Author Topic: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?  (Read 6353 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mr_lou

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.092
  • Country: dk
    • index.php?action=treasury
    • 8-bit Memoirs - a Blu-ray diskmag-like eBook about the 8-bit era
  • Liked: 1261
  • Likes Given: 2508
I'm experimenting with CTM simulation in my video-editor.
Thinking about applying such a filter for all the Amstrad CPC videos in my project. (And also adding other filters for other videos).
Sadly I can't apply this filter using Java only, thus making it a user-choice. It has to be done in the video-editor, and therefore can't be a user-choice.

That's why I thought I better ask the community what they prefer.

Watching Amstrad CPC videos, would you prefer them with a CTM filter that definitely isn't 100% accurate, but nevertheless gives a semi-impression of a CTM, rather than the much too clean footage?

I wanted to upload to YouTube, but YouTube processing ruins the video, so instead you'll have to watch it from here: http://dewfall.dk/ctm-simulation.mp4
Spindizzy 1 minute gameplay where the CTM simulation comes in twice.

Thanks for your feedback.

Offline robcfg

  • Supporter
  • 6128 Plus
  • *
  • Posts: 2.318
  • Country: se
  • 8-Bit Technomancer
    • index.php?action=treasury
  • Liked: 1031
  • Likes Given: 2476
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #1 on: 01:01, 07 June 16 »
I prefer raw pixels as many modern tvs will do a lot of postprocessing on the image, most probably showing a weird picture.


Also, I still watch movies on an crt tv. Retro all the way down, baby!

Offline ||C|-|E||

  • Administrator
  • 6128 Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1.851
  • Country: gb
    • index.php?action=treasury
    • Mundo CPC
  • Liked: 1031
  • Likes Given: 1119
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #2 on: 01:08, 07 June 16 »
In this computer screen, emulation works very well for me  :)

Offline mr_lou

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.092
  • Country: dk
    • index.php?action=treasury
    • 8-bit Memoirs - a Blu-ray diskmag-like eBook about the 8-bit era
  • Liked: 1261
  • Likes Given: 2508
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #3 on: 19:18, 07 June 16 »
Also, I still watch movies on an crt tv. Retro all the way down, baby!

Must admit we're using LCD TV's, but I'm also saving a 28" CRT for some nostalgic retro movie watching some day in the future. Like for example original Star Wars movies on VHS.  :)

Offline seanb

  • Supporter
  • 6128 Plus
  • *
  • Posts: 633
  • Country: gb
  • Captain Wrong
  • Liked: 235
  • Likes Given: 866
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #4 on: 12:11, 08 June 16 »
I use a crt for most of my retro needs, it's the only way to watch laserdisc, so I prefer crt emulation.
If you haven't already you'll have to share your final method of simulating crt in your videos when you decide which way you're going to do it.
Thou shall not question Captain Wrong!

Offline Gryzor

  • Administrator
  • 6128 Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 15.842
  • Country: gr
  • CPC-Wiki maintainer
    • CPCWiki
  • Liked: 3361
  • Likes Given: 6026
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #5 on: 12:28, 08 June 16 »
I do like a good (emphasis on good) CRT emulation myself...

Offline mr_lou

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.092
  • Country: dk
    • index.php?action=treasury
    • 8-bit Memoirs - a Blu-ray diskmag-like eBook about the 8-bit era
  • Liked: 1261
  • Likes Given: 2508
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #6 on: 12:29, 08 June 16 »
I do like a good (emphasis on good) CRT emulation myself...

And what do you think of this one?

Offline Bryce

  • The Hardware Guy.
  • Supporter
  • 6128 Plus
  • *
  • Posts: 11.672
  • Country: wf
  • It's not broken, it just hasn't been fixed yet.
    • index.php?action=treasury
  • Liked: 4188
  • Likes Given: 439
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #7 on: 12:31, 08 June 16 »
I have to say, I was never a fan of CTM emulation / scanlines etc. It's an artifact of the limitations of electronics back then. It's like buying a CD and wanting the scratch sounds of a vinyl record to be included.

Bryce.

Offline seanb

  • Supporter
  • 6128 Plus
  • *
  • Posts: 633
  • Country: gb
  • Captain Wrong
  • Liked: 235
  • Likes Given: 866
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #8 on: 12:36, 08 June 16 »
But games were designed using those limitations.
When I remember playing Sonic on my Megadrive I don't remember Sonic being a blocky pixel mess because he wasn't thanks to those CRT limitations.
Thou shall not question Captain Wrong!

Offline mr_lou

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.092
  • Country: dk
    • index.php?action=treasury
    • 8-bit Memoirs - a Blu-ray diskmag-like eBook about the 8-bit era
  • Liked: 1261
  • Likes Given: 2508
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #9 on: 12:38, 08 June 16 »
I have to say, I was never a fan of CTM emulation / scanlines etc. It's an artifact of the limitations of electronics back then. It's like buying a CD and wanting the scratch sounds of a vinyl record to be included.

Some CD's do have tracks with such vinyl noise "emulated", for the same reasons you would add a CTM filter.  ;)

For me it's about representing the games the way they were seen back in the day. But I have to admit I thought most people preferred avoiding CTM simulation.

