Seeing as I need to record a lot of videos, and I'm not exactly satisfied with screen capture software because it results in lost frames (because there's no sync), and I can't get acceptable results with WinAPE's own video-save function - I'm curious about what it takes to be able to record video from the real machine.
What kind of equipment do I need?
It'll need to detect that it's receiving a 50 Hz signal, and then produce a 50 fps uncompressed video with absolutely no lost frames whatsoever.
What do I need to buy to be able to do this?
Quote from: mr_lou on 05:58, 05 October 15
Seeing as I need to record a lot of videos, and I'm not exactly satisfied with screen capture software because it results in lost frames (because there's no sync), and I can't get acceptable results with WinAPE's own video-save function - I'm curious about what it takes to be able to record video from the real machine.
What kind of equipment do I need?
It'll need to detect that it's receiving a 50 Hz signal, and then produce a 50 fps uncompressed video with absolutely no lost frames whatsoever.
What do I need to buy to be able to do this?
You need a capture card capable of capturing full frame component video and a way of converting RGB to component.
My preferred way of converting and de-interlacing RGB video signals is to use a high end DVD recorder as a live pass through which turns the RGB into a 50fps component signal ready for capture. I can also tweak the de-interlacing, black level, white level and other aspects of the picture live.
Uncompressed video is hugely wasteful when you can use near lossless professional video codecs such as Apple Prores. If Prores is good enough for broadcasters then its good enough for me.
However, be warned that getting the CPC's output into a state where modern devices will accept it can be a challenge. Check out the thread where I spent most of Saturday messing around with a Plus and a SCART lead to find a solution to the picture distortion problems I was having.
For the CPC alone, the capture card I wanted and a second hand Pioneer DVD recorder with the required spec cost about £250 in total. That excludes leads, a new soldering iron, a draw full of bits of SCART connectors, resistors and much swearing (while you can buy ready made leads for old machines, I've found myself tearing about 25% of them apart and rewiring them for a better picture or just to get them working).
In actual fact I have ended up with 4 DVD recorders (although I'm now using 2) as I have so many machines some bits of kit just won't play ball.
And note, the DVD recorder itself is never actually used. It just processes the signal live. It never goes near the MPEG encoding stage.
Hi mr_lou,
Not sure if this helps but I bought an egato capture card for Mac to capture a game I created and needed highest quality". I used Elgar capture card Game Capture HD | elgato.com (https://www.elgato.com/en/gaming/gamecapture-hd)
Not sure how it might work for you connecting , it has hdmi and svideo.
It's for PC and Mac and has excellent built in video editor.
Good luck :)
I like the idea of using a DVD recorder.
But why only use it as a pass-through? Why not let the DVD recorder record the video?
Quote from: mr_lou on 13:51, 05 October 15
I like the idea of using a DVD recorder.
But why only use it as a pass-through? Why not let the DVD recorder record the video?
Because it will encode it using the elderly MPEG 2 codec at a low bitrate and will not deinterlace it (it'll save it as 50i not 50p). Then you'll have to rip it, deinterlace, etc. All hassle.
You yourself mentioned you wanted an uncompressed codec. I don't agree with that because there are plenty of options available but there's no way I would use MPEG2.
I did do initial tests with just a DVD recorder before I started ChinnyVision. Didn't like the results and hassle. Direct recording (for me) is the way to go.
If on a budget it will work but I prefer the direct capture option.
Finally had some time to proceed with this part of my project.
I decided to buy two devices:
First a SCART->HDMI converter (about 45 euro)
And then a socalled "game capture" device (139 euro)
(add shipping cost)
These two devices should allow me to record video without even using a PC, meaning I don't have to move whatever device I want to record from, close to my PC.
Well it sounds great in theory anyway. I'll let you know how it works out when the devices arrive. :)
Is there anything wrong with an s-video converter and an analog capture card?
Quote from: Munchausen on 22:27, 31 December 15
Is there anything wrong with an s-video converter and an analog capture card?
Well if you run Windows and don't mind moving devices close to your PC, then that option is probably fine.
But I'm running Linux, so I'm assuming that finding a capture card + software that works requires a bit more effort than on Windows.
And I also really like not needing to move the source device close to my PC.
I don't know exactly what capture cards offer, but this solution also allows me to record from a Blu-ray player, so I can create a video for YouTube demonstrating my project when it's done.
Quote from: mr_lou on 06:01, 01 January 16
Well if you run Windows and don't mind moving devices close to your PC, then that option is probably fine.
But I'm running Linux, so I'm assuming that finding a capture card + software that works requires a bit more effort than on Windows.
And I also really like not needing to move the source device close to my PC.
I don't know exactly what capture cards offer, but this solution also allows me to record from a Blu-ray player, so I can create a video for YouTube demonstrating my project when it's done.
