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General Category => Off topic => Topic started by: khisanth on 21:40, 09 October 11

Title: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: khisanth on 21:40, 09 October 11
No idea if anyone here is saddened or oblivious to the passing of Steve Jobs, but I certainly was pretty upset and has affected me more than i thought it would for someone I have never met or personally know.

So for any of you who have or had owned Apple hardware or software, what was your first?

I always admired Apple products from the, from the Macintosh onwards as didnt really know about the Apple 2 at the time. However they were never affordable for me or my parents so never had any Apple kit back in the day.

First entered the world of Apple with a 20Gb 4th generation iPod. Coming from a 32Mb mp3 player, this was a quantum leap in size and quality!!! From that moment I GOT Apple. I knew what people were raving about or turning into fanboys over. I was so impressed with the look, design and usability of the thing. It also made me feel part of something, something GOOD !


Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TFM on 23:41, 09 October 11
We should not forget all the people who died in asian Apple-computer-producing plants, people there work 16 hours every day, seven days a week and if they get sick, they loose their job and die on the street. Anybody thinking about them? (The guys / gals who produces your iPad) ??
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: khisanth on 00:14, 10 October 11
Yes thats very true and no not forgotten about them.

However thats not what I am asking about
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Executioner on 02:32, 10 October 11
I was never very impressed with much that Apple did. The Mac was monochrome at the time when all other much cheaper PCs (and CPC's) had colour. They've always been over-priced, proprietary and different.. So different that I could never be bothered learning all about them. I recently purchased a book in an attempt to develop for iPhone, and gave up almost immediately after I found that I needed either a virtual Mac or a real one just to develop for it (why would anyone deliberately not release a PC version of their development environment and exclude almost 80% of developers). I think I'll stick to Java (and maybe Android).

iPhone and iPad are very popular at the moment, but I can't personally understand why people are willing to pay twice as much for one as an Android tablet with the same functionality, same old story with Apple... overpriced fashion accessories.

btw, the on-topic section above was where I mentioned seeing a Mac for the first time.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 16:07, 10 October 11

Question: "What's about your first Apple experience?"
Answer: "Apple is twice the price... (and I never used a Mac)"

Question: "What's about Steve Job death?"
Answer: "Apple is twice the price... (and I never used an iPad)"

Question: "What's about my aunt if she got balls?"
Answer: "Apple is twice the price... (and I never used a ...)"

I'm bored by peoples who are speaking about things they don't want to know or understand, but always judge it.


My first experience with a Mac was on a Machintosh in 1985. (not mine)
It look so different that other computers... It's screen display black & white graphics instead of green texts.
And, instead of my uncle computer (not my aunt with balls...), it don't tire my eyes hours after hours.
My uncle computer does many noise too... This one was quiet. The floppy discs are littles and you eject them by draging an icon, not by pushing an button. It was magic.
For doing that, you are using a mouse. Disconcerting the first time, but nice for drawing with MacPaint, a software that came with it. (I remember a text writer too, with beautiful letters and not poor caracters)

EDIT:
My first computer should be a CPC464, but after this experience I prefered to wait 6 mouths more for a 6128 with floppies "like the Mac" and no green monitor... No regret! (perhaps, a mouse instead of a lightpen)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Bryce on 16:54, 10 October 11
I'm not going to mention the price, which ones I've used, or even my testicled aunt. But I would like to say that people have been attributing many things to Apple and/or Steve that just aren't true. The mouse was invented by Douglas Engelbart in 1970 while he was at SRI, long before Apple existed. The first hypertext (clickable) UI was also invented by Engelbart at SRI and later became a GUI when Xerox developed the Xerox Alto, also before Steve ever had a soldering iron in his hand. The first All-in-one computer was the Commodore PET (1977).
       I hate to ruin the hype with facts, but as mentioned earlier, other than inventing "Premium priced shiny things" nothing from Apple was either new nor innovative, it was just well marketed. His greatest achievement in life was convincing uninteresting people, that they could pull more birds if they owned one of his shiny products...An absolute master-peice of marketing.

Bryce.

The B&O comparison is actually perfect, they did exactly the same thing, until people worked out that their products were shiny but shite.

Edit: just to complete the question: Yes, I've owned and still own many Apple products, some good, some terrible.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 17:43, 10 October 11
TotO, I'm not sure why I'd need to own Apple products to have an opinion on them; after all, it is because I've decided they're not worth it that I don't own any. And, of course, yes I've used several of them.

Also, if you count click-disk-ejection as innovation, well, we have different definitions for it :D Neat and geeky, sure. Innovative? Pffft. My VCR did this (eject the medium electronically instead of mechanically interfacing with the user).

As I said in the other thread, please do give examples of real innovation. I'm speaking sincerely here, and I bet there must be, but nothing really comes to mind.

The question is, what happens to Apple now? Was Jobs such a driving force that he made all the difference? If yes, then that's a huge problem for Apple and I guess they may be in for a second crisis in their history - without being able to rehire the man.
@Bryce: first time I saw Engelbart's presentation (that was him in that B&W film, wasn't it?) demoing hypertext my jaw hit the floor and forgot to get back up. THAT was an amazing innovation.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: redbox on 17:53, 10 October 11
I always thought Steve Jobs looked like my dad, especially when wearing the turtle neck jumper and dodgy jeans combo. Not the kind of person I'd buy products to "make me seem cool" from.


Only Apple device I ever bought was a (5th gen?) iPod and that was simply because it was the best MP3 player available at the time, and it did video which I liked.


Good things: it looked shiny and nice, AAC compression was good and it played videos.
Bad things: the hard disc inside is noisy and it skipped quite a bit, iTunes on the PC is a big overbearing pile-of-crap bloatware[nb]Seriously, if you want to convince the world Apple is king, write good software - "it's runs better on a Mac" really doesn't cut it[/nb]


So, yes, I enjoy my iPod.  But, no, it didn't convince me at all to buy anything else from Apple.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 18:10, 10 October 11
Redbox, once upon a time I was managing Personal Audio for Sony in Greece. Our products were really good - fantastic build quality, best battery on earth, best audio output and... Sonicstage (god...). People hated Sonicstage so much that I once asked Sony's president, face to face, when we were dropping this piece of shite (not quite like that, of course) and going for simple drag-n-drop, in front of my white-faced director. And they (the customers) were right too - *I* hated it myself. But when it came to Apple - iTunes? Why, it's cute! :D

I'm now reading Steve Job's Technological Legacy (http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/photos/steve-jobs-technological-legacy-20111006) on Rolling Stone. Let's see:

-Apple I: wow, another computer.
-Logo: wow, a logo. Marketing genius.
-Apple II: wow, it's got a screen and a keyboard.
-Macintosh: what an expensive mini aquarium! No - wait, this is a screen! Ridley Scott commercial: the birth of cool. Marketing genius.
-Next: neeeeext! (btw, I did like Next very much indeed, and I have had the luck of using a workstation. As much innovative as Neo-Geo, ultimately)
-Pixar: we're getting off-topic here, but again, they did a great job though not innovative. And, of course, Pixar was Lucas'.
-Jobs returns. Innovation! :D
-iMac. Someone did some digging around in old files of industrial design... Design-wise, I disliked it even then. To appreciate good design you must wait for a number of years. "Retro" is always "in", but I seriously can't see anyone designing a new product around those lines again...
-iPod: (this is a crappy article) mmmmmyeah. A thingy that plays mp3s off a small HDD? Whoever thought of that?
-iTunes: more ways to bring money in! Nap-who?
-iPod shuffle: that's where it starts to get downright silly. The latest Nanos are great, btw, though soooo expensive.
-iPhone: another first from Apple.
-iPad: ditto.
-The Beatles join iTunes! A revolution in technology! Another instance where rectifying an omission is touted as the best thing since sliced bread.
-iCloud: oh, oh, I know, another idea by Apple!

I don't think the Rolling Stone has much clout in tech issues, but it's a nice enough list that sums things up nicely...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: khisanth on 18:13, 10 October 11
I think you need to use a product or similar ones by the same vendor to be able to give a good knowledgable critique. I bought my Macbook Pro after having been sold on Apple by my iPhone and iPod.

I love my Windows 7 PC, but I know it will crash or freeze or slow down at some point for some reason, no matter how much memory, CPU and graphics card power I throw at it. My Macbook Pro has not done in 2 years.

Using it for a while you quickly understand why people can get very involved with Apple and very passionate.

If you have not used a product you can have an opinion, but it will not be a very good one.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 18:18, 10 October 11
This is true, but of course I have used Macs on multiple occasions and extensively. I never said that MacOS is a bad OS, quite the contrary.

As for hang-ups etc, this is the upside of a closed platform of course.

Yet my Win7 x64 installation, now 11 months old, has only given me one BSOD and is not showing ANY slowdown on my rather uninspiring Athlon II X4 635 rig.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: khisanth on 18:18, 10 October 11
Hehe so for Gryzor to be happy or impressed you must invent the product or be the FIRST. Being the best or evolving something into the best is not impressive.

Nothing since is good enough!

