production to their plant in Spain. Good for Spain, bad for England. And that's just one example, how much UK based production is destined for EU countries outside the UK? Even is only a small percentage of them shift production it would have a major effect on the employment situation in the UK.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 14:00, 24 February 16
As I said, I'm not going to get into the politics of it, only the economics, but yes, many see more advantages to being part of it than being outside of it.

Economically it would be a big disadvantage to be outside the EU for many including the UK. Take the automotive industry for example. Nissan has a plant in Sunderland that produces cars for the EU region and employs probably close to 7000 people directly and indirectly. A huge percentage of these vehicles are destined for sale outside the UK. If the UK left the EU, Nissan would have to pay import duty on the cars destined for mainland Europe, which they are unlikely to do. Their most likely solution would be to shrink the factory over time and move their production to their plant in Spain. Good for Spain, bad for England. And that's just one example, how much UK based production is destined for EU countries outside the UK? Even is only a small percentage of them shift production it would have a major effect on the employment situation in the UK.

Bryce.

There's no evidence to support that Nissan would do that, but I agree, it would seem like the common sense approach. But you didn't answer my question?


I don't believe Britain is this week nation that would suffer, in fact we would work direct with china and Japan, in fact all countries. It wouldn't be in any countries interest to severe relations with Britain.

Quote from: ukmarkh on 13:38, 24 February 16
So you and the other EU countries are happy to have non-elected officials telling you what to do? Is that even a democracy any more?

Which non-elected officials? Do you mean the EU Commission[1]? The EU Parliament[2]?

The EU Parliament has legislative power (the Commission doesn't), and you voted your EU MPs (last time in 2014).

1: List of European Commissioners by nationality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Commissioners_by_nationality#United_Kingdom)
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_European_Parliament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_European_Parliament,_2014%E2%80%9319#United_Kingdom)

Yes, of course there would be new agreements between the UK and many countries, Britain certainly isn't just going to sit there and do nothing, but their bargaining power would be reduced, so I don't think the deal would be as good. Like anything in economics, if I a small shop buys 1000 items from a supplier, they will pay a higher price than a chain of shops that orders 1 million items. That's why supermarkets are cheaper than corner shops and why bigger groups of countries get better deals.

Bryce.

Quote from: reidrac on 14:23, 24 February 16
Which non-elected officials? Do you mean the EU Commission[1]? The EU Parliament[2]?

The EU Parliament has legislative power (the Commission doesn't), and you voted your EU MPs (last time in 2014).

1: List of European Commissioners by nationality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Commissioners_by_nationality#United_Kingdom)
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_European_Parliament (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_European_Parliament,_2014%E2%80%9319#United_Kingdom)

European Commission, unelected by the people, they are the government of Europe!

Quote from: Bryce on 14:23, 24 February 16
Yes, of course there would be new agreements between the UK and many countries, Britain certainly isn't just going to sit there and do nothing, but their bargaining power would be reduced, so I don't think the deal would be as good. Like anything in economics, if I a small shop buys 1000 items from a supplier, they will pay a higher price than a chain of shops that orders 1 million items. That's why supermarkets are cheaper than corner shops and why bigger groups of countries get better deals.

Bryce.

But I argue that Britain isn't a small shop, Europe needs us, fifth richest economy. Like I've already mentioned, I want to stay, better together. But it's good I think to talk about these issues without slamming each other  ;)

Quote from: ukmarkh on 14:26, 24 February 16

European Commission, unelected by the people

The commissioners are appointed by the member states, the UK government put the UK commissioners there.

Thanks for clarifying your point.

Quote from: ukmarkh on 14:26, 24 February 16

European Commission, unelected by the people, they are the government of Europe!

A bit like the house of lords then? They aren't elected by the people and have legislative powers in the UK.

Yes, the UK isn't a corner shop, but they are only about 9% of the EU population. Yes, they are important for the EU, but not important enough that the EU would crumble without them.

Bryce.

@reidrac Oh c'mon, where are you from, so I know what party you support, everyone knows we're being governed by unelected bureaucrats. I certainly didn't knowingly vote them in.

Quote from: Bryce on 14:33, 24 February 16
A bit like the house of lords then? They aren't elected by the people and have legislative powers in the UK.

Yes, the UK isn't a corner shop, but they are only about 9% of the EU population. Yes, they are important for the EU, but not important enough that the EU would crumble without them.

Bryce.

That's silly talk, only 9% of the population means nothing, but look how much we make, trade and deal on a daily, monthly or yearly basis.

Quote from: ukmarkh on 14:14, 24 February 16

There's no evidence to support that Nissan would do that, but I agree, it would seem like the common sense approach. But you didn't answer my question?


I don't believe Britain is this week nation that would suffer, in fact we would work direct with china and Japan, in fact all countries. It wouldn't be in any countries interest to severe relations with Britain.

Speaking from outside point if view,  i think u.k lost if it go outside de ue. Many people buy in u.k over internet, because u.k dont have tax to the import. Ebay, amazon, zavy etc etc.

In the other hand uk traditionally is the base to the big international tecnological enterprises to europe, has sony computer entertaiment europe for example.

I don't think nissan go to spain, i think go to a east contry. We lost many enterprise as sony tv in barcelona factory  to these cheap countrys.

Quote from: dragon on 14:37, 24 February 16
Speaking from outside point if view,  i think u.k lost if it go outside de ue. Many people buy in u.k over internet, because u.k dont have tax to the import. Ebay, amazon, zavy etc etc.

In the other hand uk traditionally is the base to the big international tecnological enterprises to europe, has sony computer entertaiment europe for example.

I don't think nissan go to spain, i think go to a east contry. We lost many enterprise as sony tv in barcelona factory  to these cheap countrys.

I hate to say, but Spain is just about treading water, the country is on its arse, which is a shame, as it's one of the most beautiful countries in the world.

Quote from: ukmarkh on 14:34, 24 February 16
@reidrac Oh c'mon, where are you from, so I know what party you support, everyone knows we're being governed by unelected bureaucrats. I certainly didn't knowingly vote them in.

I don't have a side on this, is not my call.

Let me apologise, I shouldn't reply to you with links to the Wikipedia. It's just that people seem to repeat what they hear around and sometimes is not completely accurate. The details are important. The people in the commission were put there by the members of the EU, but people refer to them like they follow their own evil interests or something like that.

I'm out this thread.

Quote from: reidrac on 14:43, 24 February 16
I don't have a side on this, is not my call.

Let me apologise, I shouldn't reply to you with links to the Wikipedia. It's just that people seem to repeat what they hear around and sometimes is not completely accurate. The details are important. The people in the commission were put there by the members of the EU, but people refer to them like they follow their own evil interests or something like that.

I'm out this thread.

My point is, the laws are made by people that you can't vote for or remove. C'mon, how can you ignore this.

Quote from: reidrac on 14:43, 24 February 16
The details are important. The people in the commission were put there by the members of the EU,

Since details are important, it'd be equally interesting and important to examine the politics that got those people appointed to those positions. Hiding behind generalisations like "the members of the EU" is the all-too-often excuse for closet authoritarianism.

Quote from: ukmarkh on 14:51, 24 February 16

My point is, the laws [/size]are made by people that you can't vote for or remove. C'mon, how can you ignore this.

They propose initiatives and those commissioners come from the government you elected in your country so they're aligned with your country's interests (I hope).

The EU Parliament is the one that passes the laws, and that one is directly elected by the people.

You know, I think is pretty clear how it works, which is far different from your initial comment.

Anyway, not interested in this topic. I already put my 2 cents.

Quote from: reidrac on 14:56, 24 February 16
They propose initiatives and those commissioners come from the government you elected in your country so they're aligned with your country's interests (I hope).

The EU Parliament is the one that passes the laws, and that one is directly elected by the people.

You know, I think is pretty clear how it works, which is far different from your initial comment.

Anyway, not interested in this topic. I already put my 2 cents.

The reason we're having this debate is because they're not fcuking listening, they've become power mongers, that's why we're in the mess we're in FFS! lol

People, come down. On either side, if you can't be calm I'm locking the thread.

 I'm just stating that all is not as it seems, but people can't see it. It's like Europeans think this is just a British issue, what has happened here is worse than anyone recognises, what all of us have done is given away our democracy, but we didn't know, nobody told us, we've all being lied to, we've given everything away to the complexity of the European Union. As I mentioned earlier, 75% of laws that should come from Britain, are not made by the British government, or the British people, they're made by European commissioners. It's hard for people to accept or believe, but it has happened.



But lets stay, reform the EU as a collection of states, but take back the basics, like control of borders, Laws, keep ties with the Common Wealth and give our sovereign nations, their Supreme courts back. It should be a partnership, not a dictatorship!   

I think that any union that is being imposed rather than cultivated is sentenced to end in a catastrophe, more or less. Europe is not the Seven Kingdoms of China or the six (?) Shogunates of medieval Japan, to be united by force and wait a few centuries for the common spirit to evolve. It was a grave mistake to attempt a union other than an economic one.


And of course, it's all for the money - does anyone remember the doomed "constitution" they tried to impose? How much of it was devoted to "freedom" of trading and how much to the freedom of men?


And, of course (bis), anyone who thinks that the union was the result of people's will is forgetting how much money was spent in propaganda advertising (for the Maastricht treaty, for instance), money that came out of our own pockets, while the opposite side got shit-all...

Quote from: ukmarkh on 15:19, 24 February 16Europeans think this is just a British issue

No they don't, nor do they "hate" or "not want" any particular Member State (no matter how hard some governments seem to be working on bringing such sentiment upon their own countries).

Quotewhat all of us have done is given away our democracy, but we didn't know, nobody told us, we've all be[en]lied to, we've given everything away to the complexity of the European Union.

Are you saying what accession would mean completely slipped under the radar through decades of debate by parliament(s) and press incl. some of the most eminent legal scholars?
"An ever closer union" was in the 1957 Treaty of Rome. For Maastricht they wanted to drop it; IIRC the one insisting to keep these words was none other than John Major.

QuoteAs I mentioned earlier, 75% of laws that should come from Britain, are not made by the British government, or the British people, they're made by European commissioners.

They're proposed by them or by the Council comprised of our very own governments; an elected parliament has yet to adopt them (and the Member States often get some flexibility in their implementation).
Indirect representation and delegated authority should not be confounded with democratic deficit (which has seen some improvement of late).
Conferral, subsidiarity and proportionality are actually principles of Art. 5 TEU: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:115:0013:0045:en:PDF (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:115:0013:0045:en:PDF)
On the other hand there's no denying that national governments are tempted to "outsource" decisions they couldn't get adopted domestically (where they then whine about how e.g. "Brussels" imposed upon them what they approved themselves in Council and/or through "their" Commissioners).
Having a press (news media) that isn't quite the Fourth Estate of Burke's day anymore (in spite of its wider reach, if it ever was) does help those manoeuvres quite a lot.

Quote from: ukmarkh on 14:40, 24 February 16

I hate to say, but Spain is just about treading water, the country is on its arse, which is a shame, as it's one of the most beautiful countries in the world.

And i hate to say, if u.k go outside ue, gribaltar share the destiny of spain. Because their economy depend of her fiscal special status inside the ue, wich is a shame,as it's one of the beautiful u,k ultramar colony.

So be preparing to paid more tax to mantein  it(if uk abandon ue).

Reading this thread, it saddens me to think that a whole lot of UK citizens will vote without actually knowing what being in the EU means. Nor knowing how it works.

All laws in England and Wales are made by the British Parliament in Westminster (Scotland has it's own legal system so I will leave the Scots out). Each of which is debated. We even have a dedicated TV channel you can watch (how many in the UK even know the channel number?).

Yes, the European legislature passes European Law. But it is up to each member state to implement the appropriate law in their own country.

Oh, and how many people actually know how our own legislature system works? Hands up those who elected the privy council...

The population rise in England and Wales has always varied over time. Native Britain's now often have much smaller families than in the past, when a family often had four to six children. The problem in the UK regarding numbers is a lack of investment rather than a sudden rise in population. And of course, people will believe the rubbish about people coming here and immediately getting hundreds of pound of benefits a week. If you really think that is true, give up your job and try it yourself. BTW, anyone remember the TV series Bread?

And while we are on about misinformation, can someone please tell me all about the bad laws that so say come from the EU. I would like a list and a reason why they are bad. Only everyone who wants out always conveniently forgets all the good laws.

Hmm, borders. If we leave the EU, can I set up a border to separate my bit of England from the rest of the UK? Can I stop paying tax to central government? Why not force everyone to produce their passport when travelling between each town/city/county.

Back in the real world, we have never been able to properly police our border (and in recent years the government has reduced funding for the service). Why do you think life outside the EU will be any different?

Mark

4 to 6 children! That's nothing! In Ireland you're considered to be an only child until you have at least 11 siblings :D

Bryce.

Quote from: seanb on 23:11, 23 February 16people that don't live in the uk and therfore don't know what they are talking about.

...unless you are British or at least living here now you're only repeating what your media tells you and don't understand where we are coming from.

Saxony, Scandinavia, then Normandy since 1066? ;)
But seriously, whose generalisations are those? How much deeper than debates of the House and decades of British publications do other Europeans (many of whom spend significant time on "your" island & try to receive the BBC while they don't) have to dig ad fontes for you to concede more insight to them than "just parroting their press"? (but even spell like you do... ::) FYI "independent" national TV is so unpopular in parts of the Continent that their Licence had to be replaced by a borderline-unconstitutional "tax on non-homelessness" just to keep people paying for spin they refuse to watch...)

What does your comment even mean.
What does Normandy 1000 years ago have to do with someone living in lichtenstein today and their in depth knowledge on the British way of life, British sentiment and British politics?

It doesn't matter how much tv you watch unless you live in that country you only know what your tv tells you and I doubt people in the continent spend a substantial amount of time paying attention to British politics or researching what the average brit on the street thinks.

Even spending a few weeks here from time to time doesn't give you that much insight because the will and attitude of any nations people is complex and cannot be understood on a package holiday.

You know exactly what he means, it's exactly what I touched on earlier, but apparently it's all in my head.

Anyway, this just in:

http://news.sky.com/story/1648405/uk-net-migration-up-by-31000-ons-figures


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Please define what an "average bri" is. There is no such thing. An "average" height is just a number derived from the actual heights of a number of people added together, then divided by the total number of people. But the resulting figure does not mean that any significant number of those people are actually that "average" height.