That makes sense. I also use linux (and haiku, but no windows or mac os). There is a good range of software for the older analogue capture cards, both PCI and USB, the ones I've tried all worked without issues using v4l2 (video for linux 2) drivers and then virtually any media viewer/recorder. I haven't used them for years but used to at uni when I was an undergrad to play consoles through my monitor when I didn't have a TV. I didn't know if there was some deeper issue about video quality using this solution though, but I certainly didn't notice any problems back then (if anything the quality was much better than I would get on a TV).
Quote from: Munchausen on 22:27, 31 December 15
Is there anything wrong with an s-video converter and an analog capture card?
If the game or demo uses CRTC trickery to achieve certain effects, then the capture card will flicker during these. For most other stuff they are fine though.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 12:21, 01 January 16
If the game or demo uses CRTC trickery to achieve certain effects, then the capture card will flicker during these. For most other stuff they are fine though.
Doesn't this apply for one of those "game capture" devices too?
Quote from: Bryce on 12:21, 01 January 16
If the game or demo uses CRTC trickery to achieve certain effects, then the capture card will flicker during these. For most other stuff they are fine though.
Bryce.
The only thing I've had a problem with so far was Prehistorik 2 and I'm pretty confident I could overcome it given time and a bit of soldering.
I have found that my black magic card captures anything from svideo and scart to HDMI. Will run a test with prehistorik 2 if you like.
@CraigsBar (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=482)
?? Black Magic card , Do you have a link please
Thanks Ray
Quote from: Audronic on 23:34, 01 January 16
@CraigsBar (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=482)
?? Black Magic card , Do you have a link please
Thanks Ray
Sure....
The one I have is the intensity pro, this is the 'upgraded' replacement card.... Which seems to have dropped rgb and scart in favour of 4k... Damn that's progress I s'pose, seems it still handles svideo tho.
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensitypro4k
Sent from my A3-A30 using Tapatalk
Well, I've received the SCART -> HDMI upscaler today.
Rather disappointing.
First, there was a lot of noise on the audio-side. Actually sounded like some component in the TV was burning up.
But this audio-noise went away after some minutes.
Connecting my CPC464 to it, shows a picture alright, but then it disappears, then comes back, then disappears etc.
Connecting my CPC+ also shows a picture, but it's distorted and does something kinda like a flicker sometimes, like it can't figure out the scaling properly.
It behaves like this with 2 different TV sets.
Connecting my Amiga seems to work alright though....
I still have a little hope that maybe the Game Capture device will receive a better signal than my TV sets does.... but I probably shouldn't count on it...
Quote from: mr_lou on 15:22, 07 January 16
Well, I've received the SCART -> HDMI upscaler today.
Rather disappointing.
Well yeah, that's why I told you to use a DVD recorder as the converter. All those cheap upscalers are rubbish. 10 quids worth of cheap electronics with over sharpened pictures that often lose sync. I was using one at a friends house the other day with a Spectrum. It looked awful.
You need to sort the sync voltage on your CPC output. Use a cap or a 1.5v battery. That will at least sort the loss of picture sync.
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 16:47, 07 January 16Well yeah, that's why I told you to use a DVD recorder as the converter. All those cheap upscalers are rubbish. 10 quids worth of cheap electronics with over sharpened pictures that often lose sync.
Well, I found two reviews that applauded this one a lot. Compared two SCART->HDMI devices and this one won.
So I thought it would work. But no.
I'm tempted to buy another one, but it'll probably not be any better since the price is about the same. Dunno.
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 16:47, 07 January 16You need to sort the sync voltage on your CPC output. Use a cap or a 1.5v battery. That will at least sort the loss of picture sync.
Are you saying if I add 1,5volt the picture will stay?
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225)? Do you think I can fix the picture coming/going issue by adding 1,5v to the SCART in?
If yes, can I buy such a cable from you?
Quote from: mr_lou on 17:07, 07 January 16
Well, I found two reviews that applauded this one a lot. Compared two SCART->HDMI devices and this one won.
So I thought it would work. But no.
I'm tempted to buy another one, but it'll probably not be any better since the price is about the same. Dunno.
Are you saying if I add 1,5volt the picture will stay?
Most people reviewing these things have no idea of what they are looking at and are generally inept. I have 3 or 4 of these devices around here. All rubbish. All had good reviews..... good reviews from imbeciles it seems.
And yes, adding 1.5v or putting a cap on the sync line seems to solve problems where a device won't hold sync. Although I won't guarantee it as I don't know your device. But worked a treat here and for others.
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 19:27, 07 January 16Most people reviewing these things have no idea of what they are looking at and are generally inept. I have 3 or 4 of these devices around here. All rubbish. All had good reviews..... good reviews from imbeciles it seems.
Well would you recommend buying a Framemeister then?
I'll need some japan->european scart converter cable then too I suppose.
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 19:27, 07 January 16And yes, adding 1.5v or putting a cap on the sync line seems to solve problems where a device won't hold sync. Although I won't guarantee it as I don't know your device. But worked a treat here and for others.
Hm yes, I suppose it makes sense that the device keeps searching for a signal, and doesn't know if it's getting an RGB signal because of a missing 1,5v on pin 16.