 :D

Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 18:24, 10 October 11
You're completely distorting what I'm saying. I didn't say Apple doesn't have good products; I'm merely questioning their fame for innovation. Two totally different things.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: khisanth on 18:31, 10 October 11
Only teasing  :)


They innovate in the implementation of technology, in the way we use technology no?
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 19:59, 10 October 11
Why, yes, like a rubber cover for your antenna :D

Yes, they're good at that. That's why they have good products (occasionally :D ): they aggregate good existing technology with good ideas by others and fuse them into their own product line. But, again, that's a good company, not an innovative one. And, sometimes their 'innovation' is just a step (or several) backwards in order to differentiate from the competition. One-button mouse, anyone? Chaotic phone launcher?
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 23:41, 10 October 11

I'm wrong, or you don't like Apple like a child don't like the food his never taste?
The initial topic subject was interesting... Never mind...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 23:43, 10 October 11
I think I was clear about:
a.having actually used Macs and other Apple products
b.why I don't like Apple/Jobs, although I do like some of the products.

Not that hard to see, though yes, we're OT.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TFM on 23:48, 10 October 11
I only had a single experience with a Mac, a friend asked me if I can help him with the character set of the Mac, he wanted me to help him redefining characters. Well, they were 8 x 8 pixel, so I helped him and stayed with the CPC ;-)
 
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: mahlemiut on 00:47, 11 October 11
My first experience with Macs was a Mac Classic, with black and white (and literally no other colours, not even gray) monitors that were absurdly tiny.  A single mouse button was annoying to use, also.  Have used more powerful Macs since (including much nicer grayscale/colour monitors), but never really got a sense that it was any more or less capable or special than other PCs.

Current Apple products look very nice, but that's not exactly the most important thing for me.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: khisanth on 01:37, 11 October 11
I use a magic mouse at work and thats one button or really its no buttons!
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TFM on 02:12, 11 October 11
Well, my prescious AMX mouse has three buttons and they all have useful functions :-) But I miss this scrolling-wheel thing once a while ;-)
 
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MacDeath on 05:18, 11 October 11
The Apple IIgs seems pretty decent.

MAC mark1 was actually not a lot more than a very expensive Atari ST where you couldn't even change the screen to get some sweet colours... or like a 16bit PCW minus the printer and the cheap...

Ok, MAC predates those... :D

But this MAC revolution was mostly for the spoiled rich brats...
Amstrad on the other hand was the same kind of concept : a complete computer : Driver, Monitor, Keyboard... but for cheap ! THIS is what bring computer in homes... and what get you to know how to use a keyboard and a few command lines...

MAC didn't teach you what a computer was about, you just have to use the mouse.


For the rest, only Hypsters' Hype, mostly.

needless to say, one-button mouse is obviously a regression.
Hell even Amstrad CPC managed to have 3 buttons mouse...



I always was a PC guy.
CPC then 286 EGA PC... then VGA, then 486, then...

I don't see what Macintosh has that is soooo great, I mean i'm not even a pro-grammer...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TFM on 07:12, 11 October 11
Hell even Amstrad CPC managed to have 3 buttons mouse...

That's what I mentioned in the previous mail ;-)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 10:38, 11 October 11
Quote from: TFM/FS
I only had a single experience with a Mac, a friend asked me if I can help him with the character set of the Mac, he wanted me to help him redefining characters. Well, they were 8 x 8 pixel, so I helped him and stayed with the CPC ;-)
(http://www.vectronicsappleworld.com/macintosh/articlepics/macmanual/macwrite.jpg)

Sure, it's black&white... But with 512x342 square pixels ratio. Nice for doing text job and printing.
Machintosh was made to be used for productive work by people who are not computer scientists.

Quote from: MacDeath
Hell even Amstrad CPC managed to have 3 buttons mouse...
What's better in 80s? 3 butons mouse for doing nothing or 1 button mouse for using with many programs designed for?


Sorry, but your arguments are from a geek view looking in the past.
It's funy a time, but I realy prefert when you speak about things you know: CPC
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 10:51, 11 October 11
Have you seen the Atari ST running in High-res? Paper-white, really stable image, and a nice 640x400.

As for the mouse... I guess Apple dropped the one-button mouse around 1989? :D :D :D

I'm sorry, man, but you really sound like an Apple fanboy...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 10:59, 11 October 11
Quote from: Gryzor
Have you seen the Atari ST running in High-res? Paper-white, really stable image, and a nice 640x400.
Yes, I love the ST for that. A little price for doing great stuffs! :) (don't forget it was 5 years later)

Quote from: Gryzor
As for the mouse... I guess Apple dropped the one-button mouse around 1989?
Why they do it?

Quote from: Gryzor
I'm sorry, man, but you really sound like an Apple fanboy...
Giving arguments instead of trolling, don't make me a fanboy, like you do since two pages with the CPC. ;)
I like many computers for qualities (CPC, Amiga, ST, Mac, ...) and like to share experiences, not doing "war" on boards.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 11:05, 11 October 11
Yes, I love the ST for that. A little price for doing great stuffs! :) (don't forget it was 5 years later)
The ST was released in 1985.

Why they do it?

Er... they didn't. I was being sarcastic.

Quote
Giving arguments instead of trolling, don't make me a fanboy, like you do since two pages with the CPC. ;)

I haven't mentioned the CPC. And I said you sound like a fanboy because you really sound irritated.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 11:24, 11 October 11
Quote
The ST was released in 1985
Sure. I don't take care when I read. Sorry.
I have trought 640x400 was only availlable later and with a specific monitor.

Quote
Er... they didn't. I was being sarcastic.
Me too. Never an Apple mouse or trackpad came with more than one. And it was never a problem for Mac users.
If you realy want 2 buttons, you have better to buy a good Logitech. (Apple mice was never good. I dislike Magic Mouse)

Quote
I haven't mentioned the CPC. And I said you sound like a fanboy because you really sound irritated.
When I said "You", I'm not speaking about "you" only.
I'm not irritated but annoyed by reading always the same "received ideas" about Mac computers.
I like speaking by sharing point of view with arguments, not reading pages of closed view.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 13:04, 11 October 11
Yes, because calling someone a small child who doesn't like the food it doesn't eat is always a valid argument :D
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: khisanth on 13:46, 11 October 11
I always felt that the Apple Macintosh was for business use and design use, not really for the home market. Expensive, well designed and stylish. So good for productivity, but less so for getting to grips with coding and learning how it all works.

Having a GUI or DOS like the IBM made the computers feel professional, having BASIC on ROM as the main OS feels more hobbyist.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 14:56, 11 October 11
Quote
Yes, because calling someone a small child who doesn't like the food it doesn't eat is always a valid argument :D

I never said it was always possible to speak with peoples by sharing constructive things... But I prefert. :D


I always felt that the Apple Macintosh was for business use and design use, not really for the home market. Expensive, well designed and stylish. So good for productivity, but less so for getting to grips with coding and learning how it all works.

Exactly. A Machintosh was more a final tool for building creativity than a computer for programming, gaming or hacking.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: redbox on 16:16, 11 October 11
Having a GUI or DOS like the IBM made the computers feel professional, having BASIC on ROM as the main OS feels more hobbyist.


This is a good point and what I like about the CPC - at the Ready prompt, the whole computer is accessible.


With the PC, there is still some access.


But with the Mac, I always felt like it was all taken away.



Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 16:54, 11 October 11
Quote from: Gryzor
Have you seen the Atari ST [...] and a nice 640x400.
It was interlased and flickering, or it use a special monitor ? (like 1280x960 on TT)


Spoiler: ShowHide

MAC or ST ? :D


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KBHoBJNfVDY/TUDNgFrTU0I/AAAAAAAADtE/OHAb7QL5BD4/s1600/Steinberg-Atari-Cubase-Audio-Falcon-2.06.gif)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TFM on 18:15, 11 October 11
Actually is amazing and shocking in the same time how much people (probably most up to nearly all humanoids) judge an computer by the appearance of its operating system. :laugh:
 
In fact people don’t care about the hard facts; most of them just look at it and judge by emotions. Good to know for marketing, but very sad for OS developers. >:(
 
If you have some flashy, kinky and slow stuff, then people will buy it for any price. But a decent, sober and efficient machine will not be recognized.  :(
 
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: redbox on 18:28, 11 October 11
In fact people don’t care about the hard facts; most of them just look at it and judge by emotions. Good to know for marketing, but very sad for OS developers. >:(

This is a very interesting point.  Using a computer is an 'emotional' experience to most (mainly 'users', not 'programmers' etc) and Apple certainly did capitalise on this.  But the same must be true in retrospect - otherwise why would we still be bothering with the CPC?

If you have some flashy, kinky and slow stuff, then people will buy it for any price. But a decent, sober and efficient machine will not be recognized.  :(

Again, depends on who's using it.  Unix/Linux is pretty popular  ;)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TFM on 18:41, 11 October 11
Well, I'm using the CPC because for me it's the superior system compared to all others.
 
Once I said when CPUs are 100x faster and memory is 100x bigger and hard-discs contain 100x more, then i will get a new computer.
But now we have factors of 100.000 and I still stick with the CPC, because I can still do things better with the CPC than with all other systems. For me the CPC is still the superior system. Just the most effective system, and ... I like it.
 
However, when we have the first cpu's running with photons instead of electrons, then I will get a new computer ;-)
 
 
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 20:38, 11 October 11
Quote from: ToTO
Exactly. A Machintosh was more a final tool for building creativity than a computer for programming, gaming or hacking.

