Author Topic: What do I need to record video from the real machine?  (Read 8680 times)

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Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #25 on: 23:15, 07 January 16 »
Well would you recommend buying a Framemeister then?
I'll need some japan->european scart converter cable then too I suppose.



No, I told you the cheapest and best capture option a while back. A 2nd hand high quality DVD recorder with component out. Pioneers are a good bet and are extremely tweakable (black level, white level, deinterlacing, DNR, etc). They'll give you a lovely clean live component signal which you can capture.


Yep Framemeisters are great but they cost a lot of money. You can sort yourself out with a good DVD recorder for a quarter of a Framemeister. Doesn't matter if the drive is broken etc. All you want is the signal processing side of the unit to be working.


That said I will get a Framemeister at some stage because less and less TV's have SCART and they are small and portable.
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Offline dodogildo

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #26 on: 23:19, 07 January 16 »



Most people reviewing these things have no idea of what they are looking at and are generally inept. I have 3 or 4 of these devices around here. All rubbish. All had good reviews..... good reviews from imbeciles it seems.


Yet, you bought same rubbish for 3 or 4 times.. Hmm..

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #27 on: 23:28, 07 January 16 »

Yet, you bought same rubbish for 3 or 4 times.. Hmm..


Yep, to test them. Anything wrong with that? Especially since none of them cost me the retail price.
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Offline Bryce

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #28 on: 23:54, 07 January 16 »

Question of semantics but to the same end. Good explanation here but the bottom paragraph sums it up:


Composite video vs composite sync

The CSync signal on the CPC is actually one of the best of any retro computer I know of (and I know many). It's extremely clean - very little noise, stable in both level and frequency and very close to the required standard. It definitely doesn't need a sync stripper like some consoles do and even then some won't even sync well when using one, such as the Spectrum +2/+3.

The battery fixes the TV, not the CPC :)

Bryce.

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #29 on: 00:03, 08 January 16 »


The battery fixes the TV, not the CPC :)

Bryce.


I agree with regards to the original CPC's. Easy to capture from, super clean and stable picture that never gives me any issues.


But my 464 Plus seems to cause issues when there is a lot of white or with overscan modes both for the TV, and for my capture setup. Battery solved that.


And if Mr_Lou or anyone else want more details of what I am using, they should DM me as I can furnish them with model numbers, photos, settings for different machines etc so they can replicate it. I'd rather not do it in the thread with everyone and their mother chipping in. I've got a setup, it works, that's it.  :D
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Offline Bryce

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #30 on: 00:28, 08 January 16 »
Yes, the Classics do seem to be better than the Plus, but they vary too. I've seen both very good and very questionable output from Pluses.

Definitely agree that a DVD player is the best converter, but be careful when you are buying. The older ones are excellent, but the latest low cost DVD players can be as bad as some TVs for being fussy about the Sync signal.
Don't buy if you haven't had confirmation that the model works well. What models have you tested? Have you tried the Sony DVP SR370B ? You can buy them new for €38!

Bryce.

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #31 on: 00:43, 08 January 16 »

Don't buy if you haven't had confirmation that the model works well. What models have you tested? Have you tried the Sony DVP SR370B ? You can buy them new for €38!

Bryce.


Pioneer LX60D works very well. For a start it allows you to turn the automatic gain control off. The sister models should also work well. Pioneer are a high end brand and allow you to adjust settings that are usually done automatically in other units. Stuff like automatic gain controls are bad as they can vary the picture brightness and you will have no control over it.
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #32 on: 04:54, 08 January 16 »
It depends why the picture is coming and going. If it's loosing sync, then the 1.5V or capacitor won't help. Does your TV have an OSD that says "SCART 2" or whatever when it detects a signal? Does this appear every time the picture comes back?

The cable works fine on all of the TV's I've used it with so far.
It's the SCART->HDMI converter that does this can't-make-up-its-mind thingy.
There's no display on the converter, but it's connected to the TV and the OSD of the TV does display "HDMI2" (and "720p" or "1080p" depending on my choice on the converter) whenever the picture comes back.

P.s. I don't really make cables. Ebay is flooded with them.