I'll get my hands on a cable with 1,5v on pin 16 then...
Stay tuned...
Quote from: mr_lou on 19:06, 07 January 16
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225)? Do you think I can fix the picture coming/going issue by adding 1,5v to the SCART in?
If yes, can I buy such a cable from you?
It depends why the picture is coming and going. If it's loosing sync, then the 1.5V or capacitor won't help. Does your TV have an OSD that says "SCART 2" or whatever when it detects a signal? Does this appear every time the picture comes back?
Bryce.
P.s. I don't really make cables. Ebay is flooded with them.
Quote from: Bryce on 21:17, 07 January 16
It dependswhy the picture is coming and going. If it's loosing sync, then the 1.5V or capacitor won't help.
Yes it will. It was what I demonstrably showed a couple of months back. My Plus worked but TV kept losing sync. Battery solved it.
Your TV wasn't loosing sync, it was having problems detecting which input to use. The battery has zero effect on the sync. It's connected to Pin 16, which is the input select pin -> Tells the TV whether it should display the Composite, S-Video or RGB signal of the SCART port. That's why I've asked mr_lou whether the OSD appears when the picture comes back, this would suggest that the input selection is the problem.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 22:05, 07 January 16
Your TV wasn't loosing sync, it was having problems detecting which input to use. The battery has zero effect on the sync. It's connected to Pin 16, which is the input select pin -> Tells the TV whether it should display the Composite, S-Video or RGB signal of the SCART port. That's why I've asked mr_lou whether the OSD appears when the picture comes back, this would suggest that the input selection is the problem.
Bryce.
Question of semantics but to the same end. Good explanation here but the bottom paragraph sums it up:
Composite video vs composite sync (https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/composite-video-vs-composite-sync)
Quote from: mr_lou on 19:45, 07 January 16
Well would you recommend buying a Framemeister then?
I'll need some japan->european scart converter cable then too I suppose.
No, I told you the cheapest and best capture option a while back. A 2nd hand high quality DVD recorder with component out. Pioneers are a good bet and are extremely tweakable (black level, white level, deinterlacing, DNR, etc). They'll give you a lovely clean live component signal which you can capture.
Yep Framemeisters are great but they cost a lot of money. You can sort yourself out with a good DVD recorder for a quarter of a Framemeister. Doesn't matter if the drive is broken etc. All you want is the signal processing side of the unit to be working.
That said I will get a Framemeister at some stage because less and less TV's have SCART and they are small and portable.
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 19:27, 07 January 16
Most people reviewing these things have no idea of what they are looking at and are generally inept. I have 3 or 4 of these devices around here. All rubbish. All had good reviews..... good reviews from imbeciles it seems.
Yet, you bought same rubbish for 3 or 4 times.. Hmm..
Quote from: dodogildo on 22:19, 07 January 16
Yet, you bought same rubbish for 3 or 4 times.. Hmm..
Yep, to test them. Anything wrong with that? Especially since none of them cost me the retail price.
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 22:10, 07 January 16
Question of semantics but to the same end. Good explanation here but the bottom paragraph sums it up:
Composite video vs composite sync (https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/composite-video-vs-composite-sync)
The CSync signal on the CPC is actually one of the best of any retro computer I know of (and I know many). It's extremely clean - very little noise, stable in both level and frequency and very close to the required standard. It definitely doesn't need a sync stripper like some consoles do and even then some won't even sync well when using one, such as the Spectrum +2/+3.
The battery fixes the TV, not the CPC :)
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 22:54, 07 January 16
The battery fixes the TV, not the CPC :)
Bryce.
I agree with regards to the original CPC's. Easy to capture from, super clean and stable picture that never gives me any issues.
But my 464 Plus seems to cause issues when there is a lot of white or with overscan modes both for the TV, and for my capture setup. Battery solved that.
And if Mr_Lou or anyone else want more details of what I am using, they should DM me as I can furnish them with model numbers, photos, settings for different machines etc so they can replicate it. I'd rather not do it in the thread with everyone and their mother chipping in. I've got a setup, it works, that's it. :D
Yes, the Classics do seem to be better than the Plus, but they vary too. I've seen both very good and very questionable output from Pluses.
Definitely agree that a DVD player is the best converter, but be careful when you are buying. The older ones are excellent, but the latest low cost DVD players can be as bad as some TVs for being fussy about the Sync signal.
Don't buy if you haven't had confirmation that the model works well. What models have you tested? Have you tried the Sony DVP SR370B ? You can buy them new for €38!
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 23:28, 07 January 16
Don't buy if you haven't had confirmation that the model works well. What models have you tested? Have you tried the Sony DVP SR370B ? You can buy them new for €38!
Bryce.
Pioneer LX60D works very well. For a start it allows you to turn the automatic gain control off. The sister models should also work well. Pioneer are a high end brand and allow you to adjust settings that are usually done automatically in other units. Stuff like automatic gain controls are bad as they can vary the picture brightness and you will have no control over it.