Ok, maybe. So what are all those everyday users doing with it? Writing for their blogs? And, also, since Photoshop etc was released for Windows what was left?

Quote from: TotO
It was interlased and flickering, or it use a special monitor ?

Not talking about the TT, this was a different beast altogether. I'm talking about the ST with the high-res monitor. An absolute pleasure to work on.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: redbox on 21:14, 11 October 11
I'm talking about the ST with the high-res monitor. An absolute pleasure to work on.

I read in Retro Gamer that the ST development was code-named RBP, being "Rock Bottom Price".

This is a similar ethos to Alan Sugars, so could go some way to explain why CPC users tend to like the ST so much.

Mind you, there are a lot that went to the Amiga.  Maybe those people didn't have the playground Commodore arguments with their friends  :D
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 21:24, 11 October 11
The CPC had lots in common in its philosophy with the ST: create something very decent, all-in-one, with off-the-shelf components as much as possible for the lowest achievable price.

I moved to the ST disliking Commodore, of course, but the main concern was price; got a second-hand 1040STFM whereas I couldn't approach the A500...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: redbox on 21:26, 11 October 11
I moved to the ST disliking Commodore, of course, but the main concern was price; got a second-hand 1040STFM whereas I couldn't approach the A500...

And you saved your soul in the process  8)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 21:30, 11 October 11
We called that an "added bonus" :D

I did miss the good old days when I had a dedicated monitor, but the thought of a A500+1084S was beyond me.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: steve on 21:33, 11 October 11
I had an Amiga 1200 which I used with a CTM640.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 21:45, 11 October 11
Yeah, but I had to sell my complete 6128 to fund my ST :(
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 23:59, 11 October 11
Quote from: Gryzor
Ok, maybe. So what are all those everyday users doing with it? Writing for their blogs? And, also, since Photoshop etc was released for Windows what was left?
Like on PC, but with a different OS and different/shared softwares ? :D

OSX comes with nice programs "out of the box".
- iTunes for music
- iPhoto for pictures
- iMovie for video capture/editing
- iDVD for finalize and add menus
- iWeb for site and blogs
- XCode, for programming

And more classics applications for web/mail/chat ...
All Apple softwares (and some 3th party) are interconnected for sharing content. (music and photo for dvd or movies, web, etc. All with drag & drop)

Quote from: Gryzor
Not talking about the TT, this was a different beast altogether. I'm talking about the ST with the high-res monitor. An absolute pleasure to work on.
I have just asked if the ST got a special "progressive display" monitor for displaying 640x400 (like TT got one for the 1280x960). So the answer if yes. It's very cool, I never saw it ! :)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: mahlemiut on 00:27, 12 October 11
The Sharp X68000 managed 768x512 in glorious 16-bit colour back in 1987.  Japan liked high resolution displays, since Japanese is hard to read at 320x200 :)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 00:35, 12 October 11
The Sharp X68000 managed 768x512 in glorious 16-bit colour back in 1987.  Japan liked high resolution displays, since Japanese is hard to read at 320x200 :)
I got a X68000 monitor. It's multiscan (15/31KHz) and can display progressive resolutions.
X68000 was the best 16bit computer ever. (for gamers :D)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: redbox on 12:19, 12 October 11
Whenever you talk about Apple and Macs between fans and sceptics, something always happens: The sceptics pan the hardware and the fans fall back onto the software.  "Buts OSX is great! It comes with loads of apps!".


If it's the software that makes the Mac, then you've been badly ripped off because the hardware is pretty uninspiring and expensive for what it is, and you just paid one huge price for OSX and iWhatever.

Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 12:24, 12 October 11
I wouldn't put it so categorically, but there is definitely truth in that. Which is why Apple won't hear about opening OSX to normal PCs (even if they can run it) - if they do, they know they're kind of finished...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: awergh on 15:22, 12 October 11
I wouldn't put it so categorically, but there is definitely truth in that. Which is why Apple won't hear about opening OSX to normal PCs (even if they can run it) - if they do, they know they're kind of finished...
Well didn't clones almost finish off apple previously?


Personally OSX doesn't work for me whenever I have used it. I just dislike the integrated menu bar, the dock and despise floating windows in applications they just annoy me so pretty much I don't like anything about OSX essentially. Not that I've used it a whole lot but I doubt I could get over those issues or the complete lack of freedom which would be the real issue.


I spose I could answer the original topic though,
my first apple experience was in primary school on System 7 and I don't think I thought much of it really I didn't think it any better or worse then what I was used to with Windows 3.1 so I guess the experience was indifferent, the games were much more memorable then the OS itself, I really don't remember doing anything much resembling school work. Later on I didn't find MacOS8/9 any better in experience to Windows 95/98 either so I guess it wasn't a great experience it wasn't bad it just wasn't some magical experience that changed my view on life forever and that made me want to go buy overpriced shiny things.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 15:44, 12 October 11



If it's the software that makes the Mac, then you've been badly ripped off because the hardware is pretty uninspiring and expensive for what it is, and you just paid one huge price for OSX and iWhatever.
I have to remember you that 80's PC are very expansive too... And both are sold by millions because professional users need professional softwares... And both don't cost the selling price.
It's why, CPC, ST, Amiga... Got succes from home use.
If an Atari ST can run Microsoft programs, PC and Mac may not got succes too!

When I chose a computer, it's first for using softwares, not for doing benchmark and fap...
After, remember that Apple Mac cost around the same price of  Sony PC and both cost twice the price of a lowcost PC.

And you know what ? Some people buy MacBook for running Windows7 on it. No OSX.
It's their choices, they chose the hardware not the software. And then ?

EDIT :
Pretty Uninspired  hardware ? Speaking about Laptop Mac :
- Aluminium and glass materials. (no cheap plastics)
- Backlight keyboard. (no printed keys loosing it's paint in time)
- Autoadjust screen luminosity
- Hi-res multi-touch trackpad
- Think, quiet and robust
...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: redbox on 15:53, 12 October 11
And you know what ? Some people buy MacBook for running Windows7 on it. No OSX.
It's their choices, they chose the hardware not the software. And then ?


Maybe because they want to look cool but know that OSX isn't as good as everyone says it is...?
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 16:05, 12 October 11

Maybe because they want to look cool but know that OSX isn't as good as everyone says it is...?
Sorry, I don't have time to feed a troll.
Good week.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 16:46, 12 October 11
So, when you use your Mac.... *fap*? :D :D :D

Also, maybe the paint doesn't come off the keys, it comes off the case *trolllll*
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 16:59, 12 October 11
So, when you use your Mac.... *fap*? :D :D :D
No, never !
(sorry, I take time to reply with only one hand. :D)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: khisanth on 17:34, 12 October 11
I love using my Macbook Pro, the hardware is excellent.
 
Aluminium unibody design so its light and STRONG
Gorgeous screen
Very nice backlit keyboard that is very nice to use
Multitouch trackpad that works extremely well
Intel core 2 duo processor
Magnetic power connector that literally jumps into the socket and can be pulled out by accident without breaking anything
Little button to show you how much battery power is left without having to turn the laptop on
Very efficient sleep mode, I can leave it in sleep mode unplugged for days.

So the hardware is not good????


I have to admit I never really liked the older macs, before OS X. However I didnt use them enough to see their benefits etc.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: mahlemiut on 00:35, 13 October 11
I got a X68000 monitor. It's multiscan (15/31KHz) and can display progressive resolutions.
X68000 was the best 16bit computer ever. (for gamers :D)
The monitor does 24kHz also, and apparently works well when hooked up to arcade games also. :)

And not to mention you can upgrade the CPU to a 68030 or better, and a SCSI controller (if necessary), then install a current version of NetBSD on it. :)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MacDeath on 01:40, 13 October 11
(http://thedemotivators.com/wp-content/uploads/main/2010_03/mac-vs-pc.jpg)

Also it is easier to Pimp a PC...

(http://images.teamsugar.com/files/users/1/15111/21_2007/computers_01_wenn1328169.jpg)

ok, let get more motivation.


(http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/picture/failerb/motivator4914142.jpg)

(http://4chanmemeandmotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/the_truth_-_it_hurts_doesnt_it.jpg?w=720&h=576)

(http://4chanmemeandmotivational.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/gay_test_-_if_you_like_the_one_the_left_ive_got_bad_news_for_you.jpg?w=580&h=435)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JQMdamcla8A/TYScX0ByQ-I/AAAAAAAABM8/yWBqXtll_pk/s1600/mac-pc-linux-demotivational-poster.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BXTaKS86ATM/TbgqSw-_m6I/AAAAAAAAA0M/tim3QVRs8CQ/s1600/the-main-difference-between-pcs-and-macs-coffee-shops.jpeg)


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Zhnhq_exYt0/TUfUATQDDbI/AAAAAAAAAyg/RorcuyAMIJM/s1600/blue_screen_demotivator.jpeg.jpg)

(http://ken-jennings.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/billgates.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-s-ipKeT1mkg/TaXefYtcDBI/AAAAAAAAAxE/bx8Nugi1Xeg/s1600/59468133.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O0J72MqWgiI/TbqoHCs88dI/AAAAAAAAA18/nn9AAXNtlgo/s1600/guitar-hero-now-on-mac.jpg)



Come on, it's only kidding.

THX steve jobs fot all of this.
The world won't be as fun without you.