People are rather complex. Most issues are complex. Life is complex. And so real politics is complex (as opposed to the "sound bites" and headlines).

Different generations have different views. People from different areas of life have different views. And of course people from different parts of the country have different views.

Further, as larger numbers of people travel more, including travel around the world, our views change over time.

Typically in UK wide general (national) elections, the pollsters (option poll companies) often get different result to what people actually vote for. Even though large numbers of people always vote for the same party every time. The outcome of which party has the largest number of MPs is mostly decided by a smaller number of so called "floating" voters.

Mark

On immigration, I don't think there is any need for any limits whatsoever. Further, I think the UK should send as many ships as possible to pick up as many of the people fleeing the war in Syria as we can. Why on earth should ordinary people suffer war in our so called modern world.

We need to stop blaming everyone and everything else, and instead actually invest in the people (training), in the infrastructure, in our own homes and in expanding public transport.

Mark

Well, this comment of mine may offend some so I'll delete it if need be, but @1024MAK (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1522) touched on something real with his last sentence. I would however, take it a step further: stop blaming everyone and everything else and realise that when you bomb, directly, indirectly or through coalitions, entire countries into smithereens you got no right to cry about the outcome.

Quote from: ukmarkh on 11:28, 25 February 16
You know exactly what he means, it's exactly what I touched on earlier, but apparently it's all in my head.

Anyway, this just in:

UK Net Migration Up By 31,000: ONS Figures (http://news.sky.com/story/1648405/uk-net-migration-up-by-31000-ons-figures)


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I have no idea what invaders from 1000 years ago has to do with politics of today.

Maybe I missed that conversation

Quote from: 1024MAK on 11:52, 25 February 16
On immigration, I don't think there is any need for any limits whatsoever. Further, I think the UK should send as many ships as possible to pick up as many of the people fleeing the war in Syria as we can. Why on earth should ordinary people suffer war in our so called modern world.

We need to stop blaming everyone and everything else, and instead actually invest in the people (training), in the infrastructure, in our own homes and in expanding public transport.

Mark

Sorry, you never mentioned where you're gonna get all the money to do this? Have you tried to book an appointment at the doctors recently...


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Quote from: 1024MAK on 11:52, 25 February 16
On immigration, I don't think there is any need for any limits whatsoever.
Mark

What a ridiculous comment. This is a small island, of course there needs to be limit.


I'm by no means against immigration but the country can only take so much.


Have you tried booking a doctors appointment recently? 4 week wait for an appointment at my surgery, green belt land is being built on left right and centre, the traffic on the roads is chaotic. This is all because of mass immigration.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 11:37, 25 February 16
Please define what an "average bri" is. There is no such thing. An "average" height is just a number derived from the actual heights of a number of people added together, then divided by the total number of people. But the resulting figure does not mean that any significant number of those people are actually that "average" height.

That reminds me of a certain Minister for Education, who claimed that "The majority of students in the country were above average" :D Maths obviously wasn't his strongest point.

@Dr Tiger Ninestein (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=201): Waiting lists for doctors aren't necessarily due to immigration, just a sign of an innefficient medical system. Ireland has the same issues and they have barely taken any immigrants, whereas Germany has taken massive amounts of immigrants and the waiting times in Germany haven't noticably changed.

Bryce.

Quote from: Gryzor on 12:16, 25 February 16
Well, this comment of mine may offend some so I'll delete it if need be, but @1024MAK (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1522) touched on something real with his last sentence. I would however, take it a step further: stop blaming everyone and everything else and realise that when you bomb, directly, indirectly or through coalitions, entire countries into smithereens you got no right to cry about the outcome.

Everyone has blood on their hands, even fellow Muslim countries, they've all got their fingers in the pie. The difference is, these rich Arab countries have all shut their doors on their own people. Why are they heading for Germany, Britain and Sweden, it's because the majority are economic migrants. Do you have any idea how many thousands of healthy young men, between 18 and 40, are getting on boats? How many war fleeing families can afford to pay extortionate rates of 10,000 Euros ahead, unfortunately, some do, but this is a massive minority, of which we sometimes see the unfortunate results.

There was a charity organisation 'The Human Relief Foundation' providing support in the Calais jungle camp to help migrants, aid was pulled, withdrawn after discovering the majority of people were economic migrants. The Human relief deputy found perfectly good clothing and food being dumped or burned, where 97% Percent were found to be adult men.


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Oh, I don't disagree with what you're saying; it's still not, however, an answer to my point.


(as for boats... yeah, mate, I live in Greece :D I have a pretty good understanding ;) )

The average brit on the street can't be summed up by what you read in papers or hear about on news reports.

The average brit has their own thoughts that may or may not be lumped in to whatever group the press, especially from abroad, use to talk about them and as such cannot be grouped so easily or are as cut and dry as people are told.

Its an expression not maths and people know that so pedantry doesn't help anyone.

Quote from: Bryce on 12:44, 25 February 16
That reminds me of a certain Minister for Education, who claimed that "The majority of students in the country were above average" :D Maths obviously wasn't his strongest point.

@Dr Tiger Ninestein (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=201): Waiting lists for doctors aren't necessarily due to immigration, just a sign of an innefficient medical system. Ireland has the same issues and they have barely taken any immigrants, whereas Germany has taken massive amounts of immigrants and the waiting times in Germany haven't noticably changed.

Bryce.

There's a massive shortage of nurses and doctors in the UK, pushed to breaking point, it takes time to train new doctors, in fact most student doctors don't become fully qualified until late into their thirties, and they make up a large percentage of staff.


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Quote from: ukmarkh on 12:36, 25 February 16
Sorry, you never mentioned where you're gonna get all the money to do this? Have you tried to book an appointment at the doctors recently...

Yes, and look at the real cause - our government. Currently they are p!ss!ng off the very doctors that we need. And the government keep messing the NHS about. Go and complain to your local MP, or write a letter to him/her.
At our local doctors, its 99% native Brits in the waiting room from what I can see.

If people come here and there is work, and they get a job. They earn money and pay tax on that money. Some of that tax then pays for the NHS. More people working means MORE money to pay for MORE improvements to the NHS. But only if the government increase the funding to the NHS. And at the moment, unemployment figures keep going down. And employment figures keep going up. So whats the problem?

A bigger problem is, as people live longer, the number of pensioners is increasing. The state pension is paid from money from current taxation. So we NEED young working people, otherwise there will be a lack of money in the future for YOUR state pension.

Mark 

Quote from: 1024MAK on 12:59, 25 February 16
Yes, and look at the real cause - our government. Currently they are p!ss!ng off the very doctors that we need. And the government keep messing the NHS about. Go and complain to your local MP, or write a letter to him/her.
At our local doctors, its 99% native Brits in the waiting room from what I can see.

If people come here and there is work, and they get a job. They earn money and pay tax on that money. Some of that tax then pays for the NHS. More people working means MORE money to pay for MORE improvements to the NHS. But only if the government increase the funding to the NHS. And at the moment, unemployment figures keep going down. And employment figures keep going up. So whats the problem?

A bigger problem is, as people live longer, the number of pensioners is increasing. The state pension is paid from money from current taxation. So we NEED young working people, otherwise there will be a lack of money in the future for YOUR state pension.

Mark

There's only a finite amount of jobs, and the infrastructure isn't ready for what's being suggested.Forget any of that, there certainly aren't enough houses, the government is having to pay a fortune to house people in bed and breakfast and guest houses for British families let alone people from abroad.


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Quote from: ukmarkh on 12:59, 25 February 16
Whatever Brice! There's a massive shortage of nurses and doctors in the UK, pushed to breaking point, it takes time to train new doctors, in fact most student doctors don't become fully qualified until late into their thirties, and they make up a large percentage of staff.


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Yes, I am well aware of that, but that isn't a new problem. I remember when I was living in the UK in the 80's and early 90's that the health system was messed up back then too, well before the immigrants were arriving. Blaiming the NHS problems on the immigrants is just scape-goating. There was a lack of doctors and nurses back then, what have the many "elected by the people governments" done to solve this problem (which is fully in their control, not influenced by EU decisions)?

Bryce.

Quote from: Dr Tiger Ninestein on 12:42, 25 February 16What a ridiculous comment. This is a small island, of course there needs to be limit.

So small, that I can walk or drive in the countryside for miles without seeing a house or another person. So small, that if you go looking hard enough, there are remains of long ago abandoned villages.

Quote from: Dr Tiger Ninestein on 12:42, 25 February 16I'm by no means against immigration but the country can only take so much.

Of course, but we are nowhere near any kind of practical problem at the moment. There may be some local difficulties in some areas (like lack of school places). But with a bit of effort, that can be sorted out.

Quote from: Dr Tiger Ninestein on 12:42, 25 February 16Have you tried booking a doctors appointment recently? 4 week wait for an appointment at my surgery

See my earlier post.

Quote from: Dr Tiger Ninestein on 12:42, 25 February 16green belt land is being built on left right and centre, the traffic on the roads is chaotic. This is all because of mass immigration.

What mass immigration? There has been no mass immigration. The problems you talk about have happened  / would have happened without any immigration anyway. The housing problems are partly down to very little local government house building since Thatcher gave people the right to buy. People travel more, but there has been a lack of investment in public transport - hence the roads fill up, as the cost of owning a car falls.

Mark

Posts being edited. Keep up like that and I'll be just deleting them.

Quote from: Bryce on 13:11, 25 February 16
Yes, I am well aware of that, but that isn't a new problem. I remember when I was living in the UK in the 80's and early 90's that the health system was messed up back then too, well before the immigrants were arriving. Blaiming the NHS problems on the immigrants is just scape-goating. There was a lack of doctors and nurses back then, what have the many "elected by the people governments" done to solve this problem (which is fully in their control, not influenced by EU decisions)?

Bryce.

I tell you what, let's just keep upping the population shall we, put more pressure on the NHS, roads and god knows what other services. The NHS currently has a massive problem with Obesity, and the illnesses that are a byproduct of it, it's not as black and white as you see it. There's many problems, a topic for another debate. Living in Britain in the 1980's is completely different to 2016!


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Very à propos:


Undecided about the EU referendum? Here are 10 pros and cons to a Brexit | The (http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/02/23/undecided-eu-referendum-10-pros-cons-brexit/)

Quote from: ukmarkh on 13:27, 25 February 16
I tell you what, let's just keep upping the population shall we, put more pressure on the NHS, roads and god knows what other services. The NHS currently has a massive problem with Obesity, and the illnesses that are a byproduct of it, it's not as black and white as you see it. There's many problems, a topic for another debate. Living in Britain in the 1980's is completely different to 2016!


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I'm not arguing that it's not a problem or that the NHS hasn't many other fires to put out. I was just pointing out that there are many problems (NHS is just one example), where the EU / immigration or whatever is being blaimed as the cause, rather than admitting and trying to fix the real problem. It seems like every time the UK government is faced with another problem that they have been ignoring for far too long, the answer is "the EU made us do it" or "it would all work fine if we weren't in the EU".

Bryce.

Well, according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the_United_Kingdom), foreign-born persons were 12% back in 2011. I guess there's been an increase, let's say 15%. For me that's undoubtedly too high. On the other hand does anyone really suggest that this 15% (or 17.6% on top of the UK-born population) is enough to strain the NHS (or any other system) to the point it is now? From what I've been reading for years (I lived there in 2002-2003, and they were saying the exact same things), definitely not.

There's no point me taking part in this debate anymore due to the over sensitive nature of moderation, several of my posts have been deleted or watered down. These unnecessary actions have taken away my appetite to continue the debate.


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Overview of the UK Population (PDF) (http://ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_422383.pdf)

Mark

Deleted - no. If by "watered down" you mean editing out pearls of wisdom like "I call 99% of your arguments bullshit" then yeah, guilty as charged.


You may find this "unnecessary" but as a moderator I see it as indispensable to have a calm, civilised and productive discussion. Your choice.

Quote from: Gryzor on 13:43, 25 February 16
Deleted - no. If by "watered down" you mean editing out pearls of wisdom like "I call 99% of your arguments bullshit" then yeah, guilty as charged.


You may find this "unnecessary" but as a moderator I see it as indispensable to have a calm, civilised and productive discussion. Your choice.

You're a liar, I didn't say that!


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Quote from: ukmarkh on 12:59, 25 February 16
There's a massive shortage of nurses and doctors in the UK, pushed to breaking point, it takes time to train new doctors, in fact most student doctors don't become fully qualified until late into their thirties, and they make up a large percentage of staff.

My brother is a GP, and for him it was more like 20's early 30's, but it depends exactly what kind of doctor you want to be and on luck, so it could be that long.

NHS staff are treated badly, there is no doubt there. It's an individual case, but my brother works 5 days a week and is on call for 3 evenings in the week and 1 day on the weekend. At times he has also been doing call out work for other surgeries/hospitals at the same time. The GP surgery partnership is losing money but as a newly qualified GP he has to invest in the partnership to keep his job, but it's like throwing money away. And he earns less than you think. And now they want to make him work weekends as normal days in the surgery too.

Quote from: Gryzor on 13:11, 25 February 16
Posts being edited. Keep up like that and I'll be just deleting them.

Well I'm bowing out.
I feel like people aren't reading what others are writing and jumping to points and areas the person they're replying too havent made or have no bearing on anything they've said.

Quote from: ukmarkh on 13:59, 25 February 16
You're a liar, I didn't say that!

Mate, will you calm down instead of snapping at every chance? Did I say it was you?..

Quote from: Gryzor on 14:34, 25 February 16

Mate, will you calm down instead of snapping at every chance? Did I say it was you?

It certainly felt like that's what you were insinuating! I will calm down... Sorry if I've offended anybody, I love you all long time, 5$


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Quote from: ukmarkh on 14:37, 25 February 16
It certainly felt like that's what you were insinuating! I will calm down... Sorry if I've offended anybody, I love you all long time, 5$

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Wow, where do I pick up my 5 dollars? :)

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 14:40, 25 February 16
Wow, where do I pick up my 5 dollars? :)

Bryce.

Next time we meet [emoji38]


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That reminds me of Ewan McTeagle's masterwork:

Can I have fifty pounds to mend the shed?
I'm right on my uppers.
I can pay you back when this postal order comes from Australia. Honestly.
Hope the bladder trouble's getting better.
Love, Ewan.


Love the Brits. They shouldn't leave.

"I will gladly pay you tuesday for a hamburger today"...