Quote from: Bryce on 21:17, 07 January 16It depends why the picture is coming and going. If it's loosing sync, then the 1.5V or capacitor won't help. Does your TV have an OSD that says "SCART 2" or whatever when it detects a signal? Does this appear every time the picture comes back?
The cable works fine on all of the TV's I've used it with so far.
It's the SCART->HDMI converter that does this can't-make-up-its-mind thingy.
There's no display on the converter, but it's connected to the TV and the OSD of the TV does display "HDMI2" (and "720p" or "1080p" depending on my choice on the converter) whenever the picture comes back.
Quote from: Bryce on 21:17, 07 January 16P.s. I don't really make cables. Ebay is flooded with them.
Yes, but there doesn't seem to be any Amstrad CPC SCART cables with the 1,5v added.
Anyway, I've asked retrocomputershack to make me one.
I noticed something in the description of his cable though:
"Additional components, resistors, are fitted inside the Scart plug, to ensure the video signals, are at the correct levels".
Amstrad CPC 464 & 6128 High Quality GOLD PLATED RGB Scart Cable TV Video Lead | (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Amstrad-CPC-464-6128-High-Quality-GOLD-PLATED-RGB-Scart-Cable-TV-Video-Lead-/261898189777)
I haven't added any resistors inside my own cables. How "important" is this in your opinion?EDIT: I read the wiki about the resistors.
The problem with most of the cheap converters, whether they convert to VGA, HDMI or whatever, is that they use digital sampling to sync the input. This means that the device waits for the first valid VSync signal and then just samples at 15Khz relative to this. If your computer is putting out a 14.9Khz or 15.1Khz VSync, then the first few 100 frames will still be within the "window" that the device samples, but then the two devices go out of sync and the converter needs to find the VSync signal again. This is the classic flicker that happens every few seconds and there's no easy way to get around it.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 09:18, 08 January 16
The problem with most of the cheap converters, whether they convert to VGA, HDMI or whatever, is that they use digital sampling to sync the input. This means that the device waits for the first valid VSync signal and then just samples at 15Khz relative to this. If your computer is putting out a 14.9Khz or 15.1Khz VSync, then the first few 100 frames will still be within the "window" that the device samples, but then the two devices go out of sync and the converter needs to find the VSync signal again. This is the classic flicker that happens every few seconds and there's no easy way to get around it.
No easy way? Didn't you just say that it would be fixed by adding a 100uF capacitor?
What about a Framemeister then? Would that work fine?
Is there any SCART->HDMI device at all that you can give your blessing?
No. The capacitor helps if the receiving device (TV or Converter) is having troubles deciding what SCART input to sample (Composite/S-Video/RGB). The cheap converters and modern TVs have the problem that the need a very stable and exact 15Khz Sync. These are two completely different problems, that unfortunately get confused and both called "sync problems", although only one is really a sync problem.
If the computer isn't outputting exactly 15Khz, then digital sampling may have problems. This never happened on analogue CRTs because they don't sample the Vsync, they use it directly to drive the CRT.
Bryce.
As my new 48" 4k TV has no scart input anyway I see me buying a framemeister next month, to allow me to use my original Xbox with coinops and the various retro consoles I have now bought again including the gx4000.
Will let you know how I get on with it soon.
Quote from: Bryce on 10:47, 08 January 16
No. The capacitor helps if the receiving device (TV or Converter) is having troubles deciding what SCART input to sample (Composite/S-Video/RGB). The cheap converters and modern TVs have the problem that the need a very stable and exact 15Khz Sync. These are two completely different problems, that unfortunately get confused and both called "sync problems", although only one is really a sync problem.
If the computer isn't outputting exactly 15Khz, then digital sampling may have problems. This never happened on analogue CRTs because they don't sample the Vsync, they use it directly to drive the CRT.
Oh....
Well ok then....
Does anyone know what the ultimate solution is then, to convert an Amstrad CPC video signal into an HDMI signal?Is the Framemeister the ultimate solution?
I'm not seeing any clear answer on this.
Is it because no one knows?
What about a modded GBS-8200 and a VGA->HDMI converter? That ought to work well I think? I don't know how the GBS8200 deals with advanced effects though. Perhaps the cheapest way to achieve it, much less than a framemeister, but more work to mod it (add a PI-zero, arduino or similar and possibly have to reduce RAM frequency to remove "speckles").
I just found in another thread that @TotO (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=290) bought the same SCART->HDMI converter as I did (although a lot cheaper than I did) and experienced the same sync problems.
RGB adapter to SVideo/Composite for CPC based on AD724 (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/amstrad-cpc-hardware/rgb-adapter-to-svideocomposite-for-cpc-based-on-ad724/msg92747/#msg92747)
In that thread @Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225) also says you need to stick with CRT in order to keep all CRT tricks.
This makes me wonder.
What if I plug the Amstrad CPC into a CRT TV, and then connect another SCART cable from the same TV to the SCART->HDMI converter, and then connect that HDMI output to a the "Game Capture" device that does the recording. I know the CRT displays everything the way it should. The question is if a SCART output from such a CRT TV screen is better than the SCART output from the CPC - or if it's just a pass-through thingy....