(http://www.sadanduseless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/561.jpg)

(http://molempire.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Steve_Jobs_Jokes_Meme-Gates.jpg)

(http://www.jeanmarc-sylvestre.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/jobs1-206x206.jpg)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QkpdFjm2FWk/TZ0I7_JqqWI/AAAAAAAAAPY/8SBxMmfDyrU/s1600/steve-wozniak_1766347c.jpg)
Woz...

(http://yeeeah.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/steve_jobs_wozniak.jpg)

(http://davemark.com/images/wozgray.jpg)

(http://cdn.ismashphone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Steve-Jobs.jpg)

(http://images.frandroid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/wozniak1_gallery__542x400.jpg)

Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 10:27, 13 October 11
The monitor does 24kHz also, and apparently works well when hooked up to arcade games also. :)
And not to mention you can upgrade the CPU to a 68030 or better, and a SCSI controller (if necessary), then install a current version of NetBSD on it. :)
Yes, you can plug Sega Model 1, 2 & 3 on it (496x384/24KHz) for playing famous 3D racing games.
For a 100% games compatibility, it was better to got a 68000 16MHz version with 5"1/4 floppy drive.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MacDeath on 14:41, 13 October 11
Quote
The Sharp X68000 managed 768x512 in glorious 16-bit colour back in 1987.  Japan liked high resolution displays, since Japanese is hard to read at 320x200
Yeah, same feeling with NEC PC6001 series...

3 MArks :
1st is like speccy.
2nd is like Amstrad CPC (Mode0 and mode1 resolutions).
3rd is like having even twice more horizontal resolution (twice the bpp, so actually 320x200x16 and 640x200x4...)...

I wish the Amstrad PLUS could into twice bpp rate with the same video modes... would be quite perfect yet need a lot more RAM/VRAM too and some faster Data channeling.

I'd crave for a 160x200x256 mode...


Back to Apple.

The AppleII series got a lot of clones I guess.

I couldn't find proper informations on the video modes  and colours (isthere really that kind of stuff ?).

To me AppleII is always in monocolour monitor...
Is it ?
The colour was mostly using the compsite monitor trick I guess (a common feature in pre-1984 usa... like CGA...)


Apple IIgs was quite a 16bit version thought, and I like the almost AmstradPLUS way to deal with more than 16 colours...

You have like raster attributes mode.
So 16 colours per scanline, and a fast way to process for this... like an attribute map.

On Amstrad PLUS you can get quite that thing but sadly even the improved Rasters are not as good and may be a bit heavier if over-exploited (I guess, is it ?).



Apple IIc was a good compact machine, said to be "portable"... well more like "transportable" indeed.

It's design in 1984 predates the Atari St/Amiga 500/thomsonMO6/Amstrad PC20/Amstrad PLUS designs...


Also Apple released some "AppleII on a card" : extension cards to put on a Mac to get a Hardware emulation...
I wish amstrazd did the same with CPC and PCW for its PC..

A proper "CPCW" card could be great and could even be used as video and sound card at the time...

Video : you get some modes better than CGA.
sound : you get better than the standard buzzer/beeper (yeah, just a mundane AY, still as good as on Atari ST...)

Technically it would be a sound and video card with it's own Co-CPU (a Z80) and its own RAM (like 64K or even 128K)...
Many tricks are potentially conceivable for this...well... on the paper.

This on a PC1512 (or a PC20...) could definitly pull a good "Gaming machine" potential for the time (1986-1987...).


There was an extention on CPC to turn it into a PC... but it was quite the reversed concept....


Concerning design : Snow White design language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_White_design_language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_White_design_language)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MaV on 11:37, 17 October 11
This is getting ridiculous:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/241980/apples_steve_jobs_gets_his_day.html (http://www.pcworld.com/article/241980/apples_steve_jobs_gets_his_day.html)


It's even more ridiculous in light of a recent death to be mourned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ritchie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ritchie)

He's done a lot more than Steve Jobs (RIP) could have ever hoped for. Yet his death went largely unnoticed by the public.

Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 11:44, 17 October 11
By god, I didn't even know about Ritchie passing away... How sad, and sadder still is the fact that NOONE covered it!!

Jobs day? What a joke. At least the comments on that page are right on.

As a commenter says in his comment:

Quote
There was a great line in the movie 'The Pirates of Silicon Valley', where Blamer says 'When did this stop being a business and become a religion'. Enough said...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 14:11, 17 October 11
Jobs day? What a joke.
Why ? I already got 218 jobs days by year.  ;D
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: khisanth on 14:29, 17 October 11
Yes it is sad that Dennis Ritchie has passed away and he has really changed the world, much more so than Jobs.

However, why are people surprised that nobody is mourning him? Ask people in your office, street or house if they know who he was, most people won't. I certainly didnt remember his name, though have read about him a few times.

Steve Jobs was on television shows, podcasts, news reports, product launches etc etc, he was VISIBLE and had great charisma, so of course people will mourn him or know about him etc. He was a hero for many people. Even my mum was very sad and she is not into IT.

Dennis Ritchie was a VERY important person in the industry, but not media friendly or famous outside his field. Steve Jobs was and thus gets the attention. Fair? No, but thats life.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 14:54, 17 October 11
Yes it is sad that Dennis Ritchie has passed away and he has really changed the world, much more so than Jobs.
Yes, Dennis Ritchie create the famous C language (by improving the B language) and was involved on the UNIX development, and write some books about that.
But I'm afraid to said, with all the respect I got for this pionner of the "modern computing", that it change the world on 70s/80s, not for the "today" life. It's why, crappy news forget him. It's a shame, but... I'm not surprise.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: khisanth on 15:02, 17 October 11
Well Mac OS X is based on a type of UNIX !

You could say that a lot of todays systems are built upon or based on systems from the 70/80s. C or at least its variants is still very important today. Still loads of UNIX systems around.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: redbox on 15:04, 17 October 11

You could say that a lot of todays systems are built upon or based on systems from the 70/80s. C or at least its variants is still very important today. Still loads of UNIX systems around.


Underestimation at it's best...!  The whole world runs on UNIX/Linux.  C still is the most important programming language by far.


Shame about Dennis Ritchie, remember reading about him at uni and he was a true pioneer.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 15:06, 17 October 11
Well Mac OS X is based on a type of UNIX !
UNIX is an "invention" of Ken Thompson from Bell Labs, not Dennie Ritchie. (rewritten in C with his B improvement)
And UNIX came from Unics, that came from Multics, ...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: redbox on 15:09, 17 October 11
UNIX is an invention of Ken Thompson from Bell Labs, not Dennie Ritchie. (rewritten in C with his B improvement)


Okay, fair enough he did the C version.


But it could be argued that the portability this allowed was the most fundamental aspect of UNIX's success.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 15:22, 17 October 11
Okay, fair enough he did the C version.
Yes, like many "inventors" he improved an existing things to go further. ;) (C is my favorite language. But ANSI, not K&R)
He said : "if I don't create C language, another do it, because it was necessary".
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: khisanth on 18:28, 17 October 11
I wonder how many of todays inventions or ideas would have eventually been invented or thought of , if the original person did not exist?
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: redbox on 18:44, 17 October 11
Well, necessity is the mother of invention.

Jobs grew up in Silicon Valley surrounded by all the emerging technology of that era. Ritchie's father was an engineer at Bell. Could be said both were helped hugely by being in the right place at the right time.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Morn on 23:22, 17 October 11
So for any of you who have or had owned Apple hardware or software, what was your first?

2003 iBook, although I did play around with Apple's 1990s offerings at the University computer lab (and was largely unimpressed). My reason for getting it at the time: Apple laptops are wonderful for scientists, you have a nice PDF workflow, you can run all your scientific Unix software easily (your IDL, your Matplotlib, etc.), Keynote for presentations is far better than any presentation package on Windows or Linux I've seen. Pages for scientific posters. And there's an X server. And unlike Linux and Windows OS X comes with the iApps, which are just fantastic. Nothing on Windows or Linux comes even close.

So to everyone who says, "but the Mac is only about its software" I answer: Yes, but Windows and Linux programmers have not been able to come up with anything nearly as productive and streamlined, despite ripping off Apple's interfaces for over a decade. I've been following KDE since the early Betas, same with GNOME, and I've been a Windows user for many years. There is undeniably some good software for Windows and Linux, but it's rarely as well-thought-out as OS X software. And that's why Apple dominates the industry right now, very deservedly I think.

The big question is whether Apple products will continue to be as carefully designed and executed as they (mostly) have been during the last ten years or so. Steve Jobs was a perfectionist who obsessed about design and usability and was ready to spend large amounts on R&D. Most CEOs seem to be idiots who cut R&D spending and run the company into the ground when the product line gets obsolete and nothing compelling is on the horizon. Heck, even Sir Alan did that in the 90s with his insistence that nobody needs 16-bit machines! Apple will continue to be successful for a few years based on its current momentum, but then we'll see if they can deliver outstanding products without Steve Jobs. And if they can sell them without the help of his famous RDF (reality-distortion field).  :D
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MacDeath on 15:19, 19 October 11
Apple had a Jobs day?
And they didn't worked this day ?

 ;D

BTW it's like in music industry...
You always praise the singer and not the producer or obscure studio musician who actually do all the work.