Bryce.

I've read what the majority of the latest polls says, but what do you british CPC-guys out there expect for 23 June?

I've already cast my vote but I know its wasted because even though I voted to leave, the result will either be rigged in favour of remain, or the government will renege on it. Just like what happened with the Scottish vote. I still believe that was fixed.

What? They're fixing things in the EU?

[attachimg=1]

Quote from: EgoTrip on 13:16, 07 June 16
I've already cast my vote but I know its wasted because even though I voted to leave, the result will either be rigged in favour of remain, or the government will renege on it. Just like what happened with the Scottish vote. I still believe that was fixed.

So you have absolutely no trust in your Government... and then you vote to give them even more power?

Strange logic.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 13:20, 07 June 16
So you have absolutely no trust in your Government... and then you vote to give them even more power?

Strange logic.

Bryce.

You can look at it that way. But the way I see it, is if you vote to remain, you are voting to waive democracy. I can vote for British politicians, I can vote for MEP's. But I cannot, and never will be able to vote for those with actual power, and no accountability in the EU dictatorship. As things are everything is decided by the EU and everything overrides soverign law. This is unacceptable to me.

I don't trust ANYONE in politics, EU or British. They are all as bad and corrupt as each other. But at least I will have the opportunity (even if I am in the minority) to choose in the UK.

Guys, with all respect, you should stop discussing thing like this here. Else you may put your job / live in danger. Just saying.

Quote from: TFM on 17:38, 07 June 16
Guys, with all respect, you should stop discussing thing like this here. Else you may put your job / live in danger. Just saying.

I'm not sure Britain has quite reached the point of totalitarian dictatorship just yet....

Personally I'd rather remain, the EU is rather more democratic than the political system here. However if the vote goes t'other way, I've long considered a move to Dublin anyway, it's my favourite place in the world, so maybe it's time to look into it properly.

See you there for a pint of Guinness Andy! :)

Bryce.

There is misleading information from both sides. And some people say they want some facts. But instead they are fed projections of the future.

The problem is, no one knows what will happen if the UK leaves. As the resulting trade and other arrangements will have to be negotiated.

Now, if we leave, the change-over itself could cause many, many problems....

But (assuming we leave) when we have left, and we find ourselves worst off, how will we do in trying to rejoin? That is something I have no information on. And I think the UK may find rejoining would be on less favourable terms than we are now.

It also amuses me that some of the people who want to leave come out and say we did better / were okay before we joined. I think they need to go and read some history books. We (along with many other countries) suffered greatly during and after the Second World War. The British Empire (what was left of it) was in a poor state. And over the following years, nearly all the countries left in it became independent.

Since then the Royal Navy has shrunk to a small size and we no longer have much of a commercial fleet. We are still a powerful country, but the world is a completely different place. To compare before we joined with now is silly IMHO.

Also, the British press (so called newspapers) is obsessed with knocking the EU. But strangely when the EU does something than benefits the people in this country (and there are lots to benefits) it gets a lot less coverage.

And why would we want to leave when there are many countries that would like to join?

But the final thing that sways me to vote to remain is this: look at the main politicians pushing it. I mean, what good have any of them ever done. I won't list any names. But when some of them have had a government office, they have just made things worse. So no way am I ever going to back something pushed by them.

Mark

According to the treaty, rejoining is possible, however the country would have to fullfil all the requirements like any other country wishing to join. I doubt the UK would be able to fullfil these if things went bad after they left.
Regarding trade agreements. The politicians are trying to suggest that they could make a few calls and set up new agreements within months. In reality most trade agreements have needed more than 10 years of negotiation before an agreement is signed. Also any agreement they make will be on worse terms than the agreements the UK enjoys today as part of the EU.

Bryce.

Just so bored with it now. If you have an opinion to remain or leave... can I just point out the only true piece of fact you'll actually hear in this whole debate. THE PERSON YOU'RE TELLING DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOUR OPINION!

Well, thousands of people trying to register (or who did not know they were already registered) crashed the government web site due to the level of traffic. So the government passed some emergency legislation to extend the registration period for another 48 hours. So some are presumably still making their minds up...

Mark

Quote from: 1024MAK on 13:37, 09 June 16
Well, thousands of people trying to register (or who did not know they were already registered) crashed the government web site due to the level of traffic. So the government passed some emergency legislation to extend the registration period for another 48 hours. So some are presumably still making their minds up...

Mark

Well there are a few suggestions that a certain facebook group may have caused this high traffic load deliberately. TBH if you leave registering up to the last hour of the deadline you don't have much to complain about if you don't get to vote.
Personally I just want to avoid the fear and lies both sides are peddling for the next few weeks and get it over with one way or another. 

Quote from: Bryce on 12:48, 09 June 16
According to the treaty, rejoining is possible, however the country would have to fullfil all the requirements like any other country wishing to join.

Correct; that said, the EU *has* looked the other way while potential new members have not met the criteria (even Germany), so...

QuoteRegarding trade agreements. The politicians are trying to suggest that they could make a few calls and set up new agreements within months. In reality most trade agreements have needed more than 10 years of negotiation before an agreement is signed. Also any agreement they make will be on worse terms than the agreements the UK enjoys today as part of the EU.

No idea about whether the current agreements are in favour of the UK and whether new ones would be worse, really. And indeed it would take much more than picking up the phone and arranging a new one, but certainly it wouldn't take as long as it takes the EU which is a bureaucratic behemoth of the first order.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 12:41, 09 June 16
The problem is, no one knows what will happen if the UK leaves.

Actually, quite a few things are known, whether the UK leaves or not. It's the composition of those things into coherent predictions that's difficult.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 12:41, 09 June 16
Now, if we leave, the change-over itself could cause many, many problems....

Not an argument, in my opinion; that was also a counter-argument *against* entering the EU - "but why, if we join it'll be hard to get out". The point is whether it's better to face a shock and get on with your life or continue down the same path.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 12:41, 09 June 16And I think the UK may find rejoining would be on less favourable terms than we are now.

I don't think so; the UK has enough pull. It'd be different if it was Greece, say.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 12:41, 09 June 16We (along with many other countries) suffered greatly during and after the Second World War.

Actually, the period following WWII, tough times notwithstanding, was a period of boom for many of the western countries; partly because of the reconstruction effort in economic terms, partly because of changing mindsets.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 12:41, 09 June 16
The British Empire (what was left of it) was in a poor state. And over the following years, nearly all the countries left in it became independent.

I don't get this line of argument, honestly; would the EU give the colonies ("countries"? :D ) back?

Quote from: 1024MAK on 12:41, 09 June 16To compare before we joined with now is silly IMHO.

I'm really not familiar with the public discourse in the UK, but you can't really compare anything without encountering differences; it'll be either against the past or against similar, but not identical situations in other countries.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 12:41, 09 June 16
Also, the British press (so called newspapers) is obsessed with knocking the EU. But strangely when the EU does something than benefits the people in this country (and there are lots to benefits) it gets a lot less coverage.

As an outsider who gets his morning briefings both from alternative sources and mainstream press, I can say that this happens on both ends of the spectrum. Indeed the benefits are not touted as EU-originating (because obviously the politicians will want to take as much credit as possible), but I see tremendous scaremongering from the EU-friendly press, too.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 12:41, 09 June 16
And why would we want to leave when there are many countries that would like to join?

In all my post I'm trying not to take position but offer a contrasting opinion just for the sake of it, but come on, is that an argument? :D Especially when there are so many in those countries who say "why should we join while there are countries in the EU who want to get out?"

Quote from: 1024MAK on 12:41, 09 June 16
But the final thing that sways me to vote to remain is this: look at the main politicians pushing it.

I won't offer any argument against this, because come on, you see what it's going to be easily :D


Again, not taking positions here. I don't have an opinion on the matter; but I'm trying to see things in a balanced way.

By this:

QuoteBut the final thing that sways me to vote to remain is this: look at the main politicians pushing it.

I mean the politicians that want people to vote to leave. Let's just say I would never vote for them anyway, even before the in/out debate started because I do not agree with most of their ideas and viewpoints.

Mark

Welcome back outside again Britain! Norway started to feel lonely in EFTA/EØS!

Well, since this is an extremely hot topic now, particularly here in UK, I strongly advise everybody to be very tactful if you want the thread to remain open.

Quote from: ||C|-|E|| on 16:41, 24 June 16
Well, since this is an extremely hot topic now, particularly here in UK, I strongly advise everybody to be very tactful if you want the thread to remain open.

Maybe better close it. Why the heck to we need politics in a computer forum?!!

As long as the debate is reasonable, I see no harm in it.

Or should I have said, because it's fun tempting others to get excited and then see them overreact and get themselves into trouble  :P :laugh:

Anyway, the vote is in, be it good or bad for the UK or indeed Europe.

Mark

ME thinks this is a good time to switch forum language to the most spoken one in EU.

Ab sofort Deutsch  :P

Heheh I liked this last one :D


I don't see much need to lock the thread, as long -of course- as people behave. even then I may just delete the relevan posts...

Well well well... I hate that media would tell "they leave europe" (continent, historical group of cultures, greek legend)... they juste leave "european union" [I am editing this because it is completely out of context, as I said, avoid that kind of judgment/words in here. It is not the place and not respectful either]

As if Swisstzerland and Norway were in Asia and not europe... lol... :laugh:

QuoteME thinks this is a good time to switch forum language to the most spoken one in EU.

Polish ?

Quote from: SRS on 17:04, 24 June 16
ME thinks this is a good time to switch forum language to the most spoken one in EU.

Ab sofort Deutsch  :P

Ich bin dafür!  :D

Wir wollen unsere alter Kaiser Wilhelm wieder haben!  ;D


Mein Oma used to sing that as a joke, hehe!

Nope, not Polish. Poland has rougly 40 million while Germany has around 80 million inhabitants, plus Austria speaks German that makes another 8 million.

France with 66 million would be at a good second place. But as the French forum here suggests most prefer their clandestine French forums. I might just learn a bit more French now ...

And let's not forget Italy (60 million) and Spain (~ 47 million).

So:
German
French
Italian
Spanish
Polish
...
...

Quote from: SOS on 20:13, 24 June 16
Ich bin dafür!  :D

Aber klar doch! Los, los, umstellen!  ;D ;) :)

Hmmmm


Whats the EU ??


Ray

Quote from: Audronic on 23:59, 24 June 16
Hmmmm

Whats the EU ??

Ray

Electromagnetic Uncoupling?

Ray, that would be the European Union, now not so united...

As I said before, I have no clear opinion (and hence, I wouldn't call it an opinion) on whether an exit or a stay in the EU would be better for the UK, at least in the short and medium term.


However I was surprised by the arguments used and the general climate around the whole thing. I thought the Brits were calmer and cooler than that. And the whole thing was so skewed that, if you listened to each side you would think that 52% of the Brits are xenophobic, old people, while the other 48% are wealthy pricks and/or traitors. Like the 52% voted for Farage and the other 48% voted to give all the money to the City through the ECT or something while they go out to hunt foxes.


Such polarisation is not unusual, of course (and unfortunately so). However I was even more surprised by the stance of the Remain supporters after the results came out. It's like they are *glad* bad things are happening, and they keep spewing interpretations of democracy like 'older people should not vote' (because that's what the argument about the age scaling amounts to). What's more, perfectly sane and knowledgeable people fell into a pattern where they would, yesterday, lament about things going wrong but whistling indifferently when they rebounded; spread rumours like wildfire but refuse to retract when proved wrong. And the silliest I've seen, going on and on about how the UK became poor because the GBP fell, as if that's how the size of an economy is measured, every minute or every single day, or as if nominal measures like being "the x largest economy in the world" means anything (hint: in GDP/capita and PPP-adjusted lists put the UK around #25 I think, and even that measure is problematic).


Again, as a phenomenon it's not new, of course, and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't mention that the same doesn't happen in my country. But I *was* expecting something better this time around, especially from people I know and respect and consider serious and informed.


I'd say: calm down, people. The sun is not going to go black. Yes, there will be problems, but there will also be opportunities. Do your best to make the most of them. After all, whether the coming future works out or not has nothing to do with being in the EU or not, but everything to do with how those who govern use their power and in what ends. You are still a powerful country, so it's up to you to make it work either way.[nb]And when the EU truly collapses, you can stay safe, pointing fingers at us and drinking tea under your cloudy weather[/nb]

Quote from: Gryzor on 07:48, 25 June 16
As I said before, I have no clear opinion (and hence, I wouldn't call it an opinion) on whether an exit or a stay in the EU would be better for the UK, at least in the short and medium term.


However I was surprised by the arguments used and the general climate around the whole thing. I thought the Brits were calmer and cooler than that. And the whole thing was so skewed that, if you listened to each side you would think that 52% of the Brits are xenophobic, old people, while the other 48% are wealthy pricks and/or traitors. Like the 52% voted for Farange and the other 48% voted to give all the money to the City through the ECT or something while they go out to hunt foxes.


Such polarisation is not unusual, of course (and unfortunately so). However I was even more surprised by the stance of the Remain supporters after the results came out. It's like they are *glad* bad things are happening, and they keep spewing interpretations of democracy like 'older people should not vote' (because that's what the argument about the age scaling amounts to). What's more, perfectly sane and knowledgeable people fell into a pattern where they would, yesterday, lament about things going wrong but whistling indifferently when they rebounded; spread rumours like wildfire but refuse to retract when proved wrong. And the silliest I've seen, going on and on about how the UK became poor because the GBP fell, as if that's how the size of an economy is measured, every minute or every single day, or as if nominal measures like being "the x largest economy in the world" means anything (hint: in GDP/capita and PPP-adjusted lists put the UK around #25 I think, and even that measure is problematic).


Again, as a phenomenon it's not new, of course, and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't mention that the same doesn't happen in my country. But I *was* expecting something better this time around, especially from people I know and respect and consider serious and informed.


I'd say: calm down, people. The sun is not going to go black. Yes, there will be problems, but there will also be opportunities. Do your best to make the most of them. After all, whether the coming future works out or not has nothing to do with being in the EU or not, but everything to do with how those who govern use their power and in what ends. You are still a powerful country, so it's up to you to make it work either way.[nb]And when the EU truly collapses, you can stay safe, pointing fingers at us and drinking tea under your cloudy weather[/nb]

Very well said.

@Gryzor (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1) now your beginning to see the UK's true colours. This is normal behaviour.