In most cases they were justr pass-thru unfortunately. As chinnyhill said, the best solution is an early DVD Player that converts the signal from SCART to Component.
Bryce.
Quote from: mr_lou on 13:15, 08 January 16
This makes me wonder.
What if I plug the Amstrad CPC into a CRT TV, and then connect another SCART cable from the same TV to the SCART->HDMI converter, and then connect that HDMI output to a the "Game Capture" device that does the recording. I know the CRT displays everything the way it should. The question is if a SCART output from such a CRT TV screen is better than the SCART output from the CPC - or if it's just a pass-through thingy....
You are overthinking this. That won't work.
Go and get a good second hand DVD recorder. A Pioneer. If you can get the specific model I listed it will work. But I suspect all Pioneers will.
Hm, well, there's a used Pioneer LX61D for sale at the moment, but he wants 250 euro for it.
Doesn't a Framemeister cost almost the same?
And why won't anyone tell me whether a Framemeister is the holy grail or not?
Is a DVD Recorder really a better option than a Framemeister?
EDIT: I want to use my "Game Capture" device to record the video. I don't have a capture-card in my PC. And a DVD Recorder doesn't have a HDMI out, does it? So I'll have to use the SCART->HDMI upscaler anyway in order to use my "Game Capture" device to record the video?
Quote from: mr_lou on 12:02, 08 January 16
Oh....
Well ok then....
Does anyone know what the ultimate solution is then, to convert an Amstrad CPC video signal into an HDMI signal?
Is the Framemeister the ultimate solution?
I'm not seeing any clear answer on this.
Is it because no one knows?
That's why I said DM me so I could be sure you'd actually get the information.
The Framemeister is great *BUT* it is very expensive. Don't be fooled by the Yen price, everyone I know who has one got stung for import duty and handling as well. I see the seller now offers an option where you can pre-pay the import duty which I'd strongly recommend.
On top of the Framemeister you'll need cables and a lot of time fiddling around with it (and leaning the difference between Japansese and European SCART etc). I think it now comes with English firmware but it used to always default to Japanese. English overlays for the remote can also be purchased. Probably best to set aside about £300 for a Framemeister and everything you'll need (£250 for the unit, and another £50 for cables and a power supply). That's about 400 Euros. You can of course try and get lucky and avoid the import taxes (although as others have found out that can end up costing you far more) and simply use the Japanese PSU with an adaptor (something I'd not recommend).
I've given you the cheapest solution for recording. A high quality second hand DVD recorder to act as a pass through. The Pioneer model I mentioned gives extremely high quality output, you can adjust all aspects of the picture and it has standard RGB SCART, S-Video and composite in and can output analogue component video which means minimum conversion artefacts (as RGB is so close to component anyway).
If you are insisting on capturing HDMI then you'll have to use the Framemiester as obviously DVD recorders will often have the copy protection set on the HDMI output and given the struggles you appear to be having with analogue video, you certainly won't be able to strip the copy protection out.
Quote from: mr_lou on 14:13, 08 January 16
Hm, well, there's a used Pioneer LX61D for sale at the moment, but he wants 250 euro for it.
Doesn't a Framemeister cost almost the same?
And why won't anyone tell me whether a Framemeister is the holy grail or not?
Is a DVD Recorder really a better option than a Framemeister?
Mine was just under £100.
None of this is cheap or easy. I don't think you realise quite how much blood, sweat and money it took to get a capture setup that works for about 20 different machines let alone just a CPC!
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 14:16, 08 January 16If you are insisting on capturing HDMI then you'll have to use the Framemiester
Alright. Yes, I'm insisting on using my "Game Capture" device.
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 14:20, 08 January 16None of this is cheap or easy. I don't think you realise quite how much blood, sweat and money it took to get a capture setup that works for about 20 different machines let alone just a CPC!
I was actually set on just recording from emulators, but as I need to create videos from both the Philips Videopac G7000, the Amstrad CPC and the Amiga - and only the Amiga emulator produced a decent result, then I started looking into recording from the real machine.
But since I'm running Linux on a fairly old computer, getting a capture card working (fast enough too) is most likely not an option.
I also prefer being able to record from anywhere, rather than needing all devices right next to my computer.
So I guess it's gonna be the Framemeister then... gonna look further into it.
Quote from: mr_lou on 14:56, 08 January 16
Alright. Yes, I'm insisting on using my "Game Capture" device.
I was actually set on just recording from emulators, but as I need to create videos from both the Philips Videopac G7000, the Amstrad CPC and the Amiga - and only the Amiga emulator produced a decent result, then I started looking into recording from the real machine.
But since I'm running Linux on a fairly old computer, getting a capture card working (fast enough too) is most likely not an option.
I also prefer being able to record from anywhere, rather than needing all devices right next to my computer.
So I guess it's gonna be the Framemeister then... gonna look further into it.