Look at all those modern female singer :
Katy perry, Rihanna, Briney Spearm...

They actually only sing but the songs are produced and composed by teams of peoples who produce and write stuff for all of them, with almost scientific recipes to create hit songs.

All a Beyoncé does is to choose songs from a list and get the studio wizard to make her sound good (thx technology).



Steve Jobs was like that.

He invented nothing but commercial and advertisement gimmicks, and was only an inferior Alan M. Sugar in our sipirts... ;)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MaV on 17:41, 19 October 11
Briney Spearm...

I wonder what you wanted to tell us by that? it sounds like briny sperm (whatever that means). :)

Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Bryce on 17:45, 19 October 11
It sounds painful  :o

Bryce.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: khisanth on 20:07, 19 October 11
Nobody says Steve Jobs invented anything!

Say what you want about Apple, but they were successful with touch screen phones, tablets, mp3 players etc AND they were expensive, yet people bought them in the millions. Why is that?

Other companies invented them and tried to sell them and failed. Why is that?


Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 20:28, 19 October 11
Of course way too many people are hailing Jobs as the big inventor and innovator. That's the problem, not a successful company.

As to the last question, the answer is simple - marketing. Tons of it, and of great quality.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 19:48, 21 October 11
This sums it up nicely.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TFM on 00:52, 22 October 11
That elbonian court is in Germany, shame on them :P
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 08:30, 22 October 11
Quote from: khisanth
they were successful with touch screen phones, tablets, mp3 players etc AND they were expensive, yet people bought them in the millions. Why is that?
Other companies invented them and tried to sell them and failed. Why is that?
Because other company do-it wrong.
I have bought many audio player in the past (MD, Rio, Archos, ...) and I never use it everyday because it was fastidious to update content by moving in hand, sorting, labeling, recording, ... Since I have bought an iPod Mini, all comes fine.
You have to think "final user", not "geek user" that are a minority over the real world.
People are using hitech products like they use a micro-wave or a TV. They don't want to lose time with the object, but only using it for what it was made.
When iPad was out, "tablet PC" cost 200$ to 500$ more for bigest, slowest, and inadapted (windows) content. Like a laptop without keyboard... The wrong way... Apple, came with a best product adapted for the market, and now (again), like for the iPhone VS all smartphone, everybody try to copy in less expensive for "surfing on the wave".
Now, the question is : "why not accept to buy what you find nice for you, and give the feedback of your owned products and not the feedback of thinks you don't own, because it was Apple?"


Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 09:38, 22 October 11
Ahem, people hated Sony for moving on to a dedicated piece of software to manage their mp3 players (and, IMO, they were right to). By far the simplest way is to copy files manually, or maybe even use a simple sync program. And there *were* fantastic mp3 players before Nano or other Apple players. I had extensively tested the first and second generation iPod (I actually had them both, bought with company money!), and I just hated the experience. It is precisely the normal, non-geek user who finds it easier to just copy files instead of bothering with huge programs just to listen to some music. Claiming, a posteriori, that something is good because Apple does it, even though before Apple it was condemned is a telling point for Apple fans...

Also, back in 2005 (I think) Sony had a fully-fledged PC in tablet format, for around €740 IIRC. And they were not the only ones.

As for your last argument, it's a bit silly - you can't really expect people to judge only stuff they own, right? I mean, this runs contrary to the entire way of how a consumer behaves...

...and then you read this (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1cc07d6c-fb83-11e0-9587-00144feab49a.html#ixzz1bRDIqGZa) and you think, 'good riddance'... I just hope it's not true.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Morn on 15:11, 24 October 11
You have to think "final user", not "geek user" that are a minority over the real world.
People are using hitech products like they use a micro-wave or a TV. They don't want to lose time with the object, but only using it for what it was made.

Exactly! Electronics products should be like appliances and "just work". Steve Jobs understood this perfectly. Sir Alan Sugar also did. Everyone else apparently doesn't, except Samsung perhaps.

I wonder why there's all this Apple hate on this forum, given that the CPC was more or less developed on the same principles as Apple hardware: Make it simple to use and nice to look at, even if that makes it a little more expensive than a Speccy or C64. People will buy it. Apple is simply the present-day incarnation of Amstrad's heyday IMO.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 16:27, 24 October 11
I wouldn't call it hate. There's lots of arguments, not blind bashing.

Apple gets lots of flak from non-Apple fans because of the unbelievable claims about their products and the cult status they have gained. What's more, Apple is a very anthropomophic brand, with a huge emphasis on sentiment and bonding; it's only natural that it will incite the opposite sentiments to those who don't embrace it.

Also, Apple couldn't be further from the Amstrad philosophy; Sugar wanted goods that "the truck driver and his wife" can use, that he could sell "off the back of a van". To the lowest common denominator, to the very layman. Apple targets the elite user, and is quite snob. What's more Amstrad's prices were always low compared to the package - the CPC may have been more expensive than the ZX, but throw in the extras and you get a low price indeed. And let's not talk about the rock-bottom-priced PCs, or the PCWs... How can you compare them to Apple products? :D
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Bryce on 16:50, 24 October 11
anthropomophic

WTF?! You made my coffee leave through the nose! Isn't Thrasonical enough for one week? :D Or did you get a dictionary for your birthday?

I even had to look that one up.

Bryce.

P.s. Isn't there an "r" missing before the second "p" ?
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 16:54, 24 October 11
Yes, there is an r missing, sorry.

Also, I wouldn't need dictionaries to look up Greek words now, would I? :D

As a side-note, this is a valid marketing term, not a neologism (oooh!) of mine. Is there a better equivalent in english?
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Bryce on 17:03, 24 October 11
No idea, I only learnt the word 3 minutes ago :D

But I intend to slip it into a few sentences in the next meeting :)

Bryce.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 17:05, 24 October 11
If you do please do quote yourself here; I'm really curious as to how you'd do it!
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Bryce on 17:26, 24 October 11
Apple targets the elite user, and is quite snob.

During the summer I was sitting in a park enjoying a beer with some friends. One of them who is incurable Apple worshipper was telling us how great his iPhone is, while we were busy pointing out its weaknesses. After realising he couldn't convert us, he boldly stated, that "It's not made for your type anyway, it's made for the upper-class elite user, which you lot most certainly aren't". A few minutes later, a homeless guy came over and asked us whether he could have our empty beer bottles to cash in, which we gladly gave him. While packing them away, a ringtone came from his pocket and he took out an iPhone and answered it. We couldn't stop laughing. The homeless guy didn't get it, but our iFriend never uttered another word about his "Elite device" :D

Bryce.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 18:03, 24 October 11
Expansive ? For Elite ? Many users are students...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Bryce on 18:11, 24 October 11
Many students consider themselves to be Elite too you know :)

Bryce.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 18:15, 24 October 11
What he said. It's an aspirational image, not a mirror of reality. Unless you think that if you see a commercial about an expensive scotch being consumed by, say, an ambassador means you got to be an ambassador to drink it...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Morn on 19:43, 24 October 11
Also, Apple couldn't be further from the Amstrad philosophy; Sugar wanted goods that "the truck driver and his wife" can use, that he could sell "off the back of a van". To the lowest common denominator, to the very layman. Apple targets the elite user, and is quite snob.

That's mostly the new, gilded cage, app store lock-in, Big Brother-knows-best Apple. Apple used to cater mostly to creative types such as graphic designers and those are not exactly made of money. The PC OTOH was for business types who did not care about the high price point. Recently the situation has been somewhat reversed and suddenly Apple has this boutique image and IBM-compatible PCs are thought of as cheap mass-market devices. But I think there are quite a few Apple users who also detest this new boutique mentality, especially because it restricts users' freedoms what to run on a device. A computer without a programming environment like Python (or even BASIC) is severely broken in my opinion. Therefore no iPhone or iPad for me, thanks.

But what has made Apple great initially was making computers for non-technical users. Which is also what Sugar attempted, always citing his hypothetical lorry driver who buys a computer on impulse and expects it to work. Of course the Apple price point has always been above Amstrad's but I think the 1984 Macintosh was not actually that expensive relatively speaking, at least in the US. They did not cater mostly to self-proclaimed elites back then and haven't really throughout most of their history.

Of course by now every granny has an iPhone, so Apple hasn't been elite for some time. If it ever was, which I doubt.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 18:52, 26 October 11
For the life of it, I never understood why the PC caught. It was so inferior to anything else, and so much more expensive to boot... Yikes.

But at the time that you mention in your comparison there were better competitors. The ST with terminal emulation software actually cost LESS than a dedicated terminal used in so many offices, for instance. I'm trying to locate an ST ad presenting an ST with a laser printer and attacking Mac for their prices (but I can't).

I agree with what you say, though I'll remind you that who actually owns a product isn't necessarily the image of the product.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 18:54, 26 October 11
Hey, I found this:

Atari Mega ST Laser Printer Commerical (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Y29Jyk7Ao#)

I would swear there was a print version, maybe they did both.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MacDeath on 15:13, 27 October 11
Quote
I never understood why the PC caught. It was so inferior to anything else, and so much more expensive to boot...
bizness and industry adopted it.

Also it was inferior in term of "gaming" but we know that's not what a company manager or CEO wants...

As a result "Dad" had to get a PC for home because he used a MsDos "IBM"PC at work and had to keep it compatible for his homework.