There are cunts on both sides of the fence. The only reason I voted leave was because I believe in the principles of democracy and accountability, which there is little of in EU. Sure there are racists and xenophobes who voted leave, just as there are who voted remain.

I despise Farage and what he stands for. I am all for integration, but not the cost of freedoms and democracy. Immigration is a great thing when done right and not abused. It has greatly enriched British culture, but at the same time the abuse of it (by both "bad" immigrants, and those who exploit immigrants for profit) is destroying us.

Remain shot itself in the foot and could have comfortably won if they used intelligence, honesty and integrity. Not that leave were much better, but they were the lesser of the evils. It speaks volumes for the campaigners, the EU, and the UK people how the entire thing went. The negativity and bullying, and focus on money like its all that matters, which is the Tory way, alienated people and I can bet many voted to leave purely because of the tactics used, as a protest.

Then the Tory cunts who triggered all this running off like cowards when the going got tough was the icing on the cake. But at least that slimey piece of shit Cameron is going. I'm scared of Boris though.

@robcfg (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4)


Sorry it was meant to be a Joke, as we don't have access to it down here (Australia).
Just trying to Lighten up the discussion.


Ray

Good points there, although do try to keep bad words at a minimum :D

Quote from: EgoTrip on 09:07, 25 June 16
Remain shot itself in the foot and could have comfortably won if they used intelligence, honesty and integrity. Not that leave were much better,

Yeah, that was a fun part of the campaigning for someone like me, standing on the outside. I mean, I knew enough to judge some of the faces and bigotry on the Leave campaign side, but then I was looking at comments from Remain-ers about them and I was thinking, come on! Are you fucking kidding me? Have you looked at "your" guys lately?

Quote from: EgoTrip on 09:07, 25 June 16
I'm scared of Boris though.

For various reasons (and again, NOT being very familiar) I don't think you should - as if he's any worse than, say, Cameron (we're just used to serious-looking politicians) or as if, when and if he gets in power, he'll be able to continue being that crazy...


Oh, speaking of crazy, a couple of more silly examples of what I heard yesterday:


-BoE ready to support the markets with GBPxxx billions: "that's xxxx thousand pounds for each of us!" - as if suddenly BoE decided to just hand over those billions to someone. Not how things work, man, not how things work.
-stock exchange goes down? "a huge chunk of our wealth just went into flames!". Dear gods.

Quote from: Audronic on 09:47, 25 June 16
@robcfg (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4)
Sorry it was meant to be a Joke, as we don't have access to it down here (Australia).
Just trying to Lighten up the discussion.

You got the Eurovision, that's more than enough, mate.

@Gryzor (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1)


Hmmmm Yes !
It's probable a good example. :picard2:


Ray

Quote from: Gryzor on 09:55, 25 June 16
 


You got the Eurovision, that's more than enough, mate.

Speaking about that(eurovison). U.k permanecy should not be affected by the brexit. Because it not depend from ue. The only way u.k can abandon eurovision is the bbc drop the uer. So ironically u.k continue mainteing the festival with spain,germany,france and italy.

In the other hand have curiosty about the future of sony computer entertaiment europe, that distributed to all europe from london. Where is located playstation network to.

Indeed, many organisations/events/whatever won't be affected because they're not part of the EU but rather of other European organisations/etc. Other organisations, of course, will have to relocate probably - all those EU organisations (like EMA - the European Medicine Association- I was discussing yesterday) whose seat is in the UK would have to go somewhere else, most likely.


As for SCEE, well, what would be the issue? They'd do it from Holland or Spain, probably (or, who knows, even Greece) where they have major logistics infrastructure...

Quote from: Gryzor on 07:48, 25 June 16
As I said before, I have no clear opinion (and hence, I wouldn't call it an opinion) on whether an exit or a stay in the EU would be better for the UK, at least in the short and medium term.


However I was surprised by the arguments used and the general climate around the whole thing. I thought the Brits were calmer and cooler than that. And the whole thing was so skewed that, if you listened to each side you would think that 52% of the Brits are xenophobic, old people, while the other 48% are wealthy pricks and/or traitors. Like the 52% voted for Farage and the other 48% voted to give all the money to the City through the ECT or something while they go out to hunt foxes.


Such polarisation is not unusual, of course (and unfortunately so). However I was even more surprised by the stance of the Remain supporters after the results came out. It's like they are *glad* bad things are happening, and they keep spewing interpretations of democracy like 'older people should not vote' (because that's what the argument about the age scaling amounts to). What's more, perfectly sane and knowledgeable people fell into a pattern where they would, yesterday, lament about things going wrong but whistling indifferently when they rebounded; spread rumours like wildfire but refuse to retract when proved wrong. And the silliest I've seen, going on and on about how the UK became poor because the GBP fell, as if that's how the size of an economy is measured, every minute or every single day, or as if nominal measures like being "the x largest economy in the world" means anything (hint: in GDP/capita and PPP-adjusted lists put the UK around #25 I think, and even that measure is problematic).


Again, as a phenomenon it's not new, of course, and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't mention that the same doesn't happen in my country. But I *was* expecting something better this time around, especially from people I know and respect and consider serious and informed.


I'd say: calm down, people. The sun is not going to go black. Yes, there will be problems, but there will also be opportunities. Do your best to make the most of them. After all, whether the coming future works out or not has nothing to do with being in the EU or not, but everything to do with how those who govern use their power and in what ends. You are still a powerful country, so it's up to you to make it work either way.[nb]And when the EU truly collapses, you can stay safe, pointing fingers at us and drinking tea under your cloudy weather[/nb]

What you're seeing is the result of a lot of confused and scared people who feel the country has no clear leadership. Referenda are one of the least democratic methods of making decisions, subject to mob rule and putting people in a position they don't feel comfortable with. They are all too often (and particularly with Brexit) a way for a government without conviction to scapegoat a choice on the public.

Britain, as it stands, has always been one of the least democratic nations in Europe and Brexit has only made that truer. If Scotland and Ireland break from the union as a result, which seems highly likely, we'll effectively live in a one party country with no governmental oversight. It's a chilling possibility.

I think there were a number of factors at play in the EU referendum.
First, I don't think that many voters actually understand what the EU is, or how it works in any detail. I say that, because some of the people voicing off talk about the EU being undemocratic. But think the British Parliamentary system is fine.

On another forum, a member was taking my reasons for remaining (posted in reply to someone else) and continuing to argue his case for leaving (keep in mind the thread was only opened after the result of the referendum was known). So I asked him if he knew who his MEP was and had he met or talked to him/her. Strangely he did not reply with any details.

Second, immigration, or rather the fear of it is a factor. How big is unclear, because as soon as you mention it, a lot of "leavers" claim that's not why they are for leaving, and then claim that it is the remain camp that are being racist! But plenty of people interviewed by the media give this as a reason and the UKIP were using propaganda around this issue.

Third, some no doubt used it as a protest vote, either against David Cameron / the government or against the establishment/ big business/ the rich etc.

Fourth, some in the political left have always been against the EU, seeing it as a right wing / big business friendly organisation that takes power away and uses said power to promote right wing / big business interests. Including blaming the EU for the privatisation of the U.K. railways, energy companies and a whole lot of other things that previous conservative govenments did.

Then there is the money. "Look at how much money we send to Brussels". Of course, the money that the EU spends in the U.K. was ignored by the leave campaign. Instead they made spending pledges on what they could spend the money on. Some of which they now say they were wrong about, so the NHS will not get millions more.

And then there are actually some who think that the UK is just as powerful now, as we were before the Second World War. And that we are being held back by being in the EU.

I voted to remain. I agree, both sides made a right mess of the campaign. Very little was said about what the EU is, or how it works. Even less about the good things it does / has done.

Some things leave me thinking what on earth, like what does 'we've got our country back now" even mean?

Oh, and the market / currency fluctuations do have an effect. Before the vote, I waited until the exchange rate between the USD and GBP was better before buying a product priced in USD. If I am doing this, how many others are.

Yes, the markets recover some of their value. But who knows what will happen in the future. The uncertainty alone will cause some people and some companies to wait and see. That is not good for anyone.

Mark

Quote from: andycadley on 10:31, 25 June 16Referenda are one of the least democratic methods of making decisions,

Hm? Where does that come from? When did democracy through proxy become more real than direct democracy?


Government was introduced as a means to bypass some problems, the biggest of which being that with population rising it was not easy to hold votes on everything. But having a government, of course, creates its own problems, not the least of which being governments doing the exact opposite of what they were voted in for.


But regardless, what you say makes no sense -it's a contradiction in words. "Democracy" means "the power of the people" (well, a bit more complicated than that but anyhow). Not "power of the people through someone else".

Quote from: andycadley on 10:31, 25 June 16subject to mob rule and putting people in a position they don't feel comfortable with.

This makes more sense. It's elitist at best, but it makes sense. But, who said that democracy is an easy thing? Seriously, we're talking about the best government system that we can think of (...) and you're worrying about "not feeling comfortable" with taking decisions? No wonder it's subject to mob rule!


So what's the solution to it - take the power of decision away from the people and give it to very specific centres of power, or maybe educate the 'mob' and make them participate more?


I was having this discussion with an English man a few days ago (he was kind enough to send me lots of 3" disks and manuals for free :) ), and I told him what 'idiot' originally means: he who does not participate in the common things. Whether by decision or through ignorance, it doesn't matter.

QuoteThey are all too often (and particularly with Brexit) a way for a government without conviction to scapegoat a choice on the public.

We had the same -incomprehensible, IMO- argument here in Greece, too. If anyone feels scapegoated for voting for chrissakes, then let's all have a lobotomy and live in a dictatorship after all.

Quote from: andycadley on 10:31, 25 June 16Britain, as it stands, has always been one of the least democratic nations in Europe and Brexit has only made that truer. If Scotland and Ireland break from the union as a result, which seems highly likely, we'll effectively live in a one party country with no governmental oversight. It's a chilling possibility.

How will Scotland and Ireland breaking away be an un-democratic thing? A sad development in some ways, a normal continuation of the decomposition of the British Empire in others, perhaps bad for the English economy, but I don't get the connection...

Quote from: 1024MAK on 10:43, 25 June 16
First, I don't think that many voters actually understand what the EU is, or how it works in any detail.

Completely agree; but that's part of the problem, too. Not only the lack of education, but also the fact that the EU is a hellhole of opaque bureaucracy.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 10:43, 25 June 16
I say that, because some of the people voicing off talk about the EU being undemocratic. But think the British Parliamentary system is fine.

Couldn't agree more, that's why I say that the most important issue is not whether in or out, but what you do after that -who does it and how, and what kind of oversight you have.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 10:43, 25 June 16But plenty of people interviewed by the media give this as a reason and the UKIP were using propaganda around this issue.

As soon as I hear "the media" I stop paying attention :D

Quote from: 1024MAK on 10:43, 25 June 16
Then there is the money. "Look at how much money we send to Brussels".

Well here's the thing, though - the UK (and the other strong -or 'strong'- economies) of the EU are not supposed to have balanced flows or net inflows. A unified monetary policy means there must be funds transfers from some regions to the others. Supposedly, by doing that the common returns are bigger and everyone wins. Then again the UK was not in the monetary union so it gets a bit more complicated than that, and there my knowledge stops.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 10:43, 25 June 16
Of course, the money that the EU spends in the U.K. was ignored by the leave campaign. Instead they made spending pledges on what they could spend the money on. Some of which they now say they were wrong about, so the NHS will not get millions more.

Not sure about that. I mean, of course I'm not nearly as familiar as you are with what Farage said, but all I saw (repeatedly) was that "we spend xxx which could go to the NHS". That's a far cry from promising to spend it there (and how? he's not in government), even if you step outside polit-speak. A stretch, if you ask me, but of course I may well be lacking proper info.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 10:43, 25 June 16
And then there are actually some who think that the UK is just as powerful now, as we were before the Second World War. And that we are being held back by being in the EU.

Those are two separate points - maybe the UK is not as powerful, but it could be if it was outside the EU. I disagree with that, though - UK's 'power' problems lie elsewhere IMHO.

Quote from: 1024MAK on 10:43, 25 June 16
Oh, and the market / currency fluctuations do have an effect. Before the vote, I waited until the exchange rate between the USD and GBP was better before buying a product priced in USD. If I am doing this, how many others are.
Yes, the markets recover some of their value. But who knows what will happen in the future. The uncertainty alone will cause some people and some companies to wait and see. That is not good for anyone.

Oh, of course fluctuations do have an effect. I wasn't referring to that; of course a weak sterling will mean that your next XBOX will be more expensive, but equally surely it means that your products will sell more easily, and now we're getting deep enough. And undoubtedly the uncertainty is a factor.
But proclaiming doomsday based on a tiny piece of very, very short-term info is... well, lots of things, none of them good.

I've never cared much about politics, I find the subject quite boring. However, I care about science and I can tell you guys that for us, scientists working in UK, and for the future of science in here, this has probably been quite a dubious decision. It turns out that, for instance, my particular institute (no name, sorry) is a very prestigious public organization where most of the people (including bosses) are not a UK citizens (probably 95%). However, we all agree to work for one of the scientific flagships of the nation giving all the credit to the institute and UK (as is stated in our contract). Of course, in many cases european funding is used. This has been a big blow for the scientific community and the immediate impact and consequences were suffered as soon as yesterday, although I am afraid that I cannot say much more. Of course the vast majority of the voters are disconnected from this and they do not know or they do not care, it is OK, it happens in every country.

A lot of people may not know or care. I don't pretend to know any details, but I was aware that there was close cooperation between EU member states in various science areas. From medical science to space science.
It does not surprise me that this is under threat.

There will be a lot of fallout in many areas  :-[

Mark

Looks like Britain was voting for MORE than just leaving the EU!

(http://www.snopes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/fox-news-brexit-UN.jpg)

How surprising for the USofA to get world-news wrong! They're normally so on-the-ball with this kinda stuff!
I wonder how many USA-ians even know what the EU is? Or what EU stands for?

(EDIT: On a positive note; LOOK! Gold is up 62.50! -yay-)

Quote from: Gryzor on 10:44, 25 June 16
Government was introduced as a means to bypass some problems, the biggest of which being that with population rising it was not easy to hold votes on everything. But having a government, of course, creates its own problems, not the least of which being governments doing the exact opposite of what they were voted in for.