Yes, but there doesn't seem to be any Amstrad CPC SCART cables with the 1,5v added.
Anyway, I've asked retrocomputershack to make me one.

I noticed something in the description of his cable though:
"Additional components, resistors, are fitted inside the Scart plug, to ensure the video signals, are at the correct levels".
Amstrad CPC 464 & 6128 High Quality GOLD PLATED RGB Scart Cable TV Video Lead |
Amstrad CPC 464 & 6128 High Quality GOLD PLATED RGB Scart Cable TV Video Lead |

I haven't added any resistors inside my own cables. How "important" is this in your opinion?


EDIT: I read the wiki about the resistors.
« Last Edit: 06:57, 08 January 16 by mr_lou »

Offline Bryce

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #33 on: 10:18, 08 January 16 »
The problem with most of the cheap converters, whether they convert to VGA, HDMI or whatever, is that they use digital sampling to sync the input. This means that the device waits for the first valid VSync signal and then just samples at 15Khz relative to this. If your computer is putting out a 14.9Khz or 15.1Khz VSync, then the first few 100 frames will still be within the "window" that the device samples, but then the two devices go out of sync and the converter needs to find the VSync signal again. This is the classic flicker that happens every few seconds and there's no easy way to get around it.

Bryce.

Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #34 on: 11:01, 08 January 16 »
The problem with most of the cheap converters, whether they convert to VGA, HDMI or whatever, is that they use digital sampling to sync the input. This means that the device waits for the first valid VSync signal and then just samples at 15Khz relative to this. If your computer is putting out a 14.9Khz or 15.1Khz VSync, then the first few 100 frames will still be within the "window" that the device samples, but then the two devices go out of sync and the converter needs to find the VSync signal again. This is the classic flicker that happens every few seconds and there's no easy way to get around it.

No easy way? Didn't you just say that it would be fixed by adding a 100uF capacitor?

What about a Framemeister then? Would that work fine?
Is there any SCART->HDMI device at all that you can give your blessing?
« Last Edit: 11:03, 08 January 16 by mr_lou »

Offline Bryce

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #35 on: 11:47, 08 January 16 »
No. The capacitor helps if the receiving device (TV or Converter) is having troubles deciding what SCART input to sample (Composite/S-Video/RGB). The cheap converters and modern TVs have the problem that the need a very stable and exact 15Khz Sync. These are two completely different problems, that unfortunately get confused and both called "sync problems", although only one is really a sync problem.
If the computer isn't outputting exactly 15Khz, then digital sampling may have problems. This never happened on analogue CRTs because they don't sample the Vsync, they use it directly to drive the CRT.

Bryce.

Offline CraigsBar

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #36 on: 12:10, 08 January 16 »
As my new 48" 4k TV has no scart input anyway I see me buying a framemeister next month, to allow me to use my original Xbox with coinops and the various retro consoles I have now bought again including the gx4000.

Will let you know how I get on with it soon.
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #37 on: 13:02, 08 January 16 »
No. The capacitor helps if the receiving device (TV or Converter) is having troubles deciding what SCART input to sample (Composite/S-Video/RGB). The cheap converters and modern TVs have the problem that the need a very stable and exact 15Khz Sync. These are two completely different problems, that unfortunately get confused and both called "sync problems", although only one is really a sync problem.
If the computer isn't outputting exactly 15Khz, then digital sampling may have problems. This never happened on analogue CRTs because they don't sample the Vsync, they use it directly to drive the CRT.

Oh....

Well ok then....

Does anyone know what the ultimate solution is then, to convert an Amstrad CPC video signal into an HDMI signal?

Is the Framemeister the ultimate solution?
I'm not seeing any clear answer on this.
Is it because no one knows?

Offline Munchausen

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #38 on: 13:11, 08 January 16 »
What about a modded GBS-8200 and a VGA->HDMI converter? That ought to work well I think? I don't know how the GBS8200 deals with advanced effects though. Perhaps the cheapest way to achieve it, much less than a framemeister, but more work to mod it (add a PI-zero, arduino or similar and possibly have to reduce RAM frequency to remove "speckles").

Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #39 on: 14:15, 08 January 16 »
I just found in another thread that @TotO bought the same SCART->HDMI converter as I did (although a lot cheaper than I did) and experienced the same sync problems.
RGB adapter to SVideo/Composite for CPC based on AD724

In that thread @Bryce also says you need to stick with CRT in order to keep all CRT tricks.

This makes me wonder.
What if I plug the Amstrad CPC into a CRT TV, and then connect another SCART cable from the same TV to the SCART->HDMI converter, and then connect that HDMI output to a the "Game Capture" device that does the recording. I know the CRT displays everything the way it should. The question is if a SCART output from such a CRT TV screen is better than the SCART output from the CPC - or if it's just a pass-through thingy....

Offline Bryce

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #40 on: 14:47, 08 January 16 »
In most cases they were justr pass-thru unfortunately. As chinnyhill said, the best solution is an early DVD Player that converts the signal from SCART to Component.

Bryce.

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #41 on: 15:00, 08 January 16 »

This makes me wonder.
What if I plug the Amstrad CPC into a CRT TV, and then connect another SCART cable from the same TV to the SCART->HDMI converter, and then connect that HDMI output to a the "Game Capture" device that does the recording. I know the CRT displays everything the way it should. The question is if a SCART output from such a CRT TV screen is better than the SCART output from the CPC - or if it's just a pass-through thingy....


You are overthinking this. That won't work.


Go and get a good second hand DVD recorder. A Pioneer. If you can get the specific model I listed it will work. But I suspect all Pioneers will.
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #42 on: 15:13, 08 January 16 »
Hm, well, there's a used Pioneer LX61D for sale at the moment, but he wants 250 euro for it.
Doesn't a Framemeister cost almost the same?

And why won't anyone tell me whether a Framemeister is the holy grail or not?

Is a DVD Recorder really a better option than a Framemeister?

EDIT: I want to use my "Game Capture" device to record the video. I don't have a capture-card in my PC. And a DVD Recorder doesn't have a HDMI out, does it? So I'll have to use the SCART->HDMI upscaler anyway in order to use my "Game Capture" device to record the video?
« Last Edit: 15:20, 08 January 16 by mr_lou »

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #43 on: 15:16, 08 January 16 »
Oh....

Well ok then....

Does anyone know what the ultimate solution is then, to convert an Amstrad CPC video signal into an HDMI signal?

Is the Framemeister the ultimate solution?
I'm not seeing any clear answer on this.
Is it because no one knows?


That's why I said DM me so I could be sure you'd actually get the information.




The Framemeister is great *BUT* it is very expensive. Don't be fooled by the Yen price, everyone I know who has one got stung for import duty and handling as well. I see the seller now offers an option where you can pre-pay the import duty which I'd strongly recommend.


On top of the Framemeister you'll need cables and a lot of time fiddling around with it (and leaning the difference between Japansese and European SCART etc). I think it now comes with English firmware but it used to always default to Japanese. English overlays for the remote can also be purchased. Probably best to set aside about £300 for a Framemeister and everything you'll need (£250 for the unit, and another £50 for cables and a power supply). That's about 400 Euros. You can of course try and get lucky and avoid the import taxes (although as others have found out that can end up costing you far more) and simply use the Japanese PSU with an adaptor (something I'd not recommend).


I've given you the cheapest solution for recording. A high quality second hand DVD recorder to act as a pass through. The Pioneer model I mentioned gives extremely high quality output, you can adjust all aspects of the picture and it has standard RGB SCART, S-Video and composite in and can output analogue component video which means minimum conversion artefacts (as RGB is so close to component anyway).


If you are insisting on capturing HDMI then you'll have to use the Framemiester as obviously DVD recorders will often have the copy protection set on the HDMI output and given the struggles you appear to be having with analogue video, you certainly won't be able to strip the copy protection out.




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Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #44 on: 15:20, 08 January 16 »
Hm, well, there's a used Pioneer LX61D for sale at the moment, but he wants 250 euro for it.
Doesn't a Framemeister cost almost the same?

And why won't anyone tell me whether a Framemeister is the holy grail or not?