Many second hand PCs were then available when companies had to renew their park.

Also, a CGA PC wasn't "good" concerning games, so people could think their children would work with it, not play (but Games existed too and weren't always bad, just in 4 colours only...)

But also when PC managed to have VGA+soundblaster card as a norm... with generic manufacturers... they clearly became a better choice than the Atari or Amiga counterparts.


The saddest part to me was that PC managed to impose themselves despite the shittyness of IBM video cards from the 80's.

As I often state, the Amstrad CPC actually managed to be more powerfull and easier to work with (graphically) than a CGA PC on the matter... but the attributed mode...

That's perhaps the only thing the CPC lacks : an attributed Mode2... (would be like 20K VRAM, lol...)


The horror was that the shittynes from CGA (no proper Palette management) was then reproduced on EGA as legacy and compatibility "features".

If CGA was to be done well at first (like a CPC then) the EGA would simply have been awesome and PC games would have been a lot better from the very start...


Actually almost as good as Atari ST graphically... with a very decent 320x200x16/64 mode with "free ink setting" or even a 160x200x256 mode (yet a good 512colours palette would be needed... instead of a 64colour palette)

But hey, this awesome 640x350x16/64 mode was sadely too rarely used too.

And Graphics for computers would have taken less time to become so great (=256 colour modes).
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MaV on 16:03, 27 October 11
But also when PC managed to have VGA+soundblaster card as a norm... with generic manufacturers... they clearly became a better choice than the Atari or Amiga counterparts.

Yes, and by the time VGA+Soundblaster were common, the then current processor was a 386 and 486.

Quote
That's perhaps the only thing the CPC lacks : an attributed Mode2... (would be like 20K VRAM, lol...)

I'm lost here. What attribute mode? The PC did not have one.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MacDeath on 16:19, 28 October 11
CGA got a text mode with attributed letters...

you could change the background colours... therefore get 16 colours on the screen, techically... ;D

But ok it is a text mode... not a graphic mode, until Ascii art comes into equation.


Hell even speccy was better on attributes... :(
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Morn on 23:45, 28 October 11
For the life of it, I never understood why the PC caught. It was so inferior to anything else, and so much more expensive to boot... Yikes.

Economies of scale I guess. It's bitter irony that Amstrad more or less created the market of affordable PCs for the masses, only to get muscled out of that market. Seagate wouldn't have been bribed into shipping defective hard disks on purpose to Amstrad, now would they? Nah, they wouldn't sink so low. Or would they?  ;)

But at the time that you mention in your comparison there were better competitors. The ST with terminal emulation software actually cost LESS than a dedicated terminal used in so many offices, for instance. I'm trying to locate an ST ad presenting an ST with a laser printer and attacking Mac for their prices (but I can't).

I agree with what you say, though I'll remind you that who actually owns a product isn't necessarily the image of the product.

I think Atari was seen as a video games company, so the ST was not taken as seriously. Also, it was not as good for games and the GUI was even uglier than Workbench. Hobby musicians got them because STs came with built-in MIDI ports, but if you weren't into that sort of thing, you would probably have preferred an Amiga. 4096 colors! That did not fail to impress at a time when PCs only had to offer CGA, EGA, and Hercules...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MacDeath on 11:57, 29 October 11
Quote
I think Atari was seen as a video games company, so the ST was not taken as seriously.
exactly, Atari was also responsible for the video game crisis in 1983-84 (ET on Atari 2600 anyone) so the leadership went from USA to Japan on the matter.

Quote
Also, it was not as good for games and the GUI was even uglier than Workbench. Hobby musicians got them because STs came with built-in MIDI ports, but if you weren't into that sort of thing, you would probably have preferred an Amiga. 4096 colors!
Yes... also the design of those A500 or AtariST was massive and huge, so not that well suited for a workplace use as would the detached keyboard design from others (Mac or PC).
4096 colours ? what's the use for a company use ? I mean, most workplace computers were more into the good and clear text display of monochrome monitors...(and higher resolution)
Why were PCW and MAC1 monochrome ?
cheaper solution for an even higher resolution.


A company manager would not pay the extras for the superb Amiga sound and video.
Also Atari wasa bit more hardware friendly...

You know, those stupid disk drives on Amiga that are so hard to replace nowadays...

Quote
That did not fail to impress at a time when PCs only had to offer CGA, EGA, and Hercules...
Just like the Amstrad CPC, the Atari ST was clearly a well rounded not really specialised computer... with "efficient enough" capabilities on graphics and sounds.



Thomson computers per exemple were real shitfest on sounds... which lead to their demise.
I mean MO6-TO8 were decent computer and would greatly compare with a good old CPC6128 provided they had an AY psg too...and were cheaper...
But on the other hand the thomson first series were complete failure on the graphic matter, just like MSX.

Speccy was too, but it was also the cheapest, while an MSX1 is far from being the cheapest.

This also bring the legacy aspect in computer ranges.


Thomsons had a shitty reputation from the 1st series...
MSX was also quite badly reputated from the MSX1 IMO...

on the other Hand, Amstrad and Atari ST had no precursors so they made their reputation themselves (yeah, Atari8bit is not really the precursor of the 16bit Atari ST)


When you plane to get a computer series, the first model really had to be good and have success or else the rest will fail too...

C64 had to proclaim it had nothing to do with the previous Commodore computer...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Morn on 18:02, 29 October 11
When you plane to get a computer series, the first model really had to be good and have success or else the rest will fail too...

Unless you count Apple of course: Their weird kit computer Apple I which was more or less immediately forgotten, to be replaced by the Apple II which (with a little help from Visicalc) reshaped the industry and made Apple famous even before the Macintosh.

C64 had to proclaim it had nothing to do with the previous Commodore computer...

I think it was more the Amiga which had to distance itself from the typical Commodore cruft, i.e. the C64 and the ill-fated C128. But of course every Amiga fan knows that the original machine was an outside development and therefore immune to Commodore's crappiness. This of course changed with the later machines...

OTOH, Commodore had developed the PET, which I think was pretty highly regarded, durable and even had an interesting design, sort of "Battlestar Galactica"-like I guess. So it's not exactly as if Commodore never, ever had anything decent to offer before the C64. The C64 was their first reasonable compact machine however, as the VIC had been fairly crappy even for the time.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MaV on 12:39, 30 October 11
CGA got a text mode with attributed letters...
you could change the background colours... therefore get 16 colours on the screen, techically... ;D

But ok it is a text mode... not a graphic mode, until Ascii art comes into equation.

Ah, ok. I hoped for a graphical mode with colour attributes that nobody knew existed. :D

A colour attribute mode on the CPC would only make sense with a text mode. And would it not be nice to print whole characters in text mode like on a PC (size 4000 bytes)?
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 12:42, 30 October 11
Quote from: MacDeath
bizness and industry adopted it.

That's not the reason, that's the result :D

Quote from: Morn
Economies of scale I guess. It's bitter irony that Amstrad more or less created the market of affordable PCs for the masses, only to get muscled out of that market.

Yeah, but you're talking about different makes of PCs. I'm talking about PCs versus other platforms... and PCs were sufficiently expensive to prohibit any scales of economy. I'm still baffled about why they were a success.
Also, the ST might have had an ugly (??!) GUI, but the PC had, erm, no GUI.

Talking about early gfx standards, I'm currently reading The Guide to Classic Adventure Games (http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/book.html) (great read! I so love looking at those pixels!), and I was thinking that those early Sierra games could possibly have been released on the CPC easily... but that's another thread (hint, hint!)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 12:46, 30 October 11
PC have succes because it is license free and got professional software and retro-compatibility.
Then programs take care about new hardware features and not to do for old computers again and again.
So many companies built PCs and price drop fast in the time.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 12:51, 30 October 11
So you needed a license to use an ST or an Amiga or an Apple? :D :D

I guess you mean that other companies copied the standard, but this ignores the point about price and capabilities. And let's not forget that the IBM PC was a huge marketing turn for IBM to reply to Apple...

Other platforms of the time were also backwards-compatible. Though at that early time I don't think people were worried about that too much.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TotO on 13:03, 30 October 11
You misunderstand.

Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Morn on 15:23, 30 October 11
Yeah, but you're talking about different makes of PCs. I'm talking about PCs versus other platforms... and PCs were sufficiently expensive to prohibit any scales of economy. I'm still baffled about why they were a success.

I think it's partly because PCs used cases that could easily be opened and have components replaced. Sort of like the Amiga 2000 I guess. So there was a lot of incentive to provide better video and sound cards, faster CPUs, cheaper disk drives, and so on. Of course it still took until the late 90s for PC prices to really come down to a point where everybody could afford them, but all in all PCs were better suited to gradual upgrades. This also made them feel a safer buy than a platform without an upgrade path.

OTOH I've never bothered to upgrade my Amiga 2000 in any way, although it replaced my earlier Amiga 500 specifically because of its easier upgrade-ability. Components were still too expensive, so in the end it was a better deal to replace the Amiga with a Pentium PC.

Also, the ST might have had an ugly (??!) GUI, but the PC had, erm, no GUI.

There were some DOS GUIs like DeskMate, but I don't think it used a mouse, just keyboard commands. But then again it was not clear at the time that the mouse would "win" the GUI input device war, so this is not that surprising.