No. Governments exist because representative democracy is fairer than mob rule. The aim is always to have people in place, who should be experts in the areas they are negotiating, who can look at everything - including the will of the people - and then do what is best, even if that goes against what the majority might want. Without that separation minorities will always suffer, emotions will always override reasoned argument and no decision can ever be decided on detailed analysis of an overall situation because the "man in the street" doesn't have the time or inclination to ruminate over every option.

Quote from: Gryzor on 10:44, 25 June 16
So what's the solution to it - take the power of decision away from the people and give it to very specific centres of power, or maybe educate the 'mob' and make them participate more?

There's no ideal solution. Representative democracy is the best anyone has come up with so far. Ideally the process of choosing a representative needs to be as "fair" as possible and ensure that the government constitutes a suitably diverse set of opinions. UK "democracy" is very, very far from that ideal.

Quote from: Gryzor on 10:44, 25 June 16
We had the same -incomprehensible, IMO- argument here in Greece, too. If anyone feels scapegoated for voting for chrissakes, then let's all have a lobotomy and live in a dictatorship after all.

It's because it is a "cover your ass" move. If it all goes horribly wrong, the government of the day just trots out the "not our fault, it was the will of the people" excuse. Conveniently leaving aside that the people made their choice based on the skewed "facts" that were being handed out (regardless of which side they were from)

Quote from: Gryzor on 10:44, 25 June 16
How will Scotland and Ireland breaking away be an un-democratic thing? A sad development in some ways, a normal continuation of the decomposition of the British Empire in others, perhaps bad for the English economy, but I don't get the connection...

Because the UK political system is horribly broken.

It'll be great for Scotland and Ireland, but leave England in a place where there is only one party who can ever be elected, with no credible opposition. The first past the post system, coupled with carefully manipulated boundaries means that it's basically impossible to have a non-Tory government in this country without the staunch Labour support in Scotland (as evidenced by the mass SNP swing last time). If they leave, the last few places where people's votes actually count for anything won't be enough to provide enough swing to oust the government. Remember under the UK system not all votes are equal and in many constituencies voting for an "alternative" has basically no effect, the voices of people who object are simply ignored.

Quote from: SuTeKH/Epyteor on 12:48, 25 June 16I wonder how many USA-ians even know what the EU is? Or what EU stands for?

Erm, and how many people in the UK do you think know what the EU stands for?
According to Google, a hell of a lot of searching occurred after the result of the referendum result was announced...
One can only guess how many voters just went on what they saw and heard from the politicians and the media.

But we have a result. So that's it. Too late now.

Mark

I was watching the fallout on the BBC website. I am sure I saw a great typo saying "UK votes to leave UK".

Quote from: arnoldemu on 13:42, 25 June 16
I was watching the fallout on the BBC website. I am sure I saw a great typo saying "UK votes to leave UK".

Actually, that sounds about right. Would the last sane person please turn the light off as they leave...

Quote from: 1024MAK on 12:45, 25 June 16
A lot of people may not know or care. I don't pretend to know any details, but I was aware that there was close cooperation between EU member states in various science areas. From medical science to space science.
It does not surprise me that this is under threat.

I'd like to say that, surely, they won't break up scientific research like that. They'll just find new ways to cooperate, perhaps attribute the UK special status as was the case before. But, who know with the lunatics in Brussels - they may break it up just to show the UK...

Quote from: andycadley on 12:51, 25 June 16
No. Governments exist because representative democracy is fairer than mob rule.

Wat.


-Apart from a huge logical leap
-apart from the fact that for some magical reason a representative democracy is fair (see how well our governments do)
-apart from the fact that you consider the public to be a mob (interestingly, there might be a connection here, with how hoi polloi has a bad connotation in English)


...you seem to think that detaching the government from the will of the people is somehow and de facto better. May well be, I'm not going into that argument; but democracy, it is not.

Quote from: andycadley on 12:51, 25 June 16
The aim is always to have people in place, who should be experts in the areas they are negotiating,who can look at everything - including the will of the people - and then do what is best, even if that goes against what the majority might want.

Of course not. You know there's a name for that - Aristotle's Aristocracy. And that kind of regime was dealt with some thousands of years ago. Your thinking is a totalitarian dream - only, one where we vote for our tyrants. At the very least, if you don't like that definition, this is -again- not a democracy but an enlightened autocracy.

The point of Democracy is NOT to maximise whatever targets you may have. This is probably better achieved under an authoritarian rule. The point of Democracy is to let the people decide for themselves. Including bad decisions - because after all, hey, can you argue without laughing that our governments do what's best for us?

Quote from: andycadley on 12:51, 25 June 16
Without that separation minorities will always suffer,

Wat (bis).

Putting aside the fact that one of the basic tenets of Democracy is the rule of law and more than that, fair law, please do put forward historical proof comparing mob and state persecutions.

Quote from: andycadley on 12:51, 25 June 16
emotions will always override reasoned argument and no decision can ever be decided on detailed analysis of an overall situation because the "man in the street" doesn't have the time or inclination to ruminate over every option.

Nobody said Democracy is easy. Yes, those are real problems. But, ignoring the fact that this description perfectly fits elected governments as well, it simply doesn't matter. Democracy requires educated, involved citizens who come together, discuss and decide. Not sheeple who outsource their will.

Not optimal? Sure. Relevant? No.

Quote from: andycadley on 12:51, 25 June 16
There's no ideal solution. Representative democracy is the best anyone has come up with so far.

No, actually representative democracy is the best anyone has come up so far within technical limitations that just don't exist any more.

Quote from: andycadley on 12:51, 25 June 16
Ideally the process of choosing a representative needs to be as "fair" as possible and ensure that the government constitutes a suitably diverse set of opinions. UK "democracy" is very, very far from that ideal.

True, and indeed after the last UK elections when I looked into how votes are counted in the UK I was in shock. However, that is just a necessary prerequisite - not sufficient by a far cry.

Quote from: andycadley on 12:51, 25 June 16It's because it is a "cover your ass" move. If it all goes horribly wrong, the government of the day just trots out the "not our fault, it was the will of the people" excuse.

The fact that a government may use it that way means nothing - just goes to show how inefficient a government may be, in fact. It doesn't mean we, the people, shouldn't have the right and obligation to take decisions.

Quote from: andycadley on 12:51, 25 June 16
It'll be great for Scotland and Ireland, but leave England in a place where there is only one party who can ever be elected, with no credible opposition. The first past the post system, coupled with carefully manipulated boundaries means that it's basically impossible to have a non-Tory government in this country without the staunch Labour support in Scotland (as evidenced by the mass SNP swing last time). If they leave, the last few places where people's votes actually count for anything won't be enough to provide enough swing to oust the government. Remember under the UK system not all votes are equal and in many constituencies voting for an "alternative" has basically no effect, the voices of people who object are simply ignored.

...and with that you actually replied to the "no referendums please, we're British" argument. Oh, you can argue "we just need to fix the election system and how votes are counted", but that's just one of the problems with representative government - and of course, even if you fix it, it will come up again in the future as in any -absolutely any- system where power resides with the few.

I really laughed at the UN/UK TV supers, guys :D

T


PS I really enjoy this discussion, don't mind my somehow impassioned arguments.

Err, can you please edit your post. You have quoted me saying things that I did not say  :o .

Mark

Oh dang, sorry mate, that was just wrong copying/pasting the quote tag :D


EDIT: fixed

Quote from: Gryzor on 18:15, 25 June 16EDIT: fixed

Thank you  :D

I can't speak for all science / research projects, but ESA definitely isn't an EU thing. It's an agreement between 22 members and not all are EU countries. In fact Canada is also involved to a limited extent.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 20:14, 25 June 16
I can't speak for all science / research projects, but ESA definitely isn't an EU thing. It's an agreement between 22 members and not all are EU countries. In fact Canada is also involved to a limited extent.

Bryce.

It's doing my head in how everyone seems to think that anything Europe related will cease to exist and the UK will be completely isolated. Sure things like trade deals will need to be sorted, but at the end of the day there is a lot of money invested both ways and people won't just give up on it. He who pays the piper calls the tune. Most things will continue as they are. There may be some small changes, and job losses, but that will only create gaps which will be filled by others.

Quote from: Gryzor on 17:47, 25 June 16
-apart from the fact that for some magical reason a representative democracy is fair (see how well our governments do)
-apart from the fact that you consider the public to be a mob (interestingly, there might be a connection here, with how hoi polloi has a bad connotation in English)

I didn't say it was fair (nothing is), only that it is fairer. It doesn't drown out the voices of minorities. The idea of democracy is that everyone should have a say in decisions, but not that decisions should be swayed by the largest group or the loudest voices.

Quote from: Gryzor on 17:47, 25 June 16
Putting aside the fact that one of the basic tenets of Democracy is the rule of law and more than that, fair law, please do put forward historical proof comparing mob and state persecutions.

Gay rights
Women's vote
Abolition of slavery
End of capital punishment

All of the above were not favoured by the majority at the time and likely would never occur under a situation where every (eligible) person has an equal say.

Quote from: Gryzor on 17:47, 25 June 16
Nobody said Democracy is easy. Yes, those are real problems. But, ignoring the fact that this description perfectly fits elected governments as well, it simply doesn't matter. Democracy requires educated, involved citizens who come together, discuss and decide. Not sheeple who outsource their will.

But "sheeple who outsource their will" is exactly what you get from a referendum. The media will whip up a storm and huge portions of the population will inevitably take the "easy" route and just go along with whatever narrative their preferred sources are giving them. Imagining that any of us could live in a society solely populated by well educated individuals who look at the facts, discuss and come up with rational decisions seems rather naïve.

Quote from: Gryzor on 17:47, 25 June 16
No, actually representative democracy is the best anyone has come up so far within technical limitations that just don't exist any more.

If it were merely a technical issue, we'd have gone past it by now and there'd be nations adopting such a system. It doesn't work though, you need a system of checks and balances to protect the weaker members of society who will otherwise go unheard and abused. The purpose of representative democracy is to try an amplify the voices of these people, so that society as a whole is protected.

Quote from: Gryzor on 17:47, 25 June 16
...and with that you actually replied to the "no referendums please, we're British" argument. Oh, you can argue "we just need to fix the election system and how votes are counted", but that's just one of the problems with representative government - and of course, even if you fix it, it will come up again in the future as in any -absolutely any- system where power resides with the few.

No system of voting is entirely fair. And power always resides with the few, whether they are elected representatives, the media or just the strongest/loudest/cruellest members of society.

Quote from: Gryzor on 17:47, 25 June 16
PS I really enjoy this discussion, don't mind my somehow impassioned arguments.

:-)

Quote from: EgoTrip on 22:19, 25 June 16
It's doing my head in how everyone seems to think that anything Europe related will cease to exist and the UK will be completely isolated.

Is everyone still running round like Smurfs with arms outstretched, screaming? haven't seen today's press yet... But here in Greece they're trying to tell us that hey, no more tourists from the UK because... visa. Yeah, right.

Quote from: andycadley on 22:26, 25 June 16
I didn't say it was fair (nothing is), only that it is fairer. It doesn't drown out the voices of minorities.

Actually, it does. By reducing a large number of citizens down to a few hundred outlets you drown out pretty much anything outside mainstream opinions and issues. Just because a few politicians here and there pick up a pet cause that doesn't cost them anything so that they can say "see, we're doing good" while very often they do the exact opposite behind the scenes (and always steal you blind) it doesn't mean that a representative system is better.


Having your voice and your rights drowned by the noise is not an issue of systems. It's an issue of society levels. And in all the examples you mentioned states actually perpetuated (and still do) oppression for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Representative states, ever since they existed. Whole nations have been massacred under representative governments.


Slavery - better not touch that one, it's a much more complicated issue than that. And capital punishment just doesn't fit with the others. Women's vote is a funny example, since in an immediate democracy women would have a say right away and they wouldn't have to fight, themselves, for a vote.

Quote from: andycadley on 22:26, 25 June 16
The idea of democracy is that everyone should have a say in decisions, but not that decisions should be swayed by the largest group or the loudest voices.

Well you went a bit off-road here because the largest group is exactly how democracy should work, but anyhow. As for loudest voices, I agree on that, so do take a look at which politicians are pushed in the limelight by the media.

Quote from: andycadley on 22:26, 25 June 16
All of the above were not favoured by the majority at the time and likely would never occur under a situation where every (eligible) person has an equal say.

Says who?


But, it doesn't matter. As I said, Democracy is not supposed to be perfect or offer solutions to everything. Yes, there are issues where it'll fail, and do so miserably. But having a select(ed) few going about and doing not what the people want, no matter if good or bad, but what they believe is correct, is just not a democracy.

Quote from: andycadley on 22:26, 25 June 16
But "sheeple who outsource their will" is exactly what you get from a referendum.

This is such a distortion and a twist I can't even follow it. So, having the right (and, again: obligation) to voice your opinion is... "outsourcing it" because the media system is rigged and tells us what to do, so by a roundabout way we are becoming a mouthpiece for others? And you don't even see that the shitstorm happens precisely because, if left to the representative system there's no need for the shitstorm because it's fixed in another way behind closed doors? Or that the same people/groups who control the media control the politicians who would vote instead?


Wow, seriously; you're saying "please don't let me have my say, because I'm stupid and I will read all that you feed me and at the end of the day I'll feel angst and be confused and it won't be my voice, so please do my job for me, I'm totally unworthy to be a citizen after I've voted whereas you are so brilliant that you can manage it all without fail".

Quote from: andycadley on 22:26, 25 June 16If it were merely a technical issue, we'd have gone past it by now and there'd be nations adopting such a system.

Switzerland has been doing it for a while now but anyhow. You seriously believe that they'd give the people that kind of power once the technical requirements were met?

Quote from: andycadley on 22:26, 25 June 16
It doesn't work though, you need a system of checks and balances to protect the weaker members of society who will otherwise go unheard and abused.

Sure, of course you do. But this is not an issue of representative/direct. You can do the direct thing and still have your constitution to guide you.

Quote from: andycadley on 22:26, 25 June 16The purpose of representative democracy is to try an amplify the voices of these people,

No, this is a by-product.

Quote from: andycadley on 22:26, 25 June 16No system of voting is entirely fair. And power always resides with the few, whether they are elected representatives, the media or just the strongest/loudest/cruellest members of society.

And outsourcing your voice to a select few just amplifies that effect. It's that simple, really: you officially choose to concentrate power.