Is a DVD Recorder really a better option than a Framemeister?


Mine was just under £100.


None of this is cheap or easy. I don't think you realise quite how much blood, sweat and money it took to get a capture setup that works for about 20 different machines let alone just a CPC!
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #45 on: 15:56, 08 January 16 »
If you are insisting on capturing HDMI then you'll have to use the Framemiester

Alright. Yes, I'm insisting on using my "Game Capture" device.

None of this is cheap or easy. I don't think you realise quite how much blood, sweat and money it took to get a capture setup that works for about 20 different machines let alone just a CPC!

I was actually set on just recording from emulators, but as I need to create videos from both the Philips Videopac G7000, the Amstrad CPC and the Amiga - and only the Amiga emulator produced a decent result, then I started looking into recording from the real machine.

But since I'm running Linux on a fairly old computer, getting a capture card working (fast enough too) is most likely not an option.
I also prefer being able to record from anywhere, rather than needing all devices right next to my computer.

So I guess it's gonna be the Framemeister then... gonna look further into it.

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #46 on: 16:07, 08 January 16 »
Alright. Yes, I'm insisting on using my "Game Capture" device.

I was actually set on just recording from emulators, but as I need to create videos from both the Philips Videopac G7000, the Amstrad CPC and the Amiga - and only the Amiga emulator produced a decent result, then I started looking into recording from the real machine.

But since I'm running Linux on a fairly old computer, getting a capture card working (fast enough too) is most likely not an option.
I also prefer being able to record from anywhere, rather than needing all devices right next to my computer.

So I guess it's gonna be the Framemeister then... gonna look further into it.


Well if you are happy with emulators why on earth not use screen capture? You don't have to use the emulators own capture.


No utilities available for Linux? Full 50fps capture with audio is usually fairly trivial.
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #47 on: 16:45, 08 January 16 »
Well if you are happy with emulators why on earth not use screen capture? You don't have to use the emulators own capture.

No utilities available for Linux? Full 50fps capture with audio is usually fairly trivial.

Because I can't get a decent result.

Odessey II emulator O2EM produces 60 fps, so I obviously set my screen capture program to 60 fps too, but it still drops frames. Logically because there's no sync between the emulator and the screen capture program. And also, O2EM doesn't reproduce the real machine that great. It places sprites slightly off, for example.
Further more I didn't use an Odessey II. I used a Philips Videopac G7000 which only produces 50 fps, so I'd rather have a 50 fps video.

I didn't say I was happy with emulators. Just said I was set on using emulators, meaning I had accepted to use emulators because recording from the real device seemed too complex.
I didn't know it was almost just as complex recording from emulators.

Offline chinnyhill10

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #48 on: 17:21, 08 January 16 »
Because I can't get a decent result.

Odessey II emulator O2EM produces 60 fps, so I obviously set my screen capture program to 60 fps too, but it still drops frames. Logically because there's no sync between the emulator and the screen capture program. And also, O2EM doesn't reproduce the real machine that great. It places sprites slightly off, for example.
Further more I didn't use an Odessey II. I used a Philips Videopac G7000 which only produces 50 fps, so I'd rather have a 50 fps video.

I don't know what setup you are using, but run the emulator in a window at its native size and then capture just that window (you can upscale it when editing). This will reduce the CPU overhead and should give you a better result
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Offline mr_lou

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Re: What do I need to record video from the real machine?
« Reply #49 on: 18:37, 08 January 16 »
I don't know what setup you are using, but run the emulator in a window at its native size and then capture just that window (you can upscale it when editing). This will reduce the CPU overhead and should give you a better result

That's exactly what I did. And that's only 160x200 pixels (for O2EM), but it still drops frames.


As far as expenses go, "8bit Stories" has already cost me a lot more than I thought it would. Various blu-ray players has been bought for testing purposes, and I can't even count how many BD-R discs I've used while testing.
Obviously a Framemeister wasn't exactly on the list of things I expected to buy, but I have to get one since I want to have these videos in the project...

I'm doing what I have to do in order to complete this project.
« Last Edit: 18:56, 08 January 16 by mr_lou »