Well if you are happy with emulators why on earth not use screen capture? You don't have to use the emulators own capture.
No utilities available for Linux? Full 50fps capture with audio is usually fairly trivial.
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 15:07, 08 January 16Well if you are happy with emulators why on earth not use screen capture? You don't have to use the emulators own capture.
No utilities available for Linux? Full 50fps capture with audio is usually fairly trivial.
Because I can't get a decent result.
Odessey II emulator O2EM produces 60 fps, so I obviously set my screen capture program to 60 fps too, but it still drops frames. Logically because there's no sync between the emulator and the screen capture program. And also, O2EM doesn't reproduce the real machine that great. It places sprites slightly off, for example.
Further more I didn't use an Odessey II. I used a Philips Videopac G7000 which only produces 50 fps, so I'd rather have a 50 fps video.
I didn't say I was
happy with emulators. Just said I was set on using emulators, meaning I had accepted to use emulators because recording from the real device seemed too complex.
I didn't know it was almost just as complex recording from emulators.
Quote from: mr_lou on 15:45, 08 January 16
Because I can't get a decent result.
Odessey II emulator O2EM produces 60 fps, so I obviously set my screen capture program to 60 fps too, but it still drops frames. Logically because there's no sync between the emulator and the screen capture program. And also, O2EM doesn't reproduce the real machine that great. It places sprites slightly off, for example.
Further more I didn't use an Odessey II. I used a Philips Videopac G7000 which only produces 50 fps, so I'd rather have a 50 fps video.
I don't know what setup you are using, but run the emulator in a window at its native size and then capture just that window (you can upscale it when editing). This will reduce the CPU overhead and should give you a better result
Quote from: chinnyhill10 on 16:21, 08 January 16I don't know what setup you are using, but run the emulator in a window at its native size and then capture just that window (you can upscale it when editing). This will reduce the CPU overhead and should give you a better result
That's exactly what I did. And that's only 160x200 pixels (for O2EM), but it still drops frames.
As far as expenses go, "8bit Stories" has already cost me a lot more than I thought it would. Various blu-ray players has been bought for testing purposes, and I can't even count how many BD-R discs I've used while testing.
Obviously a Framemeister wasn't exactly on the list of things I expected to buy, but I have to get one since I want to have these videos in the project...
I'm doing what I have to do in order to complete this project.
I've learned that my "Game Capture" unit actually supports recording from a composite signal. Tested briefly with my Amiga.
So I'm looking into getting a DVD Recorder afterall.
This one is rather cheap. Does anyone happen to know whether it likes the CPC or not?
KISS Recorder, KISS DP-558-... – dba.dk – Køb og Salg af Nyt og Brugt (http://www.dba.dk/kiss-recorder-kiss-dp-558/id-1013942389/)
Ah screw it.
1 XRGB-Mini Framemeister on its way now.
Quote from: CraigsBar on 11:10, 08 January 16
As my new 48" 4k TV has no scart input anyway I see me buying a framemeister next month, to allow me to use my original Xbox with coinops and the various retro consoles I have now bought again including the gx4000.
Will let you know how I get on with it soon.
No
I will let
you know. ;)
Quote from: mr_lou on 14:01, 10 January 16
Ah screw it.
1 XRGB-Mini Framemeister on its way now.
No I will let you know. ;)
Can you let me know where you bought it... EBay?
Quote from: CraigsBar on 14:02, 10 January 16Can you let me know where you bought it... EBay?
EU Tax Free: XRGB-mini Framemeister Compact Up Scaler Unit | Buy EU Tax Free: (https://solarisjapan.com/collections/micomsoft/products/eu-tax-free-xrgb-mini-framemeister-compact-up-scaler-unit)
Also bought the EuroSCART cable and english remote control overlay from Worlds No. 1 for Retro Gaming Cables (https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk)
@Bryce (http://www.cpcwiki.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=225)
As far as I can tell, the XRGB-Mini Framemeister wants 5 volts.
Would you mind investigating whether I can use the same power adapter as I'm using for a CPC? I.e. is the polarity the same? Plug size the same?
I wouldn't want to risk frying this expensive device....
EDIT: As far as I can see, polarity is the same, but the size of the plug isn't.
Yup, I found this:
XRGB mini Framemeister Power Supply - mmmonkey (http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/xrgb-mini-framemeister-power-supply/)
It's the same polarity, but a completely different size connector. Two things to be careful of:
- Some people in Europe have reported that theirs arrived with a Japanese 110V PSU - Don't plug this into a 220V socket, it will make a very loud bang!
- The original PSU supplies 2.3A! I've no idea whether the Framemeister actually needs all of this, but be sure that the supply you use can supply at least close to that.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 09:47, 11 January 16- Some people in Europe have reported that theirs arrived with a Japanese 110V PSU - Don't plug this into a 220V socket, it will make a very loud bang!
What if I like very loud bangs?