This debate about how to have a democratic system is interesting to read.
But in the UK, our system for electing MPs to parliament, although called a representative democracy, is not very representative  :-[

I have voted in every EU, national and local election since I became old enough. Yet, only once did I get a govenment that I wanted. I'm now in my mid 40's.
England is a kingdom, the Queen (or King) has in theory the power to shut parliament. Below this, the Prime Minister has nearly as much power as the Kings of old. Far more than you would think.
Our MPs are elected by a first past the post system, with the Boundary Commissions moving constituencies boundaries as they see fit. See Boundary Changes (http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/boundary-reform)
The second chamber (level), the House of Lords is mostly made up of members appointed by government. See House of Lords - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lords)

Mark

On the subject of people feeling let down, in another forum, a member posted these links:-
Britain's EU Problem is a London Problem | Dissent Magazine (https://www.dissentmagazine.org/blog/britains-eu-problem-london-problem)
'If you've got money, you vote in ... if you haven't got money, you vote out' | (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/divided-britain-brexit-money-class-inequality-westminster)

I live near Bristol, and my workplace is based in Bristol. Bristol is one of the few places in England to vote for remaining in the EU.

I knew there was unhappiness, but I was surprised by what is said in these articles (that I link to).

Keep in mind also, that it is not that long ago that the Conservative party won a general election and got a majority in parliament.

Mark

Edited 2016-06-26 15:09 to fix damaged link  :picard:

On another forum, a member posted this interesting take on the latest events:

Quote from: melAn interesting take on it from the guardians comments section, no idea if its correct, suppose we'll find out sooner than later

QuoteInteresting post in the comments of the Guardian yesterday:

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

What do people here think?

Mark

Yes, VERY interesting.


It rather confirms what I believe anyway, the Brexit adgenda is fundamentally undeliverable.   Couple that to the emerging evidence that a substantial part of the leave vote is in fact NOTHING to do with the EU, it's all about other things, which may well be totally legitimate in themselves, but still get back to the fact that leaving the EU is NOT the answer, but just makes things worse.


Within minutes (?) of the result, Farrage was starting to backtrack of the £350m promises about the NHS.   While they were campaigning, it was a nice slogan.   Now someone might have to deliver, errr, hmmm, oh heck??


Listening to a 'pundit' on the radio this morning, he supported leave, he was explaining how things could recover.   His main example - the success of the USA!   Does he not see that that success is substantially based on the fact that the USA is a massive single market, with a single currency (and a single government), but he's just rejected our (initial) attempts to achieve the same thing??


Geoff

@1024MAK (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1522) That does sound like Cameron. One thing people often do is underestimate the intelligence of politicians, which is a very dangerous mistake to make. Cameron made a promise for an EU referendum, maybe he didn't expect to get his majority government at the time, but he was forced to follow through to save himself. And that's all this man cares about, himself. Like all politicians. And like all politicians, they are all trying to the top of the pyramid, no less Boris himself.

So fast forward through the past year, and we end up in the situation we are in now. Boris has played the fool so often he has now become the very thing he pretended to be. However, I fully expect Boris will find a way through the maze of shit he finds himself in, to save himself. Who will suffer in the long run remains to be seen but is easily predictable, but you know all those nasty Tories will not be out of pocket in any way. Cameron certainly is not and I bet he gets some really nice retirement package in addition to all the other ill-gotten gains he's banked throughout his corrupt career.

Anyway, this country deserves chaos. It would be karmic, for all the chaos the governments of the past have plunged other nations into. This country needs a massive shake up. Maybe now the opportunity will arise to overthrow the current regime and maybe people who actually care about people will take control. But I fear that the cowardly snakes who caused and created all this hell for their own personal profit will wriggle away out of it unscathed and the innocent, as they always do, will bear the brunt of any comeuppance. And even more, I fear that extremists may take over, either Islamic or Social Justice.

Hey, anyone seen how 4Chan pwned the petition to redo the referendum?


Not that it was necessary, seems like real people from all over the world were/are voting (I know I did, up to the last step, just to see if it was possible)...


PS Edit: this is interesting... https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215.json (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215.json)

As We Have a many countries who post in this forum, I am interested in how each of our neighbors feel on Britain's position.

As I said in before, I think that is going to be a big blow for science. So, the opinion of this Spanish researcher working in UK is: probably a wrong decision. The same view is shared by all the colleagues I have met in the last few days, some from Italy, some from UK, some from Germany, some from other places. About the other possible consequences? I do not really know.

I want to quote German Chancellor "Gauck":
"The elites are not the problem, but the residents"

The elites would not accept the vote, so i think,
the british people becomes "the chance" for a 2nd vote in some month to Brexit or not-to Brexit.

Whether the UK stay or not is now irrelevant: If they go then they go and are on their own. If they change their mind and say they are staying, then they've already lost any bargaining power they built up over many years and will no longer be taken seriously.

Bryce.

The EU didn't really want us anyhow, we were not part of the club , so feel everyone is probably happy. I don't know whether it is because we are not physically linked or what , but always felt that we were outsiders . Personally I miss the days that each country had there own strong identity.(Which I know still remains, but it is greatly diminished) I love France for it's fantastic attitude , they're great food customs , their strong belief in eating together eating and drinking wine , having long dinner breaks and recognising the strength of the unity between the family. They drink well and socially. One of my favourite countries. Spain , I have always felt that they have great animosity toward UK , my experience with the county is pretty limited though ,and can only say I like they're respect for family's. Love Tapas too. Germany another place that I haven't had the pleasure of enjoying the country much, What little experience I have had is how well ordered the place is , really clean and people always seem decent , great cakes and some great architecture . Look forward to properly touring the place cos there history intrigues me . Netherland's, never visited . But the people seem to have a great similarity to us Brits . The impression I get from them is great . Italy , another place that I have only partially visited. It's another place that I feel they have animosity toward us Brits , similar to how I feel Spain considers us . Having said that the Italians that I have met and dealt with in the UK ,have been great people and they have a great attitude toward food. I know they're are a mass of other countries within the EU , but don't want to go on all night.

First you guys leave the EU, now the Euro2016? You guys really don't want to have anything to do with Europe at the moment, do you? :P

Bryce.

The U.K. - It's not broken, it just hasn't been fixed yet.  :P

<goes and hides under a rock in a dark cave hoping it's just a nightmare and that in the daylight of the morning, everything will be alright...>

Quote from: Bryce on 22:06, 27 June 16
First you guys leave the EU, now the Euro2016? You guys really don't want to have anything to do with Europe at the moment, do you? :P

Bryce.

Hahaha , Yep no question our English team is and always is utter bollocks , the trouble is with us is our country is too interested in the money making Premiership where we bring the best players from inthe world ,to our league , and the development of homegrown talent is non existent. No sympathy for them , this continually occurs . Come on Wales , there's a team with passion .
Utter Joke


Oh and I can't not give huge praise to Iceland ! Good Luck to you guys ! You deserve it , I will be backing you along with Wales .

Quote from: Puresox on 22:28, 27 June 16
Oh and I can't not give huge praise to Iceland ! Good Luck to you guys ! You deserve it , I will be backing you along with Wales .

Iceland, Wales - as long as the weltmeister wins, all is good

I really do wonder why people seem to be so suddenly anti the UK? All we've done is vote and I've always been told democracy is a good thing - but it appears not to be

Britain has become great again. I am not going to fully analyze the effects of Brexit but some things are important to be mentioned. First of all it is not only a matter of economics. Most if not all people who argue against Brexit are constantly saying that it is an economic suicide. It is a matter of National Pride. Great Britain won 2 world wars and instead of being the dominant power in Europe it was reduced to a third country status inside the EU. Its infrastructure and industry passed to non UK hands and its economy created huge deficits mostly because of the ridiculous bureaucracy of the Brussels. The City of London is the world's top financial center and it had serious problems inside the EU. Although the UK is among the top oil producing countries of Europe it was "forced" on great deficits (as France, Spain, Ireland and Finland did) in a union that MUST obey to the Germans. The UK was clearly suffocating and additionally it was forced to receive immigrants who take jobs from the british youth, pay their welfare, pay for their muslim children and reaching the NHS to its limits. Many lads send money to their countries every day offering nothing more than some work. Because of the  Dublin II Treaty the UK was paying them to come into its territory while they were causing so much damage! Finally, they had the right to vote. Imagine that, Pakistans, Bangladeshis and I don't know who else had the right to decide about the UK policy and the fate of its future generations! Sorry , but no one with a British heart would tolerate those for much longer. Well done Lads of Great Britain! You have proven yourselves brave and determined for once more. As in WW2 you fought alone for a time and won, you'll win again your country back from this German Union. 

Thank you Misel , some decent words there.
My point I missed in my last post , is that , I love each country for it's individuality . That is what makes the world great . Not trying to make everyone the same . Yes it is important that we work together . But we are all unique and offer so much . I think we all are a far more civilised bunch anyway apart from the odd extremists. I look forward to a new Britain that struggles through the hardships and I think that is when people shine. When you have to make or be broken ,Sink or Swim etc . I assure you all in Europe that we have a great love for you guys ,it is just about us being master of your own destiny .

Quote from: Misel982001 on 22:58, 27 June 16
Britain has become great again. I am not going to fully analyze the effects of Brexit but some things are important to be mentioned. First of all it is not only a matter of economics. Most if not all people who argue against Brexit are constantly saying that it is an economic suicide. It is a matter of National Pride. Great Britain won 2 world wars and instead of being the dominant power in Europe it was reduced to a third country status inside the EU. Its infrastructure and industry passed to non UK hands and its economy created huge deficits mostly because of the ridiculous bureaucracy of the Brussels. The City of London is the world's top financial center and it had serious problems inside the EU. Although the UK is among the top oil producing countries of Europe it was "forced" on great deficits (as France, Spain, Ireland and Finland did) in a union that MUST obey to the Germans. The UK was clearly suffocating and additionally it was forced to receive immigrants who take jobs from the british youth, pay their welfare, pay for their muslim children and reaching the NHS to its limits. Many lads send money to their countries every day offering nothing more than some work. Because of the  Dublin II Treaty the UK was paying them to come into its territory while they were causing so much damage! Finally, they had the right to vote. Imagine that, Pakistans, Bangladeshis and I don't know who else had the right to decide about the UK policy and the fate of its future generations! Sorry , but no one with a British heart would tolerate those for much longer. Well done Lads of Great Britain! You have proven yourselves brave and determined for once more. As in WW2 you fought alone for a time and won, you'll win again your country back from this German Union.

Err, I think you will find that our own politicians and political class did most of the damage, not the EU.
Margaret Thatcher killed the coal industry and deregulated the banks and financial companies (opening the way eventually to a banking crash). Her government also sold off many industries. John Major continued the sell offs. By the end we had private electricity companies, private gas companies, private water companies, a broken privatised railway.

Margaret Thatcher also introduced the right to buy scheme, whereby tenants of local government (council) houses and flats could buy them well below market value. Yes the people loved that. But now, the young (20 year to 30 year olds, and in some cases 30 to 40 year olds) can't get affordable houses (for rent or to buy). As there is very little public housing left, and councils are not building very many houses now.

In the recent recession, although unemployment did not rise as much as expected, and has since fallen. There have been freezes on wages with no increases, or very small increases. As is often the case, the rich get richer or don't loose too much, but the low paid workers loose out.

In the NHS and in teaching, the number of young able to train up has fallen as places have been cut. That is part of the reason that the NHS relies on qualified nurses and doctors from overseas.

I could go on, but you get the idea...

Quote from: Puresox on 23:09, 27 June 16
Thank you Misel , some decent words there.
My point I missed in my last post , is that , I love each country for it's individuality . That is what makes the world great . Not trying to make everyone the same . Yes it is important that we work together . But we are all unique and offer so much . I think we all are a far more civilised bunch anyway apart from the odd extremists. I look forward to a new Britain that struggles through the hardships and I think that is when people shine. When you have to make or be broken ,Sink or Swim etc . I assure you all in Europe that we have a great love for you guys ,it is just about us being master of your own destiny .

Hmm, you make a good case for Scotland, Wales, NI and the different regions of England splitting off from the UK...

Quote from: Misel982001 on 22:58, 27 June 16
bla bla bla you'll win again your country back from this German Union.

Who forced YOU to vote to get into this evil bad german union ? 

Men, I really thought this stupid nationalism times where over. They are not ? I want all my taxes back that where paid into "europe" ... better to put them into tanks and bombers to defend my people against your kind

(If you find bitter sarcasm, keep it)

Quote from: Misel982001 on 22:58, 27 June 16
Sorry , but no one with a British heart would tolerate those for much longer. Well done Lads of Great Britain! You have proven yourselves brave and determined for once more. As in WW2 you fought alone for a time and won, you'll win again your country back from this German Union.

This made me laugh. This is the same mentality of those who think "Britain built empires, we don't need Europe"


Let's look at the hard facts.


- The 350 million a week that was going to the NHS instead, that's not happening.
- The tightening of your borders, that's not happening either.
- Before the vote was even finished, your currency took a massive spiral down, meanwhile screwing up global economy and reeking havoc with the stock exchange.
- Northern Ireland and Scotland don't even want to be associated with Great Britain at this point in time.


I've friends across the UK, be it Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England, all of whom have always made me feel welcome if I'm going there to either work or to visit. They all think this vote was the dumbest thing ever to happen. And the hilarious part is? Exit supporters voted for nothing! Everything that leave voters voted for, was reneged less than TWO hours after the final votes were totalled. If you wish to call that a success, go right ahead, but you're deluding yourself.


PS: Europe didn't screw up things for Britain, your incompetent government did. By leaving the EU, Britain just took a massive suicide pill, and I feel so sorry for those who saw sense because democracy let them down by letting racists and bigots be blindsided into a vote that got them nothing in the long run.

Anger over 'Bregret' as Leave voters say they thought UK would stay in EU (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html)

Quote from: 1024MAK on 23:52, 27 June 16
Anger over 'Bregret' as Leave voters say they thought UK would stay in EU (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html)

Living proof that you should never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups...

More than a million people regret voting Leave, poll shows (http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/26/more-than-a-million-people-regret-voting-leave-poll-shows-5968048/)

Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their minds? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36641390)

Mark

Quote from: Shaun M. Neary on 23:58, 27 June 16

Living proof that you should never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups...