But even the C64 had a prettier GUI than GEM, namely GEOS. Only OS/2 looked even shittier than GEM.  :)
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: steve on 15:35, 30 October 11
There are two reasons why the PC came to dominate the market.

1. The Corporate Sheep were mesmerised by the letters IBM and too ignorant to know or care that the PC was technically inferior to some of the alternative systems, there was a quote often printed in articles of the time "nobody got fired for buying IBM".

2. Before the PC, the commercial sector was dominated by S100 systems running CP/M and costing thousands of whatever currency the buyer was using, the simpler PC's were cheaper to manufacture and buy, also CP/M suffered from not having a standard disk format, making it difficult to steal software and spread viruses, microsoft changed that with ms-dos.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Morn on 15:56, 30 October 11
Yes, but the main question is how the PC went from dominating the corporate market in the 1980s to conquering the home computer / gaming market in the 1990s. I think nobody seriously expected that to happen in the 1980s. The PC simply sucked too much compared to the Amiga in its graphics and sound capabilities. It was only in the early 1990s that home computer users realized they could upgrade with a GUS, a VGA card, etc., which gave the PC an edge over the upgraded Amiga (Kickstart 2.x/3.x) lineup. "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" on the other hand was not something the average home computer user would have considered in his purchasing decision, especially as most PCs of that era were already IBM-compatible clones.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: steve on 16:33, 30 October 11
The ONLY reason I own a PC is to surf the net, if there had been a browser for the Amiga which supported the modern features becoming prevalent on most websites, then I would not have a PC now.

Around 1976, I started to read the advice "find the software you want to run, then buy the hardware that it runs on", that advice still applies today, most readily available software requires a PC, so people buy PC's.

There used to be a lot of easily available software for the Amstrad CPC, not anymore, so if you want to buy software your only choice is what is in the shops, so you must buy the hardware if you don't already have it.

Back to the topic, if it were not for Visicalc, the apple 2 and Apple itself might have followed all the other home computer manufacturers into oblivion.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Morn on 17:03, 30 October 11
The ONLY reason I own a PC is to surf the net, if there had been a browser for the Amiga which supported the modern features becoming prevalent on most websites, then I would not have a PC now.

Around 1976, I started to read the advice "find the software you want to run, then buy the hardware that it runs on", that advice still applies today, most readily available software requires a PC, so people buy PC's.

I don't think it was so much the greatness of PC software as the fact that many users had been burnt in the 80s by betting on dying platforms such as the CPC and Amiga. So the PC seemed a much safer choice. It was not because Windows 3.1 or any of its applications were so much better than what the Amiga had to offer. Neither were PC games that impressive at the time. But not having to watch your platform of choice slowly wither away like the CPC and Amiga did might have played a role. People just liked to be on the winning side for once.

There used to be a lot of easily available software for the Amstrad CPC, not anymore, so if you want to buy software your only choice is what is in the shops, so you must buy the hardware if you don't already have it.

Back to the topic, if it were not for Visicalc, the apple 2 and Apple itself might have followed all the other home computer manufacturers into oblivion.

Apple also had the educational market cornered in the US, i.e. classroom computers. Playing Oregon Trail on the classroom Apple II is something many people seem to remember who were going to school in the early (or even late) 1980s. Apple was probably the first computer company to get that the kind of fanatical loyalty from their customers because people fondly remembered the brand from childhood. This made Apple the Disney of computer brands and probably helped to keep them afloat in the early 1990s when their products were a bad joke compared to PCs.

Of course ultimately the crappiness of their products scared away even their most hardcore fans, so by 1997 fanboyism no longer made a difference. But without the educational market advantage they might have collapsed a lot sooner and nobody would have cared.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 21:17, 30 October 11
My original question was about the domination of PCs in general, not just in the home market. But some good arguments and points in the last few posts.

Slightly back on topic, this afternoon I read how Jobs exploited a legal loophole to drive a car without a license plate...ugh.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Morn on 22:24, 30 October 11
Slightly back on topic, this afternoon I read how Jobs exploited a legal loophole to drive a car without a license plate...ugh.

As far as I know, it's not really a loophole (you have to pay a fine), however the fine is fairly low so Steve let out his rebellious, counter-culture side a bit there.  :) It's strange that the same man would advocate the app store which is so restrictive in terms of users' freedoms. Preach water, drink wine I guess...

Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 22:28, 30 October 11
What I read what that the loophole says that when you get a new car you can drive it for six months (!!! wtf? In civilised countries you CAN'T get on the road without a plate I would guess...), so he'd lease (?) a new one every six months...

Either that or him paying the fines is the same thing - how rich people show contempt for the law, even in such basic things...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Morn on 22:47, 30 October 11
Either that or him paying the fines is the same thing - how rich people show contempt for the law, even in such basic things...

Actually, if you ride your car in the US non-commercially (i.e., you don't make money from your riding), then you don't have to get license plates at all! Nor do you even need to obtain a driver's license. That's how it used to be and that's how it still is, except few people seem to realize it.

The legal trick is that the state calls your car a "vehicle" in the registration papers and you a "driver" (i.e., someone whose occupation it is to drive) in your driver's license, which makes your driving of a commercial nature and therefore you need to get license plates and pay a registration fee. That's the real loophole and I think an increasing number of people know about it. Stev-o apparently did not.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 22:54, 30 October 11
Have people tested this in courts?

First definition on Google for 'vehicle':
A thing used for transporting people or goods, esp. on land, such as a car, truck, or cart.. So no commercial.

Also, for driver:
A person who drives a vehicle.. *Definitely* nothing to do with 'occupation'. No person in his mind would ever think otherwise.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Bryce on 23:32, 30 October 11
The problem, like many laws in England and Ireland too, is that they were written long ago and interpreted differently. Back then a Driver really was someone who drove for a living. If the law refers to an occupational driver and has never been amended, then that could be the case. I know many similar crazy laws in Ireland and England.

Bryce.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: AMSDOS on 01:29, 31 October 11
I think the former (now deceased) founder for Apple was simply around at the right place at the right time when they built the Apple I around 1976 which allowed them to proceed with the Apple ][ (in 1977)  and the rest is sort of history.
 
Bill Gates is merely the other bod which was around at the right place and the right time and can thank Gary Kildall's Wife for allowing that to happen.
 
And basically everything sort of went right for Apple and Microsoft and anything which went onto the backburner went to Digital Research, Inc. That doesn't mean what happened was correct and even Apple lost battles to Microsoft when they sued Microsoft for their Windows! Though everyone knows DOS was a rip-off of CP/M, It didn't stop CP/M from evolving which exists under a number of systems, it's dominance was simply more evident in 8bit systems, DRs GUI GEM (v1.2 I think from memory) is actually quite a nice GUI to use, however later versions suffered because Apple put the clamps on GEM (through a lawsuit in the mid-80s) on the PC because it was so simular to Apple GUI. Apple tried the same stunt with Microsoft though failed cause Microsoft were careful not to make it like a MacOS.
 
Though put all that aside, I've been using Apples since I was at Primary School (probably the next machine I was using after the CPC464), which I think was an Apple ][e. They also had a Mac Plus which was probably the first GUI I came to use. In them early days for me I was mainly using Apple ][e's though, did some Word Processing and played around with some Graphics program (one which had all these Garfield figurines in it which was interactive) and also played a game where you had to travel around the world trying to catch a crim and follow the flags and clues along the way to catch them!
 
But I've also used an Apple ][c from 1984 which is a nice compact machine with the Disk Drive built into the computer and has a small green screen monitor. I think that machine had 128k and early ][e's had 64k. And going through School I thought we were using Mac Classic's which had the Greyscale screens (looks a bit like a Mac SE (http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=161)). A few years ago I brought myself a Mac book Pro which I've been fairly happy with, though still using the PC with WinXP.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: steve on 02:08, 31 October 11
I think both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates have shown the ruthless streak that made their companies successful.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MacDeath on 09:25, 31 October 11
They weren't only mundane guys at the right place...

They were also ambitious "long-teeth" from golden families breed to success.


Bill gates now pass for a kool guy, but at the time his teeth were so long they scratched the underground's floor while he was standing on the roof.

Ok he did a working Basic for the Altair8800...

But he basically stole CP/M to get his MsDos.

Then he stole MacOs (which was also stealing a lot on other stuffs) to get his Window...



Quote
My original question was about the domination of PCs in general
IBM was defacto the Norm maker.
But as they actually got screwed by Microsoft... the IBM PC & compatible became MS-Dos computer...


Every body was stealing on IBM PC and Microsoft encouraged this too.

Why developp a new non compatible machine ?
Some did but many manufacturer simply couldn't pay for such development, nor pay to get a proper brand new specific OS.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: AMSDOS on 10:17, 31 October 11
Ok he did a working Basic for the Altair8800...

Probably a hack of the Original Dartmouth BASIC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmouth_BASIC)!  :laugh:
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: AMSDOS on 10:30, 31 October 11
Sorry I don't have any references, though my understanding is IBM based PCs became a dominant machine because the Schematics somehow became freely available to other manufacturers to produce their versions of the machine. Apple based computers are only made by Apple which became a bit of a setback for Apple, though perhaps good in other ways.
Back in the early 80s there were other 68000 based systems, Hewlett-Packard had a machine, though I think while they shared the same processor, they were different machines, much like comparing an Amstrad to an Spectrum or Jupiter Ace. There were also other computers with 8088 processors which were different from the original IBM PC even if there were some similarities.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 12:14, 31 October 11
@Bryce: yes, every country has crazy laws that have been outdated for decades. But in this particular case, I'll be damned if any court would interpret it so narrowly and allow the argument...