Quote from: Bryce on 09:47, 11 January 16- The original PSU supplies 2.3A! I've no idea whether the Framemeister actually needs all of this, but be sure that the supply you use can supply at least close to that.
Yes, I found that too, but I also read somewhere else that newer versions are shipped with a 2.0A PSU.
In any case, I have one that can give 5 volt 3,6A here, so I'll probably use that one, if there's a 4mm plug that fits it. (It's one of those multi-ones).
Thanks!
As for the SCART adapter cables..... I bought the one with a CSYNC. Should I have gotten the passive one instead?
Quote from: mr_lou on 12:11, 11 January 16
What if I like very loud bangs?
Then buy a bag of the electrolytic capacitors and connect them to a 9V battery the wrong way around (from a safe distance).
As for the SCART cable, the CPC needs CSync, but I don't know what the wiring of the two options are, so I can't say.
Bryce.
Quote from: mr_lou on 14:56, 08 January 16
But since I'm running Linux on a fairly old computer, getting a capture card working (fast enough too) is most likely not an option.
I also prefer being able to record from anywhere, rather than needing all devices right next to my computer.
I know you've already committed now, but I've had analog capture working perfectly on an AMD K6-II (333MHz) under linux without much effort (using a PCI card), and on a 600Mhz laptop with a USB analog card, and I didn't choose the cards specifically for linux I just happened to have them and they "just worked" - so I don't think this isn't very difficult to set up on linux and doesn't need much processing power at all. You just might want to use a faster computer to do compression afterwards because, at least for the cards I used, they could only do MPEG-2 in hardware IIRC. Any machine in the last 10 years ought to be able to do that too, though.
Having said all that, the framemeister does look a nice piece of kit and will make a nice set up too - and personally I don't want to have to connect my consoles/retro computers through a PC.
XRGB-Mini Framemeister arrived today!
Only took a few minutes to change settings to give the picture I want (zoomed to show only 240 scanlines in order to produce a great 720p picture with emulated scanlines).
I had no idea what I was doing, but simply by experimenting with the settings and see what happened, it was surprisingly fast I managed to get the right settings.
Gotta say it looks amazing. I had no idea our TV could even display 50 frames per second. Just looks awesome when everything is as smooth as it should be.
My video-recorder unit can't keep up though. It drops frames. I'm assuming it's because the USB stick that it's recording on isn't fast enough. Will try to obtain a faster one.
More updates later.
Something "funny":
My Hauppauge Pocket recorder won't recognize a signal if SYNC_MODE is set to ON on the Framemeister.
I have to set SYNC_MODE to OFF before I can record anything.
I would have thought it would be the other way around.
Had some time to do more testing today.
The Framemeister is brilliant. Awesome crisp 50 fps picture on my Sony LCD.
But the Hauppauge HD PVR Rocket (for recording video) is a bit disappointing.
The CPC outputs a 50 hz RGB signal which the Framemeister receives fine and outputs a 720@50p signal.
But the CPC's output isn't really a 50hz signal. It's actually a 50.08hz signal. The result is a stutter every 13th second or so.
Luckily this can be fixed using the Framemeister's SYNC setting though. Just set SYNC to AUTO. (The other option is OFF... so AUTO = ON).
But here's the first problem with the Hauppauge HD PVR Rocket: It doesn't recognize any input signal as soon as I put SYNC to AUTO on the Framemeister.
Recording a video with SYNC = OFF seems to go fine - but when playing back the video on the PC it's very jerky and chunky - frankly useless.
Googling a bit for this reveals some posts where people blames the jerkiness on the high bitrate. But when I convert to a lower bitrate, the jerkiness is still present.
I've downloaded a newer firmware which I'll try installing next and hope it results in a serious improvement.
Well, the Hauppauge HD PVR Rocket is out of the game it seems.
I received a reply from support today telling me what I already knew: That a framerate of 50.08fps isn't possible at this time.
Why are replies from whatever-support department is always useless? I knew that it wasn't possible. That's why I wrote the mail to them. How about answering my question instead: Is there any chance they'd make it possible in a future firmware?
So it looks like my only chance with the Hauppauge HD PVR Rocket is to hack the firmware, do some reverse engineering and fix it myself. Fat chance.
The firmware can be downloaded here in the form of a jedi.img file, in case we have a skilled haxor who's interested:
Support: HD PVR Rocket (http://www.hauppauge.com/site/support/support_hdpvr_rocket.html)
Either that, or else I'll have to accept a lost frame every 13th second. I don't see myself accepting that.
Anyway, since I suspected I'd get a useless reply like that, I already ordered its competitor a few days ago; the AVerMedia Live Gamer Pocket.
So I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this device will do better. I know I probably shouldn't count on it, but we'll see.
There's also the new Elgato HD60 available. But despite being newer, this device actually supports a lot less input signals than the AVerMedia LGP and Hauppauge HD PVR Rocket does. There's no support for a 50fps signal. So that device is not even an option.
To be continued....