Yes the government did fuck it up for the EU , the continual dissmisal of peoples concerns about Unbridled immigration has caused people to move to the extreme parties . Yes we know very well that immigration will continue for the time being , but it will be neccessary to have manageable levels rather than ungoverned levels . We want people from all over the world . We want controlled levels so that cultures can assimilate one another. If the Government hadn't just dissmissed everyone as Racist , And started to listening to concerns , we may well have not made this extreme move .

The reality is ,there are very few racist people . You have racism in every culture also , Indians toward Pakistanis , African American's against Jews, the list goes on and on . The majority of people in Britain want to get on with people ,You get the extreme arseholes which are very vocal .but there numbers are insignificant

Can each of your countries ,whichever you live in ,can you say that you have a racism problem? If you are honest with yourselves?

Quote from: Shaun M. Neary on 23:45, 27 June 16

This made me laugh. This is the same mentality of those who think "Britain built empires, we don't need Europe"


Let's look at the hard facts.


- The 350 million a week that was going to the NHS instead, that's not happening.
- The tightening of your borders, that's not happening either.
- Before the vote was even finished, your currency took a massive spiral down, meanwhile screwing up global economy and reeking havoc with the stock exchange.
- Northern Ireland and Scotland don't even want to be associated with Great Britain at this point in time.


I've friends across the UK, be it Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England, all of whom have always made me feel welcome if I'm going there to either work or to visit. They all think this vote was the dumbest thing ever to happen. And the hilarious part is? Exit supporters voted for nothing! Everything that leave voters voted for, was reneged less than TWO hours after the final votes were totalled. If you wish to call that a success, go right ahead, but you're deluding yourself.


PS: Europe didn't screw up things for Britain, your incompetent government did. By leaving the EU, Britain just took a massive suicide pill, and I feel so sorry for those who saw sense because democracy let them down by letting racists and bigots be blindsided into a vote that got them nothing in the long run.

Hmmmm. I have an issue with you calling most UK residents racist and bigots. Oh the irony because its a rather bigoted and racist comment imho. Britain has one of the largest and most multi-cultural populations in Europe . The extreme right or left doesn't exist like it does in many other large EU countries. Farage may have support here, but they got a fraction of the support Le Pen will get next year in France. I must admit that I cant argue the argument that it 'got them nothing in the long run' as unlike you I'm unable to see into the future.


As for tightening borders, well it may or may not happen. But at least we would have the ability to make laws to do so which we don't currently.


I will admit I doubt the 350 million NHS figure is correct either. However as far as I'm aware the person said it wasn't that much wasn't part of the group that claimed it was that high.


As for countries not wanting to be associated with Great Britain... well NI votes mostly sectarian and would never leave the UK. Scotland I believe should have an independence vote to decide. And if they do leave the UK I'm sure the EU (Germans) will be happy to have another small country to subsidize


The stock market may have taken a dive, and the pound fallen. But if you find truth in the way traders react to situations you're deluded. The markets are one big bubble mostly controlled by software thinking as far as milliseconds into the future. If you're affraid to do what you think is correct because the stock market might not like it then you are a coward and lack conviction. You might also like to note that the short term as we all knew would be rocky, but please look up how UK gilts did today. Despite all the fear 10 UK bonds fell to the lowest they have ever been? Strange is not that people would buy British debt at the lowest rate of return ever! The near term might look tough, but investors seem to think the UK will still be around and kicking 10 years from now.


The ECB is printing 85billion euros a month to buy its own debt... has had zero interest rates for 8 years... and now even has negative interest rates... Has countries needing to borrow cash to be able to pay back the debt they owe... and of course dictates and bullies the member countries that should never have joined and shames the ones who try and stand up for themselves like Greece... The fact that many banks in Italy and Spain are insolvent and even the mighty deutsche bank looks financially dubious... Brussels is just the home of lobbyists and corporations writing laws for the good of big business and not its population... Oh and the glorious TTIP trade deal (good luck with that little joy)


Just saying europe isnt exactly the sensible solution either. And yes the UK is just as screwed, and our politicians are as much to blame for that as the EU. Personally I believe A financial armageddon is coming for us all. If suicide is what it is, at least we've chosen our path

With the Pound adjusting, it is time to regenerate our manufacturing ,of luxury goods .

EU never loved us anyway , never took us out for meals , or romantic walks round the Eiffel tower .

can't get romantic walks around eiffel tower, too many tourists and beggars... it just kills it.

Just a little example of my issues with the immigration issue.
I am Gas and Central Heating Engineer that runs my own business , I work for a lot of Landlords . The current job that I have been working on is getting the Central Heating and Hot Water , working and certified for the Lovely Guy who owns the premises which is going to be a 'Creams' Outfit which is a flashy outfit which deals in Italian Ice creams and related sweets, they are a franchise and have places in London and Birmingham, Brighton etc. Today was there first day of training all of there staff . Now out of all the people there  Four of us were British born . 'Haroon' The Owner,His son, the Main Manager , Another guy who was the Handyman and myself the Gas and Central Heating Engineer . The rest of the staff totalled 23 people , which were all lovely people but were all Polish and Portuguese immigrants. The Portuguese guy could not speak a jot of English.  His staff were employed without the Boss advertising , they were all tennants that live in his properties. These are all jobs that British born people would be ecstatic to take on as a job , if they had the opportunity. This is what upsets people. The Government makes continual claims that British people are not interested in the jobs.
Other than this point , many of the workmen that were employed prior to the opening ,were immigrants , they were being paid £40 a day (Which for a start is a disgrace to pay a skilled man a wage so low , shameful) the consequence of this is that other British skilled workmen ,Electricians,Plumbers are having their work taken from them , plus it has the effect of lowering the wages of Skilled labour . This is taking money out of my pocket and all the rest of us. Now this is just one example of one instance , but it goes on all the time I witness it because I work with many of the large developers. And No I do not report them for this practise because they are only using there heads to make the most money for themselves. This is where the Government should be Managing things too prevent these practises happening. It is us who are being screwed , the workers , The guys with money are reaping the benefits from it .

Let me clear something up a bit here. I'm not for one second insinuating that every person in the UK is a racist, a bigot or both. All I'm trying to get across is that the leave campaign was based largely on racism. Let's close the borders and don't let any more immigrants in. Every country in Europe has this particular issue, but you don't see them fleeing from it. The leave side went for the 'grass is greener' bullshit campaign, and then went 'Oh shit!' when they realised that they actually had to follow through with it.


Is the EU perfect? Of course not, but Britain is not the power it once was way back when, let's be honest. And I'm not saying that with disrespect, but the EU will work just fine without the UK, the UK on the other hand will struggle with many business moving to Ireland, Germany amongst others. It was a silly move based on false promises that were ultimately culled the second the leave campaigners got what they wanted. Leaving a lot of voters on both sides of the fence equally angry, and a lot of people crapping themselves.

Quote from: Shaun M. Neary on 02:05, 28 June 16
Let me clear something up a bit here. I'm not for one second insinuating that every person in the UK is a racist, a bigot or both. All I'm trying to get across is that the leave campaign was based largely on racism. Let's close the borders and don't let any more immigrants in. Every country in Europe has this particular issue, but you don't see them fleeing from it. The leave side went for the 'grass is greener' bullshit campaign, and then went 'Oh shit!' when they realised that they actually had to follow through with it.


Is the EU perfect? Of course not, but Britain is not the power it once was way back when, let's be honest. And I'm not saying that with disrespect, but the EU will work just fine without the UK, the UK on the other hand will struggle with many business moving to Ireland, Germany amongst others. It was a silly move based on false promises that were ultimately culled the second the leave campaigners got what they wanted. Leaving a lot of voters on both sides of the fence equally angry, and a lot of people crapping themselves.

I understand you're just trying to support your view, but the idea that the people of the UK woke up and instantly regretted that decision is wrong. You can cling to the idea that we had a mass one day delusion if you want.


I dont doubt that some companies will move from the UK. But you can also cling to the delusion that UK business will want to move to Ireland? ??? France, yeah perhaps. Germany, yeah probably a good move. But Ireland where the only thing you have going is the tax break, which might help companies but not the people. Ireland the country where the most basic item of life after air and which falls freely from the sky is something many Irish people cant afford. Business will join the mainland, not Ireland.


Another bit of good news for countries who like low tax for business like Ireland. The UK will no longer be sending you our VAT money! The UK consumer gives over 22billion pounds in VAT to Luxembourg alone each year... Companies that don't wish to pay the tax in the country's they operate in can either leave or pay. They will pay

Quote from: Trebmint on 08:32, 28 June 16
I dont doubt that some companies will move from the UK. But you can also cling to the delusion that UK business will want to move to Ireland? ??? France, yeah perhaps. Germany, yeah probably a good move. But Ireland where the only thing you have going is the tax break, which might help companies but not the people. Ireland the country where the most basic item of life after air and which falls freely from the sky is something many Irish people cant afford. Business will join the mainland, not Ireland.

It won't be British companies moving to Ireland, it'll be the multi-nationals who have three main goals: English speaking staff, Low tax and access to Europe. These companies will most likely move to Ireland. Otherwise you better tell Google, Facebook, Apple, Intel and all the others that they've made a bad choice.
Financial Institutes will most likely move to Germany, some have to such as Euro clearing houses, others will choose to.

@Puresox (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=511): Yes, that's reality, lots of foreigners. However, several things to keep in mind:
- It has been long proven that immigrants bring a net worth to a country, they don't cost money.
- Minimum wages in UK are decided by your own government, not the EU (and the UK happen to have the highest in the EU and a 38 hour working week). 40quid a day is a disgrace, but one that your own elected officials have decided is ok for its people.
- NHS, Schools and services under stress (and at the same time people looking for jobs?). So why isn't the government building and opening more public services? It would bring employment to builders, nurses, doctors, teachers, auxilliary services etc. The NHS is just broken, it wouldn't work even if half of the UK left tomorrow.

None of these are EU made problems.

One thing that I really am looking forward to find out what happens: The UK government has for years been using the EU excuse to explain away their own bad decisions. I wonder who they're going to blaim when they are on their own?

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 08:58, 28 June 16
It won't be British companies moving to Ireland, it'll be the multi-nationals who have three main goals: English speaking staff, Low tax and access to Europe. These companies will most likely move to Ireland. Otherwise you better tell Google, Facebook, Apple, Intel and all the others that they've made a bad choice.
Financial Institutes will most likely move to Germany, some have to such as Euro clearing houses, others will choose to.

@Puresox (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=511): Yes, that's reality, lots of foreigners. However, several things to keep in mind:
- It has been long proven that immigrants bring a net worth to a country, they don't cost money.
- Minimum wages in UK are decided by your own government, not the EU (and the UK happen to have the highest in the EU and a 38 hour working week). 40quid a day is a disgrace, but one that your own elected officials have decided is ok for its people.
- NHS, Schools and services under stress (and at the same time people looking for jobs?). So why isn't the government building and opening more public services? It would bring employment to builders, nurses, doctors, teachers, auxilliary services etc. The NHS is just broken, it wouldn't work even if half of the UK left tomorrow.

None of these are EU made problems.

One thing that I really am looking forward to find out what happens: The UK government has for years been using the EU excuse to explain away their own bad decisions. I wonder who they're going to blaim when they are on their own?

Bryce.

You only truly require english speaking people if you're trying to sell into the UK. Without being rude Ireland is tiny and many of its investments hang from its connection with the UK due to the language. Ireland will suffer most from the UK exit. Scotland will probably join the EU now, and I expect they will get much of the Irish trade, as the education system and skills in Scotland is higher than that of ireland. 
And imho multinationals are a disgusting development of globalism. Allowing companies to leave their roots and devastate communities in doing so maybe a reality but its not one I will accept as good reason for voting. They basically blackmail countries and people.
This anti UK sentiment is not nice, nor helpful. Perhaps in five or ten years when we're all still CPC fans we can ask this question as to what the effects have been. But until then I think its just coming across as a bit nasty and bitter

That wasn't rude, just ill-informed. Even if Scotland decided to join the EU today. How long do you think till they were in? 10 years? 15? By then the companies will already have chosen their new home.

The multi-nationals I mentioned didn't go to Ireland for access to England, otherwise they would have gone directly to the UK or Scotland. As for education levels, I had to laugh, you obviously haven't done your homework. According to Eurostat, Ireland not only comes above Scotland, but also England in all levels of education. Have you based your views on Ireland from the Father Ted series perhaps?

Yes, Ireland will suffer from the Brexit, mainly due to the high percentage of Irish export that goes to the UK. With the pound heading steadily towards parity with the Euro, those exports are loosing value by the day.

Bryce.

If Scotland choose to have a referendum and leave the UK, it will before Brexit happens. They wont leave the EU for a single day - I suggest you're ill-informed. Thanks for the Father Ted slur, but I might point out that Scotland has a higher number of Degrees & PhD's per capita than England and Ireland. If Ireland want to offer tax breaks to companies then that's really up to them. But if all you can offer is that you're cheap then its not that good an advert is it.


And Ireland will only suffer from losing exports to the Uk based on the £ dropping??? Are you basing that on a trend of a few days, or just wishful thinking? Nobody knows how the UK will do. A pound to euro parity I doubt will ever happen. In all likelihood we're more likely to see something like the Swiss model where they had to un-peg the franc from the euro due to the EU's currency constantly devaluing. You cant just print 85billion euros as the ECB is doing a month out of thin air and think you're not going to devalue the currency or have inflation.


 

Quote from: Trebmint on 08:32, 28 June 16
I understand you're just trying to support your view, but the idea that the people of the UK woke up and instantly regretted that decision is wrong. You can cling to the idea that we had a mass one day delusion if you want.

You're using the word delusion, I'm not so sure you understand it's meaning. It's certainly not a mass one day delusion, more and more people are coming out admitting they had no idea that Brexit meant leaving Europe, if you want to see that as a knee jerk reaction, then fine. Be prepared to see a lot more of them.  :laugh:

QuoteI dont doubt that some companies will move from the UK. But you can also cling to the delusion that UK business will want to move to Ireland? ??? France, yeah perhaps. Germany, yeah probably a good move. But Ireland where the only thing you have going is the tax break, which might help companies but not the people. Ireland the country where the most basic item of life after air and which falls freely from the sky is something many Irish people cant afford. Business will join the mainland, not Ireland.

Two things there.


1) I never mentioned UK businesses. I was more referring to the multinationals for a lower tax break. Inferring that Ireland is cheap as a result is insulting, especially as it will ultimately create more employment for us while the multinationals put the UK workers on the welfare line. Again, short sighted views landing the leave voters in trouble.

