Author Topic: What do I need to record video from the real machine?  (Read 7180 times)

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Offline mr_lou

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Seeing as I need to record a lot of videos, and I'm not exactly satisfied with screen capture software because it results in lost frames (because there's no sync), and I can't get acceptable results with WinAPE's own video-save function - I'm curious about what it takes to be able to record video from the real machine.

What kind of equipment do I need?

It'll need to detect that it's receiving a 50 Hz signal, and then produce a 50 fps uncompressed video with absolutely no lost frames whatsoever.

What do I need to buy to be able to do this?


Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #1 on: 14:16, 05 October 15 »
Seeing as I need to record a lot of videos, and I'm not exactly satisfied with screen capture software because it results in lost frames (because there's no sync), and I can't get acceptable results with WinAPE's own video-save function - I'm curious about what it takes to be able to record video from the real machine.

What kind of equipment do I need?

It'll need to detect that it's receiving a 50 Hz signal, and then produce a 50 fps uncompressed video with absolutely no lost frames whatsoever.

What do I need to buy to be able to do this?


You need a capture card capable of capturing full frame component video and a way of converting RGB to component.


My preferred way of converting and de-interlacing RGB video signals is to use a high end DVD recorder as a live pass through which turns the RGB into a 50fps component signal ready for capture. I can also tweak the de-interlacing, black level, white level and other aspects of the picture live.


Uncompressed video is hugely wasteful when you can use near lossless professional video codecs such as Apple Prores. If Prores is good enough for broadcasters then its good enough for me.


However, be warned that getting the CPC's output into a state where modern devices will accept it can be a challenge. Check out the thread where I spent most of Saturday messing around with a Plus and a SCART lead to find a solution to the picture distortion problems I was having.


For the CPC alone, the capture card I wanted and a second hand Pioneer DVD recorder with the required spec cost about £250 in total. That excludes leads, a new soldering iron, a draw full of bits of SCART connectors, resistors and much swearing (while you can buy ready made leads for old machines, I've found myself tearing about 25% of them apart and rewiring them for a better picture or just to get them working).


In actual fact I have ended up with 4 DVD recorders (although I'm now using 2) as I have so many machines some bits of kit just won't play ball.


And note, the DVD recorder itself is never actually used. It just processes the signal live. It never goes near the MPEG encoding stage.
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Offline invent

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #2 on: 15:26, 05 October 15 »
Hi mr_lou,


Not sure if this helps but I bought an egato capture card for Mac to capture a game I created and needed highest quality". I used Elgar capture card Game Capture HD | elgato.com


Not sure how it might work for you connecting , it has hdmi and svideo.
It's for PC and Mac and has excellent built in video editor.




Good luck :)



Enjoying/Creating Retro Games

Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #3 on: 15:51, 05 October 15 »
I like the idea of using a DVD recorder.
But why only use it as a pass-through? Why not let the DVD recorder record the video?

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #4 on: 15:58, 05 October 15 »
I like the idea of using a DVD recorder.
But why only use it as a pass-through? Why not let the DVD recorder record the video?


Because it will encode it using the elderly MPEG 2 codec at a low bitrate and will not deinterlace it (it'll save it as 50i not 50p). Then you'll have to rip it, deinterlace, etc. All hassle.


You yourself mentioned you wanted an uncompressed codec. I don't agree with that because there are plenty of options available but there's no way I would use MPEG2.


I did do initial tests with just a DVD recorder before I started ChinnyVision. Didn't like the results and hassle. Direct recording (for me) is the way to go.


If on a budget it will work but I prefer the direct capture option.
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #5 on: 20:23, 31 December 15 »
Finally had some time to proceed with this part of my project.

I decided to buy two devices:
First a SCART->HDMI converter (about 45 euro)
And then a socalled "game capture" device (139 euro)
(add shipping cost)

These two devices should allow me to record video without even using a PC, meaning I don't have to move whatever device I want to record from, close to my PC.

Well it sounds great in theory anyway. I'll let you know how it works out when the devices arrive.  :)

Offline Munchausen

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #6 on: 23:27, 31 December 15 »
Is there anything wrong with an s-video converter and an analog capture card?

Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #7 on: 07:01, 01 January 16 »
Is there anything wrong with an s-video converter and an analog capture card?

Well if you run Windows and don't mind moving devices close to your PC, then that option is probably fine.
But I'm running Linux, so I'm assuming that finding a capture card + software that works requires a bit more effort than on Windows.
And I also really like not needing to move the source device close to my PC.

I don't know exactly what capture cards offer, but this solution also allows me to record from a Blu-ray player, so I can create a video for YouTube demonstrating my project when it's done.

Offline Munchausen

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #8 on: 12:08, 01 January 16 »
Well if you run Windows and don't mind moving devices close to your PC, then that option is probably fine.
But I'm running Linux, so I'm assuming that finding a capture card + software that works requires a bit more effort than on Windows.
And I also really like not needing to move the source device close to my PC.

I don't know exactly what capture cards offer, but this solution also allows me to record from a Blu-ray player, so I can create a video for YouTube demonstrating my project when it's done.

That makes sense. I also use linux (and haiku, but no windows or mac os). There is a good range of software for the older analogue capture cards, both PCI and USB, the ones I've tried all worked without issues using v4l2 (video for linux 2) drivers and then virtually any media viewer/recorder. I haven't used them for years but used to at uni when I was an undergrad to play consoles through my monitor when I didn't have a TV. I didn't know if there was some deeper issue about video quality using this solution though, but I certainly didn't notice any problems back then (if anything the quality was much better than I would get on a TV).

Offline Bryce

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #9 on: 13:21, 01 January 16 »
Is there anything wrong with an s-video converter and an analog capture card?

If the game or demo uses CRTC trickery to achieve certain effects, then the capture card will flicker during these. For most other stuff they are fine though.

Bryce.

Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #10 on: 14:00, 01 January 16 »
If the game or demo uses CRTC trickery to achieve certain effects, then the capture card will flicker during these. For most other stuff they are fine though.

Doesn't this apply for one of those "game capture" devices too?

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #11 on: 14:15, 01 January 16 »
If the game or demo uses CRTC trickery to achieve certain effects, then the capture card will flicker during these. For most other stuff they are fine though.

Bryce.


The only thing I've had a problem with so far was Prehistorik 2 and I'm pretty confident I could overcome it given time and a bit of soldering.
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Offline CraigsBar

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #12 on: 14:45, 01 January 16 »
I have found that my black magic card captures anything from svideo and scart to HDMI. Will run a test with prehistorik 2 if you like.
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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #13 on: 00:34, 02 January 16 »
@CraigsBar


?? Black Magic card ,  Do you have a link please


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Offline CraigsBar

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #14 on: 02:32, 02 January 16 »
@CraigsBar


?? Black Magic card ,  Do you have a link please


Thanks  Ray
Sure....

The one I have is the intensity pro, this is the 'upgraded' replacement card.... Which seems to have dropped rgb and scart in favour of 4k... Damn that's progress I s'pose, seems it still handles svideo tho.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensitypro4k

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« Last Edit: 02:38, 02 January 16 by CraigsBar »
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #15 on: 16:22, 07 January 16 »
Well, I've received the SCART -> HDMI upscaler today.

Rather disappointing.

First, there was a lot of noise on the audio-side. Actually sounded like some component in the TV was burning up.
But this audio-noise went away after some minutes.

Connecting my CPC464 to it, shows a picture alright, but then it disappears, then comes back, then disappears etc.
Connecting my CPC+ also shows a picture, but it's distorted and does something kinda like a flicker sometimes, like it can't figure out the scaling properly.
It behaves like this with 2 different TV sets.

Connecting my Amiga seems to work alright though....

I still have a little hope that maybe the Game Capture device will receive a better signal than my TV sets does.... but I probably shouldn't count on it...

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #16 on: 17:47, 07 January 16 »
Well, I've received the SCART -> HDMI upscaler today.

Rather disappointing.



Well yeah, that's why I told you to use a DVD recorder as the converter. All those cheap upscalers are rubbish. 10 quids worth of cheap electronics with over sharpened pictures that often lose sync. I was using one at a friends house the other day with a Spectrum. It looked awful.