@MacDeath: actually IBM had lost a tremendous market share to competitors who offered similar or more powerful products at a fraction of IBM's price, so at the time they turned their attention to self-contained workstations (precisely as a response to their inability to compete) they were not viewed as the standard setters so much...
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: MacDeath on 20:23, 01 November 11
Quote
actually IBM had lost a tremendous market share to competitors who offered similar or more powerful products at a fraction of IBM's price, so at the time they turned their attention to self-contained workstations (precisely as a response to their inability to compete) they were not viewed as the standard setters so much...
of course but the original IBM PC was the norm maker at first... then Microsoft became the norm maker...

MsDos was designed to run on IBM PCs...
Then competitors designed PC to run MSDos...

Then Microsoft designed windows to run on such various machines successors, then those various successor machines were designed to run Windows and so on.

On the other hands, many independeent manufacturers had a lot of interest into getting their various peripheral products (video and sound cards, CPU...) to run on a maximum number of machines.

How convenient was it, and all this because Bill Gates managed to screw deeply IBM while the CP/M creator wanted no deal and was actually quite a bizness amateur.

But the main point is that if IBM did a better job on the CGA (then EGA) specifications and gave a little bit if sound to its machine (hell even a simple AY would have been good to start with, be it optionnal) the IBM PC spec could have be a far better game platform from the very start and compare very well with AtariST.

seriously the history of 80's homecomputers could have changed a lot.
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: AMSDOS on 12:14, 02 November 11

MsDos was designed to run on IBM PCs...

Well sort of. There's PC-DOS which is more specific for IBM PCs, though MS-DOS is a more generic version of that which could run on other 8088 systems at the time which weren't IBM Compatable. To check out if your system was IBM Compatable or not, you could run Microsoft Flight Simulator which required a IBM or Compatable for it to work.

 
Quote
How convenient was it, and all this because Bill Gates managed to screw deeply IBM while the CP/M creator wanted no deal and was actually quite a bizness amateur.

It was actally Gary Kildall's Wife which screwed up an important meeting they wanted to have about Gary writing an Operating System for their IBM system!  :'(

Quote
But the main point is that if IBM did a better job on the CGA (then EGA) specifications and gave a little bit if sound to its machine (hell even a simple AY would have been good to start with, be it optionnal) the IBM PC spec could have be a far better game platform from the very start and compare very well with AtariST.

The original IBM PC was built with Business in mind - not a home computer. IBM followed this up with the IBM PC Jnr which was targeted more for the home and games. It still only had CGA, though I think this particular machine allowed for the 160x100x16 colour mode, which isn't a mode normally supported in IBMs & Compatables in general. PC Jnr's main drawback I believe was the cost of the machine which was released around 1983/4, 16 bit technologies were still a costly business in them days (having lots of RAM in them too wouldn't be cheap), a TI 99/4a computer might of been more affordable computer though given TI made their own processors for that line of machines.

Quote
seriously the history of 80's homecomputers could have changed a lot.

Well I think the technologies were there as well as those systems I mentioned, though cost and where those machines were marketed and the success of them probably just meant they were too expensive, even Apple released their Lisa around 1983 which was far too expensive for the features (like the Mac's which shortly followed it) it had a small monochrome screen, someone thought it would be funny to put 1 Megabyte in the machine!  :o
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 20:08, 02 November 11
Apple was granted a patent for... the sliding lock on mobile devices! I guess this makes my Android device illegal.

Read the full hilarious story here (http://www.techdirt.com/blog/wireless/articles/20111101/02382716580/real-issue-with-apples-slide-to-unlock-patent-double-patenting-bogus-continuations.shtml).
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TFM on 20:19, 02 November 11
Well, Apple tries all to become the #1 hated, even before M$
 
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 18:10, 03 November 11
My thinking. Nowadays people have actually stopped talking and cursing MS and started dissing Apple instead - or am I the only one seeing this?
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: TFM on 01:03, 04 November 11
So Apple catches up in bit steps  :laugh:
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Badstarr on 04:52, 17 November 11
Wow I just found this little gem of a thread! I think I can see how such a battle can become ignited (as I type on my MacBook). I think it basically comes down to this: Apple is the only real computer/hardware vendor that has a real identity, you know, like our Amstrad CPCs have. Apple computers are really the only living fossil of a bygone age where a computer brand meant that you were part of a community, or rather, 'Tribe'. The fanboy culture is a global scale version of the playground battles of the 80's Speccy, Commodore, Amstrad. 


I think the guy that started the thread took a lot of flack really. I think he has just bought in to the whole cult of Apple and the tribal identity, and it's an easy trap to fall into. When you find a machine be it a car, a drill, a washing machine or a toothbrush that feels right for you, some people can't understand why anyone would want to use anything else, it just comes down to personal preference. I use a Mac, or PC,  or CPC, or Amiga, etc because it feels right for 'me'. I think the Apple fanboys forget that a Windows user is just as entitled to their preference as a Mac user.


Aren't we all CPC fanboys to an extent?  ;)


I admit it, I love Macs. Let me ask you this, and in doing so you might get a bit of an idea why Apple people seem so shallow at first glance. If you have to work in a room, do you pick the one with grey walls, bare floors and horrible lighting? Or one that is comfortable filled with IKEA furniture and pleasant to be in? Theoretically it shouldn't make a difference but to me it would. Macs have a pleasant look and feel, that for some makes them appealing to work on, and the OS is stable and flexible, nice to look at. Compare that to Windows XP which was contemporary to Mac OS X when it launched and tell me which OS makes you want to get going on that project you've been meaning to start? Maybe you'll like the more clinical Windows Xp? But for me I like the warm fuzziness of OS X. Some like the (new) warm fuzziness of Windows 7! But yes, Macs cost too much!


The cult of Steve Jobs all comes about because Apple fanboys mistake his contribution to the world of computers etc. No he didn't invent anything new, but he did seem to have an uncanny ability to spot the technologies of tomorrow. Yes the mouse existed eons before the Mac had one, however, it didn't seem to find a place in everyday computing until Apple and Jobs put it next to a Mac and said 'there you go use it' it kinda took the 'skill' out of using a computer. I would put serious money on the Atari ST not having a mouse if the Mac didn't have one! Apple's innovation can get a little overhyped but I think it's silly to pretend that Apple not have really shaken up the industry especially in the last 10 or so years. You know, Led Zeppelin didn't invent the blues, but that's essentially all they play and I think few would discount their impact on the shape of music today (not that chart crap though!).


To the Topic Starter - Steve Jobs was a clever man who had great drive and ambition, and for that I have a lot of respect, but he is not the messiah, his company made available for sale some products that people find really useful and help them produce some great things and some of those things have changed how people work etc. And it's great that you have found a computer platform you have a great deal of belief in but are you sure Steve Jobs really had that much of an effect on your life? Give credit where credit is due, the real thing he can be credited with is pushing products to market that have changed the way we interact with technology and that's his real contribution to the world!



Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Bryce on 10:25, 17 November 11
If you have to work in a room, do you pick the one with grey walls, bare floors and horrible lighting? Or one that is comfortable filled with IKEA furniture and pleasant to be in?

So there's three rooms? A grey one, a comfortable/pleasant  one, and one that has Ikea furniture in it? :D

Otherwise I see your point, but don't share the opinion. I don't find Apple computers (especially their laptops) warm, fuzzy or nice to work on. I much prefer the look and feel of other laptop makers, and my OS of choice is Linux (that's the one where OSX gets all its ideas, so it might be familiar to you :D )

Bryce. 
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Gryzor on 12:53, 17 November 11
Badstarr, a great post.

I agree with almost everything you said. The aesthetics is (are?) obviously way ahead (regardless of whether you like it or not, actually). But, like Bryce, I don't consider them to be either warm or fuzzy, quite the opposite actually. And although I used to love the MacOS interface, I think it's getting a bit long in the tooth nowadays. I now prefer my toned-down, slightly customized Win7 interface to be honest. Can't wait to see what the next step will be for Apple in that regards (if there's ever any).
Title: Re: In honour of Steve Jobs - first Apple experience/hardware? Was it great?
Post by: Badstarr on 18:54, 17 November 11
You're absolutely right Bryce, OS X owes a hell of a lot to Linux, and some of the tweeks Apple have made have found their way back into Linux too. Apple fanboys forget OS Xs debt to Linux. I personally use OS X because it's the only OS that I can run my creative software, Reason 6, Cubase and Logic (obviously the last one is Apple only any way) with real stability. Windows has made a quantum leap with 7 but I just can't get used to its interface now, it seems counter intuitive to me. I like the way the menu bar changes context in OS X with the selected window/app so you don't have to pull the window into view to control it. If Linux could run my creative apps I would give it serious consideration. For now OS X is my OS of choice (and I don't necessarily run it on Apple hardware all of the time  ;) ) I don't think I like where Apple are taking it with Lion, I think it's soon going to turn into an over grown iPhone OS and when that happens my OS X days will be numbered!