Offline Bryce

  • The Hardware Guy.
  • Supporter
  • 6128 Plus
  • *
  • Posts: 11.672
  • Country: wf
  • It's not broken, it just hasn't been fixed yet.
    • index.php?action=treasury
  • Liked: 4188
  • Likes Given: 439
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #10 on: 12:41, 08 June 16 »
But games were designed using those limitations.
When I remember playing Sonic on my Megadrive I don't remember Sonic being a blocky pixel mess because he wasn't thanks to those CRT limitations.

Yes, but they weren't designed with those limitations in mind, it was just the best picture possible at the time.

Bryce.

Offline seanb

  • Supporter
  • 6128 Plus
  • *
  • Posts: 633
  • Country: gb
  • Captain Wrong
  • Liked: 235
  • Likes Given: 866
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #11 on: 12:46, 08 June 16 »
There were designed to use the limitations.
Look at transparency effects on sega machines.
On emulators it's ugly vertical bars but on a real crt those vertical bars give a transparency effect.

There are lots of effects only possible thanks to crt limitations such as dithering which look ugly on LCD tv's etc.
Things that can't be replicated on LCD tv's and the closest you can get to them when watching old game footage on YouTube for instance is to drop the resolution to 360p.
Thou shall not question Captain Wrong!

Offline seanb

  • Supporter
  • 6128 Plus
  • *
  • Posts: 633
  • Country: gb
  • Captain Wrong
  • Liked: 235
  • Likes Given: 866
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #12 on: 12:49, 08 June 16 »
But most CRT emulation effects are crap though.
Thou shall not question Captain Wrong!

Offline mr_lou

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.092
  • Country: dk
    • index.php?action=treasury
    • 8-bit Memoirs - a Blu-ray diskmag-like eBook about the 8-bit era
  • Liked: 1261
  • Likes Given: 2508
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #13 on: 12:58, 08 June 16 »
But most CRT emulation effects are crap though.

You seem to be rather picky, and therefore exactly the right person to ask: What do you think about the CTM simulation I'm doing here?

Offline seanb

  • Supporter
  • 6128 Plus
  • *
  • Posts: 633
  • Country: gb
  • Captain Wrong
  • Liked: 235
  • Likes Given: 866
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #14 on: 13:34, 08 June 16 »
You seem to be rather picky, and therefore exactly the right person to ask: What do you think about the CTM simulation I'm doing here?


Picky  ;D
I remember your other thread where you went through your different attempts at CRT emulation and thought you had something there.

I like it but it does wash out the colour and softens the edges a bit more than I'd like.
I'd like to see it on something with more colour.

Ok now I'm being picky.
Thou shall not question Captain Wrong!

Offline mr_lou

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.092
  • Country: dk
    • index.php?action=treasury
    • 8-bit Memoirs - a Blu-ray diskmag-like eBook about the 8-bit era
  • Liked: 1261
  • Likes Given: 2508
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #15 on: 13:50, 08 June 16 »
Yes, the other attempt was made using pure Java coding, and was intended to be used on screenshots.
But I dropped that again because it takes too long to process, and takes up too much space if pre-processed.

So still images will be blocky pixels.

But I can pre-process videos.
It's rather straight forward: Apply a semi transparent PNG. Then add a glow filter. Then add some brightness. Basically the same I did using Java, only this time done in the video-editor.

I can reduce the glow filter to wash out the colours slightly less.

If you name a game I can create an example using that.

Offline seanb

  • Supporter
  • 6128 Plus
  • *
  • Posts: 633
  • Country: gb
  • Captain Wrong
  • Liked: 235
  • Likes Given: 866
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #16 on: 14:11, 08 June 16 »
Which ever you have at hand.
It's more about seeing how it affects multiple colours.

Rastan?
No that's a joke.
Thou shall not question Captain Wrong!

Offline khaz

  • 464 Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 490
  • Country: fr
  • Liked: 253
  • Likes Given: 69
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #17 on: 14:13, 08 June 16 »
I do like a good (emphasis on good) CRT emulation myself...

How can't you love this:



Spoiler: show
Absolutely disgusting

Offline mr_lou

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.092
  • Country: dk
    • index.php?action=treasury
    • 8-bit Memoirs - a Blu-ray diskmag-like eBook about the 8-bit era
  • Liked: 1261
  • Likes Given: 2508
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #18 on: 14:13, 08 June 16 »
Bombjack then?

Offline Gryzor

  • Administrator
  • 6128 Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 15.842
  • Country: gr
  • CPC-Wiki maintainer
    • CPCWiki
  • Liked: 3361
  • Likes Given: 6026
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #19 on: 14:16, 08 June 16 »
I have to say, I was never a fan of CTM emulation / scanlines etc. It's an artifact of the limitations of electronics back then. It's like buying a CD and wanting the scratch sounds of a vinyl record to be included.

Bryce.


Bad example, I think; we have all discussed how old games look horrible on modern screens, and that's not because of rose-tinted glasses. Just like DVD subtitles look so bad, so do games. It's not an external factor like vinyl filters etc...