2) Please get your facts straight regarding the water charges. We can afford to pay for it, in fact, we've been paying for it already two or three times as part of other charges, we just don't trust it in the hands of a private company lead by a slimy bastard who has proven that can't be trusted, and we don't want to pay for it a fourth time. If you're going to throw facts in a bad attempt to be smart, please at least do your research.


Yeah I'm done with this thread. Once you go grasping at straws, there's no going back really. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how ill informed it is, which is exactly why Britain is in the mess it's in now.
Good day, sir.

Quote from: Shaun M. Neary on 02:05, 28 June 16
but the EU will work just fine without the UK

As fine as it has been working up to now? :D Also, give it a few years. Could well turn out that a UK exit may well be the beginning of the end, hence why central politicians have been shitting in their pants...

Quote from: Trebmint on 10:18, 28 June 16
If Scotland choose to have a referendum and leave the UK, it will before Brexit happens. They wont leave the EU for a single day

I don't think so; most probably there would be an accelerated process, but Scotland is NOT in the EU. So they'd have to go through something to get there. It's like saying any single region in the EU could declare independence and it'd automatically be, as a sovereign state, part of the EU. Source (http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/index_en.htm)

Quote from: Trebmint on 10:18, 28 June 16Are you basing that on a trend of a few days, or just wishful thinking? Nobody knows how the UK will do.

How true. Had a meeting with my company's analysts this morning and the consensus was, it's probably going to rise again (some a bit more precise predictions were thrown around) but nobody knows what it'll do. I think it's going to find a balance soon enough, gaining part of the loss, and afterwards who-the-fuck-knows.
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Quote from: Bryce on 08:58, 28 June 16
- It has been long proven that immigrants bring a net worth to a country, they don't cost money.

Sources? Immigration economics is such a complex (and more often than not, politically loaded) question that claiming "it's been long proven that..." strikes me as strange, to say the least.

Quote from: Bryce on 08:58, 28 June 16
- Minimum wages in UK are decided by your own government, not the EU (and the UK happen to have the highest in the EU and a 38 hour working week). 40quid a day is a disgrace, but one that your own elected officials have decided is ok for its people.

Absolutely true; but it gets easier if you have a workforce readily available to take up such low wages - i.e., immigrants.

Quote from: Bryce on 08:58, 28 June 16
- NHS, Schools and services under stress (and at the same time people looking for jobs?). So why isn't the government building and opening more public services? It would bring employment to builders, nurses, doctors, teachers, auxilliary services etc. The NHS is just broken, it wouldn't work even if half of the UK left tomorrow.

What is the argument here? That the NHS doesn't have a staffing problem or that there are not unemployed medical professionals?

Quote from: Bryce on 08:58, 28 June 16
One thing that I really am looking forward to find out what happens: The UK government has for years been using the EU excuse to explain away their own bad decisions. I wonder who they're going to blaim when they are on their own? 

Heheh I was thinking the same thing myself... but you know, they'll probably blame "the last guys" :D

Quote from: Gryzor on 12:08, 28 June 16
What is the argument here? That the NHS doesn't have a staffing problem or that there are not unemployed medical professionals?

The argument is that the NHS problems have nothing to do with immigrants or the EU. It's just a broken system that hasn't kept up with the requirements.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 12:15, 28 June 16
The argument is that the NHS problems have nothing to do with immigrants or the EU. It's just a broken system that hasn't kept up with the requirements.

Ah yes, with that I agree. It was either at the beginning of this thread or some other thread where I said that yes, the immigrant population is, for me, way too high, but the fact that the NHS is broken is not a cause of it. It may be getting worse because of it, but immigration is certainly not the cause.

Quote from: Shaun M. Neary on 11:01, 28 June 16

You're using the word delusion, I'm not so sure you understand it's meaning. It's certainly not a mass one day delusion, more and more people are coming out admitting they had no idea that Brexit meant leaving Europe, if you want to see that as a knee jerk reaction, then fine. Be prepared to see a lot more of them.  :laugh:

At weekend I work at a trendy vintage market in London and spent most of that time talking to lots people. Not one person that voted leave says they regretted it to me. Most were suprized and happy. So "more and more coming out that they didn't know it meant leaving europe"... is simply not truth. There were some people that voted remain that were annoyed, but most seemed to just accept it for what it is.


The media before the vote lined up virtually every political leader from every country, bank or whatever trying to scare people and yet the people voted to leave anyway. But now you're trying to tell us they are scared and regretful and not knowing what they voted for? I wont see it as a knee jerk reaction, because its not actually happening like that. Sorry I suspect that RTE have had to throw quite a lot of video tape in the bin until they got enough interviews of leave voters who are only now seeing the light.

I wonder why the media aren't running interviews of people that voted to remain, but since the UK didn't implode on friday now wish they'd voted to leave? Cos they probably exist too


Why cant people just accept that people voted this way. I find it really annoying that people assume they know the future. I don't know. You don't know. Just sticking a  ;D  at the end of the paragraph doesn't mean you've won an argument

Your assumptions make me cringe, Trebmint.


I wouldn't trust RTE if my life depended on it due to their state run spin.
I'm talking Sky News, BBC, ITV, and everything that turns up on my social media feeds that aren't likely to have a state run spin. You can claim the government has control over every single UK media outlet, but even that's a stretch for the most desperate conspiracy theorists.


I agree, none of us know the future, but the fact remains, the leave campaign was based primarily on two things, both of which had the rug pulled from under the feet as soon as it was voted in. So now what's the point in leaving the EU if nothing's going to technically change, except for, you know, the economy? Increased racism, business pulling out of your country, your currency hitting it's all time low in over 30 years (and still dipping, i'm actually monitoring it as I've a lot of stuff I have my eye on in the UK to buy, but the rate went crazy in the last year).


THAT is what people are pissed off about. Everything that was voted for isn't actually going ahead, so in a nutshell, nothing has changed except the damage that has left behind.


Lastly, I'm not arguing. You don't know me, I'm not some armchair expert who watches the news. I travel to and from the UK quite a bit as a music photographer, be it Belfast, London, Manchester, Nottingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Bristol to name a few. I don't know anyone in ANY of those cities who thinks leaving is a smart move. But I guess we travel in different circles, and I accept that.


But for a so called good move, it's not off to a great start, is it? ;)

Guys, try to keep calm, please? Thanks.


Well, I have no idea about ITV. But I regularly follow the BBC, both on TV and online, and the way it has gone in recent years is just shameful. I have no opinion about Sky News, but on the Brexit day we had it playing here at the office all day and... let's say some of their economic and financial commentary did raise some eyebrows and one near-choke.


It's not a "government-controlled" media issue people are referring to, that's a rather plain way to see it...


PS Since you're monitoring it, you'll have seen the GBP is up by .85% today :D

Well Shaun all I can say is you only seem to visit places in the UK that voted to remain - And that's no bad thing. As for the media I think its hard to argue that the TV media has been anything but pro remain (and remain so), and the printed press mostly pro leave (and are as smug as hell). Mad claims were made from both sides. So many in fact its hard to list all the disgusting methods that were involved from clear racist posters, fear, lies from both sides and even the use of a murdered mp. Speaking personally I was so glad when the vote took place as I was bored from hearing such rubbish from everywhere.


Now I may have come across in this thread as 100% pro leave, but that not really true. I can see both sides, and I don't honestly know if it was the correct choice. The reason I seem so vehement is that its done and people seem unable to accept the result. The EU leaders just seem so bitter against us because the majority voted out. This Junkers guy seems to be acting like a disgruntled child throwing his toys around



Farage is a hateful turd of a man. Boris is a clever buffoon character. Cameron was an idiot who believed he could bomb Syria and then seek to change immigration law when strangely Syrians decided to move to europe.


What can I say except this whole vote was probably very misjudged by all the politicians from the UK and EU.


And as for your last point about it not going too well so far. Its been 3 days.... but the FTSE is up 2% today so we're saved :) Perhaps lets talk again in 3 years when we have facts rather than opinions


   

I think what's disgruntled many foreign leaders is the fact that they spent a lot of time, money and resources over the last few years, negotiating with the UK to give them a better deal and at the end of the day, they vote to leave.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 15:28, 28 June 16
I think what's disgruntled many foreign leaders is the fact that they spent a lot of time, money and resources over the last few years, negotiating with the UK to give them a better deal and at the end of the day, they vote to leave.

Bryce.

Did they not get paid or something?

It's interesting that actually nobody addressed the core of the problem, which is National Sovereignty vs. EU Dictatorship. Anything else is knocking around the bush.

Yes, but probably spent late nights working and away from the family etc. If I spend months doing a project and it gets cancelled at the last minute, I'm still pissed off, even though I got paid. It's the feeling that your efforts were all for nothing.

@TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179): Dictatorship is a very harsh word, that definitely doesn't belong in a discussion about the EU.

Bryce. 

Quote from: Bryce on 15:39, 28 June 16
Yes, but probably spent late nights working and away from the family etc. If I spend months doing a project and it gets cancelled at the last minute, I'm still pissed off, even though I got paid. It's the feeling that your efforts were all for nothing.

@TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179): Dictatorship is a very harsh word, that definitely doesn't belong in a discussion about the EU.

Bryce.

Well If you'd given more, say free tickets to everyone to Eurodisney we'd probably have voted remain. Seriously though Cameron came away from those talks with little too show and looked like a complete idiot in the british media. It would have been better to have not had the talks at all. It just made the EU look like they didn't care about UK concerns and Cameron just look weak.
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Hmm, "National Sovereignty".

People keep using that word "Sovereignty" in relation to the U.K.
And the expression "we got our country back".

Given that we are a Kingdom and the PM has almost as much power as the old Kings of England and Wales, what on earth does Sovereignty give me?

Answer, absolutely nothing. In most areas, very large numbers of people (more than half) are ruled by a government they did not vote for.

And I'm sorry, but our country never left, so it can't have come back!

Okay, so if a lot of people knew what they were voting for, how come most people don't know who their MEP is?

Mark

Quote from: Bryce on 15:39, 28 June 16

@TFM (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=179): Dictatorship is a very harsh word, that definitely doesn't belong in a discussion about the EU.

Bryce.

THIS! The EU was never a dictatorship.
Definitely gone from this discussion / debate now. The wheels have come off the wagon and most of the points are moot at this stage.

The Democracy was pretty thin though , we had 73 MEP's amongst 760-odd .  No opposing party ? How can a system make decisions, that cover such diverse and different countries ?

The democracy happens at the local level, ie: when those 73 MEPs are chosen. When you voted for the UK Parliament you were chosing between your chosen party and the opposition. The 760 odd are the represtentatives of each country as chosen by the population of that country.

Bryce.

Quote from: Puresox on 00:25, 30 June 16
The Democracy was pretty thin though , we had 73 MEP's amongst 760-odd .  No opposing party ? How can a system make decisions, that cover such diverse and different countries ?

That's the same regardless of the area covered by an representative elected democracy. So you can same exactly the same about the House of Commons. How can one MP represent the town I live in and the countryside around the town? How can he/she represent Labour voters, Conservative voters, Green Party voters and Liberal Democratic voters? Let alone how can a government that normally only picks MPs from a single part for the cabinet properly represent all the voters?

Mark

Quote from: 1024MAK on 10:57, 30 June 16
That's the same regardless of the area covered by an representative elected democracy. So you can same exactly the same about the House of Commons. How can one MP represent the town I live in and the countryside around the town? How can he/she represent Labour voters, Conservative voters, Green Party voters and Liberal Democratic voters? Let alone how can a government that normally only picks MPs from a single part for the cabinet properly represent all the voters?

Mark

The simple answer is they can't. However, that's the way democracy works and until they find a better solution, that's the one we're stuck with.

Bryce.

Quote from: Bryce on 11:22, 30 June 16
The simple answer is they can't. However, that's the way democracy works and until they find a better solution, that's the one we're stuck with.

Bryce.

Technically for democracy you would have to allow anyone from any country to vote for any of the political parties standing. As a brit I can't vote Syriza, so by definition its not actually democracy. Of course this way would lead to cross nation political parties being set up, which will lead to a stronger federalism, and a loss of national identity, which is probably not what people want either.

Removed
Ray

Quote from: Trebmint on 11:57, 30 June 16
Technically for democracy you would have to allow anyone from any country to vote for any of the political parties standing. As a brit I can't vote Syriza, so by definition its not actually democracy. Of course this way would lead to cross nation political parties being set up, which will lead to a stronger federalism, and a loss of national identity, which is probably not what people want either

You absolutely can vote for Syriza. The only condition for that is to have a Syriza representative in your local area. If you feel strongly about this party you can set up a branch with your friends and have one of you elected to represent their ideas.

You speak about cross national parties, but it's already being done. Each elected member of the parliament have to affiliate themselves to a group, or to the unaffiliated group. These groups of people are formed by affinities, liberals tend to associate with other liberals, independent stick with other independents etc. These groups are not set in stone and any two members of the parliament can create a new one. They are just here to facilitate the representation of common interests.

You fear about it leading to stronger federalism and a loss of national identity (even though you started by complaining about not being able to vote for a foreign party), but this isn't what is happening. Even though people group with each other for common interests, they still keep their own interests (local and national) in mind. And for a simple reason: if a member of the parliament doesn't represent the people who have elected them, they may not be elected again next time.

It's a complex game of politics, but having big European parties doesn't lead to a weakened national independence. In fact, there is a group for most of the separatists from all around Europe. And they certainly don't feel their ideas being diluted by being into a transnational group.

Political groups of the European Parliament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_groups_of_the_European_Parliament)
European political party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_political_party)

Quote from: 1024MAK on 10:57, 30 June 16
That's the same regardless of the area covered by an representative elected democracy. So you can same exactly the same about the House of Commons. How can one MP represent the town I live in and the countryside around the town? How can he/she represent Labour voters, Conservative voters, Green Party voters and Liberal Democratic voters? Let alone how can a government that normally only picks MPs from a single part for the cabinet properly represent all the voters?

Mark

Yep you're damn right about the House of Lords , no avoiding those bunch of Un-elected,aristocratic scum.
With regard to the EU Another layer of bureaucracy, which costs an absolute fortune in itself , to function and getting anything changed is like doing a U turn with a Cruiseliner , maybe the Titanic might be too catty to use as a comparison   

Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if Scotland and maybe Northern Ireland joined you guy's in the EU?