You need to sort the sync voltage on your CPC output. Use a cap or a 1.5v battery. That will at least sort the loss of picture sync.
« Last Edit: 17:54, 07 January 16 by chinnyhill10 »
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #17 on: 18:07, 07 January 16 »
Well yeah, that's why I told you to use a DVD recorder as the converter. All those cheap upscalers are rubbish. 10 quids worth of cheap electronics with over sharpened pictures that often lose sync.

Well, I found two reviews that applauded this one a lot. Compared two SCART->HDMI devices and this one won.
So I thought it would work. But no.
I'm tempted to buy another one, but it'll probably not be any better since the price is about the same. Dunno.

You need to sort the sync voltage on your CPC output. Use a cap or a 1.5v battery. That will at least sort the loss of picture sync.

Are you saying if I add 1,5volt the picture will stay?

Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #18 on: 20:06, 07 January 16 »
@Bryce? Do you think I can fix the picture coming/going issue by adding 1,5v to the SCART in?
If yes, can I buy such a cable from you?

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #19 on: 20:27, 07 January 16 »
Well, I found two reviews that applauded this one a lot. Compared two SCART->HDMI devices and this one won.
So I thought it would work. But no.
I'm tempted to buy another one, but it'll probably not be any better since the price is about the same. Dunno.

Are you saying if I add 1,5volt the picture will stay?


Most people reviewing these things have no idea of what they are looking at and are generally inept. I have 3 or 4 of these devices around here. All rubbish. All had good reviews..... good reviews from imbeciles it seems.


And yes, adding 1.5v or putting a cap on the sync line seems to solve problems where a device won't hold sync. Although I won't guarantee it as I don't know your device. But worked a treat here and for others.
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #20 on: 20:45, 07 January 16 »
Most people reviewing these things have no idea of what they are looking at and are generally inept. I have 3 or 4 of these devices around here. All rubbish. All had good reviews..... good reviews from imbeciles it seems.

Well would you recommend buying a Framemeister then?
I'll need some japan->european scart converter cable then too I suppose.

And yes, adding 1.5v or putting a cap on the sync line seems to solve problems where a device won't hold sync. Although I won't guarantee it as I don't know your device. But worked a treat here and for others.

Hm yes, I suppose it makes sense that the device keeps searching for a signal, and doesn't know if it's getting an RGB signal because of a missing 1,5v on pin 16.
I'll get my hands on a cable with 1,5v on pin 16 then...

Stay tuned...

Offline Bryce

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #21 on: 22:17, 07 January 16 »
@Bryce? Do you think I can fix the picture coming/going issue by adding 1,5v to the SCART in?
If yes, can I buy such a cable from you?

It depends why the picture is coming and going. If it's loosing sync, then the 1.5V or capacitor won't help. Does your TV have an OSD that says "SCART 2" or whatever when it detects a signal? Does this appear every time the picture comes back?

Bryce.

P.s. I don't really make cables. Ebay is flooded with them.
« Last Edit: 22:59, 07 January 16 by Bryce »

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #22 on: 22:54, 07 January 16 »
It dependswhy the picture is coming and going. If it's loosing sync, then the 1.5V or capacitor won't help.


Yes it will. It was what I demonstrably showed a couple of months back. My Plus worked but TV kept losing sync. Battery solved it.
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Offline Bryce

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #23 on: 23:05, 07 January 16 »
Your TV wasn't loosing sync, it was having problems detecting which input to use. The battery has zero effect on the sync. It's connected to Pin 16, which is the input select pin -> Tells the TV whether it should display the Composite, S-Video or RGB signal of the SCART port. That's why I've asked mr_lou whether the OSD appears when the picture comes back, this would suggest that the input selection is the problem.

Bryce.

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #24 on: 23:10, 07 January 16 »
Your TV wasn't loosing sync, it was having problems detecting which input to use. The battery has zero effect on the sync. It's connected to Pin 16, which is the input select pin -> Tells the TV whether it should display the Composite, S-Video or RGB signal of the SCART port. That's why I've asked mr_lou whether the OSD appears when the picture comes back, this would suggest that the input selection is the problem.

Bryce.


Question of semantics but to the same end. Good explanation here but the bottom paragraph sums it up:


Composite video vs composite sync
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