And what do you think of this one?
   


Good, but I'm not selling my car just yet.

Offline mr_lou

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.092
  • Country: dk
    • index.php?action=treasury
    • 8-bit Memoirs - a Blu-ray diskmag-like eBook about the 8-bit era
  • Liked: 1261
  • Likes Given: 2508
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #20 on: 14:50, 08 June 16 »
Here's Bomb Jack with Glow-blur=40 and Gamma=120

I'm stared myself blind looking at it, so I think everything looks wrong now.

http://www.dewfall.dk/Bombjack.mp4

Too little glow-blur? Too much?
Colours too washed out?

Offline Gryzor

  • Administrator
  • 6128 Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 15.842
  • Country: gr
  • CPC-Wiki maintainer
    • CPCWiki
  • Liked: 3361
  • Likes Given: 6026
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #21 on: 15:00, 08 June 16 »
I think the amount is fine; it's the pattern that's not perfect...


If you hadn't mentioned colours I wouldn't have noticed them being washed out. They are, a bit, but who knows if that's because of the filter?

Offline mr_lou

  • 6128 Plus
  • ******
  • Posts: 3.092
  • Country: dk
    • index.php?action=treasury
    • 8-bit Memoirs - a Blu-ray diskmag-like eBook about the 8-bit era
  • Liked: 1261
  • Likes Given: 2508
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #22 on: 15:32, 08 June 16 »
I think the amount is fine; it's the pattern that's not perfect...

If you hadn't mentioned colours I wouldn't have noticed them being washed out. They are, a bit, but who knows if that's because of the filter?

I can't produce a better pattern when being limited to 720p (and I am).
It's the closest thing I can get to the real thing, faking the placement of the RGB diodes (or whatever they're called).

Here's another rendering with glow-blur set to 60 and 80 and no gamma change from the original recording.
http://www.dewfall.dk/Bombjack-glowblur60.mp4
http://www.dewfall.dk/Bombjack-glowblur80.mp4

Applying the PNG file with semi transparent black lines obviously makes the whole picture a bit darker. Then adding the glow-filter (because diodes glow) brightens it back up. Some colour is changed in this process.

The question is, what do we prefer then? I'm thinking this project will represent the CPC in some way. How do we want to present it?

Offline Carnivius

  • Supporter
  • 6128 Plus
  • *
  • Posts: 1.486
  • Country: gb
  • Mayhem Attack Squad
    • index.php?action=treasury
  • Liked: 1067
  • Likes Given: 590
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #23 on: 15:38, 08 June 16 »
Yes, but they weren't designed with those limitations in mind, it was just the best picture possible at the time.

Actually the graphic artists had to take into consideration the effects a monitor screen would have on their sprites and other graphics when designing them.  Too much detail could result in a blurry mess.  But sometimes they used it to their advantage.  The concept of dithering was that the chessboard pattern of two colours would blur together on a monitor and give the impression of a new colour like the two had been mixed together.  Obviously on a sharp monitor or HD display that illusion is completely lost as you see the individual pixels of the original colours.

I'm absolutely fine with a cheap scanline effect and use them in my projects and whenever available in emulators and re-released versions of old games.  Having the pure raw imagee is juts a bit too pixelly even for my tastes particularly when viewing a very low resolution game on a very big HDTV and the scanline effect breaks it up nicely.  Doesn't work well in a video though as the video's variable size and compression tends to blur things too much and end up with a much too dark image.
Favorite CPC games: SwitchBlade, Stryker in the Crypts of Trogan, Turrican II, UN Squadron, Oh Mummy

Offline ||C|-|E||

  • Administrator
  • 6128 Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 1.851
  • Country: gb
    • index.php?action=treasury
    • Mundo CPC
  • Liked: 1031
  • Likes Given: 1119
Re: Do you prefer CTM simulation in videos or not?
« Reply #24 on: 16:00, 08 June 16 »
Anyway, colors and adjustments in an Amstrad CRT are not the same in all the screens  :) If you go through the service manual it tells you how to calibrate the monitor in a rather precise way but it is a manual process and the final result depends on how careful is the person doing the calibration, the screen itself and the instruments he has at hand. Not all the tubes and boards behave in the same way and, on top of that, after 30 years many of our screens have changed its response. On the other hand, my impression (but maybe is my impression) is that Amstrad had lots of different workers with different levels of skill and dedication. Sometimes you see boards that have been assembled with lots of care, sometimes you see something far for decent, although it works. For instance, the board of the tape deck in the 464 Plus I am upgrading had a corner chipped because it was cut in a really bad way. It is not important, but I repaired it with epoxy resin.

About CRTs themselves, I must admit that I like them a lot, but for the same reason I like tube amps. It is not that they are better by any means, is just that they bring some nice memories and for a computer like the Amstrad I prefer to have a setup that is as close as the original experience as possible, is just what I remember from my childhood days. But, to be honest, that is because I just plug the computer to enjoy some games and demos from time to time. If I had to code in a Amstrad color CRT or work in a serious way with it... well  :-\ That is why I enjoy a "good" CRT filter, it takes me to the past in a much better way than an unfiltered image  :D