I doubt it would be easy to add 50.08hz with a software or firmware update. The Framemeister is most likely just a big FPGA with an external clock that is being divided to derive the required frequency. Odd frequencies outside the real quotients of the base clock are extremely difficult to achieve.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 09:33, 28 January 16
I doubt it would be easy to add 50.08hz with a software or firmware update. The Framemeister is most likely just a big FPGA with an external clock that is being divided to derive the required frequency. Odd frequencies outside the real quotients of the base clock are extremely difficult to achieve.
Never give up. Never surrender.
AVerMedia LGP arrived just now. More updates soon.
P.S.: The Framemeister is not the problem. It can output 50fps or 50.08fps no problem. And the TV receives and displays both no problem.
In the Hauppauge it might be a little easier and they could possibly widen the "window" for sensing the Sync signal, however, this would only reduce the problem, not remove it completely. To remove it completely the Hauppauge would need to re-Sync and this might not be possible, depending on how they did the architecture.
Bryce.
Quote from: Bryce on 11:22, 28 January 16
In the Hauppauge it might be a little easier and they could possibly widen the "window" for sensing the Sync signal, however, this would only reduce the problem, not remove it completely. To remove it completely the Hauppauge would need to re-Sync and this might not be possible, depending on how they did the architecture.
Be a little easier compared to what?
Re-sync? Even when the syncing is done by the Framemeister?
Easier than changing things on the Framemeister.
Yes, the Framemeister is creating the sync signal, but the Hauppauge needs to synchronize its sampling to this signal, which seems to be where your setup is having issues. Depending on what method Hauppauge used to do this will decide how good the result is and whether is skips frames.
Bryce.
Well, good news and bad news.
Bad news first.
The AVerMedia LGP is really disappointing.
Looked promising at first though, in that it passed the 50.08fps signal through fine. The Hauppauge didn't do this.
But all recordings are 0 bytes.
They also seem to be saved in TS format, which might not be a problem, but it annoys me right now. (May turn out to be a good thing later of course).
Upgrading firmware requires a Windows machine or a Mac. You can't just copy the firmware onto SD card like you can with the Hauppauge HD PVR Rocket. That means you have to first download and install a driver for this thing, and then download and install the firmware upgrade. No no no AVerMedia...
Upgrading firmware didn't help the 0 bytes issue.
Tried another SD card. Also tried re-formatting. I of course format according to their own guidelines, even using their own format-tool.
So this device is just disappointing. I'll have to write support I guess.
Meanwhile, I noticed there's actually a beta firmware 42 available for the Hauppauge HD PVR Rocket. And this seems to have fixed the problem! :)
That's right! I am seemingly able to record smooth and nice from my Amstrad CPC now. At least everything points in that direction. I have yet to burn a blu-ray disc to make absolutely sure though.
Quote from: mr_lou on 17:01, 20 January 16
(zoomed to show only 240 scanlines in order to produce a great 720p picture with emulated scanlines).
Photo, please? :)
Quote from: Gryzor on 14:36, 28 January 16Photo, please? :)
I was thinking of uploading a video to YouTube once find the time to create one. :)
Please do!
After all the odyssey you've been through, it's the big prize 8)
I need some CPC demo where a lot of things are happening on the screen to the beat of the music, in order to make sure everything is sync'ed correctly in the recording.
Anyone suggest me a demo or game that has a lot of audio/video stuff happening together.
You know, e.g. some VU-meter showing the music channels or something.
EDIT: Oh, and runnable on a CPC464, since my CPC6128 isn't working at the moment....
EDIT2: Something impressive for YouTube. ;)
See attachment below. Absolutely unimpressive anywhere, but it has some fat VU-meters and runs on 64K.
Alright.
Here's a recording of Delty - not the full quality one though. Bitrate reduced a little. But still 50 fps.
The actual recording happens at 51,43fps for some reason. (I thought it was supposed to be 50,08fps for the CPC).
I then convert these 51,43fps to 50fps in order to be compatible with blu-ray.
The audio that has been recorded then has to be stretched a bit to match the video.
The result is like this:
http://www.dewfall.dk/Delty.mp4 (http://www.dewfall.dk/Delty.mp4)
(Can you play it? It plays fine in VLC here, but when I try the link from my browser it keeps saying the file is damaged. Tried uploading it twice using two different FTP clients. Downloading first works).
Recording is 8 minutes long.
To me it looks like the audio is a bit ahead at first, and everything matches fine in the end.
What do you think?
The scanline emulation is from the Framemeister, and not very CPC'ish. I won't be using the Framemeister's scanline emulation in the videos.
On Chrome, I can listen to the music but no video.
If I download it, Quicktime complains of an invalid sample description (whatever it means), and VLC plays fine.
Quote from: robcfg on 16:10, 29 January 16
On Chrome, I can listen to the music but no video.
If I download it, Quicktime complains of an invalid sample description (whatever it means), and VLC plays fine.
Kinda weird. Haven't experienced that before with anything saved from Kdenlive.
Will see if it a reoccuring thing.
firmware 43 and beta 45 released for hauppauge rocket hd recorder :P